Am I the only one contemplating jumping?

[andrzejpw]

Am I the only one that is contemplating jumping ship and going back to cable? :( It seems as if the failure of the merger has made Charlie change into, for a lack of a better description, a pretty bitter person. With the possibility of dropping TNT, NESN, and no new programming coming in the forseable future, I think I maybe running back to cable. Anyone else a bit disappointed? When my 1 yr contract for the 501 expires in the next few months, I'm seriously going to consider a change. . .

[boba]

You sound like a newbie the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Nobody is twisting your arm to stay but most of us like our DBS whether it is DISH or DirecTV, if you like cable be our guest and go back.

[andrzejpw]

Sorry, I didn't really want to make this sound like a troll. I've been with Dish for 3 years now. I delt with some of the inconvienences. But its seems now that even Charlie is giving up.

[TNGTony]

It's just the oposite. TNT and NESN are proposing enormous rate hike to Dish. Dish will eventually have no choice but to pass them on to us. Some companies will roll over and play dead and just have the rate hikes (by the programmers) shoved up their........... Some companies may not pass the costs on directly to the subscriber, but then the expense comes off the bottom line. And some companies that are deep in the red can only do that for so long before they have to sell out AND raise their rates to customers without massive subsidies from parent groups.

Charlie is fighting it tooth and nail. One of the tactics he uses that some people just don't understand, is to let the customers know what is going on. TNT ***MAY*** be leaving the line-up for 8 million viewers. That means that TNT could lose 8 million eyeballs, lower ratings and not get the fees from the lost viewers. Dish will get bad press. But how good will the press be when the rates are hiked up to us subscribers yet again?

I say GOOD FOR HIM! He's *NOT* given up. He is still fighting to provide a good service at a fair price while at the same time keeping the company stable.

See ya
Tony

[John Corn]

Let's wait till after Jan 1 to see what happens with TNT or NESN.
Actually I quit excited the merger is dead, now Charlie can get on with buisness as usual. Charlie has money to spend now. :righton:

[tampa8]

If it is for the reasons you stated, then yes you are the only one. There may be other reasons to switch back to the Dark Side, but I also want Charlie to fight to keep prices down.

[raj2001]

It's just the oposite. TNT and NESN are proposing enormous rate hike to Dish.

Is there solid proof of this anywhere Tony? Can you provide a link?

[TNGTony]

http://www.motorsportstv.com/tbs.htm

Report: TNT May Withhold NASCAR Programming From Operators Who Don't Pay More

This could get ugly. Multichannel News reports that Turner Network Television is looking for at least a 2-cent-per-year increase over at least a five-year period -- and it is threatening to withhold marquee programming if it doesn’t get it -- as part of an initial new rate-card pitch to operators, several executives have said.

Operators are reporting that TNT, which currently costs around 70 cents per subscriber, is pitching a "TNT Plus" package: a five- to six-year agreement that calls for a rate increase of around 2 cents to 5 cents each year to help subsidize costs for recent, expensive and high-profile programming acquisitions.

TNT’s current affiliate deal with several operators expires at year’s end. For operators with long-term carriage deals that extend beyond 2002, TNT hopes to renegotiate to reflect terms of the TNT Plus agreement.

"Under the new deal, they would have the right to black out some TNT Plus programming without providing any substitute programming," one MSO programming executive said. Although it’s unclear exactly what programs would be subject to blackout, some operators believe it will most likely include games from the network’s new six-year, $2.2 billion National Basketball Association deal. "TNT could also choose to withdraw its popular National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing programming," says the report.

TNT representatives would not comment on the network’s negotiations with cable operators. (6/24)

http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=story_stocks&articleId=CA253662&pubdate=10/18/2002&stt=001&display=searchResults (requires subscription)

TNT’s strategy of increasing license fees within its existing carriage deals by shifting valuable programming to a new pseudo-network could change the industry's dynamics.

another article in Multi-Channel news:

Turner Network Television's strategy of increasing license fees within its existing carriage deals by shifting valuable programming to a new pseudo-network could, if successful, change the dynamics of already complex and tense contract talks with operators, industry executives said. Looking to extract a 10 percent rate hike from existing affiliates in the middle of multiyear contracts, Turner ...

http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/general/story/5840906

...Expectedly, the current effort now focuses on the TV partners and their ability to recoup their respective rights fees. Turner Broadcasting is selling "TNT Plus" in an effort to receive a 10 percent rate increase from existing affiliates as a result of the large number of NBA games that they are showing. DirecTV is speaking with NBA TV to craft a larger relationship that could have a hand in redefining the sports cable/network balance for years to come. ...

