The future of the 'outlier' satellites

[soetart]

With MPEG-4 HD starting to become a reality, it won't be long before MPEG-2 HD channels are shut down.

I was wondering if anyone knew D*'s plans for the 'outlier' satellites at 110 and 119 once HD content is removed from them?

I was wondering whether or not it would be possible to move all 'mainstream' content onto the 99-101-103 birds and strictly use the outliers for niche programming like internationals? Such a setup would allow D* (theoretically) to use a smaller dish that (also theoretically) would be easier to setup since it would only need to align with three locations within 4 degress of each other rather than 5 locations over 20 degrees.

Just a thought,
Bill

[borghe]

with DirecTV having transponder licenses at those locations and eventually (at least) 16.5M homes equipped with dishes that can see all 7 locations, it would be crazy for them to abandon any of their slots for niche programming. Yes they will move to MPEG-4 entirely probably within the next 2-3 years, but even after that happens I wouldn't for a second think they'll move to a smaller dish or abandon any old slots.

no, they'll use that for additional programming that will likely be available at the time.

[LameLefty]

with DirecTV having transponder licenses at those locations and eventually (at least) 16.5M homes equipped with dishes that can see all 7 locations, it would be crazy for them to abandon any of their slots for niche programming. Yes they will move to MPEG-4 entirely probably within the next 2-3 years, but even after that happens I wouldn't for a second think they'll move to a smaller dish or abandon any old slots.

no, they'll use that for additional programming that will likely be available at the time.

It's those "additional future services" I keep hearing brief mentions of that intrigue me.

[Dr. Booda]

Is there any technical limitation for the 110 & 119 satellites in regards to mpeg4 broadcasting or is it an easy transition from mpeg2?

[LameLefty]

Is there any technical limitation for the 110 & 119 satellites in regards to mpeg4 broadcasting or is it an easy transition from mpeg2?

They are Ku band satellites which means transponders that are narrower than comparable Ka transponders; the upside is that the Ku band is much more resistant to rain fade. But as far as the CONTENT of those signals, it could be Morse code if the receiver understood it. That is the key - there are still millions of MPEG2-only receivers out there and until they go away entirely, much content (especially at 101) will remain MPEG2.

[soetart]

with DirecTV having transponder licenses at those locations and eventually (at least) 16.5M homes equipped with dishes that can see all 7 locations, it would be crazy for them to abandon any of their slots for niche programming. Yes they will move to MPEG-4 entirely probably within the next 2-3 years, but even after that happens I wouldn't for a second think they'll move to a smaller dish or abandon any old slots.

no, they'll use that for additional programming that will likely be available at the time.

Thing is, not all D* subscribers can currently see all 7 locations. I don't have figures in front of me but the amount of people with 101 only dishes has to make up a pretty sizable portion of the population. D* had access to 110 and 119 when I first joined in 2000 but back then you only needed the oval dish if you wanted the Para Todos package. A '101+' dish with most of the programming could allow for smaller dishes and installations in places that can't clear 20 degrees of the sky.

Bill

[carl6]

There has been some talk that they may move various locals off 72.5 to either 110 and/or 119 once the bandwidth becomes available.

Carl

[Dr. Booda]

They are Ku band satellites which means transponders that are narrower than comparable Ka transponders; the upside is that the Ku band is much more resistant to rain fade. But as far as the CONTENT of those signals, it could be Morse code if the receiver understood it. That is the key - there are still millions of MPEG2-only receivers out there and until they go away entirely, much content (especially at 101) will remain MPEG2.

LL,

Thanks for the knowledge. So let me see if I understand the way the system works. From a content perspective, millions of mpeg2 receivers would have to be replaced first (and dishes) to allow for any mpeg4 programming on the old satellites. That could take a while.

Even though the old Ku transponders have a narrower bandwidth, can they broadcast full 1080p bandwidth?

[LameLefty]

LL,

Thanks for the knowledge. So let me see if I understand the way the system works. From a content perspective, millions of mpeg2 receivers would have to be replaced first (and dishes) to allow for any mpeg4 programming on the old satellites. That could take a while.

Even though the old Ku transponders have a narrower bandwidth, can they broadcast full 1080p bandwidth?

Of course, NOBODY is broadcasting 1080p. 1080i, yes they are, but not p.

That said, I haven't personally done the math, but you can certainly use the bandwidth for a lot more of ANY content encoding it with MPEG4 than you can get in the same space using MPEG2.

[JDubbs413]

Well I have some pretty good information that 101 actually needs replaced sometime in the next few years. I think that will become a priority.

[LameLefty]

Well I have some pretty good information that 101 actually needs replaced sometime in the next few years. I think that will become a priority.

The info I have (which may be outdated) is that there are three sats currently at 101 - Directv 4S, Directv 8 and Directv 9S. The oldest is 4S, launched in 2001. If it (or any of them) need replacing sooner than the next 5 or 6 years then there's been hardware failures rather than normal end-of-life propellant or power issues.

[JDubbs413]

The info I have (which may be outdated) is that there are three sats currently at 101 - Directv 4S, Directv 8 and Directv 9S. The oldest is 4S, launched in 2001. If it (or any of them) need replacing sooner than the next 5 or 6 years then there's been hardware failures rather than normal end-of-life propellant or power issues.

I can't remember exactly what this person told me (is a technician for DirecTV actually a supervisor) but it was more than normal wear and tear.

[djwool]

There has been some talk that they may move various locals off 72.5 to either 110 and/or 119 once the bandwidth becomes available.

