Do you think your dish is immune to lighting? Think again…

[sptrout]

If you think that your dish does not need surge protection or grounding, think again. As you will see in the link below (watch video also) a lighting bolt hit a tree yesterday then bounced over and struck a satellite dish (you will see the cable burns in the video). Luckily, most of the family was in the garage away from the antenna system, but the family pet was not so lucky and was killed in the kitchen (apparently was touching a metal object). No way to tell from this story if this satellite system was either grounded or protected by surge protection, but a good reminder that when lighting strikes nearby, nothing is safe.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5695833

[JDubbs413]

Well if it was grounded it probably wasn't properly. But even at my house looking at our ground, it is only going to send so much electricity to the ground. If we took a direct hit we would see the same damage I think. You really need a good grounding.

[hbkbiggestfan]

Well, I have expierience in this. My dish is grounded. A couple months after It was installed I strongly believe it was struck by lightning. We had some severe T-storms in my area through a month or two. One night I heard a loud crashing lighting bolt while I was sleeping. The next day or two I turn on my HR20 and it's pretty much dead. But I have it connected to a surge protector through the electrical outlet and none of my other electronics went bad. So I had a new HR20 replace the old one. Now just last month when the new HD's rolled out I wasn't getting all of the new HDs. And I was not recieveing signal on the Odd transponders for 103b. Technician came over and we discovered it was a bad lnb. So I beleive my dish and LNB were struck by lightning and surged to my old HR20 thus killing the HR20 and one LNB.

[leww37334]

The only real protection against a direct lightning strike is a good insurance policy. Consider Directv's protection plan, if you think you are vulnerable.

[sptrout]

The only real protection against a direct lightning strike is a good insurance policy. Consider Directv's protection plan, if you think you are vulnerable.

Agreed! What is really sad about this case is that if the family had been in the main house, there may have been some of them killed, and this was from an indirect strike. Much of the US is subject to lighting strikes, but most folks never consider that they could be in danger just sitting in their house.

[Ken S]

The only real protection against a direct lightning strike is a good insurance policy. Consider Directv's protection plan, if you think you are vulnerable.

DirecTV's protection plan won't cover you against a lightning strike. It specifically exempts "Acts of God". You want to get a good homeowner's/tenant's policy for such coverage.

[hbkbiggestfan]

DirecTV's protection plan won't cover you against a lightning strike. It specifically exempts "Acts of God". You want to get a good homeowner's/tenant's policy for such coverage.

Hmmm, some people don't believe in God however. Are they still covered?:D

[raoul5788]

Proper grounding will not protect you from lightning. It's not designed to. It will keep static charges from building up in your system.

[aim2pls]

you get hit .. NO grounding will protect you .... notice in the video .. other houses were hit ... and nothing was said about the TV

[syphix]

Proper grounding will not protect you from lightning. It's not designed to. It will keep static charges from building up in your system.Correct. If you're struck, that little copper wire is NOT going to deflect enough of the bolt away from the inside of your house. It's only there to hopefully REDUCE the likelihood of a strike by dissipating the static electric build-up on your dish, hopefully making it less of a target.

[Stuart Sweet]

True. Nothing a consumer can do will avert a full-on lightning strike, just make it less likely.

[JeffBowser]

I was gonna say, but it is has been covered, I see. I'll say it anyway, again - grounding is not a lightning strike protection measure. The only way that may work is if you suspend your house inside a massive Faraday cage. :lol:

[M3 Pete]

Consider the amount of power in a direct lightning strike:

Between 100 million and 1 billion volts, and between 10,000 to 200,000 amps.

If you think anything is going to stop that, you are delusional. It will almost certainly arc though any kind of surge protector and destroy whatever is connected to the dish. Grounding may reduce the amount of power hitting the surge protector, but I doubt it could handle enough of it to matter.

Now, indirect hits are another matter. Grounding and surge protectors may certainly help, and I would use them.