I can find a few more if you wish on TNT.

NESN is a little tougher, but if you want me to I'll do the same thing.

I don't make things up. Reality is always stranger than fiction. :)

See ya
Tony

[rowdymon]

I'm not just contemplating it; I AM jumping ship. I hate losing CBS-HD but I can live with it. Everything else I can get with Directv.

[Kevin]

Before you blame Charlie for the TNT/NESN mess and jump back to cable, please consider this:

If Charlie decides to keep TNT and NESN, the costs incurred from keeping these two channels will have to be passed on to the subscribers through a rate hike, which will absolutely piss everyone off. If he decides to drop the two channels, there won't be any rate increases but everyone will still hate him anyway.

Whichever path Charlie chooses, he loses. Poor Charlie. :(

You have to appreciate the fight that Charlie is putting up. Most cable companies just take it in the butt from programmers and immediately pass the extra cost to the customers.

[Jacob S]

Charlie cannot raise his programming price every single year. It would be above the rate of inflation in which he kept showing us info about on chats in the past. After that the rate increases came. It did not raise for several years then all of a sudden they started coming.

Charlie cannot and will not give up. He still have a successful company to be proud of. Sure he is disapointed but just think of how far he has come these past 5 or so years. There will be more great opportunities in the future.

There may be a better chance for this to happen a couple three years down the road and things may be shaped better to do it then than now. Maybe this is a good thing instead of a bad things. Sometimes when we think things are bad, good comes of it. You just never know what is going to happen.

[markh]

IMHO, the average Dish customer hasn't heard anything about this and probably won't. Everybody here pays more attention to this stuff because we're interested in DBS.

As far as Charlie being bitter, how does that affect anything? I bet most of the 8 million subs don't know who Charlie Ergen is. He's got to be disappointed about the merger. In the aftermath, since hindsight is 20-20, it's easy to say everybody knew it couldn't happen. But at the time there were plenty of industry analysts who thought it would. The guy put a company he built on the line to do it, and it was a big risk. There's not a gambler out there who wouldn't be disappointed after losing 600 million bucks on a bet.

[Jacob S]

He will get over it. We cannot have everything we want. I think there may be a better and bigger opportunity in the future, and this may turn out to be good for Charlie. When the next DBS service launches then the next competetor will be out there. I think there will probably be two more, CableVision @ 61.5 and the other one at 105.5. Some things just take time. So many things could change by then.

The bad thing that could happen is someone else could buy Direct out. Even then they could still merge with Dish so a different buyer of Direct dont mean it is not possible in the future. It will just take some more time.

[zimm0who0net]

Here's a link to the NESN charges. They're rising between 40 cents and 80 cents per subscriber per month!! However, NESN is frequently the most watched channel in all of Boston so it's difficult to believe that Charlie will drop it.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/330/business/NESN_s_rate_hikes_to_boost_cable_TV_bills+.shtml

[Marcus S]

I would not leave DBS unless the price mark began to exceed cable by at least 10%. The problem with cable is that they promise you many things you never get. The biggest issue is that digital cable is not 100% digital, most lower band channels are still snowy analog with only movie packages digital and with worse PQ than DBS. 2nd, nor would I be willing to pay $10 a mo to cable for a PVR. I know of many people that traded their DBS equipment in for the $200 credit, had cable installed and where pissed to heaven after they realized the lie, then experience the afful CS after the sale that cable companies are notorious for.

It's a great ploy for cable to get you to trade in your $400 investment because it makes it not cost effective for you to go back to DBS. Also consider that the like price package between DBS and cable may consist of the same number of channels with the difference that many channels in the cable package are actually community access and home shopping, so you are actually getting fewer premium channels for the experience. I still wonder why so many people forget so soon why they left cable to begin with. Ironically when I ordered a cable modem the cable company did not put a filter on the TV channels. I connect it up from time to time just to remind myself how bad cable really looks.

[fresco]

So our rates will go up if they keep NESN?... So the NY NJ area people might have to pay more because of this?...If Dish can't afford to get the Yes Network then how are they going to afford keeping NESN... It seems unfair that they would keep NESN and not even try to get the Yes Network... Don't ya think?

