HELP- Need HR20 power consumption

[Davenlr]

Not in manual, directv doesn't know... Does anyone know the watt rating of the HR20 with a 5 lnb dish? Need it to size a UPS purchase.

[armophob]

Any home computer based UPS is fine. If you wan't to protect your tv as well, I would get a 1000 to 15oowatt rated one.

[Davenlr]

Well, 48" lcd, hr20, H20, 100watt surround amp, dvd recorder, 2.2ghz htpc, 3 external drives... Have all the watt ratings except the HR20, and it adds up. I'm close to the "home" cutoff, and can't afford the commercial one, so deciding it I want a big home or just a small one for the hr20 by itself.

[davring]

IIRC it is 48 watts on and 45 watts in standby(off)

[Davenlr]

Thanks.

[CCarncross]

As a sidenote, buy as large as you feel you can afford, it will give you the longest runtime during a power outage. I have a 1300va APC unit that will run it and my eSATA enclosure for a little over 3 hours....

[Neil Derryberry]

be careful not to go too big.. I ran a 3000va apc rack unit just because I had one spare and it killed me on my power bill. I should have seen it coming..

[Davenlr]

Thanks for all the input. I bought a 1500va (865 watts) APC with digital display. The H20 and HR20 together were 85 watts. Kicked on the TV, surround amp, and computer and I'm sitting at 50 per cent load with an estimated runtime of 10 minutes...more than enough time to run out to the garage and fire up the generator. Or I can just turn off the tv/amp and computer and let the HR20 do its thing for a long long long time.

As for the power bill, does this thing run on the battery all the time and use a/c to charge it, or run off a/c and switch to battery during a power outage? Curious how it could use to much more power than the devices plugged in + a battery charger??

[CCarncross]

I guess I'm slightly curious about that as well. My understanding of how they work should make them only use enough power to actually run the devices, and keep the batteries charged, which in most cases should be reasonably nominal.

[bobshults]

Not in manual, directv doesn't know... Does anyone know the watt rating of the HR20 with a 5 lnb dish? Need it to size a UPS purchase.

According to the manufacturer's tag affixed to the bottom of the unit, power consumption is 70 watts max.

[Ken S]

The UPS units are constantly charging the battery which is powering the equipment. This is how you get the nice constant flow of clean power.
Unfortunately, battery chargers tend to be inefficient. Notice how your UPS gets warm...there goes some of your power.

I know they've been working on efficiency, but I believe that they can be as low as 50% efficient on cheaper UPS and worse on things like battery chargers, phone chargers, etc.

Here's some information...

http://www.efficientproducts.org/reports/bchargers/NRDC-Ecos_Battery_Charger_Efficiency.pdf

[davring]

They tend to not be very efficient battery chargers, but that is not their primary function. They spend most of their life maintaining the battery at a full state of charge which requires very little power consumption, a few watts even on larger units. The heat given off is from monitoring circuits, but it will get very warm recharging a unit with a depleted battery.

[davring]

According to the manufacturer's tag affixed to the bottom of the unit, power consumption is 70 watts max.

The 70 watts is the most the charging circuit can consume, which equates to about 6 amps at 12 volts, average for a medium bettery charger.

[Ken S]

They tend to not be very efficient battery chargers, but that is not their primary function. They spend most of their life maintaining the battery at a full state of charge which requires very little power consumption, a few watts even on larger units. The heat given off is from monitoring circuits, but it will get very warm recharging a unit with a depleted battery.

Right, but any heat created is efficiency lost...unless, of course, you need a room heater :)

[KCCardsfan]

IIRC it is 48 watts on and 45 watts in standby(off)

This is correct according to my UPS.

[flipptyfloppity]

The UPS units are constantly charging the battery which is powering the equipment. This is how you get the nice constant flow of clean power.
Unfortunately, battery chargers tend to be inefficient. Notice how your UPS gets warm...there goes some of your power.

UPSes haven't worked that way in a long time. The first of the new-style of UPSes came into existence in the mid-80s.

Modern UPSes are technically actually "standby power systems". That is, when the wall power is good, the wall power is just passed through surge protection and to the load. Meanwhile it constantly "tops off" the batteries. When the device notices the wall power is bad (too low, too high, bad frequency, just nutty), it switches over to running an inverter off the batteries (just like you'd buy for your car) to supply the load.

UPSes do take a significant amount of power, even when just passing power/charging.