[PoitNarf]

This is the only device that is almost guaranteed to work under 1.21 gigawatts:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/791-flux.jpg

:lol:

[mexican-bum]

Hmmm, some people don't believe in God however. Are they still covered?:D

Way back when I used to work for directv they were trying to get that changed as some people were upset about the wording. I believe the proposed change was "act of nature", I say who cares, we all know what it means. But thats my opinion:)

[M3 Pete]

This is the only device that is almost guaranteed to work under 1.21 gigawatts:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/791-flux.jpg

:lol:you'll need a wild-haired professor to hook it up for you though.

[Clato]

The only real protection against a direct lightning strike is a good insurance policy. Consider Directv's protection plan, if you think you are vulnerable.

I did consider Directv protection plan & I definately do have it,it is also a good investment but still believe in the surge protector for 'some protection because of the "'protection plan/warr it offeres.

Apologies to other members, didn't know another member already post this
clato

[Clato]

just have to be carefull when out & about, God's aim is getting good with those bolts.

[mchaney]

Correct. If you're struck, that little copper wire is NOT going to deflect enough of the bolt away from the inside of your house. It's only there to hopefully REDUCE the likelihood of a strike by dissipating the static electric build-up on your dish, hopefully making it less of a target.

I don't agree with this. My aerial HD antenna on the chimney at my old house was grounded via a copper grounding wire directly to a grounding pole on the ground. Lightning struck the antenna and you could follow the burn marks: black all along the length of the ground wire to the post. The coax cable attached to the antenna was undamaged but the copper grounding wire was toast. Had it not been for that wire, I'm convinced the coax and likely some of the house wiring would have burned instead. BTW, I believe grounding the dish actually makes it more likely to be hit. Reducing static charge is a separate issue as the static charge is not what attracts the lightning.

Mike

[PoitNarf]

I don't agree with this. My aerial HD antenna on the chimney at my old house was grounded via a copper grounding wire directly to a grounding pole on the ground. Lightning struck the antenna and you could follow the burn marks: black all along the length of the ground wire to the post. The coax cable attached to the antenna was undamaged but the copper grounding wire was toast. Had it not been for that wire, I'm convinced the coax and likely some of the house wiring would have burned instead.

Each lightning strike is completely unique. Grounding MAY help in some situations, but as others have already mentioned here it is by no means any guaranteed protection against lightning.

[mchaney]

Each lightning strike is completely unique. Grounding MAY help in some situations, but as others have already mentioned here it is by no means any guaranteed protection against lightning.

Good point. And there are direct strikes and strikes by feeders that come off the main bolt. A grounding wire can help in the latter, which accounts for most lightning strikes.

Mike

[hilmar2k]

You'd be surprised how much current that little grounding wire can carry for a really short period of time. I've seen planty of reports of the entire strike being carried to ground entirely by the gorunding wire. Not that I would count on that, but it certainly can happen.

[PoitNarf]

I've seen planty of reports of the entire strike being carried to ground entirely by the gorunding wire.

Actually, lightning travels from the ground to the clouds (most of the time anyways).

[JeffBowser]

As I usually like to say, when I see a statement that appears to violate the very laws of physics, can you cite references ?

You'd be surprised how much current that little grounding wire can carry for a really short period of time. I've seen planty of reports of the entire strike being carried to ground entirely by the gorunding wire. Not that I would count on that, but it certainly can happen.

[n3ntj]

Nothing will prevent a lighting strike from doing damage or causing injury/death.. proper grounding will only help minimize damage in case of a nearby strike or built-up charge.

[mchaney]

As I usually like to say, when I see a statement that appears to violate the very laws of physics, can you cite references ?

Ever see the demonstration of how researchers force lightning to strike by sending a rocket up in the sky attached to a very thin wire on the order of filament gauge? The lightning follows the wire all the way to the ground. Of course, most of the wire is vaporized, but once the strike follows that path, it rarely jumps off to something else. Once lightning takes a particular path, it tends to follow that path until the charge dissipates. This has a technical term and it was mentioned on the show but I don't remember the term.

Mike

[bret4]

The ground wire may not take that kind of power but it may help redirect it to the path of least resistance before it is burned away.

