Grounding Block

[Renard]

Do I need the grounding block for my installation?
I think it'd be easier to have just the cables from the dish to the Multiswitch instead of the cables from the dish, the grounding block then the multiswitch. I would lose less signal like that.
The cable would be plugged directly from the dish to the multiswitch, then i will connect the ground from the dish to another place.
Sorry if it's a silly question, but i want to be sure if i can remove it, tommorow the installer is coming and if I don't need it i will ask him to remove it.
Picture attached to this thread with the grounding block on the right and the WB68 on the left

[excalibur26]

IMHO, yes, you need the grounding block. This is to ground the RG6, that is to dissipate any static that may [will] build up in your connections and along the entire run. Sure, you need a few more connectors, all of eight if using all four connectors from the LNB to the grounding block then to the multiswitch. These cost what for good compression connectors; and you're having it installed for free? A failure along the way costs, what? Easy decision, and it is required as well. The loss from the grounding block is negligible.

[litzdog911]

The ground block is an important safety item required by National Electric Codes. You really should not be losing any signal through it. Your installation looks neat and clean.

[Renard]

The ground block is an important safety item required by National Electric Codes. You really should not be losing any signal through it. Your installation looks neat and clean.

I have some signals dropping for no reason. The dish has been changed last week, (I have the new Slimeline) but for some reasons, sometimes the signal will drop from 98 to 50 range. The problem doesn't occur all the time, but when it happens i have so macro blockings that occur (on all of my receivers of course, not on only one)
I think i might have a problem with my WB 68.
Any thought?
But since the installer is coming on tommorow , i think i will ask him to change the Wb 68 and the cables from the dish to the WB 68.

[litzdog911]

I doubt the grounding block would cause those symptoms. More likely a poor coax connector, or multiswitch problem, or dish/LNB problem. You can easily bypass the grounding block using barrel connectors to rule it out, though.

[PANCHITO]

NO you don't need the ground block, just connect the 4 cables to the switch and ground the switch.

[litzdog911]

NO you don't need the ground block, just connect the 4 cables to the switch and ground the switch.

Bad advice!

[bstntech]

From the photo that looks like a great install, and I would pass it in a QC in a heartbeat. I would never say take a ground block off. what could be your problem is the connecters. that will cause signal loss if they are in bad condition. You really need to call and get a tech out there and have him check out the connectors.

[techrep]

Do I need the grounding block for my installation?
I think it'd be easier to have just the cables from the dish to the Multiswitch instead of the cables from the dish, the grounding block then the multiswitch. I would lose less signal like that.
The cable would be plugged directly from the dish to the multiswitch, then i will connect the ground from the dish to another place.
Sorry if it's a silly question, but i want to be sure if i can remove it, tommorow the installer is coming and if I don't need it i will ask him to remove it.
Picture attached to this thread with the grounding block on the right and the WB68 on the left

Nice looking install but I see one little issue, the terminators on the flex ports should be removed.

http://www.zcwc.com/products/multi_switch/usermanuals/notice.JPG

[TigersFanJJ]

Yes, it is designed and approved to ground the system through the m/s. However, it won't fix your problem unless it is in the ground block or one of the cables between the ground block and the switch.

As techrep said, I would remove those terminators. That may very well be your problem.

[techrep]

Yes, it is designed and approved to ground the system through the m/s. However, it won't fix your problem unless it is in the ground block or one of the cables between the ground block and the switch.

As techrep said, I would remove those terminators. That may very well be your problem.

That's what I am thinking.

That looks like a outside install so, replace the terminators with the plastic caps the WB68 came with if, you still have them.

[litzdog911]

Those "terminators" might be just be caps. I know lots of installers will clip the center conductor from standard 75-ohm Terminators and use them as weather caps to seal exterior connections.

If you remove them and don't see any center conductor inside, then they're probably safe to use.

[Mikey Palmice]

Glad I noticed this thread. My system wasn't grounded when I checked and while the installer was at my house today, I had him make give me a ground block with 4 short coax cables to put between my dish and multiswitch. Good to go now.:)

[AntAltMike]

Glad I noticed this thread. My system wasn't grounded when I checked and while the installer was at my house today, I had him make give me a ground block with 4 short coax cables to put between my dish and multiswitch. Good to go now.:)

Possibly not. Each coax outer conductor must be grounded as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building. This requirement is separate from the antenna mast grounding requirement.

[Mikey Palmice]

Possibly not. Each coax outer conductor must be grounded as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building. This requirement is separate from the antenna mast grounding requirement.

it's placed about 6 feet in from where the four cables enter the house. no good?

[AntAltMike]

Close enough for me!

[PANCHITO]

Bad advice!



Bad advice! What's bad about it, you don't need the ground block if you are using a multiswitch, the ground block is always replaced by a multiswitch on an upgrade or you think they just put those extra screw on the multiswitch to look pretty.

I'm not saying that's going to fix the problem but is one thing he doesn't have to worry about.

[AntAltMike]

Bad advice! What's bad about it, you don't need the ground block if you are using a multiswitch, the ground block is always replaced by a multiswitch on an upgrade or you think they just put those extra screw on the multiswitch to look pretty....

The ground blocks are not always replaced by a multiswitch on an upgrade and they should not be replaced by it unless the multiswitch is located at or near the points at which the coaxes enter the building.

Furthermore, if you do ground the coax outer conductors using the multiswitch, your ground connection will need to have four times the current carrying capability that it would need to properly ground a single outer conductor, so you would need to use six gauge ground wire or four strands of ten gauge ground wire.

[Coffey77]

The ground blocks are not always replaced by a multiswitch on an upgrade and they should not be replaced by it unless the multiswitch is located at or near the points at which the coaxes enter the building.

