Breaking HDTV News... What does this mean??

[Sonnie Parker]

Looks like their will be no need for HDTV tuners if I'm reading this right:

HDTV Clears Important Tech Hurdle – Native Programming Remains The Last Barrier (http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/1202/19.hdtvbreakthrough.shtml )

Wonder if this might effect the 921? Obviously it could bring the cost down if the OTA module is not needed, unless it's too late. It could also further delay the unit if changes are needed to eliminate parts. I'm assuming Dish would keep the 8PSK as they would still need it to broadcast more HDTV channels on the same transponder.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong and someone can explain it better. Sounds too good to be true.

[Mark Lamutt]

This has been coming for awhile and frankly I'm glad that people are starting to talk about it. Think about it this way - would you have ever bought a normal television if it didn't have the ability to tune to the channels? That's what HD ready sets are today. So, if the ATSC tuners come down in price enough to be added to all HD sets, that can only push HD more into the mainstream.

I don't thing that this will affect the 921 at all because the 921 will still be primarily a satellite receiver and PVR. It will also be able to tune your local HD channels (and hopefully record them as well). Just like a vcr now can tune NTSC channels - the tuner is still built into the NTSC television.

[MarkA]

"Think about it this way - would you have ever bought a normal television if it didn't have the ability to tune to the channels?"

Absolutely. If such sets were on the market, I'd probably look for them first; because of the potential price difference. Just a quick poll here: Who actually USES the NTSC tuner built into their TV? I doubt very many people do.

[Sonnie Parker]

I don't use my NTSC tuner in my RPTV.

It sounds like to me that an OTA HDTV decoder/tuner will no longer be necessary to receive HD programming.

Appears it stemmed from cable companies not wanting to broadcast in HDTV because their customers would have to spend the bucks on a STB to decode HD or the cable companies would have to offer expensive STB that would do it for the customer, just like Dish is doing with the OTA module for the 6000 and in the new upcoming 921. Now that won't be necessary. Dish should be able to eliminate that part of the 921. Granted it may not be much of a cost reduction but every bit helps.

[Mark Lamutt]

If Dish eliminates the 8VSB tuner out of the 921, I won't be buying one because the primary reason that I want a 921 is to be able to use it to record all HD content, not just the HD content that is sent on satellite.

Just because you have an ATSC tuner in your television set, that doesn't mean that you won't want or need one in your other devices. Having one tuner is never enough - that should be obvious from the way that the current tech is today. If one tuner was enough, dual tuner PVRs wouldn't be available. Everyone wants to be able to record one program while watching another one. Take the 8VSB tuner out of the 921 and you no longer have the ability to do that.

And, btw, I actually do use the ntsc tuner in my HDTV. I have cable hooked up to it and use it to watch CBS football on Sundays because my cable picture is better than the picture I get from Dish.

[Jihn Malone\'s Banker]

This means that RCA won. The losers DirecTV, Echostar, Motorola,Scientific Atlanta and Pace.

This means that when these specs are adopted, future HD sets will not require any additional hardware for OTA ATSC reception or a cable STB for HD reception.

Cost of hardware to get cable HD - $0
Amount of monthly rental to cable company for HD STB = $0
Cable company money sent to Motorola, S.A. Pace for HD STBs = $0
Cost of hardware to get DBS HD - $500 + up

[Mark Lamutt]

Actually, that's not quite true. There will still be rental costs involved with the cable HD boxes because the cable cos will be encrypting their digital streams. Cable subs will need the box to decrypt. They won't be able to just plug the incoming cable line into their ATSC tuner and have it work. It's already started.

[Phil T]

I don't use the NTSC tuner on my HDTV. I locked it out and only switch inputs between DTV (SD on my 6000), Game (for the kids Playstation),SAT (for my 501), VHS(I have to many old tapes), DVD and HD.

I do use it on my non HD set so we can still watch OTA programming when recording on the Dishplayer.

[Thomson stockholder]

Originally posted by Mark Lamutt
Actually, that's not quite true. There will still be rental costs involved with the cable HD boxes because the cable cos will be encrypting their digital streams. Cable subs will need the box to decrypt.


Cable, TV Companies Reach Deal On HDTV
By Jon Healey, TimeWriters Staff

Cable operators and TV manufacturers have struck a long-awaited agreement designed to make it easier for consumers to get high- definition television from cable, ensure their ability to record most digital programs and preserve the value of older HDTV sets.

The deal, which is expected to be announced today, would open the door for cable-ready digital TV sets that could deliver HDTV without a separate set-top box. This kind of plug-and-play simplicity is crucial for digital TV, set manufacturers say, because about two- thirds of U.S. homes rely on cable to deliver their TV signals.

Representatives of the cable operators' and manufacturers' trade
associations declined to discuss the deal, which took more than five months to negotiate.

One likely sticking point involves the scrambling of HDTV signals.
The proposed regulation would effectively bar cable and satellite
operators from scrambling the signals all the way to the TV set,
according to sources close to the negotiations. End-to-end
scrambling would help guard programs against piracy -- a key goal for the studios and networks -- but it also would prevent older HDTV sets from displaying them.

Consumer electronics manufacturers and cable operators have battled for years over how to make TVs work with all U.S. cable systems, which use a variety of incompatible techniques to scramble channels and deter piracy. The FCC stepped in four years ago, ordering cable operators to develop standardized security modules that could be plugged into any TV set or converter box with a matching slot.

That order has borne little fruit, mainly because set makers balked at the conditions cable operators wanted to place on using the modules. But FCC efforts to spur the transition to digital TV helped drive the parties back to the negotiating table.