Grounding does reduce the buildup of static charge in the hope of reducing the chance of a lightning strike on the item grounded. If all else fails it takes some of the power to ground.

[Kansas Zephyr]

Ever see the demonstration of how researchers force lightning to strike by sending a rocket up in the sky attached to a very thin wire on the order of filament gauge? The lightning follows the wire all the way to the ground. Of course, most of the wire is vaporized, but once the strike follows that path, it rarely jumps off to something else. Once lightning takes a particular path, it tends to follow that path until the charge dissipates. This has a technical term and it was mentioned on the show but I don't remember the term.

stepped leader, then dart leaders

[JeffBowser]

All that wire did was create the initial (and artificial) stepped leader. After that, the wire had nothing to do with anything - as you pointed out, it was vaporized. The bolt is now following the charged path through nothing but thin air.

Nice article on the basics here: http://science.howstuffworks.com/lightning.htm

Ever see the demonstration of how researchers force lightning to strike by sending a rocket up in the sky attached to a very thin wire on the order of filament gauge? The lightning follows the wire all the way to the ground. Of course, most of the wire is vaporized, but once the strike follows that path, it rarely jumps off to something else. Once lightning takes a particular path, it tends to follow that path until the charge dissipates. This has a technical term and it was mentioned on the show but I don't remember the term.

Mike

[Kansas Zephyr]

All that wire did was create the initial (and artificial) stepped leader.
+1

[aim2pls]

Actually, lightning travels from the ground to the clouds (most of the time anyways).

AHHHHHHHH S O M E O N E ...."finally" understands

[Kansas Zephyr]

AHHHHHHHH S O M E O N E ...."finally" understands

Well, the current flow can be from:
1) Cloud to Cloud CC
2) Intracloud IC
3) Cloud to Ground CG
4) Ground to Cloud GC

[joe diamond]

I'm gonna add this thread to my notes:

We needed this. My favorite expert..and we all have them..told me the ground wire would just "burn open" before the majority of the pulse followed the wire.
I have see this.

I did once pass on an installation. I told the call center the third floor apartment was impossible to ground per local code. I then noted that
the Dish to ground block dual cable would need to be 150 feet long and then
return to the apartment, exceeding the practical limits of the system (300+ft dish to receiver).

The CSR just got another tech to go attach the dish to the third floor roof and drop the line into the customer's apartment; no ground.

Business as usual. It is still there. Is there a lesson?

Joe

[JeffBowser]

:D Yeah the NEC is nice, but it sure can be impractical in real life sometimes :lol:

I'm gonna add this thread to my notes:

We needed this. My favorite expert..and we all have them..told me the ground wire would just "burn open" before the majority of the pulse followed the wire.
I have see this.

I did once pass on an installation. I told the call center the third floor apartment was impossible to ground per local code. I then noted that
the Dish to ground block dual cable would need to be 150 feet long and then
return to the apartment, exceeding the practical limits of the system (300+ft dish to receiver).

The CSR just got another tech to go attach the dish to the third floor roof and drop the line into the customer's apartment; no ground.

Business as usual. It is still there. Is there a lesson?

Joe

[inothome]

FWIW you can see the grounding block in the video, so there was some grounding anyway.

[Clato]

hello all i just got ogg the phone with the Tec rep and gave hime this cernarion,(ie lightening hitting tree, jumping to dish & into home,) and was told,"'that would be like a direct hit or a near hit and NO nothing that has been made would protect you, in a case like that is why we offer the lifetime $125,000.00 connected equipment guarantee in writing

I purchased mine in May this year
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7041943&st=cyberpower&lp=5&type=product&cp=1&id=1099396538742


so if your going to get a "surge protector" get one that has a connected equipment guarantee with it.
clato

[aim2pls]

looking at the video closely ... you will see that the dish is UNTOUCHED .... looks more like the tree took the hit ... then to the ground to the house (in total) then up the coax to the grounding block (scorched area) then back down to the ground ... aka PROTECTING the dish ....... news media are "actors" reporting their opinions ..... in this case grounding the dish did little to nothing

[hilmar2k]

Actually, lightning travels from the ground to the clouds (most of the time anyways).