Buying a 1500VA UPS to run an 80W device doesn't make a lot of sense. Not only will it cost you extra money, but the UPS systems themselves in high-output UPSes are not designed to run low power loads well, so they won't get appreciably longer (or actually, even shorter) runtime than a smaller one. It's tough to say exactly where the knee of the curve is, but you will likely find a 800VA unit won't run your 80W device much longer than a 500VA unit and a 1500VA unit might be worse than both.

[Ken S]

UPSes haven't worked that way in a long time. The first of the new-style of UPSes came into existence in the mid-80s.

Modern UPSes are technically actually "standby power systems". That is, when the wall power is good, the wall power is just passed through surge protection and to the load. Meanwhile it constantly "tops off" the batteries. When the device notices the wall power is bad (too low, too high, bad frequency, just nutty), it switches over to running an inverter off the batteries (just like you'd buy for your car) to supply the load.

UPSes do take a significant amount of power, even when just passing power/charging.

Buying a 1500VA UPS to run an 80W device doesn't make a lot of sense. Not only will it cost you extra money, but the UPS systems themselves in high-output UPSes are not designed to run low power loads well, so they won't get appreciably longer (or actually, even shorter) runtime than a smaller one. It's tough to say exactly where the knee of the curve is, but you will likely find a 800VA unit won't run your 80W device much longer than a 500VA unit and a 1500VA unit might be worse than both.

ff,

Thanks for the info. So the batteries are just constantly on a trickle charge?

[flipptyfloppity]

ff,

Thanks for the info. So the batteries are just constantly on a trickle charge?

Yes, in steady-state, the unit is just there trickle charging the batteries and feeding input power to output.

Of course, during and after a power outage, it enters various states of running an inverter and fast charging.

Lead-acid batteries prefer to be left on constant charge, so they're perfect for this use. Most other types of batteries load capacity over time if left on constant charge.

[davring]

UPSes haven't worked that way in a long time. The first of the new-style of UPSes came into existence in the mid-80s.

Modern UPSes are technically actually "standby power systems". That is, when the wall power is good, the wall power is just passed through surge protection and to the load. Meanwhile it constantly "tops off" the batteries. When the device notices the wall power is bad (too low, too high, bad frequency, just nutty), it switches over to running an inverter off the batteries (just like you'd buy for your car) to supply the load.

UPSes do take a significant amount of power, even when just passing power/charging.

Buying a 1500VA UPS to run an 80W device doesn't make a lot of sense. Not only will it cost you extra money, but the UPS systems themselves in high-output UPSes are not designed to run low power loads well, so they won't get appreciably longer (or actually, even shorter) runtime than a smaller one. It's tough to say exactly where the knee of the curve is, but you will likely find a 800VA unit won't run your 80W device much longer than a 500VA unit and a 1500VA unit might be worse than both.

I am not doubting your info, but I don't fully understand it. I have had alot of experience with inverters (RV's) and the larger the battery capacity the longer the run time. A UPS is nothing more than a small inverter. Inverters in motorhomes are automatic in the same way. Interupt line voltage, unplug from grid or shut down the generator, and they switch over uniterrupted. The larger the bank of batteries the longer devices in the coach can run.

[Davenlr]

I got the 1500va unit because its not only for the HR20 but also a XP media server, 1TB network drive, dsl modem and wireless router, 48" lcd tv and a surround amp plus a 15watt flourescent emergency lamp... and I need the protection because the power output from the generator isn't all that clean or stable. Power is usually out here for up to 4 hrs after a big storm, and up to 5 days after an ice storm. The A/C already runs the electric bill up over $200 in the summer, what's an extra $10 for the big battery charger :) Least I don't have to sweat now if a storm comes through when I'm not home to unplug my system.

[flipptyfloppity]

I am not doubting your info, but I don't fully understand it. I have had alot of experience with inverters (RV's) and the larger the battery capacity the longer the run time. A UPS is nothing more than a small inverter. Inverters in motorhomes are automatic in the same way. Interupt line voltage, unplug from grid or shut down the generator, and they switch over uniterrupted. The larger the bank of batteries the longer devices in the coach can run.

I see why you are puzzled here.

Yes, increasing the battery capacity increases run time. But note that a VA (or W) is a measure of power (rate of energy flow), not energy (like battery capacity, which is Watt-hours or Joules).

So when you get a 1500VA UPS, it not only has larger batteries, it has a different inverter. This inverter is made to be able to supply more power. As such, it is usually less efficient at lower power draws. It just ends up wasting too much power at those draws.