[TV38]

Fresco - I don't get your post. The thread is that Dish MAY NOT keep NESN because of the price increase. Of course none of us knows what will happen, but if the .40 to .80 per subscriber increase is correct, I doubt Dish will keep them. However, I do see this as different from YES. NESN is already on the system and it would mean taking away this station, whereas YES just has never been offered.

I should add, even though we might have a contract with DISH that does not guarantee stations will always remain, my father-in-law is a civil litigator, and feels a good case can be made to be let out of a contract with DISH if they do drop NESN because this isn't just any station being dropped, but one where 1/2 of a major program (for New England) can only be seen. (I.E. Red Sox)

[gowilk]

I'm far from Charlie's biggest fan especially when the merger is discussed or their declining customer service is brought up but Charlie is right and always has been right about one thing... the only true language and leverage that you have with the programmers is to threaten to drop them ... cable companies in many cases have little incentive since programmers own them or have substantial interest so programming charge increases are jest intra-corporate pass throughs to be collected from customers. Charlie has continually taken the stance that if you won't charge reasonably you'll lose our 8 million customers and he has been willing to take the heat. Last year we went through that with ABC Family and espn classic and when espn classic went off for awhile I found that i didn't actually watch that channel that much so when it came back they got very little of my watching time.

I realize NESN is peculiar situation because it is a regional sports network but losing TNT would have little impact at my house and rather than pay 25 or 50 cents much additional ....TAKE IT OFF and let them explain to their advertisers why their penetration is lower by 8 million than USA (their biggest competitor). Either they'll come to their senses in pretty quick order or they'll drop into second tier cable network status with WE, TRIO and some of the other networks that aren't on the primary tier everywhere.

The consumers real enemy all along has been the programmers who jack their prices up 10-20 percent every year and try to bundle things together to force everyone to pay for things they don't want. Most of us don't realize how much consolidation has actually occurred in the programming world and how much of that has been to our detriment. Essentially all networks are owned by either Time/warner, Disney/abc, NBC, Fox or cbs/mtv.

Go for it, Charlie, America will eventually benefit.

[James_F]

So what, you are left with a few crappy channels. Its time for Dish to get with the program. Now if DirecTV, Dish and cable operators were to get together and fight this, then I would say go for it, but for one provider to fight is suicide for them. AOL/TW, Disney, NBC and Discovery own most cable channels so they are in the drivers seat. Take them away and you have what? Sky Angel? Makes me shiver... :(

[Marcus S]

No! I don't want to pay for out of control price increases because a few people would sell their sole just to have a few additional channels. If you feel that you are being dissed by DBS in general then you "should" switch back to cable, so only "you" pay for the price of crappy service, can expect 5%+ price increases annual, pay 7% in taxes,and can come back here and whine and moan about it.

As far as ABC/Disney and the networks that they own, I could only hope that ABC was an option in the local and distant nets packages where I could just say no, and only pay $4.99 for the remaining nets. And it's funny that ABC/Disney has managed to shun both Focus on the Family and Baptist faiths while many of the religious are the most upset about E* wrestling with Disney/ABC over contract disputes.

SkyAngle actually offers good programming for people that are home schooling their kids. Like anything you need to preview the content as a parent before your kids watch it and if it's not your cup of tea then you shouldn't bash the rest of us for it because you don't care for it. It is a separate service you can choose to pay for or not. No one is twisting your arm, nor is it a "needless usage of DBS bandwidth". That is the great thing about alacarte choices vs I want it all and everyone else should pay for it.

[TNGTony]

I really wonder what the subscriber growth numbers for this year were between Dish (no YES) and DirecTV (with YES). I want to know just exactly how important it really was to most new subscribers.

Anyway...I like the fact that E* is standing up to these continuing rate hikes! Remember that the cable station does lose viewers. Maybe not permenantly, but 8 million subscribed households (16-24 million sets of eyeballs) is a lot for a network to account for in their ratings and ad revenues. Not to mention the loss of the existing subscription money...lets see 20 cents a subscriber per month times 8 million...oh only a measely $1,600,000 a MONTH the network has to do without.

Yes Dish may lose some customers in the process....but if Dish picks its fights well, this is a winning strategy.

See ya
Tony

[Chris Freeland]

I agree with you Tony, this is why I think come January 1, we will still have TNT. NESN does seam to have a little stronger position because this channel seams to be so popular in New England states, however it is still in the best interest of both E* and NESN to come to an equitable agreement by or shortly after January 1.