I said it was carried to ground, not to "the" ground.

[jganson]

Well, I have expierience in this. My dish is grounded. A couple months after It was installed I strongly believe it was struck by lightning.

If your dish or LNB took a direct hit, they would almost certainly show damage. It's possible that the lightning strike led to your damaged LNB, but I doubt it was a direct hit if you don't see damage.

I was camping in Yellowstone when lightning hit a tree in my campsite. It traveled down the tree, through the roots and arced out of the ground in several places. In addition to hitting my legs, it also hit my truck (frying the computer) and an older tent with metal poles in the next campsite over. (3 different directions from the tree that was hit.) The truck and the tent pole each had a very distinct burn mark on them. (The tree itself exploded and the falling top portion missed killing the people in that tent by just a few feet.)

[ghostdog]

Consider the amount of power in a direct lightning strike:

Between 100 million and 1 billion volts, and between 10,000 to 200,000 amps.

If you think anything is going to stop that, you are delusional. It will almost certainly arc though any kind of surge protector and destroy whatever is connected to the dish. Grounding may reduce the amount of power hitting the surge protector, but I doubt it could handle enough of it to matter.

Now, indirect hits are another matter. Grounding and surge protectors may certainly help, and I would use them.

Any idea idea how tv, cellular and radio antenna's are protected?

[eandras]

Any idea idea how tv, cellular and radio antenna's are protected?


They are protected by halo grounds with ground wire that are cadmium welded to ground rods located around the tower (creating a circle). In addition the antenna lines are grounded every 10 feet using a ground kit that is connected to the copper shield in the cable. The lines that connect to the equipment all have polyphasers (lightning arrstors) on the return lines that do not allow power (lightning) to pass through. This system will help alleviate trouble but in the end the lightning damage would occur.


PS: Polyphasers will not work on the satellie lines. I tried and it would not pass the voltage through the line.

[joe diamond]

Here is more,

From another source...lightning rods and sailboat masts provide a "cone of protection" that goes out 45 degrees from the tip of the lightning rod / mast.
So, can one ground a system to a lightning rod and expect ok results?

Joe

[lowspeed]

Does this thoery make any sense?

By not grounding the dish, the lighting will "Prefer" not going through the dish, because its not the easiest route to the ground.

[JeffBowser]

I have never heard that. In fact, I would venture to say that that statement is guilty of violating laws of physics..... :D

jb

Here is more,

From another source...lightning rods and sailboat masts provide a "cone of protection" that goes out 45 degrees from the tip of the lightning rod / mast.
So, can one ground a system to a lightning rod and expect ok results?

Joe

[paulman182]

DirecTV's protection plan won't cover you against a lightning strike.

Do you know this for a fact or is this supposition? The plan specifically mentions power surges as being covered, and most damaging power surges are caused by lightning somewhere into the power grid.

[aim2pls]

Does this thoery make any sense?

By not grounding the dish, the lighting will "Prefer" not going through the dish, because its not the easiest route to the ground.


hundreds of thousands of dishes say yes

[lowspeed]

hundreds of thousands of dishes say yes

The question is, is it more likely for it to hit the dish grounded or not.

[aim2pls]

The question is, is it more likely for it to hit the dish grounded or not.


grounding a dish raises the ground potential to the dish (vs earth) .. if the dish is the highest point that is grounded ... wood is a very poor conductor ... then yes you are making it into a lightning rod

[JeffBowser]

On the other hand, if the dish is not grounded, it may have higher "electrical visibility", and we know that lightning is nothing more than "nature's" attempt to equalize charges......

grounding a dish raises the ground potential to the dish (vs earth) .. if the dish is the highest point that is grounded ... wood is a very poor conductor ... then yes you are making it into a lightning rod

[lowspeed]

This is a great idea for mythbusters.

[Phlakey]

Does this thoery make any sense?

By not grounding the dish, the lighting will "Prefer" not going through the dish, because its not the easiest route to the ground.

By not grounding the dish, you insure that any stray currents that my come in contact with it will go directly to your reciever.

