Please Help Solve Problem

[tncolts]

Good Morning DBSTalk.com members,

This is my first post on the site (long time reader). First I want to say thanks to all the folks that make DBSTalk.com possible:D ; it’s a wonderful asset for anyone who has Direct Broadcast Satellite service.

Ok now for the reason I’m posting. I have had DBS satellite service in my apartment complex now for about 4 years. For the last 3 years I have had a major lingering problem. I started with Dish Network 4 years ago and every so often about half of my channels would just simply go out; I was losing roughly half of the transponders on my receiver. So after replacing the LNB, the multi-switch, and the receiver the problem still persists. Finally be so fed up I switched to DirecTV.

So now I have DirecTV and I am very happy with their service and programming options. But guess what my problems still persisted with DirecTV. As a matter of fact the day I had my DirecTV installed a lost about half of my channels; so the installer installed a new multi-switch that day and everything was fine. That was 2 years ago and the problem has existed from day one. However let me explain the problem comes and goes it was very inconsistent. On DirecTV I would lose all odd number transponders; so if you like channels that are on odd number transponders then you are just SOL!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

But finally after 2 years of pulling my hair out, replacing my R-15:mad: with an R-10:) , replacing my passive multi-switch with a powered multi-switch, and replacing my LNB; FINALLY the cause of the problem was discovered a few days ago, now I just have to figure out why it’s happening and how to fix it.

HERE GOES: Every time the dryer in the laundry room comes on ALL odd transponders go out. I mean the second the dryer comes on the transponders go directly from 92 to 100 to 0. The second the dryer goes off the transponders go directly back from 0 to 92 to 100. I have attached a layout of my apartment complex so that everyone can see how the apartment is wired.

An authorized DirecTV installer is coming to my house tomorrow to install the 5 LNB Slim-line Dish (UPGRADING TO HD and HR-20 – VERY EXCITED:hurah: ). Is there anything that he can check with the wiring, or the dish that could possibly be causing the problem.

MAYBE SOMEONE HERE CAN HELP???

Please Help if you Can

See attached PDF File for Layout of my Apartment.

[Stuart Sweet]

Well clearly the problem is electromagnetic interference from the dryer. I think you've proven that. The problem is, the DIRECTV installer can only do so much if the wiring can't be moved.

Have you gotten the apartment management involved yet? I think that the real solution would be shielding the dryer, possibly adding some simple tinfoil to the walls behind the dryer may be enough. The DIRECTV installer may have some shielded cables he can use, but I wouldn't count on that.

[hasan]

It is a good idea to use a UPS with your new HR20. This helps two things for you:

1. It takes bad power out of the equation (your dryer can't trip the line or brown it out...the UPS will cover for you.)

2. You won't lose recordings during power problems.

You can get by with something small for #1, probably less than 60 bucks.

What I would buy, knowing I have some power problems, is the new APC units I see at Sams Club...includes power conditioning and has a high power rating (long run time).

If you are using a DLP television, you should run the TV from the UPS as well (to let the fan run for a couple minutes during a power failure...it saves bulb life).

The Power Conditioning model is 139 bucks, as I recall.

[tncolts]

Thank you both for replying so quickly to my post. To answer the first question, yes I have spoke with building management. They asked if it was effecting all of the apartments (All 4 units have DBS systems, I’m the only one with Direct they all have Dish) I checked the other apartments last night and no one else is having trouble when the dryer is running, just me.

As for the UPS, I’m going to run by CompUSA today and pick up one; I had read that on one of the tips given for using the HR-20.

Thanks :)

[MIMOTech]

The problem is most likely a connection problem with the dryer. Bad ground connection, or bad power connection causing some arcing. As a rule dryers don't put out anything that should cause interference. So It has to be something electrical, maybe in the motor or a relay in the dryer. Only something that is causing some arcing would give off frequencies that would affect the sat IF signal. Also check and make sure the shields on the coax are still good and that the grounding points on the distribution box are OK.

[Rob]

I'm no expert. If the Dryer runs off 110 power, maybe you can run an extension cord to another outlet to see if that stops the outages. Maybe there is something wrong with the outlet and/or wiring to it.

[tncolts]

The problem is most likely a connection problem with the dryer. Bad ground connection, or bad power connection causing some arcing. As a rule dryers don't put out anything that should cause interference. So It has to be something electrical, maybe in the motor or a relay in the dryer. Only something that is causing some arcing would give off frequencies that would affect the sat IF signal. Also check and make sure the shields on the coax are still good and that the grounding points on the distribution box are OK.

Thanks for the reply; one other note that I meant to mention. If you saw the attachment it shows two dryers; there is actually only one dryer; there are two hook-ups for dryers but there is only one. These two seperate 220 plugs are on seperate breakers so last night I thought I would move the dryer across the room and see if the Sat only went out when using the one plug -- BUT to no avail. When I moved the dryer across the room to the other plug as soon as the dryer was turned on the signal went out.