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by TNGTony
I really wonder what the subscriber growth numbers for this year were between Dish (no YES) and DirecTV (with YES). I want to know just exactly how important it really was to most new subscribers.

I mentioned this in another thread, my brother switched from Dish to DirecTV solely because of YES. He would've paid a rate increase to get it, but that wasn't an option. So that's at least one existing sub they lost, and losing existing subs is worse than losing new subs, IMO.

Dennis

[gowilk]

i understand what u said but some of these negotiations come down to number of customers and emphasis. When negotiating with a Regional Sports Network D* has significant advantages over e* as D* has 3 million more subscribers/potential customers and d* has a reputation as a more sports-friendly network while e* reputation is more as a internation network carrier. Additionally don't forget the GM/Hughes connection which can serve as an advantage in negotiations.

These factors along with d* reputation as quiet negotiators while Charlie is flamboyant give a different picture to consumers and networks. In any case losing customers to d* over sports issues is something that e* has been doing for a long time so I doubt that your single issue is going to cause a drastic change to their business model.

[greg_n]

I think Charlie need to read the book "The Art of Negotiating"...
the merger was a problem... Charlie has always had a problem negotiating programming. ;)

He needs to hire a very good looking Woman from a Ivy League law school for PR and his negotiations.

[scooper]

Actually, most of the programming negotiation is being done by Michael Schwimmer (sp?). Michael reports directly to Charlie, and I'm pretty sure Michael is in no danger of losing his job. Mike probably keeps things quiet, until there is a holdup like this, where he does like any good employee and lets his boss know what is going on. It's Charlie's decision on the publicity for something like this.

[Ronmort]

I think we all pay for services we hardly ever watch. There are many channels I haven't spent five minutes watching yet. I also wonder what the costs of putting up all those local network channels cost. I don't get locals from Dish. I am still glad all these channels are on the system because it attracts more customers who might like that programming.

Taking channels off the system makes Dish Network less atractive to some, and these customers will either go to DTV or cable. The less customers Dish gets, the less negotiating power Dish has. I know I couldn't give a Dish certificate away around here because Dish will not carry the YES Network. How many times did that silly Ergen state on those chats that he wanted the merger to increase numbers to be able to have more negotiating power with programming providers. Despite the recent gains, if NESN and TNT goes, he will lose some customers and some potential customers may find Dish less attractive.

[scooper]

Oh, and if we DO lose TNT - well, I'll just have to catch the NASCAR races on the radio that weekend...

[kariato]

Charlie has long stated that he is the low cost provider in the industry, plus he just lost a $600M gamble. I imagine he looks at the numbers and calculates
1) What is the profit loss if my programming cost rise by 5%
balanced against how many subscribers will I lose if I drop TNT.
2) What is the profit loss if I lose subscribers if I raise my rates by $2 instead of $1 next time.

I hardly ever watch TNT but a sizable rate increase may make cable much more attractive. I'd be much unhappier about the loss of IFC,Encore or TMC since I'm a movie buff. Charlie has never focused on Sports centric customers but rather on value centric customers. I think that we will probably keep TNT but I doubt we will get TNT+.

The news that I was most unhappy about was that he would not consider TRIO or PBS kids. I know of several people who just get Direct TV for PBS kids.

:hi:

[sorahl]

I find comments like "Dish can't afford...."
Who do you think pays for thiese channels? It's not Dish, it is us! I dropped cable because I couldn't afford the double digit increases each year. So I don't have the Yes network.. neither does the cable company I left. What is the result??? I spend more time playing with my son and being with my wife. Hmmm wonder who won out in the end??? Not Steinbrenner. If we lose TNT will the world end? NO, but I'd rather lose it than pay more for it than is neccessary.... I am tired of all the crap that goes on with these channels because they went and bought some sports package. I don't care, I dont' watch those channels when the 'sports' come on! I am NOT anti sports but they don't rule my life. I would rather watch a movie or a taped show with my wife and son than watch a baseball, basketball, floosieball, or hockey by myself.
Go Charlie, don't take the crap from these broadcasters. WHO is the customer here, US or the Stations?????? If they don't have us they don't have anything....

John

[timr21]

Can somebody tell me what the heck the "YES" network is? Why is it sooooo great? If it's soooo great, then why haven't I heard of it?!?! I think I could care less if Dish has it or not!

