RG59 Cable vs RG6 cable?

[Steve Robertson]

I just got off the phone with tech support asking about what I consider low signal strength. One suggestion he has was that if you have rg59 cable it could be a problem as oppossed to the RG6.

Any comments from anyone out there on this?

I think I may in fact have RG59 cable running from my multiswitch to the the box but not sure.

[ChicagoTC]

"RG 6 or, "RG 59" should be printed on it in small letters.

RG-59 has a small center conductor, a smaller foam dielectric and single shield.

RG-6 has a larger center conductor, a larger foam dielectric and double or quad shield.

The result is that RG-6 has less signal loss than RG-59.

[Steve Robertson]

"RG 6 or, "RG 59" should be printed on it in small letters.

RG-59 has a small center conductor, a smaller foam dielectric and single shield.

RG-6 has a larger center conductor, a larger foam dielectric and double or quad shield.

The result is that RG-6 has less signal loss than RG-59.

So it could be causing my weak signal readings I take it?

I will have to check when I get home to see what I have.

[veryoldschool]

I just got off the phone with tech support asking about what I consider low signal strength. One suggestion he has was that if you have rg59 cable it could be a problem as oppossed to the RG6.

Any comments from anyone out there on this?

I think I may in fact have RG59 cable running from my multiswitch to the the box but not sure.
RG-59 is more for OTA signals.
RG-6 has a larger center conductor and has less loss at higher frequencies.
What does this mean:
1) the LNB power from the receiver to the dish will be better.
2) the RF loss from the dish to the receiver will be less.
Over short lengths this will not be a problem as much as over long cables runs.
Some can get away with bad cable while others can't.

[Steve Robertson]

Thanks for the replys. The cables are probably close to 30 ft in length that I have going from the swith to the receiver. I almost hope this is my problem although I get most transponders on 103b mid 80's and up but 1-7 last I checked was in the 70's

All other birds are in the 90's

[Tom Robertson]

RG-59 is more for OTA signals.
RG-6 has a larger center conductor and has less loss at higher frequencies.
What does this mean:
1) the LNB power from the receiver to the dish will be better.
2) the RF loss from the dish to the receiver will be less.
Over short lengths this will not be a problem as much as over long cables runs.
Some can get away with bad cable while others can't.

VOS, isn't it also generally true that RG59 has even greater RF loss at the higher frequencies utilized by the Ka-hi transponders from the Spaceway satellites?

Cheers,
Tom

[Steve Robertson]

One other thing he mentioned was that RG11 would be the best to use?

[Tom Robertson]

RG11 is necessary only for very long runs >150' and or helpful for some direct burial situations. Otherwise it is too clostly for the normal use.

Cheers,
Tom

[ChicagoTC]

I guess in theory RG11 is the best, but unpractical for home installations. Very large and not very flexible. Unless your dish is 300' from your receivers don't waste your money.

[mattw]

I guess in theory RG11 is the best, but unpractical for home installations. Very large and not very flexible. Unless your dish is 300' from your receivers don't waste your money.

That and I don't recall seeing any RG11 connectors/tools at Home Depot.

[Steve Robertson]

Ok thanks guys as always a wealth of information on this forum.

[medic4jc7]

Don't make the mistake of installing the wrong coax cable in your home! RG-6 is the best cable for distributing signals from a rooftop antenna, cable TV service or satellite dish. Compare that with older RG-59 cable, which permits signal leakage due to its inferior shielding, and there's no comparison. In fact, with cable TV companies under increasing FCC pressure to contain signal leaks, it's possible that your service may be temporarily terminated if your home is scanned by a mysterious van moving slowly down the street.

These cables have an 18-gauge solid copper center conductor surrounded by a premium foam dielectric. The double-shielded coax cable (#8527 or #85216) has a foil wrap surrounded by braided 34-gauge aluminum wire. The quad-shield coax cable (#8528) has an additional layer of foil tape and braided wire to make it nearly impossible for stray signals to leave or enter the cable.

Both cables are UL Rated Class 2 for in-wall and in-ceiling use. Most cities in the U.S. require in-wall cable to be Class 2 or higher to meet electrical codes. If the cable is not UL rated, it shouldn't be used in walls.

[veryoldschool]

VOS, isn't it also generally true that RG59 has even greater RF loss at the higher frequencies utilized by the Ka-hi transponders from the Spaceway satellites?