Thanks

[Stuart Sweet]

It is possible that the dryer itself is improperly grounded or that the 220 line itself has shielding issues. Reframing this as a safety issue might get the attention of the management as well.

[paulman182]

I'm thinking the dryer might be dropping the voltage enough to where the satellite receiver is not properly switching polarity--it needs to send 18V down the coax but is only capable of 16, perhaps.

Do your light bulbs dim when the dryer is running?

I would measure the voltage at the wall socket with a voltmeter. It should be in the neighborhood of 120 volts AC even with the dryer running.

[tncolts]

It is possible that the dryer itself is improperly grounded or that the 220 line itself has shielding issues. Reframing this as a safety issue might get the attention of the management as well.


That is exactly what I have tried to do when approaching building management. I think they are going to get an electrician to come out and test things out. It’s just strange to me that none of the other apartments are affected by the dryer, but when I had Dish Network mine went out all the time. I’m starting to think that it’s something in my house.

[Moocher]

If I were you, I would first get a decent APC UPS. You need one anyway. If that solves the problem, there you go. If it doesn't solve the problem, that's ok.

Next step is a bit more trouble. I'd get a dolly and "borrow" a neighbor's dryer. Hook it up in place of my own and see if the problem exists. That way, you would know if the problem is with your dryer or with your wiring.

If the problem still exists with the different dryer, then you need input from someone more knowledgeable than me. If the different dryer solves the problem, then there is something seriously wrong with it and I'd either get someone to fix it or, more likely given prices of repair, buy a new one. After buying high end washer and dryer 6 years ago my wife and I learned that cheaper is better. The high end stuff has controls and switches that go out and cost more to fix. Don't wash or dry any better than the cheap ones.

Good luck.

Mooch

[purtman]

I would definitely have somebody check the wiring. Bad wiring is always a safety issue. I wouldn't want to be in an apartment where this issue existed. The owners should make sure it gets fixed.

[JeffBowser]

Man, jump on that asap - that's a 220 volt heating device putting out RFI it sounds like. Not a good thing.....

[tncolts]

If I were you, I would first get a decent APC UPS. You need one anyway. If that solves the problem, there you go. If it doesn't solve the problem, that's ok.

Next step is a bit more trouble. I'd get a dolly and "borrow" a neighbor's dryer. Hook it up in place of my own and see if the problem exists. That way, you would know if the problem is with your dryer or with your wiring.

If the problem still exists with the different dryer, then you need input from someone more knowledgeable than me. If the different dryer solves the problem, then there is something seriously wrong with it and I'd either get someone to fix it or, more likely given prices of repair, buy a new one. After buying high end washer and dryer 6 years ago my wife and I learned that cheaper is better. The high end stuff has controls and switches that go out and cost more to fix. Don't wash or dry any better than the cheap ones.

Good luck.

Mooch

Thanks so much for the advise. I think it's a great idea to try someone's dryer.

[tncolts]

Man, jump on that asap - that's a 220 volt heating device putting out RFI it sounds like. Not a good thing.....

Maybe a dumb question, but I'll ask anyways.

Can a professional electrician tell if the dryer is putting out RFI's?

[JeffBowser]

Maybe, depends on the electrician. However, he would more than likely be able to see the root problem, whether he realizes the symptoms or not.

Maybe a dumb question, but I'll ask anyways.

Can a professional electrician tell if the dryer is putting out RFI's?

[paulman182]

Do your lights dim when the dryer is turned on?

I seriously doubt RFI is the problem. And yes, it could be a safety issue.

[gsa1]

If it is a 240 line, one side may be tapped to supply 120 to the line to your receiver. if this occurs after the dryer (end of run) there may be a severe loss of power to that run when the dryer is on. have you tried plugging the receiver into an outlet you are CERTAIN is not shared? Although a 240 device should be a home run to the circuit box, there is no guarantee it is. In this case both sides of the circuit would share the "neutral" white line, and this could then be a potential source of a problem.

[JeffBowser]

I have a situation in my house where my lights dim when the disposal runs. My HR20 is on that circuit. It never resulted in any glitches whatsoever. Remember, these devices accept anywhere from 80 to 220 volts AC on the input, and convert that to low voltage DC on the inside. Fluctuating AC is not as big a deal as it used to be.

[tncolts]

If it is a 220 line, one side may be tapped to supply 110 to the line to your receiver. if this occurs after the dryer (end of run) there may be a severe loss of power to that run when the dryer is on. have you tried plugging the receiver into an outlet you are CERTAIN is not shared?

I have not checked that; however, if you can refer back to the attachment in the first post you will notice 5 disctinct areas of the complex: Apartment 1, Apartment2, Apartment 3, Apartment 4, and the Laundary Room. All 5 of these areas have their own breaker boxes.