I'm a huge NASCAR fan...and it will definitely suck to lose those races (granted it's less than 40% of the NASCAR schedule) on TNT, but I agree with Scooper...the NASCAR radio networks are great AND free. I'll just catch those races on the radio - or go to a friend's house that is paying confiscatory rates for cable and watch TNT there!

SCREW YOU TNT!!!!! I'll keep my money....thank you!

TimR

[normang]

Tim.. Yes is a Yankee's network..

Perhaps Dish needs to create yet another tier of programming and add $5+ a month for a set of channels that only certain people want or more to see how much people are willing to pay for some of this regional programming and leave the rest of the rates alone..

[jeffwtux]

People, there is something that nobody has mentioned here and that's regional marketshare. Have any of you seen a map of US showing the marketshare that DBS has in each state? It's by far the lowest in the crowded Northeast. So, if you are Charlie Ergen, why would you overpay for YES and NESN when you aren't really risking or would gain that many customers.

[sorahl]

Normang,

Steinbrenner and YES won't let him do that. Part of the contract they insist upon is that YES is part of the basic package (like Top 100). They refuse to allow it to be A La Carte which would reflect a much lower share and pull in less money for them. There is only a small small segment of the population that would pay extra for sports only networks. Nothing against that, just as there are only a small portion of people who pay for any other separate channel.

john

[dbronstein]

Jeffwtux,

DBS might have it's lowest market share in the northeast, but that's where the largest population base is. A lower market share there is still more gross subscribers than a higher market share in the upper Midwest or some other places.

Massachusetts, home of the Red Sox, has 6.3 million people, the13th most populous state. Add in Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine and Rhode Island and you have about another 4.1 million people in Red Sox country, a total of almost 10.4 million New Englanders. Then you've got another 3.4 million in Connecticut, 12.2 mil in Pennsylvania, 8.4 mil in NJ, and 18.9 million in New York, although a good chunk of them are in NYC and can't get DBS. But that's still over 53 million people in the Northeast, many who are Red Sox or Yankee fans.

On the other side, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Montana and Idaho combined have a little over 5 million people. Throw in Colorado, Utah and Arizona and you're still only at about 15 million. And you can even add in Oklahoma, New Mexico, Kansas, Iowa, Nevada and Arkansas and you're up to 30 million.

So if you're Charlie, it makes a hell of a lot of sense to keep NESN and get YES so he can try to attract some of those 53 million people in the northeast.

Dennis

[Mike123abc]

Well you have 30 million people that are more likely to have bad cable service or no cable service.

But, I do think he will keep NESN, he is just negotiating. He might even get YES now that the merger is 100% done. But, I seriously doubt that he will lose millions of subscibers by not having YES.

[dbronstein]

I don't think the losses from not having YES will be in the millions, but they will be significant. They will have a very hard time getting new subs in the NY/NJ/Conn area without it.

Dennis

[dlsnyder]

Originally posted by sorahl

Steinbrenner and YES won't let him do that. Part of the contract they insist upon is that YES is part of the basic package (like Top 100). They refuse to allow it to be A La Carte which would reflect a much lower share and pull in less money for them. There is only a small small segment of the population that would pay extra for sports only networks. Nothing against that, just as there are only a small portion of people who pay for any other separate channel.



I guess I might be an example of why the RSNs insist on this provision in their carriage agreements. I wouldn't pay one cent extra for FSW and FSW2 if they were A La Carte. Yet as they are included in the AT100 package I actually find myself tuning in from time to time for the Angels or the occasional Kings or Ducks game. This is probably what they are counting on - a la carte means zero occasional viewers. Only real hardcore sports fans would buy these packages.

[jerryez]

When I was on c-band, all programming was alacart. If you wanted a program, you subscribed to it. If Charlie would set up all these channels that are asking for major rate increases as alacart channels, then he would see how many people are willing to pay for each of them. The channel would only get a percent of the money for those that chose to subscribe. I think that most of them would lose money from the current system, since now they are getting a percentage of 8 million subscribers.
Personally, I would not subscribe to Yes, NESN,TNT or probably 120 of the 150 channels offered. I never watch them, My c-band bill was very low. Mostly movie channels and about 10 basics.
Let's go alacart Charlie.

[dbronstein]

That's a great idea, except he can't do it. As has been pointed out, most of the channels have deals where they have to be part of packages. That's the sticking point with YES (one of them anyway). If Charlie tried to have every channel a la carte, the networks would just tell him that they can't carry them anymore. And Charlie would be left with nothing.

Dennis