A situation similar to your RV is if you get a certain size UPS, but then add more batteries. And indeed, at these lower draws, you would probably do well to get the lowest power UPS that supports additional battery packs (typically about 800VA) and add more battery packs to it. That will last longer on low draws than the 1500VA unit, even though the 1500VA unit has the same battery capacity as the 800VA unit with the expansion on it.

Your RV systems sound wonderful, my experience with RVs effectively ended about 18 years ago, and the electrical systems at that time were nothing like you describe. Most had dual power systems, those that ran off 12V and worked even when untethered and those than ran off 115V but only ran when the RV was plugged into mains. Of course, there wasn't satellite TV or flat screens either (and cellular phones were very rare and roaming was an expensive joke) so things must be incredibly different now.

[looney2ns]

In most situations, a 1500va UPS will cost you a couple bucks a year to operate.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

I concur, get the biggest you can afford, but place more emphasis on features than volt-ampere ratings. In other words, LOOK FOR one of the models that has "Smart" in the name, such as the APC SMartUPS or the TrippLite "OmniSMART" series. My personal favorite is the TrippLite models because I seem to get better battery life and it's so much easier to change the batteries in the TrippLites, even with them still plugged-in and online. Just so you know, the "SMART" models provide pure sinewave output and offer both buck-n-boost overvoltage and undervoltage (brownout) protection. Yes, more expensive but look what you paid for what you're trying to protect. SHould be a no-brainer. Spend the dough.

I use a TrippLite OmniSmart 1400 PNP on my "big" tv, which consists of 65" Mits WD65732, Comcast STB, TIVO series 2 DVR, Pioneer 700w 5.1 system, Blu-Ray player. I have a smaller TrippLite SmartPRO 700 on our "little" TV, which is a Sony 40" 2500 & Comcast DVR.

The concept here was not to try to achieve any specific amount of "run" time but rather with emphasis on protecting the equipment investment. If you buy a UPS with the notion of being able to "keep watching TV until the battery dies" you are going to be very sadly disappointed in your UPS no matter what you buy because you are going to very significantly shorten the battery life. Remember, the UPS runs with lead-acid batteries similar to your car battery. It will ordinarily last up to 5 years in normal use, but running it down is not considered "normal". Try running your car battery completely flat a few times then try starting your car next winter when it's 20 below zero.

This truly is one of the biggest mistakes the first-time UPS buyer makes. He gets it home, charges it up and immediately unplugs it with everything running to see how long it lasts. Big mistake, big, big mistake!!

[Cap'n Preshoot]

UPSes haven't worked that way in a long time. The first of the new-style of UPSes came into existence in the mid-80s.

Modern UPSes are technically actually "standby power systems". That is, when the wall power is good, the wall power is just passed through surge protection and to the load. Meanwhile it constantly "tops off" the batteries. When the device notices the wall power is bad (too low, too high, bad frequency, just nutty), it switches over to running an inverter off the batteries (just like you'd buy for your car) to supply the load.


True enough, except these so-called "modern standby power systems" are not the run of the mill, off-the-shelf, sale-priced UPS' you find at Sams and Wal*Mart. Those are the "dumb" ones and provide only standby power. They are generally not pure sinewave invertors either, nor are they well regulated, quite the contrary, in fact.

Shop for a UPS with the word "SMART" in its name, such as the APC SmartUPS or the TrippLite OmniSmart or SmartPro series. Yes, you'll pay a little more, but you'll have so much more.

By the way, the Volt-Ampere ratings of UPS' are not directly interchangeable with the term "Watts". A 1500 VA UPS will provide only around 900 watts of power.

[flipptyfloppity]

True enough, except these so-called "modern standby power systems" are not the run of the mill, off-the-shelf, sale-priced UPS' you find at Sams and Wal*Mart. Those are the "dumb" ones and provide only standby power. They are generally not pure sinewave invertors either, nor are they well regulated, quite the contrary, in fact.

By the way, the Volt-Ampere ratings of UPS' are not directly interchangeable with the term "Watts". A 1500 VA UPS will provide only around 900 watts of power.

Shop for a UPS with the word "SMART" in its name, such as the APC SmartUPS or the TrippLite OmniSmart or SmartPro series. Yes, you'll pay a little more, but you'll have so much more.

For any device that has a switching power supply, sine wave doesn't matter. Your PC would run on a square wave. In fact, it would run on DC, and the only effect is the circuit that switches it off (SCR) wouldn't work and you'd have to unplug or flip the hard switch to turn it off.

