E* Philosophy on new receivers

[cws80us]

Step 1: Announce the new receiver very early and include all the latest and greatest technology and features to make it seem like it will be cutting edge. Just try to get as many people's attention as possible.
Step 2: Build some fake prototypes to display at trade shows. Make it look like you have a working model, even if you don't; people just need to see something tangible to help them believe in it.
Step 3: Announce a release date even if the product is nowhere near ready, then just keep pushing it back until you finally meet it. Even a broken clock is right twice a day!
Step 4: As soon as you have a bare bones working model with a minimum number of bugs go ahead and release it. Just get something out there; the bugs can be fixed and the additionally functionality can be added later.
Step 5: Keep making new software releases until the receiver is stable and at least a couple of the originally announced features are available. If you wait long enough, people will forget what you originally promised anyway, and they will be happy just to have something that works.
Step 6: Before you even finish step 5, go ahead and announce your next generation receiver. People will turn their attention to the new product and forget all about the last one.
Step 7: Start over again at step 1.

[sampatterson]

You left out an interim step:

3a. Don't release the product (DishDVD combo, etc etc) :grin:

[Jacob S]

Before the product gets to market it is outdated. They wait too long and take too long to make the product come alive, its dead before its alive.

[gcutler]

I disagree about the products being dead before they are alive.

The 301 is a great Entry Level Product.

The 501 was something that didn't exist (a bare bones PVR) which has its place (but of course has to be priced between the entry level 301 and the full featured PVR)

And while the 721 was late to the table, it isn't obsolete and gives a worthwile run to UTV and DTiVo.

The problem seems to be that they are often the last to the table and had worse pricing to boot (the negative of not having different hardware vendors who compete with each other for the same market share). D* has the eqivlant of the 301 and 721 way before E* released the models and the E* pricing was was non-competitive. The initial price of the 301 was $150, the D* equivlants (good basic model with Event Timer and IR Blaster) I believe were much lower in price. The current pricing model of the DTiVo (of course subsidized) make the initial cost of purchase and subscription more cost effective than the 721.

And the late to the table also cost them in the ease at which people can jump to D*. How many people jumped on the DTiVo bandwagon, got the same equivlant programming, got their UTV or DTiVos at $99/each and now have minimal/none PVR subscription price (and got the Dual tuners a year before the 721) with no negative impact to their household. I myself could not in good conscience convince people to go E* in the past year with the DTiVo option. Only saving grace was that D* didn't have enough hardware to go around, I can imagine the #s if the DTiVo was constantly available for $99 or $199/each for the past year. Now at least I can give them the specs of what E* offers, but the DTiVo option is still my recommendation to anyone.

[Jacob S]

I did not mean all the receivers are outdated, just some, like that dvd/receiver combo thing, that was not outdated but the pricing came way down on the dvd players therefore that was kind of like outdating itself in a way. The 721 came out pretty late and if it would have come out earlier it would have had a head start and things would have been more advanced by now, and another more sophisticated receiver could have been in the works. If they would have waited to bring a product out it would have been more advanced.

That is why I said it was outdated because it is not up to date with the time that they first planned it, although it is not really completely out of date, but on its way there. I think its a bit different now with the PVR products in that they can change the code to update it to make it up to date, so that helps a great deal. This is why I suggested ways of upgrading the base model receivers by replacing a board like they do in computers.

At least they did increase the features in the 301 and lower the price on it as well, instead of having a cheaper second receiver that had to be different from the first one. This was one very good thing that they had done. Also giving everyone the better dish right off the bat with dual outputs is a big plus. Them lower the price on the remotes lately helps a lot too.

[boba]

You hit the nail on the head, are you sure you don't work for DISH's engineering or marketing dept.

[Karl Foster]

The lack of different models of E* receivers is the biggest problem I see. While the 301 is a good, basic entry-level receiver, it lacks dolby digital output and component video. My father-in-law is installing a new surround sound system for Christmas and I had to inform him that he won't be able to watch HBO (or anything else but DVD) in DD. When he called to upgrade to a DD receiver, he only had the option of going with a PVR or a HD receiver. He isn't interested in either. He is pissed. There are several Directv receivers (Samsung, Sony, Hughes, RCA, Mitsubishi) that have DD that aren't PVR's They need a non-PVR SD receiver that has features like DD and component video. I think as more and more people install home theater equipment, this could hamper Dish's retention of current subscribers. Just my $.02 worth.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I think the future will be that all new receivers will be PVR receivers.

The public does not really know what a PVR is, but once they use one they really want one. :)

[MikeW]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

That's the best line I've read in a long time!