So is it still possible that my 110 jack is tapped to to the 220?

[tncolts]

Do your lights dim when the dryer is turned on?

I seriously doubt RFI is the problem. And yes, it could be a safety issue.

The lights do not dim when the dryer is running.

[armophob]

If it is a voltage drop trouble, the UPS will reveal them pretty quick. It will alert/beep every time a volage up or down condition exists. It will also supply you with constant 120v to let your box operate properly. Some UPS's will alert you to grounding issues also.

[tncolts]

If it is a voltage drop trouble, the UPS will reveal them pretty quick. It will alert/beep every time a volage up or down condition exists. It will also supply you with constant 120v to let your box operate properly.

Thank you very much for your post. I am going to purchase a UPS today and will hook it up tonight. I will post the results here when I complete the installation.

[gsa1]

I have not checked that; however, if you can refer back to the attachment in the first post you will notice 5 disctinct areas of the complex: Apartment 1, Apartment2, Apartment 3, Apartment 4, and the Laundary Room. All 5 of these areas have their own breaker boxes.

So is it still possible that my 110 jack is tapped to to the 220?

There is no way to tell from here. I would suggest testing the receiver on another outlet first. Then, to determine if they ran a 12-3 wire (used for 240 service) to your receiver outlet, TURN OFF THE POWER TO THAT OUTLET AND REMOVE THE RECEPTICLE. lOOK FOR WHITE, GREEN, BLACK , AND RED WIRES. Either the red or the black will be unused or capped off UNLESS the outlet also has a switch. Be aware though that if the line has been tapped, they may have elected to run only a 12-2 or a 14-2 wire from the point of the tap to the outlet.

[armophob]

Thank you very much for your post. I am going to purchase a UPS today and will hook it up tonight. I will post the results here when I complete the installation.

Anything that is rated for home computer or home office is fine. But if you want to go the extra mile and get one larger that you can plug in the tv also might help it survive longer. The 1100's of certain brands cover that. The smaller units can run from $30-60 and the big ones I buy at Sam's for around $150-$180.

[rynberg]

It would be EXTREMELY unlikely that the wiring for the laundry room is in any way connected to apartment unit power. Subs can f*ck up a lot of stuff during construction but that would be a doozy and not something I think any electrician would risk.

As with some of the others, I would much more strongly suspect an EMI-type problem than something associated with the electrical wiring. Still, it is a potential safety issue and the apartment bldg owner should definitely get an electrician in there to assess the situation.

[JeffBowser]

Oh yeah - I've put a 1500 watter on my entire home theatre setup, and I get 30 mins of running sans power from the wall. I can actually finish an entire stupid sitcom in the dark :lol:

Anything that is rated for home computer or home office is fine. But if you want to go the extra mile and get one larger that you can plug in the tv also might help it survive longer. The 1100's of certain brands cover that. The smaller units can run from $30-60 and the big ones I buy at Sam's for around $150-$180.

[armophob]

Oh yeah - I've put a 1500 watter on my entire home theatre setup, and I get 30 mins of running sans power from the wall. I can actually finish an entire stupid sitcom in the dark :lol:

Got you beat. 3 1100's, 2 500's, 2 650's for one rack system. 13 total house wide for every electronic device I own. Sounds like Pink Floyd's Time when the power flashes.:lol:

[JeffBowser]

:lol: I know, the beeps can drive you batty. I kill them either by destroying the speaker, or a software disable if available.

I only mentioned my main HD setup, I have a half dozen more in other places, drives my wife batty if I can't hide them well.

Got you beat. 3 1100's, 2 500's, 2 650's for one rack system. 13 total house wide for every electronic device I own. Sounds like Pink Floyd's Time when the power flashes.:lol:

[tncolts]

I just purchased THIS (http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX900) UPS during my lunch break at CompUSA. It may not be the best, but it probably is not the worst either.

I'll try it tonight

[wildbill129]

Good Morning DBSTalk.com members,


HERE GOES: Every time the dryer in the laundry room comes on ALL odd transponders go out. I mean the second the dryer comes on the transponders go directly from 92 to 100 to 0. The second the dryer goes off the transponders go directly back from 0 to 92 to 100. I have attached a layout of my apartment complex so that everyone can see how the apartment is wired.



How many RG6 runs are there that go from the distribution panel to your apartment? Specifically to the receiver you are having problems with.

Is the Distribution panel grounded to it's own ground rod or is it tied to the electrical ground?

Is the satellite dish grounded to it's own ground or are they using the ground in the distribution panel only?

[donshan]

Very interesting problem.

How are the satellite dish and the sat cables grounded? The dryer circuits are grounded by the neutral wire directly back to the power panel. Each 120v circuit, such as the ones your receivers are plugged into are grounded back to that same ground bus in the power panel which is grounded to the power company ground. The idea is to have only ONE ground point at the meter/panel for everything so all grounds are at the same ground voltage i.e zero.