Cheers,
Tom
"RG-6 has a larger center conductor and has less loss at higher frequencies."

Should I have said RG-59 has more loss.....? :)

[veryoldschool]

medic4jc7
"leakage" doesn't really apply to OTA, but yes, RG-6 is the way to go period.

[Tom Robertson]

VOS, isn't it also generally true that RG59 has even greater RF loss at the higher frequencies utilized by the Ka-hi transponders from the Spaceway satellites?

Cheers,
Tom
"RG-6 has a larger center conductor and has less loss at higher frequencies."

Should I have said RG-59 has more loss.....? :)

Sorry, I inadequately was trying to say that now that DIRECTV is using even higher frequencies, the issue of RG-59 becomes even greater than before, if I understand correctly.

VOS you worded your statement very well; I not quite so well. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[veryoldschool]

I see someone is nipping at my rear with their post count. :lol:

Oh how I can remember being so far ahead...:D

[K4SMX]

Just like anything else, there's good quality RG-59 and bad quality RG-6. I would at least try what appears to be a decent quality length of existing RG-59 before I'd go to a lot of trouble replacing it. You should know, however, that it requires connectors which are designed for RG-59, not RG-6.

Please see this interesting article, if you haven't seen it previously:

Video Cable Shielding- What Works, Why, and the Myth of Quad Shield Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/shielding.htm)

These guys have many other excellent, well-researched, and technically correct articles. They also provide good products for a fair price.

[racermd]

That and I don't recall seeing any RG11 connectors/tools at Home Depot.

Reason: Tools for RG6 and RG59 are nearly interchangeable. You'll need tools specifically for RG11 due to overall cable diameter.

RG11 is really good for long distances, such as when a cable company needs to run a really long drop from the tap to the distribution box on your home or apartment. And, while it'll work very nicely for runs around your home, it's not very flexible, it's usually overkill, and it's very expensive.

High-quality RG6 is generally good enough for most runs of up to about 150 feet and should be suitable for future uses for many years.

[medic4jc7]

medic4jc7
"leakage" doesn't really apply to OTA, but yes, RG-6 is the way to go period.I was was just comparing for DTV cable.

[K4SMX]

Reason: Tools for RG6 and RG59 are nearly interchangeable. You'll need tools specifically for RG11 due to overall cable diameter.

RG11 is really good for long distances, such as when a cable company needs to run a really long drop from the tap to the distribution box on your home or apartment. And, while it'll work very nicely for runs around your home, it's not very flexible, it's usually overkill, and it's very expensive.

High-quality RG6 is generally good enough for most runs of up to about 150 feet and should be suitable for future uses for many years.
Be careful buying RG-11. There's lots of different types, and I would recommend going to the Belden Cable website (http://www.belden.com/) for a thorough review of all the different types and what you might accidentally be buying. Different types of RG-11 have different loss characteristics at higher frequencies. You would want RG11A/U, not RG-11/U, because of the foam dialectric. The solder-on PL-259 connectors are available at Radio Shack, etc., although these days they're plated and it's difficult to solder to the outside (shield part) of the connector. BTW, these connectors are commonly referred to as "UHF connectors," even though they're not actually rated for UHF, let alone anything higher. Finally, most types of RG-11 are not intended for direct burial, unlike the RG-6 that the cable TV co's use. For that you would need an Rg-11 variety that specified that it has a "non-contaminating" jacket. There are mil-spec versions of these. The mil. spec. version of RG-11 with the plastic dialectric is RG-214, so you'd want to find the foam dialectric version of that. You still have to transition to a female F connector....

Cable TV hardline is a much better solution, if you can get your hands on it and can beg or buy the female F connector adapters. There are different sizes of this stuff, too, each with its own applicable female F adapter. I've made 350' satellite runs with this stuff - no amplifiers or DC voltage gadgets required. Just don't tell any cable TV guys that it's for your satellite installation!

[Steve Robertson]

Well I do have the RG6 cable so I guess that is not my problem. This AM my readings with cloudy skies are

88, 88, 69, 74, 77, 80, 72, 80
79,82,76,82,86,91
97,97

I know these aren't bad #'s but others in my area are reporting mid to high 90's across the board.

So any ideas or should I even be concerned with these readings?

Thanks again

[dthreet]

if you have RG-59 cable attacted that usually causes alot of problems. Directv singal comes in at between 950 mhz to 2150 mhz. RG-59 cable usually use for lower quality video signal.

here is a good referance on cable quality and type matrix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable

If you cable is spliced through a wall fish there is a good change you have it. otherwise low signal stringht is prob a dish out of alighment. however w/ that signal you sould a little bit about of alignment. But not that much.