Other ungrounded items on a roof that frequently recieve lightning strikes;

Metal fireplace chimneys and gas water heater vent pipes.

[lowspeed]

By not grounding the dish, you insure that any stray currents that my come in contact with it will go directly to your reciever.

Other ungrounded items on a roof that frequently recieve lightning strikes;

Metal fireplace chimneys and gas water heater vent pipes.


I think with the grounding or not your stuff is fried if i lighting hits it. no ?

[PR Buick]

Okay, I just realized that when my installer replaced my old dish last year with the 5LNB for my HR-20 setup, he didn't run a ground wire from the new one. The new dish is installed a foot or so closer to the box & multiswitch--he just cut the old cable and ran two new ones from the 5LNB, sans grounding wire.

I can see that the old cables are still up there, and their attached ground wire is still connected to the grounding block (that then connects to a post on our electrical meter.)

However, the coax for my internet connection also connects to this same grounding block and then goes into the same end of a diplexer that also meets up with one of the cables coming out of my multiswitch. (They go to a room with an SD receiver--I've got a splitter in the room) Since there is this roundabout grounding connection with the dish, through the multiswitch, is that enough? (Again, I don't know if it matters that the cable from the dish is going into the same side of the diplexer that has the grounded coax cable) OR, do I need to go ahead and see if I can connect my existing, stand-alone grounding wire that's just so much roof decoration? (Hope all that makes sense...)

Also--dumb question-- but if I go ahead connect the grounding cable to the dish, where does it attach? Is there a particular screw just for this? (I tried finding an installation manual on the D* website, but couldn't and it's not easy for me to get up there and take a look)

Thanks!

[Glidedon]

I connect my dish to a 1 iron.

Not even God can hit a 1 iron :-)

[joe diamond]

Okay, I just realized that when my installer replaced my old dish last year with the 5LNB for my HR-20 setup, he didn't run a ground wire from the new one. The new dish is installed a foot or so closer to the box & multiswitch--he just cut the old cable and ran two new ones from the 5LNB, sans grounding wire.

I can see that the old cables are still up there, and their attached ground wire is still connected to the grounding block (that then connects to a post on our electrical meter.)

However, the coax for my internet connection also connects to this same grounding block and then goes into the same end of a diplexer that also meets up with one of the cables coming out of my multiswitch. (They go to a room with an SD receiver--I've got a splitter in the room) Since there is this roundabout grounding connection with the dish, through the multiswitch, is that enough? (Again, I don't know if it matters that the cable from the dish is going into the same side of the diplexer that has the grounded coax cable) OR, do I need to go ahead and see if I can connect my existing, stand-alone grounding wire that's just so much roof decoration? (Hope all that makes sense...)

Also--dumb question-- but if I go ahead connect the grounding cable to the dish, where does it attach? Is there a particular screw just for this? (I tried finding an installation manual on the D* website, but couldn't and it's not easy for me to get up there and take a look)

Thanks!
==========
PR

On the mast base there may be a 3/16 hole for the self tapping green ground screw that is shipped with the dish. If not found just loosen one of the mast alignment bolts and feed the ground wire between the nut & the base. Tighten without breaking the bolt.
Using a dish attachment bolt is considered bad form.

Joe

[PR Buick]

==========
PR

On the mast base there may be a 3/16 hole for the self tapping green ground screw that is shipped with the dish. If not found just loosen one of the mast alignment bolts and feed the ground wire between the nut & the base. Tighten without breaking the bolt.
Using a dish attachment bolt is considered bad form.

Joe

Thanks!

[Greg Alsobrook]

i would rather lightning hit my dish.... would probably save a lot of damage to my house...

[K4SMX]

Here is more,

From another source...lightning rods and sailboat masts provide a "cone of protection" that goes out 45 degrees from the tip of the lightning rod / mast.
So, can one ground a system to a lightning rod and expect ok results?

Joe
This is actually quite well-established both in theory and in practice to the extent that probability tables are published at one and two standard deviations of probability for both 45 and 60 degree "cones of protection."