The dish and the sat cable ground block(s) also need to be grounded back to that same main power panel ground point. Sometimes Sat installers don't ground properly and maybe the original grounding install was not done correctly. For example perhaps there is a grounding rod into the the earth on the sat dish, or a hose bib is used near the sat dish which creates a second grounding point because the water pipe isn't grounded to that power panel inside the apartment. This can can lead to grounding loop currents that can screw things up since that second ground is not the same ground voltage as the house ground and a voltage difference develops.


Be sure your D* installer checks all the sat and sat cable grounding meet code requirements, especially the dual grounding block where the sat cables enter the apartment.. It would be interesting to put a volt meter with one meter wire on the sat cable grounding block vs. the second meter wire connected to the center ground hole of any nearby electrical outlet to see if there is any voltage difference ( even millivolts) in the two ground systems when that dryer comes on between the main power ground and the sat grounding system.

Just one more thing to check out. Good luck!:)

[phat78boy]

I've read all the power statements, but do you know what type of RG6 cable is ran in the walls? I've seen this problem with non-shielded RG6 and CAT5e/CAT6 cables. Power lines and data/cable lines are usually ran pretty close to each other and if its not a shielded cable, you will have problems eventually. I've seen subs use this either cause they didn't know any better or because they were just cheap and figured it wouldn't matter. Plenum rated shielded cable is what you would want in your walls.

[tncolts]

How many RG6 runs are there that go from the distribution panel to your apartment? Specifically to the receiver you are having problems with.

Is the Distribution panel grounded to it's own ground rod or is it tied to the electrical ground?

Is the satellite dish grounded to it's own ground or are they using the ground in the distribution panel only?

I may not have mentioned it; but this affects both receiver's that I have (1 R-10 and 1 Standard DirecTV Receiver). If you notice on the layout attachment on post # 1 only 1 wire from the Distribution panel is servicing a wall jack in my apartment. The 2 inputs that the R-10 uses were wired by the DirecTV installer himself around the outside of the house and through the brick to a wall jack inside the house.

[tncolts]

I've read all the power statements, but do you know what type of RG6 cable is ran in the walls? I've seen this problem with non-shielded RG6 and CAT5e/CAT6 cables. Power lines and data/cable lines are usually ran pretty close to each other and if its not a shielded cable, you will have problems eventually. I've seen subs use this either cause they didn't know any better or because they were just cheap and figured it wouldn't matter. Plenum rated shielded cable is what you would want in your walls.

I thought the very same thing phat78boy. The 2 coaxial cables that are running from the multi-switch to the R-10 are run around the outside of the home and are RG-6 cables. The 1 coaxial cable that runs from the multi-switch (Services the regular receiver in master bedroom) is RG-6. But from the distribution panel to the bedroom I'm not sure if it's RG-6 or if it's RG-59. So last night I completely removed the 1 coaxial cable that runs from the multi-switch (Services the regular receiver in master bedroom). When I removed this wire the signal on all of the odd transponders came back up to 92 to 100. However, after a few seconds they went back to 0; this is a little bit different than what usually happens. Usually when the dryer comes on the signal goes immediately to 0 but this time it took it a few seconds to go to 0. So as I sat there with the signal meter on transponder 1 I noticed that every so often I would see a sudden spike in the signal to 95, but then after a few seconds back to 0.

So after I did this last night I was even more confused so I just gave up.

[turbrodude]

My brother has a similar problem. He loses certain channels/transponders when a certain light switch is turned on in the room. He has a rheostat dimmer on it. Now he just never uses that light while watching tv.

[mark_winn]

Is your multiswitch powered ? Half the transponders on 18 V and the others I think 13V. If the dryer is pulling down the voltage on the multiswitch you could lose half your channels.

[tncolts]

Is your multiswitch powered ? Half the transponders on 18 V and the others I think 13V. If the dryer is pulling down the voltage on the multiswitch you could lose half your channels.

Thanks Mark for the reply,

To answer your question I have an Eagle Aspen 4x8 Powered Multi-Switch. This was one of the things that I replaced trying to isolate the problem.

[armophob]

Thanks Mark for the reply,

To answer your question I have an Eagle Aspen 4x8 Powered Multi-Switch. This was one of the things that I replaced trying to isolate the problem.

Make sure it gets plugged in to the UPS also, somehow.

[tncolts]

Make sure it gets plugged in to the UPS also, somehow.

I would do that but since I'm getting HD installed tomorrow with the Zinwell (sp?) Multi-switch, which I believe is passive; I wont need to.

Thanks

[armophob]

I would do that but since I'm getting HD installed tomorrow with the Zinwell (sp?) Multi-switch, which I believe is passive; I wont need to.