[captain_video]

RG-59 - OK for analog cable and OTA reception
RG-6 (copper-clad steel) - OK for most mpeg2 satellite applications
RG-6 (solid copper conductor) - required for mpeg4 reception

The above list shows the order and application for the various cables most commonly used for TV reception in most homes. RG-59 was used for older cable installations, mainly because it was cheaper and the bandwidth requirements were far less than they are today. RG-6 is required for wider bandwidth sources such as digital cable and satellite.

Note that most RG-6 that you'll find at Home Depot and other retail outlets will be copper-clad steel rather than solid copper. The latest mpeg4 slimline dishes and LNBs from DirecTV may require RG-6 with a solid copper center conductor due to the more stringent voltage requirements of the newer LNBs. Copper-clad steel RG-6 may have too much voltage drop to work with these LNBs. If the switching voltage dips too low, the LNBs won't be able to switch transponders. This will probably be an issue only if you have long cable runs between the dish and your receivers.

If you have existing copper-clad steel coax then get the dish installed and test it to see if the LNBs will switch properly when commanded from each location in the house. If you have issues with changing transponders then you should consider rewiring your setup with the solid copper coax.

[bt-rtp]

Beldon 7916A, Quad Shield, Copper Center Conductor, Coax Cable.

[K4SMX]

RG-59 - OK for analog cable and OTA reception
RG-6 (copper-clad steel) - OK for most mpeg2 satellite applications
RG-6 (solid copper conductor) - required for mpeg4 reception

The above list shows the order and application for the various cables most commonly used for TV reception in most homes. RG-59 was used for older cable installations, mainly because it was cheaper and the bandwidth requirements were far less than they are today. RG-6 is required for wider bandwidth sources such as digital cable and satellite.

Note that most RG-6 that you'll find at Home Depot and other retail outlets will be copper-clad steel rather than solid copper. The latest mpeg4 slimline dishes and LNBs from DirecTV may require RG-6 with a solid copper center conductor due to the more stringent voltage requirements of the newer LNBs. Copper-clad steel RG-6 may have too much voltage drop to work with these LNBs. If the switching voltage dips too low, the LNBs won't be able to switch transponders. This will probably be an issue only if you have long cable runs between the dish and your receivers.

If you have existing copper-clad steel coax then get the dish installed and test it to see if the LNBs will switch properly when commanded from each location in the house. If you have issues with changing transponders then you should consider rewiring your setup with the solid copper coax.
That is all good advice! I have, however, tested copper-clad steel RG-6 at 100' for DC voltage loss and could detect no measurable difference at the far end. I have also compared and used RG59 with no problems over common distances at Ka without significant Ka signal degradation. YMMV, because there's some crummy RG-6 and RG-59 out there. Keep in mind, also, that using existing in-home RG-59 or RG-6 is problematic because it is frequently internally damaged by being stapled to studs and there may be hidden cable TV splitters. Connectors on the inside of existing wall plates should also be carefully examined, because they may have been either improperly installed or have loosened. If you have to replace any RG-59 connectors, they are different from RG-6 or RG-6 Quad connectors.

[Tom Robertson]

That is all good advice! I have, however, tested copper-clad steel RG-6 at 100' for DC voltage loss and could detect no measurable difference at the far end. I have also compared and used RG59 with no problems over common distances at Ka without significant Ka signal degradation. YMMV, because there's some crummy RG-6 and RG-59 out there. Keep in mind, also, that using existing in-home RG-59 or RG-6 is problematic because it is frequently internally damaged by being stapled to studs and there may be hidden cable TV splitters. Connectors on the inside of existing wall plates should also be carefully examined, because they may have been either improperly installed or have loosened. If you have to replace any RG-59 connectors, they are different from RG-6 or RG-6 Quad connectors.

Was the voltage loss tested with a live LNB load at that distance?

[Steve Robertson]

That is interesting about the staples that is how mine are mounted through my cellar. So this could be a problem as well?

[Tom Robertson]

If RG6 or RG59 is stapled very tightly to a surface, the staple can compress the coax causing a problem with the RF flow, a minor reduction of the signal. Enough of them or with enough compression, marginal cable for satellite use, like RG59, can reduce the signal enough to be a problem. It would have to be serious compression, tho. Signal strengths of the satellite feeds would determine if this is actually a problem in your case.