Carl

That's the rumor I heard from our local installer. Vacate the 72.5 and eliminate the second dish requirement.

[drx792]

hmmm IIRC in Tom's satellite guide sticky he said there was a D13 satellite getting ready to be licensed to start building on it that was to be for the 101. I think it also stated that D13 would have the bandwidth for everything currently in the Ku Band.

EDIT: No i was wrong with some facts there

Here is Tom's post about D13

D13, Callsign S2693
While not Ka-band, it is part of the immediate DIRECTV future. Requests have been filed and approved with the FCC for replacing D5 at the 110° orbital slot with a new satellite, D13. The milestone requirements for D13 include:
Contract to build: by November 16, 2007
Build completion: by November 16, 2010
Launch and operation: by November 16, 2012.

While DIRECTV is licensed for only 3 DBS channels at that location, to allow flexibility and redundancy across their satellite fleet, D13 will be built to handle all 16 even DBS channels. (Ku band)

I'm sure we'll see a press release this year announcing the contract award.

[Christopher Gould]

With MPEG-4 HD starting to become a reality, it won't be long before MPEG-2 HD channels are shut down.

I was wondering if anyone knew D*'s plans for the 'outlier' satellites at 110 and 119 once HD content is removed from them?

I was wondering whether or not it would be possible to move all 'mainstream' content onto the 99-101-103 birds and strictly use the outliers for niche programming like internationals? Such a setup would allow D* (theoretically) to use a smaller dish that (also theoretically) would be easier to setup since it would only need to align with three locations within 4 degress of each other rather than 5 locations over 20 degrees.

Just a thought,
Bill

Dish probably couldn't get much smaller do to the KA 2 degree spacing. Need the tighter focus than the KU 9 degree spacing.

[Tom Robertson]

They are Ku band satellites which means transponders that are narrower than comparable Ka transponders; the upside is that the Ku band is much more resistant to rain fade. But as far as the CONTENT of those signals, it could be Morse code if the receiver understood it. That is the key - there are still millions of MPEG2-only receivers out there and until they go away entirely, much content (especially at 101) will remain MPEG2.Actually, Ku is wider, not narrower. That is why the new dishes come with the much tighter fine tune mechanism. :)
Is there any technical limitation for the 110 & 119 satellites in regards to mpeg4 broadcasting or is it an easy transition from mpeg2?No technical reason that I'm aware of but...
with DirecTV having transponder licenses at those locations and eventually (at least) 16.5M homes equipped with dishes that can see all 7 locations, it would be crazy for them to abandon any of their slots for niche programming. Yes they will move to MPEG-4 entirely probably within the next 2-3 years, but even after that happens I wouldn't for a second think they'll move to a smaller dish or abandon any old slots.

no, they'll use that for additional programming that will likely be available at the time.
According to commonly quoted numbers, there are 40M receivers that would need to be swapped out before MPEG4 could replace the current MPEG2 streams. Since new models of MPEG2 only receivers are still being produced and MPEG4 chips are still significantly more expensive than MPEG2, I don't think we'll even see the start of such a transition for 2-3 years. The first sign will be when there are no more MPEG2 receivers or when we see the first MPEG2/4 SD receivers.

Then the clock will start on the transition, at that it I think it will take 5 years.

The other reason I don't think it will happen soon is that MPEG4 SD does not buy the kind of bandwidth savings that HD does. It would be cheaper to put up another satellite (for which DIRECTV has licenses) than to transition all the STB that are out there.

Lastly, there are two D13 satellite requests in the FCC. The one that LameLefty quoted and a replacement for 110° or 119°. (New satellites are built for multiple uses.). I think its first role will be replacement for D5 at 110°.

Oh yeah, one more thought. My understanding is the lease on 72.5° will probably not be renewed, all the SD locals will be on the Ka satellites. 95° as a wholly owned license will likely maintained as the international programming.

Cheers,
Tom

[tkrandall]

I agree with the OP, I would like all mainstream SD and HD programming to come from 99/101/103. Too many line of sight issues for the low sight angles we in the east have for 110 and 119 that eliminates a lot of people from being able to even consider D* (or E*) due to having trees, etc in the way. The 20 degree view anlge also makes it difficult for many to find a spot that can see all locations. I have one and only one sight on my property that can see all three (99/101/103, 110, and 119), and fortunately it is on one corner of my porch roof. But it's a mounting spot about 5 foot wide for sight tolerance, else I could not see 119. I barely clear 110 and the large oak is only getting bigger. I will probably lose 110 in a few years or sooner and may lose 119 due to the gap between the trees closing in that I presently shoot to get it.

In contrast I can easily get 99/101/103 from several locations on my roof.

[LameLefty]

Thanks for the correction, Tom. My mistake. :)

[Tom Robertson]

Thanks for the correction, Tom. My mistake. :)

You make so few, you do so very well, you are a great resource!

Cheers,
Tom

[soetart]

Oh yeah, one more thought. My understanding is the lease on 72.5° will probably not be renewed, all the SD locals will be on the Ka satellites. 95° as a wholly owned license will likely maintained as the international programming.

Cheers,
Tom

Ka SD locals?! Wouldn't that entail a pretty significant box swapout of it's own?

To me, it would be more reasonable to simply move the 72.5 locals to 110/119 and keep them Ku.

IDEALLY :sure: once all markets have HD locals you could downconvert that signal to supply SD customers with their locals which would mean the vast majority would only need to see 99-101-103. If 110 and 119 had the capacity you could move the Internationals there and ditch the seperate (and large) 95 dish.