Thanks

Correct. But, for tonights testing to see if the UPS fixes the trouble, you may want to run an extension cord to it. That is if it does not clear up just using it on the box of course.

[ChicagoTC]

Once you move to the WB68, a Sonora signal locker might also help.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HRPID1422

[tncolts]

Correct. But, for tonights testing to see if the UPS fixes the trouble, you may want to run an extension cord to it. That is if it does not clear up just using it on the box of course.

Will Do Thanks!

[tncolts]

Ok, I hooked up my UPS last night. And the same thing still happens. I guess it's time to get an electrician involved.

[PANCHITO]

Did you try to put the ups at the dryer, also try a 3 prong adapter to tv and sat box. I had a similar problem and fix it a 3 prong adapter to my tv set. try to put one in dryer too. you can buy them at your local hardware store.

[K4SMX]

With your current set up, I don't know why you would need a multi-switch at all, when the Slimline is installed. That will probably eliminate this problem once and for all, whatever its cause, once everything is properly grounded.

I suspect that your current powered multi-switch, the dish, the grounding block, and the coaxial distribution box are not all properly grounded all the way back to the service ground for the building with a separate ground wire, and that the multi-switch is failing to provide the proper voltage to your dish when the dryer is on, thus causing you to lose all your odd transponders. Exactly why that's happening is unclear and in a way unimportant, but improper grounding is much more likely to be the cause than RFI from the dryer, unless it has a built in Van der Graff generator!

Temporarily, you can run any old wire on the ground connecting all these devices to the building service ground. Final installation is supposed to be #6, I believe.

Make sure that your new Slimline, its grounding block, and your coaxial distribution panel are all properly grounded to the service ground. Your dish should also be grounded with #4 to an 8' ground rod, which is also connected by #6 to the wire going on to the service ground, probably at the grounding block in your case. I know this is a PIA, but this is what you're supposed to do.

[armophob]

You powered the switch with the battery back-up also?

[kaz]

I'm no expert. If the Dryer runs off 110 power, maybe you can run an extension cord to another outlet to see if that stops the outages. Maybe there is something wrong with the outlet and/or wiring to it.
who makes a 110 dryer? :)

[kaz]

Maybe a dumb question, but I'll ask anyways.

Can a professional electrician tell if the dryer is putting out RFI's?

try taking some unsheilded or older computer seakers in the laundry room. see if they pick anything up... you could do a quick test by making a cell phone call next tot he speakers to see if it'll pick it up... sinple poorman PF detector. of course it wont get every frequency, but its free :)

[kaz]

Once you move to the WB68, a Sonora signal locker might also help.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HRPID1422

I can also vouch for this locker, it solved my even/odd problem on 103b. If you are seeing problem before you get an AT9/AU9, you will definitely see problems after. make sure after the installer is done to run the dryer while he's there. :)

[macmikey]

may be a silly question, but is it possible a main run has a bad connector? It seems that if the signal jumps form 0 to 95 or so and drops back off, or it drops off when dryer is running, that maybe it is losing a connection due to vibration? Do any cables run near the dryer at all? in the wall behind it? I heard of mice eating thru cables and if that happened right behind dryer, when it is on, the vibration may be shaking the wire and breaking connection. Just a thought.

[HDhysteria]

who makes a 110 dryer? :)

most if not all gas dryers are 110.

[HDhysteria]

lots of interesting stuff here, first the levels go from 95 to 0,,, so the voltage level is not enough to maintain the i believe 18 volt level. put a dc voltmeter on the coax line and measure to see what it does when the dryer is turned on and off. I dont think it rfi or emi related. My first guess would be a strange ground loop, maybe caused by a combination of things, such as improper grounding of the dryer, the dish setup, and or a shorted cable somewhere along its run. if the cables are accessible, replace them. if not, temporarily at least, run test runs of new cable and see what happens.

[tncolts]

Just wanted to give everyone here an update on the dryer situation.

My dad came over last night with a 100' 14G extension cord. What we did was unplug the UPS. I immediately noticed that when the equipment was running off of the UPS's battery the signal did not drop. This leads me to believe that the dryer is NOT sending out any kind of radio signal. The next thing we did was plug the UPS into the extension cord and we tried 25 different outlets; these outlets were on the inside and outside of my apartment and we also tried some of my neighbor’s outlets. As soon as the extension cord was plugged into the outlet the signal dropped back to 0. My dad finally said "Let's try one of your neighbors (NOT IN THE APARTMENT COMPLEX) outlets. I ran the extension cord across my neighbors drive (about 50' away) and plugged it into an outside outlet. This time when we plugged in the extension cord the signal stayed at 95. We then verified on the UPS that in was in fact receiving power from an outlet and we verified that the dryer was still running.

My dad has concluded that when the dryer is running the entire complex has a voltage drop.