Cheers,
Tom

[Steve Robertson]

I guess I have to do some investigating this weekend but only inbetween football games and beer drinking LOL

Thanks again for all this information it has really taught me something that I did not know.

[veryoldschool]

Powered multi-switches and/or a Sonora locker can offset voltage drops through long runs of marginal coax.
Adding a $60 locker may be cheaper than pulling new coax runs. FWIW

[Starchild]

I thought I had my whole house wired with RG6, but Directech was here this morning and found a hybrid cable run-Half RG6 and half RG59. The whole problem of signal loss was directly related to the RG59. Fixed it and the problem cleared up immediately.

[Steve Robertson]

I do have a powered multiswitch

[Steve Robertson]

You know I wonder how much of a problem this maybe out there for customers that had the old wire put in years ago.

[JeffBowser]

I had a 33 year old plant of stapled RG59 throughout my house. I've spent the last 3 years replacing it a bit at a time. The last run is a real bear, though - inaccessible attic portion, 90degree bend in the wall, the wall being cement block. That run is gonna have to stay like it is.

[veryoldschool]

Good cable will do wonders for RF transmission along with the minimum use of connectors.
I'm not sure all power multi-switches drive the LNBs like a locker does, but if it does, then this will compensate for some of the voltage loss from the receivers through poor center conductors.

[veryoldschool]

I had a 33 year old plant of stapled RG59 throughout my house. I've spent the last 3 years replacing it a bit at a time. The last run is a real bear, though - inaccessible attic portion, 90degree bend in the wall, the wall being cement block. That run is gonna have to stay like it is.
I hope you only have a SD receiver on that run. :D

[JeffBowser]

:lol: Goes to my daughters room, all she gets is digital OTA, so it's fine for now.

I hope you only have a SD receiver on that run. :D

[Steve Robertson]

I think I may try getting 1 cable to see if it makes a difference and if it does then I will get the other 3.

[veryoldschool]

I think I may try getting 1 cable to see if it makes a difference and if it does then I will get the other 3.
do you know which multi-switch you have? Maybe google can give some info about it.

[Steve Robertson]

do you know which multi-switch you have? Maybe google can give some info about it.

Not off the top of my head I don't

[veryoldschool]

Not off the top of my head I don't
OK, time to turn in your DBS geek membership card. :lol:

[Steve Robertson]

OK, time to turn in your DBS geek membership card. :lol:

I know I feel I have let thje community down here I did know it but forgot old age setting in I guess.

I will post it tomorrow when I get a chance. I am off to my dentist who just bought an HDTV and watches only SD so it is time to bust some more chops with him

[K4SMX]

Was the voltage loss tested with a live LNB load at that distance?
It was a 6v light bulb. I really don't think electronically switched LNB's draw much current, but you have a valid point, and so it would be interesting to dig up the exact current draw of the latest 5 LNB built-in multi-switches. I'm sure it's published somewhere. I'll have to wire up a test of that - shouldn't be hard.

[veryoldschool]

It was a 6v light bulb. I really don't think electronically switched LNB's draw much current, but you have a valid point, and so it would be interesting to dig up the exact current draw of the latest 5 LNB built-in multi-switches. I'm sure it's published somewhere. I'll have to wire up a test of that - shouldn't be hard.
"something like" half an amp.

[Meglos]

Be careful buying RG-11. There's lots of different types, and I would recommend going to the Belden Cable website (http://www.belden.com/) for a thorough review of all the different types and what you might accidentally be buying. Different types of RG-11 have different loss characteristics at higher frequencies. You would want RG11A/U, not RG-11/U, because of the foam dialectric. The solder-on PL-259 connectors are available at Radio Shack, etc., although these days they're plated and it's difficult to solder to the outside (shield part) of the connector. BTW, these connectors are commonly referred to as "UHF connectors," even though they're not actually rated for UHF, let alone anything higher. Finally, most types of RG-11 are not intended for direct burial, unlike the RG-6 that the cable TV co's use. For that you would need an Rg-11 variety that specified that it has a "non-contaminating" jacket. There are mil-spec versions of these. The mil. spec. version of RG-11 with the plastic dialectric is RG-214, so you'd want to find the foam dialectric version of that. You still have to transition to a female F connector....About a year ago, I did my own roof-mount install of an AT9 dish and happened to have a 1000 ft. spool of Belden flooded RG11 that I originally planning to use for a post mount pretty far away from the house. Plans changed (http://www.ed.scherer.name/5018Arapahoe/Projects/DirecTVDish/DirecTVDishStory.html). So, I just went ahead and used it for the run from the basement wiring closet to the attic (opposite ends of the house, fairly long run, but not that long; RG6 would have been fine). Yeah, what a waste and overkill, but I got the spool really cheaply and I do have great signal strength!