[Barnum & Bailey]

Yes all this is true.

Also true is that Mr. Ergan is a VERY VERY RICH Hombre - the plan is working excellently

[gcutler]

Originally posted by karl_f
The lack of different models of E* receivers is the biggest problem I see. While the 301 is a good, basic entry-level receiver, it lacks dolby digital output and component video. My father-in-law is installing a new surround sound system for Christmas and I had to inform him that he won't be able to watch HBO (or anything else but DVD) in DD. When he called to upgrade to a DD receiver, he only had the option of going with a PVR or a HD receiver. He isn't interested in either. He is pissed. There are several Directv receivers (Samsung, Sony, Hughes, RCA, Mitsubishi) that have DD that aren't PVR's They need a non-PVR SD receiver that has features like DD and component video. I think as more and more people install home theater equipment, this could hamper Dish's retention of current subscribers. Just my $.02 worth.

When I upgraded to my 508, logic said the 301 would be the one to survive on the other TV. But since the 4900 had DD, that is the one that stayed active. Perhaps he can trade his 301 for a 4900, etc.

[boba]

I think you can plan on future Dish receivers being low cost PVR's probably with things like DD and UHF left off to lower cost. Maybe with smaller hard drives but search, 1 week guide, instant info etc. may require a hard drive so I would expect more PVRS.

[gcutler]

The only thing about smaller hard drives is that they tend not to stay around (just like slower CPUs). I think right now it is pretty hard to find a drive under 40GB, with 60-80GB being the most popular. In the future it may be more cost effective to put a 80GB drive in than a 20GB drive (as the 20s disappear, I doubt Dish would want to pay extra to keep a production line open) They would rather pick an In Production model and stick with it for as long as they can.

[Jacob S]

I was thinking myself that all future satellite receivers may be PVR but if they keep failing and all of these bugs, do you really think they want to go through all of the headaches with these bugs and issues? I sure hope they get the product right if they go and do this. They could make them in great bulk and save a ton of money, but then they could lose customers because of bad product if hard drives would fail and bad bugs would come about. Hopefully people liking the PVR product and the fact that those that have PVR are more likely to stay a customer will help balance out those that would turn Dish off bc of the bugs and problems.

With cable starting to have all units be a PVR type of device satellite may need to do this as well.

[PeterB]

The funny thing is, if you pop open a 301 and look around inside, there is marked areas on the motherboard for optical output, and a connector for UHF remotes.

If you add the UHF module from another IRD (dead 4000s are great for this) you have an instant UHF ready 301.

The optical output can be activated as well but will not output DD.

The odd thing is, in the virgin 301's frimware (at least older versions) there is a menu option for Dolby digital, that vanishes when the recivers takes the final dish firmware.

My guess was the 301 was going to have these features, or there was going to be a "401" model that was dropped to push the 501 on people.

[JBKing]

Step 3a - Beta testers? We don't need no stinkin' beta testers!

[Jacob S]

Maybe the motherboard is just similar to those of the 501 only they left those options off.

[normang]

When he called to upgrade to a DD receiver, he only had the option of going with a PVR or a HD receiver. He isn't interested in either. He is pissed.

While he may not be interested in a PVR or HD on the surface.. I suspect that if he completely understood what a PVR could do for him, he would change his mind. I've never seen anyone dis-like using a PVR once they had one.. course there is a first time for everything...

[Jacob S]

People cannot honestly say they do not like it until they have tried it and if they understood it most would love it.

[gcutler]

PVRs have gotten some bad press, most unjustified and many people remember only that. I remember Charles "Imitating Andy Rooney" Grodin did a segment on TiVo on "60 Minutes II" He made it sound like TiVo was intruding on his life now that it was installed. Sounded like someone 150 years ago talking about how intrusive INDOOR PLUMBING is to a household.

[kore]

I've noticed that one of the biggest compaints I've had about the Directivo is that the 'auto record recommended programs' is on by default. That really freaks people out for some reason.

[Jacob S]

It probably freaks them out because there is a bunch of recordings on the hard drive in which were not selected, and it fills up the hard drive too.

[Geronimo]

I think some folks just don't like being reminded that their viewing habits are being monitored in any way. Some of us are sensitive about privacy. Some of us are not. If you are not you find it odd.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Jacob S
It probably freaks them out because there is a bunch of recordings on the hard drive in which were not selected, and it fills up the hard drive too.

But it will never cause a intentionally recorded show to not be recorded or deleted, so why does it matter if it fills the hard drive. It in no way negatively affects the user.