I think he's right too; because I believe that we have eliminated all other possibilities.

[donshan]

Just wanted to give everyone here an update on the dryer situation.

My dad came over last night with a 100' 14G extension cord. What we did was unplug the UPS. I immediately noticed that when the equipment was running off of the UPS's battery the signal did not drop. This leads me to believe that the dryer is NOT sending out any kind of radio signal. The next thing we did was plug the UPS into the extension cord and we tried 25 different outlets; these outlets were on the inside and outside of my apartment and we also tried some of my neighbor’s outlets. As soon as the extension cord was plugged into the outlet the signal dropped back to 0. My dad finally said "Let's try one of your neighbors (NOT IN THE APARTMENT COMPLEX) outlets. I ran the extension cord across my neighbors drive (about 50' away) and plugged it into an outside outlet. This time when we plugged in the extension cord the signal stayed at 95. We then verified on the UPS that in was in fact receiving power from an outlet and we verified that the dryer was still running.

My dad has concluded that when the dryer is running the entire complex has a voltage drop.

I think he's right too; because I believe that we have eliminated all other possibilities.

I don't think that eliminated the other possibilities, but a simply plugging a digital voltmeter into an outlet with and without the dryer on could prove your hypothesis or not. I would think your lights would dim too if the whole complex voltage dropped. Was that a 3 wire grounded extension cord or 2 wire? And just to be sure I understand, you do have a 240 volt dryer, not a gas fired one? I still think a grounding issue is at work here, but the voltmeter test is needed.

When you ran on the UPS battery and also when you ran on the neighbors house you also shifted the white neutral wire powering your recievers from the ground bus in your complex's power panel to an isolated neutral off the UPS in the first case, or to the neighbors grounded neutral white wire system in the second. I still think the grounding hypothesis is possible unless the voltmeter test proves otherwise. That white neutral wire is supposed to be the same voltage as the grounding on your satellite equipment-- zero. The black wire voltage oscillates +/- AC vs. that neutral wire.


If just one 240 volt electric dryer is pulling down the voltage of the entire complex you do need an electrician. Do you have a 240 volt electric kitchen range too? A kitchen range with all the burners and oven turned on would pull as much power as a 240 volt electric dryer and should also reproduce the effect if that is really the cause. Measure that 120 volt at any regular output and verify it drops at an outlet when the dryer ( or range) comes on before you call the electrician.

BTW, I find a $25 digital voltmeter so useful for everything from this type problem to testing car batteries, flashlight batteries, cable plug connection continuity etc, that my tool kit always has one. I even have second little one in my car to test the car battery charging system, fuses/bulbs etc.

Edit: Just thought of one other item. Check the inside the dryer where the cable attaches. UNPLUG IT FIRST! Be sure all connections are tight and the green ground wire too if that is the way yours is . If the center neutral connection inside the dryer was not tight the dryer ground would not be right. Note in one picture on this link for the dryer cable attachment that the center wire connects to a ground strap and the white wire in some older dryers. This is the same white wire system that goes to your receivers too since both the dryer neutral and your outlet neutrals connect at the same place in the panel. And maybe you need a four wire dryer cable and yours has a three wire????? If in doubt get an electrician to check this - it can be dangerous!

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switchoutlet/dryer/dryershowall.htm

[techrep]

Check the dryer receptacle and see if it is for a 3 prong or a 4 prong plug. The motor in a 220 dryer runs off of 110 while the heating elements run off of 220. In old setups (3 prong) one leg of the 220 is actually run to ground to get the 110 for the motor. Code changed some years ago to require 3 covered wires (usually red, black, and white) and a ground wire (may be green but usually bare) resulting in the 4 prong plug. If it is a 3 prong plug, there are four things to check. If it is a 4 prong plug, there are two things to check. If you are in a 440 or 208 3-phase area (not likely) there is one other thing to check. Let us know.

[jacksonm30354]

I would check the wiring of the dryer cord as well. Maybe one of the wires is not connected correctly.

If the cord is wired correctly and the outlet is wired correctly, it would be a PITA, but try a different dryer.

[techrep]

I would check the wiring of the dryer cord as well. Maybe one of the wires is not connected correctly.

If the cord is wired correctly and the outlet is wired correctly, it would be a PITA, but try a different dryer.

Agreed, that's definitely one of the things to check.

[davring]

I am certain it is, as donshon stated, a ground differential problem. If it were enough of a voltage drop with the dryer running you would have other electrical devices having problems as well. This may not be the best suggestion, but I would try temporarily unhooking the grounds from your coax runs, if that cures the problem it should be corrected when the Slimline is installed.