Anyway, I can attest to the fact that RG11 is kind of a pain to work with. Kind of like trying to fish four garden hoses through the house. :)

Here's a comparison of RG11 and RG6, for anyone who hasn't seen both before:

http://www.ed.scherer.name/Pictures/Misc/medium/IMG_6322a.jpg

You definitely want to transition to a short pigtail of RG6 before the dish, IMHO. This is what it looks like under my dish in the attic:

http://www.ed.scherer.name/Pictures/Misc/medium/IMG_2306a.jpg

[K4SMX]

That is serious, hardcore overkill! Looks great. Thanks for the photos.

[Steve Robertson]

OK, time to turn in your DBS geek membership card. :lol:

I have a Zinwell 4x8. My signals are still about the same as last week.

[y2jdmbfan]

I have RG-59 run to the bedrooms in my house, house was built in 1986, no easy way to replace the RG-59 with RG-6 and I have had very few problems.

[TommyV]

It is best not to only have RG6 but to have solid copper core RG6 that is sweep tested to 2.2 GHz or more for SAT install. I use Belden 7915A. It is actually more effective than quad shield and I have had nothing but success on all my runs. You can find some cheaper brands but I think it's worth a few extra bucks and I will not use anything else.

[oldavman]

It is best not to only have RG6 but to have solid copper core RG6 that is sweep tested to 2.2 GHz or more for SAT install. I use Belden 7915A. It is actually more effective than quad shield and I have had nothing but success on all my runs. You can find some cheaper brands but I think it's worth a few extra bucks and I will not use anything else.

Very good advice. I also use Belden RG-6 with a solid copper center conductor. My runs from the dish to my receivers are 125' - 135' and I have a very good signal. I use premium cable, compression fittings, and limit connections as much as possible. I also have a roof mounted Channel Master 4228 8-bay UHF antenna that I run RG-11 from to my DVR20 for my local HD channels that Directv doesn't carry. I also use a Channel Master preamp/amp. Very good signal (I'm 45-50 miles from towers in St. Louis)

[JonVig]

So it could be causing my weak signal readings I take it?

I will have to check when I get home to see what I have.

I had been told (long ago) by a D* installer that RG-59 could not support the signal without LOS. Turns out they were right. I had to re-wire my entire house (3 floors - 6 receivers) to RG-6.

[Steve Robertson]

I had been told (long ago) by a D* installer that RG-59 could not support the signal without LOS. Turns out they were right. I had to re-wire my entire house (3 floors - 6 receivers) to RG-6.

I do have RG6 but not sure the quality of it after reading this thread. I checked for staples in the line and there are none. I think the dish needs a little fine tunning and will have D* come out and do it once I find the time to call and hassel with them over this

[JonVig]

I do have RG6 but not sure the quality of it after reading this thread. I checked for staples in the line and there are none. I think the dish needs a little fine tunning and will have D* come out and do it once I find the time to call and hassel with them over this

Good Luck Steve!! I hope everything works out and you enjoy your BEAUTIFUL HD PQ for many years to come!!

Jon

[Milominderbinder2]

...Kind of like... garden hose...Here's a comparison of RG11 and RG6, for anyone who hasn't seen both before:

http://www.ed.scherer.name/Pictures/Misc/medium/IMG_6322a.jpg
Meglos,

In the words of Dilbert,

You have achieved Nerdvana.

- Craig

Notice I am not commenting on how thick or stiff it is. :)

[Steve Robertson]

Good Luck Steve!! I hope everything works out and you enjoy your BEAUTIFUL HD PQ for many years to come!!

Jon

Thanks I will need it just to get D* to come out but then again I could just lie about my signal strength.

[K4SMX]

Meglos,

In the words of Dilbert,

You have achieved Nerdvana.

- Craig

Notice I am not commenting on how thick or stiff it is. :)
And check out that center conductor tip on the RG-6....solid copper. Nice job with RG-11 > male F adapter, too!