The overall thrust of the agreement is simple: to let manufacturers sell basic digital TV sets that can receive all cable channels -- including ones carrying HDTV programs -- through a simple wall connection. Video on demand and other interactive services would still require a set-top box, although future talks may pave the way for more advanced cable-ready digital TVs.

[Sonnie Parker]

So basically as Mark stated above, it really don't mean squat for us with DBS only.... we are still gonna have to spend the bucks.

EDIT: Of course we will possibly see a benefit of more HD programming.

[Mark Lamutt]

I still thing that the cable subscribers are going to have to spend the bucks as well. Some cable companys are already encrypting their HD signal. I seriously doubt that they will unencrypt it and lose that revenue stream.

But I definitely agree - doesn't mean much to satellite users. As for more HD programming, time will tell I guess. :shrug:

[David_Levin]

Originally posted by Zac
Just a quick poll here: Who actually USES the NTSC tuner built into their TV? I doubt very many people do.

I use the over the air tuner(s) all the time. Have TV/VCRs in 4 locations, but sat receivers are in only two. For the infrequently used sets the OTA is fine.

I also use the OTA tuner to allow me to watch something different then what the Dishplayer is recording, or allow a VCR to record something unique. I have multiple VCRs so I can record on one and watch on another - NEVER watch live TV.

Due to Dish overcompression, my OTA picture is somtimes better then the Dish locals.

For me, OTA HD is going to be critical since we're certainly not going to get HD locals from dish. (I'm leaning to Home Theatre PC w/ HD tuner for PVR functions)

I doubt, at this point, it cost a manufacturer much to include an OTA NTSC Cable Ready tuner. ATSC tuners will reach that point as well.

I have no problem with Cable ready tuners being built into TVs (and Video/DVD/PVR Recorders). Even more useful would be 1 or 2 turner module slots where we could plug in any tuner we want (D*, E*, atsc, etc).

From what I've been reading is sounds like the cable agreement includes addressibility allowing for premium channels. Two-Way communication is going to be addressed in July.

The MPAA is going to scream about the unencrypted component analog connections from a STB to a monitor (they want DVI or i-link). It'll be interesting to see how the FCC responds. We could ignore the MPAA, but then they would withhold HD content (though I can't imagine that they would).

[jeffwtux]

How many times do I have have to tell you people that HDTV could be the satellite killer long term? If cable users can get HDTV with their digital basic package for like under $60 on as many TVs as they want, while DBS users have to buy a $300 receiver per TV, that would kill DBS. I'm not saying it will for sure. I'm just saying that HDTV is more of a threat than VOD. A way larger percentage of the pop will be viewing HDTV in 5 years than will be using VOD. That's my prediction.

[jeffwtux]

If DBS wants to survive, they better be communicating with TV manufacturers pronto to get HDTV DBS encryption and encoding in the TVs just like cable. I've got a feeling that the corrupt cable industry used its fat wallets to bribe the TV manufacturers to not design for DBS similar to what Microsoft does.

[Mistah Browne]

Originally posted by jeffwtux
If DBS wants to survive, they better be communicating with TV manufacturers pronto to get HDTV DBS encryption and encoding in the TVs just like cable.

Or else they had better call up the big loser in this deal - Motorola - and get together to get all DBS on 1 somewhat secure system - digicipher - so that DBS is an add on card as well

[Mike123abc]

Originally posted by Mark Lamutt
I still thing that the cable subscribers are going to have to spend the bucks as well. Some cable companys are already encrypting their HD signal. I seriously doubt that they will unencrypt it and lose that revenue stream.

But I definitely agree - doesn't mean much to satellite users. As for more HD programming, time will tell I guess. :shrug:

The whole point is that NO YOU WILL NOT NEED A BOX the TVs will have descrablers built in them. Using smartcard technology you will be able to put a smart card into your TV (like the DirectTV ready TVs do now) and then attach the cable wire to your TV and be able to enjoy all the benefits of Digital Cable with the Cable companies enjoying the benefits of a "secure" connection.

[MarkA]

Problem - HSRV set prices will go up, and total cost will go up for satellite subs and down for cable subs. Why hasn't anyone mentioned that these things aren't added to TV sets for free!

[Sonnie Parker]

We use 2 satellites, a PVR508 and a 5000 for watching while the PVR is recording. Makes for a good picture on picture set up as well.


OTA HD is very important to us as well since there's absolutely no chance we will ever get cable.


What concerns us more is we watch a lot of AMC, FOXMO, TMC, etc., for the good ole movies. It will probably be a long time before Dish will ever broadcast these in HD. With their limitations I wonder if they ever will.

I can see Dish losing a lot of customers to cable if they don't end up doing something to broadcast more HD and us who can't get cable will be stuck.

[normang]

I don't think Dish is overlooking things when it comes to HD. There are just bandwidth issues that are hard to overcome when they keep cramming more locals and the retarded FCC doesn't seem to give a flip about the bandwidth issues on Satellite.

I guess its sort of a catch-22, you scuttle locals and you tick of those that want HD, you provide less locals and someone doesn't buy or someone moves because perhaps their DMA is on Direct.. Of course this can go both ways..

Hopefully our wonderfully short-sighted FCC and related govt wakes up before TV as we used to know it really is the pits..

[Sonnie Parker]

Once our OTA locals are set up for DTV then I could care less about the Dish locals. Our OTA digital picture should be as good if not better than the Dish locals when they do start broadcasting DTV, especially better on the HD feeds.

The problem we have now is our OTA locals have a terrible picture because we are so far away. I'm assuming a digital signal will be easier to lock in and provide a much better pic.

Of course that's probably not gonna cause Dish to cut back on their locals.