[mchaney]

Thought about installing a clothesline? :D

I think the biggest clue so far might be that the problem goes away when the UPS is unplugged. In my mind, that leaves two possibilities. First, when you lose power, you normally don't lose ground but unplugging the UPS from the wall will cause the UPS to lose its ground reference and the only way it is going to get one is for it to "backtrack" through other connected equipment or the coax. That might force the ground to the same ground as that used by the dryer, thereby eliminating the differential. The other possibility might be that the dryer, due to a bad motor or bad ground, might be introducing horrible noise into the AC line. A power conditioner might solve it but if that's the problem, testing another dryer in there might make the most sense as you don't want to keep a faulty dryer. One other interesting test might be to turn off the breaker that feeds the UPS instead of unplugging it. That way the UPS will lose power but it will still keep its ground from the outlet it is plugged into. If the problem occurs when you hit the breaker but goes away when you unplug the UPS, it's pretty definitive that it's a ground differential.

Mike

[djwww98]

I would bet 99% it's a ground loop issue, due to dryer and/or dryer outlet wiring not right. If it was dragging down voltage enough to cause problems, you would definitely see the lights dim every time the dryer started. Heck, just turning on my Denon receiver draws down the voltage enough to see the lights dim, but it's not enough to cause any problems. It's a ground loop issue, not a low voltage issue. Very interesting. Glad you are keeping us updated.

[tncolts]

Was that a 3 wire grounded extension cord or 2 wire? And just to be sure I understand, you do have a 240 volt dryer, not a gas fired one?

It was a 3 wire grounded extension cord.

It is NOT a gas fired dryer.

[bnglbill]

There is a coaxial distribution box outside of your laundry room and it looks like the connection to your bedroom goes through that. can you disconnect the coaxial going through that box and try the reciever in your living room while the dryer is running just to rule out a problem with that box?

[tncolts]

There is a coaxial distribution box outside of your laundry room and it looks like the connection to your bedroom goes through that. can you disconnect the coaxial going through that box and try the reciever in your living room while the dryer is running just to rule out a problem with that box?

As a matter of fact I've already tried that; but the results were the same.

[donshan]

It was a 3 wire grounded extension cord.

It is NOT a gas fired dryer.

Thanks for the clarifications. My reason to ask about the extension cord is that when you connected to your neighbor's electrical system things worked. With the UPS connected with a 3 wire cord you transferred BOTH the 120v neutral white wire and the copper grounding wire of the UPS to a different power panel and grounding system not associated with your dryer. This proves to me that your issue is in the wiring of the dryer itself( and its neutral and grounding) or the grounding of your apartment wiring,or in the grounding of the satellite dish and cables. All should trace back to one common point at the power company entrance, but are they? Still a complex combination.

I am not familiar with how Apartment panels are wired. In a single dwelling house with one power panel all the white neutrals from 120 v outlets and the 240 volt dryer go to one neutral bus in the panel. The bare copper ( or green) ground wires to a second connection bus, but these two are bolted together and both grounded to the power company ground at the entrance point. However in an apartment I suspect you have your own meter and breakers and the grounding may be wired differently. Where is the power breaker for the dryer? Is that breaker in YOUR panel, or in a second panel somewhere else? If your receivers are on one electrical panel and the dryer is on different electrical panel, then I see yet another question involving the apartment complex's grounding between the the two panels as a possible factor. Did you try plugging your UPS into an 120 volt outlet in the laundry room that should be wired to the same panel as the dryer? If the problem remains this dual power panel issue (if it is even there!) could be eliminated. If using an outlet in the laundry room for the UPS cures the problem this points to a wiring issue in the building electrical panels that will take an electrician to sort out.

However, the main thing to check is that the dryer itself is wired correctly to its plug . It would help for you to let us know if it is a 3 wire outlet in the laundry room and 3 wire dryer cable, or if it is a newer 4 outlet dryer wall plug ( 2 AC lines-black & red @240 volts, 1 neutral, 1 green ground) which requires a 4 wire dryer cable to match. Also as suggested above it is very important that the grounding of the dryer match your power panel. For example, in the pictures I linked above older dryers grounded the dryer case with a strap to the white neutral (3 wires), but the new ones ground the dryer case for safety with a fourth ground wire, and the neutral is not grounded in the dryer using this strap. You need to verify the dryer cord connections inside the dryer.

You have the possibility in a multiple unit apartment for more than one grounding point. If that happens, electricity can flow through the grounding system. This is notorious for producing 60 Hz hum in audio systems, and a similar ground current could be affecting your multiswitch. At least that is my hypothesis! :)

[K4SMX]

........ This proves to me that your issue is in the wiring of the dryer itself( and its neutral and grounding) or the grounding of your apartment wiring,or in the grounding of the satellite dish and cables. All should trace back to one common point at the power company entrance, but are they? Still a complex combination.......
I suspect this problem would be eliminated, if he would, just for drill, get a long roll of any old kind of wire and connect one after another to the dish, the multi-switch and its a.c. outlet, the grounding block, the coax dist. panel, and finally loop under one of the screws on the cover to the electrical panel box.