Any device that has a well-regulated power supply doesn't care about sine waves vs steps or triangles. This includes your TV, DTV receiver, video games, CD/DVD player, etc. What this doesn't include is your amplifier/receiver. If your amplifier is analog (some newer ones are digital, but the majority by far are analog), it has minimal regulation and no feedback on the final speaker drive, it just works straight from the line power. Any non-sine wave output can easily throw noise into your speakers, which stinks.

I also still stand by my comments elsewhere that buying a UPS to protect equipment is usually a mistake financially. You spend more protecting your equipment than you ever realize in savings. This can vary with your location, some areas (like Florida where my mother lives) have worse power than others. But in general, the value of a UPS is to prevent power interruptions, not protect equipment.

To looney2ns:
I wish I still had my UPS to measure, but I measured my SmartUPS 1000 and it was significantly higher than a few dollars. As I calculated elsewhere, the trickle charge itself would amount to the capacity in cents per year (my 1000 UPS would cost $10.00 per year) and that's before the monitoring circuitry in there. You're really looking at at least $20/year for my SmartUPS 1000, and that's just too high for me. I am very power conscious (I paid $36.69 in electric last month and that is a relatively high figure for me) and upping my electric bill 5% ($1.80/mo) just for being able to turn my computer off in an orderly fashion if power goes out when it happens to be on just isn't a good trade for me.

[Bob Coxner]

Get a Kill-a-Watt Electricity Usage Monitor if you want to know how much power is required for each device. $22 at Amazon, I think it's a bit more at Radio Shack.

* Electricity usage monitor connects to appliances and assesses efficiency
* Large LCD display counts consumption by the kilowatt-hour
* Calculates electricity expenses by the day, week, month, or year
* Displays volts, amps, and wattage within 0.2 percent accuracy
* Compatible with inverters; designed for use with AC 115-volt appliances

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-Kill-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6951796-2768831?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1192976437&sr=8-1

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Adviseability of getting a UPS notwithstanding, these things are horribly inefficient from an energy standpoint. The power factor varies during the standby (charging) time from as low as .26 to a peak somewhere around .5 (again, when charging). The point of which is that these things make good space heaters along with their standby power capabilities. :-)

If you want to "protect" your equipment, a very good case can be made for simply purchasing a good quality surge protector and then using it according to the manufacturer's instructions. By the way, a surge protector (power strip) should never be used behind a UPS. If you need more outlets, buy a UPS with more outlets. Don't try to expand the UPS outlets via a power strip because you will void the "protection" insurance guarantee of both products. (read the fine print that came with it)

By the way, the TrippLite 1400 VA (approx 900 watts) UPS draws 31 watts when just connected to the AC power by itself and turned on but with nothing else connected to it. That's approx 744 watts in 24 hours, just to keep it chugging away. That's 22 KW per month multiplied by your current electric company's going rate. If 10 cents per kwh it's costing you about 2 bucks a month just to have it.

The smaller TrippLite 400 VA (approx 250 watt) model only pulls 1/3rd that much power, again with it just sitting there, plugged in and not doing anything besides keeping a float charge on the battery. Granted, very little run time capability, but ordinarily plenty to get you over those momentary blips when the power drops for a second or two and stops your DVR from recording.

Above stats from one of those consumer-grade "Kill-A-Watt" meters.

[romwarrior88]

IIRC it is 48 watts on and 45 watts in standby(off)

I measured mine last night using the Kill-a-Watt and it came in at 43 watts on and 41 watts in standby. Pretty close but a little less. Still amounts to over 31 KWH per month. That really adds up if you have more than one of these. My electrical bills are getting out of hand.

[flipptyfloppity]

These numbers are more like what I measured. I remembered it being 30W+.

I know 30W (about $30/year for a device on 24/365) isn't much to some people, but it is an over 5% increase in my electric bill.

[romwarrior88]

Well I am in Southern California with ridiculous electricity costs so each of my two HR20's costs me over $8/month. That's over $192/year for both. Tack on another $2.50/month for the Seagate external drive and I cross the $200/year mark. JUST FOR ELECTRICITY!! That is just insane and something I never even thought about until recently.

[Upstream]

Not in manual, directv doesn't know... Does anyone know the watt rating of the HR20 with a 5 lnb dish? Need it to size a UPS purchase.

Not sure how DirecTV could get UL approval without publishing the power consumption of the unit.

It should be listed on the back of the unit.