There have been a lot of things said in this thread with which I take exception, and I don't really want to debate each and every issue. Suffice it to say that for the very reason that lightning is so dangerous to life and property, there is a very large amount of published technical information regarding means of protection.

You will find that ungrounded outdoor antenna systems of any type are considered inherently dangerous, that there are well-established techniques for minimizing but not eliminating this danger, and that the more thoroughly you ground an antenna system (including its feed lines) the more protection you obtain for everything inside the "cone of protection."

Whenever I have made recommendations about this subject in these forums, it has always been with a view toward basic, standard procedures. You can always do more, and it's not rocket science: large conductors running by as straight a path possible to as large a dissipation grounding system as you can reasonably provide and NO available diversion paths once a strike occurs.

While it is true that lightning "only" kills about four or five hundred people per year in this country, many more are permanently injured, and it does a tremendous amount of property damage, including many homes burned to the ground.

[Greg Alsobrook]

hello all i just got ogg the phone with the Tec rep and gave hime this cernarion,(ie lightening hitting tree, jumping to dish & into home,) and was told,"'that would be like a direct hit or a near hit and NO nothing that has been made would protect you, in a case like that is why we offer the lifetime $125,000.00 connected equipment guarantee in writing

I purchased mine in May this year
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7041943&st=cyberpower&lp=5&type=product&cp=1&id=1099396538742


so if your going to get a "surge protector" get one that has a connected equipment guarantee with it.
clato

but i bet you would also have to have your coax run through the surge strip as well for you to quality... i'm not sure... but read the fine print... i don't like running my coax through surge strips/backups because i see a noticeable depreciation in quality...

[Clato]

By not grounding the dish, you insure that any stray currents that my come in contact with it will go directly to your reciever.

Other ungrounded items on a roof that frequently recieve lightning strikes;

Metal fireplace chimneys and gas water heater vent pipes.

==============================
What was it said about [B],"GOD himself couldn't sink the Titanic there isn't anything that is man/machine made that cannot be destroyed, by an act of GOD or Nature...

[mntmst]

They are protected by halo grounds with ground wire that are cadmium welded to ground rods located around the tower (creating a circle). In addition the antenna lines are grounded every 10 feet using a ground kit that is connected to the copper shield in the cable. The lines that connect to the equipment all have polyphasers (lightning arrstors) on the return lines that do not allow power (lightning) to pass through. This system will help alleviate trouble but in the end the lightning damage would occur.


PS: Polyphasers will not work on the satellie lines. I tried and it would not pass the voltage through the line.

Check these out: http://catalog.vincor.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PP-MDS24FF
http://www.polyphaser.com/productdata.aspx?class=mds

[ActiveHDdave]

i would rather lightning hit my dish.... would probably save a lot of damage to my house...

Problem is that lightning is looking for a ground and it might look through your house after it can't find a direct way through a proper ground.

[ActiveHDdave]

This reminds of the time our house got struck by lightning and it hit the Big Stick fiberglass antenna for our CB base station siting on top of our refrig.

Damages resulting from hit:
Holes in refrig to built in oven - one pathway to ground
Metal plaster lathe blown out in living room resulting in several softball size holes in the wall
Window frame on opposite side of house blown out - path way to ground
Holes in coax cable to romex wire in attic - pathway to ground
Neighbors house had dancing sparks or lightning around their dining room light.
The actual antenna was blown into black shredded fiberglass all over our yard and down the street
I was deaf for 2 days
The CB base station was OK because mom unplugged the coax when it started to storm.

[aim2pls]

I connect my dish to a 1 iron.

Not even God can hit a 1 iron :-)


PERFECT grounding in my opinion

[Clato]

see that black spot on the sidewalk, thats where Clato was when the lightning bolt hit, yes i agree, GOD's aim is improving,
:lol:

[capegator]

I had D* install a slimline about a month ago. The installer was over 6 hours late, it was starting to get dark and he did not install a ground. The guy spoke very little English, so I was just glad the dish was up and he had everything fine tuned. Should I call D* and have them send someone to ground the dish, or should I do this myself?