[donshan]

I suspect this problem would be eliminated, if he would, just for drill, get a long roll of any old kind of wire and connect one after another to the dish, the multi-switch and its a.c. outlet, the grounding block, the coax dist. panel, and finally loop under one of the screws on the cover to the electrical panel box.

Yes, information about how the satellite system and cables are grounded has not been described yet, although I would use easily available proper grounding wire. This is a suspect especially since this Apt had two different installs at different times which raises a red flag to me to check for possibly two separate ground points- a NO-NO! The test you suggest would be informative, but putting the ground under the panel cover screw does not meet code since an approved grounding fitting is needed. Better to attach the new common ground wire with a proper split bolt fitting to the main ground wire where the power company lines enter the building. Typically there is a heavy ground wire to a long ground rod driven into the earth there.

The dryer internal wiring also needs to be checked too just to be sure it is done right.

[K4SMX]

..... but putting the ground under the panel cover screw does not meet code since an approved grounding fitting is needed. Better to attach the new common ground wire with a proper split bolt fitting to the main ground wire where the power company lines enter the building. Typically there is a heavy ground wire to a long ground rod driven into the earth there.
This was just for the purpose of running a quick and easy test (see above, "just for drill"), and was in now way designed to be a permanent fix.

The dryer internal wiring also needs to be checked too just to be sure it is done right.
There's NO question about that!

[donshan]

This was just for the purpose of running a quick and easy test (see above, "just for drill"), and was in now way designed to be a permanent fix.


Yes, I understood you were just proposing a test, not the fix and I did not mean to imply any criticism- we are in complete agreement!:)

I note that there have been over 1500 views of this thread and I just wanted to be sure others who read the suggestions understand permanent install grounding issues if they apply them to their own systems .

I find this obscure problem very interesting because the solution needs to be found, and knowing what went wrong in this install could help a lot of people reading this thread.

I hope the solution is found and gets posted back here soon to help others, including me since I may be adding a multiswitch in the near future and will be revising my grounding system when I add the additional receiver which will also have an OTA RG6 that needs a ground too. .:)

Edit: I am waiting for the SWM to decide how to do mine.

[K4SMX]

.....I find this obscure problem very interesting because the solution needs to be found, and knowing what went wrong in this install could help a lot of people reading this thread......
I totally agree, and I'll be very interested in what happens when someone thoroughly examines the wiring of that dryer all the back to the breaker panel. There's definitely something wrong with that wiring and/or the dryer itself, and so it needs to be examined for safety reasons, if for nothing else. It is very illustrative, however, of the kind of problems which can arise when the rest of the system is not properly grounded at every step of the way. You can always appear to get things working without proper grounding, but you're asking for trouble from a variety of sources, some of them very unpleasant!

[donshan]

I totally agree, and I'll be very interested in what happens when someone thoroughly examines the wiring of that dryer all the back to the breaker panel. There's definitely something wrong with that wiring and/or the dryer itself, and so it needs to be examined for safety reasons, if for nothing else. It is very illustrative, however, of the kind of problems which can arise when the rest of the system is not properly grounded at every step of the way. You can always appear to get things working without proper grounding, but you're asking for trouble from a variety of sources, some of them very unpleasant!

We both have safety concerns here! :eek2: I have held off mentioning the potential safety issue of aluminum dryer wiring, since that problem could cause problems with the dryer too and no dryer operating problems have been reported and this thread is primarily about the D* receiver malfunctioning issue when the dryer comes on . However I would feel very badly if this were an aluminum wiring issue and a fire developed without my having warned about it.

When aluminum wire cable is used to wire to the dryer plugs it is essential that a corrosion resistant paste be used at the connections in both the panel and plugs. I am not up on the latest codes. However, aluminum wiring for regular 120 circuits was allowed around 1965 to 1973 ( and then outlawed for safety reasons) but has been allowed for range and dryer circuits at other times and places. I personally feel aluminum wire should never be used in home circuits, although it is widely used for main power lines where pros do the installs and use correct methods.

The problem is that, if the corrosion prevention paste is not used properly, aluminum corrosion occurs in the plug electrical connections, resulting in a white aluminum oxide powder on the wire that does not conduct electricity. This leads to increased resistance, a voltage drop in the dryer circuits, electrical arcing and heat in the connections and in extreme cases, a fire! I would recommend an inspection of the dryer outlet plugs by a qualified electrician to check if they are copper or aluminum wires and check the connections. If this apartment dates back to the 1965-1973 era even 120 v circuits might be suspect.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/recogniz.htm

Overheated, burned multi-strand aluminum wire in this electric panel confirms that even contemporary practice of using multi-strand aluminum wiring in buildings, typically for single-use circuits like air conditioning, electric ranges, or clothes dryers, is still vulnerable to burnouts.