Furthermore, if you do ground the coax outer conductors using the multiswitch, your ground connection will need to have four times the current carrying capability that it would need to properly ground a single outer conductor, so you would need to use six gauge ground wire or four strands of ten gauge ground wire.

Actually, the NEC only requires a #14 but I believe recommends #12 Solid wire for antenna/cable/dish connections.

The #6 you are talking about is if you were to set up another ground rod or if you were to connect multiple products (a communication distribution system as they call it, which most residences will not have but we might see in the future) you are required to connect the secondary (supplimental) ground rod with a #6 that returns to the origional ground rod/water pipe (Main Bonding Jumper). They say that anything within 5' of the entrance point of a properly grouned water pipe is an acceptable grounding spot as well.

[bt-rtp]

The answer is always "YES", satellite systems must be properly grounded.

[AntAltMike]

Actually, the NEC only requires a #14 but I believe recommends #12 Solid wire for antenna/cable/dish connections.
I haven't read the 2005 Edition, but all editions from 2002 and earlier say that the outer conductor must be grounded with copper wire approximately equal in current carrying capability to the outer conductor, but in no instance shall be less than 14 gauge, and the mast ground can be 8 gauge aluminum, 10 gauge copper or 17 gauge copper clad steel.

I had one inspector in Amherst, Mass insist that the current carrying capability of a coax outer conductor is determined almost exclusively by its outer diameter and made me use 6 gauge wire to ground it. I use ten gauge just because I also carry ten gauge for the mast grounding, but cable companies often use 12 gauge to ground coax outer conductors.

My suggestion of six gauge when grounding a multiswitch is that six gauge has four times the current carrying capability of ten gauge wire. Have you noticed that "siamese", or dual ground blocks have connection points for two ground wires? That is because you need twice as much grounding conductor capability for a dual block than for a single block.

[Coffey77]

Just got out of a 5 day Seminar about the 2008 code updates and the last 2 days were on grounding and bonding. Funny you mention the 2002 code, the guy doing the seminar said that that code was termed "the forgotten code" by the comittee who draws up the code books. My Grounding and Bonding book is almost more than half the thickness of the NEC 2008 code book we got. :)

[PANCHITO]

The ground blocks are not always replaced by a multiswitch on an upgrade and they should not be replaced by it unless the multiswitch is located at or near the points at which the coaxes enter the building.

Furthermore, if you do ground the coax outer conductors using the multiswitch, your ground connection will need to have four times the current carrying capability that it would need to properly ground a single outer conductor, so you would need to use six gauge ground wire or four strands of ten gauge ground wire.


And I'm assuming you are the one that wrote the book how to install a satellite system.

[Coffey77]

And I'm assuming you are the one that wrote the book how to install a satellite system.

He has read and understood the book which is updated every three years and is now being recognized Internationally... There is a reason there is no book on installs, every install is different. There are some rules that you should NOT overlook. There's always a way do to something, it's just a matter of conveniece and willingness... It's the human element of it all and this is not a perfect world.

[K4SMX]

To get back OT, this is the OP's main problem:
I have some signals dropping for no reason. The dish has been changed last week, (I have the new Slimeline) but for some reasons, sometimes the signal will drop from 98 to 50 range......
Well I guess we don't yet know what, if anything, the installer did yesterday, since Renard has not been back. He never said how long his coax runs are, but I suspect, with a brand new dish recently installed, he may need a polarity locker on his WB68 or a WB616 instead of it.

[TooManyToys]

When I got the 3 lnb dish, the installer ran a ground wire to the dish, but the wiring did not have a ground block. So when the 5 lnb dish was installed recently, I asked the installer to put in a grounding block. He did, and used the ground wire from the dish to ground the grounding block. Now I have no ground wire to the dish. I can't win.

Here's another grounding question. The wires from my dish come down the gutter downspout then go under the soffet. Just as they enter the soffet into a joist cavity is where the grounding block is installed. It's then covered by the soffet vinyl. Should the ground block be outside of this area or is this OK as it is "as near as possible to the point at which it enters the building".

[PANCHITO]

He has read and understood the book which is updated every three years and is now being recognized Internationally... There is a reason there is no book on installs, every install is different. There are some rules that you should NOT overlook. There's always a way do to something, it's just a matter of conveniece and willingness... It's the human element of it all and this is not a perfect world.

Where do you get that every install is different, when it comes to grounding every install is the same you have to ground it. directv requirements is #10 awg solid copper to the ground block or multiswitch within 25' and #17 awg Copper to the dish.up to 120'. And there is a installation book by direct tv and videos.:p

[Renard]

To get back OT, this is the OP's main problem:

Well I guess we don't yet know what, if anything, the installer did yesterday, since Renard has not been back. He never said how long his coax runs are, but I suspect, with a brand new dish recently installed, he may need a polarity locker on his WB68 or a WB616 instead of it.

Sorry if I didn't reply earlier.
The installer changed the cables, the ground block and the WB68. He let the terminators on the flexport 1 & 2 (I removed them when i read the thread above). I was with him all the time, and I can say he was really professional, he knew what he was doing. :)
I don't have anymore problem now.
I'd like to ask you a question, maybe I am paranoid, but I have noticed something on my sat 101. On this sat, I have a higher reading on even Tps than odd Tps. For example, on Tp 32 i have 97%, then on Tp 31 i have 86-87%. on Tp 18 I have 100% whereas on Tp 17 I have 83%. I know these readings are good, but I was wondering why do i have such difference between odd and even Tps on sat 101. i also know that there is not only one sat on 101 position, but I think several (2 or 3 sats?)
By the way, my dish is properly aligned, I have 98% on sat 103b and 98% on sat 99b, 96% on sat 110, and 94% on sat 119.
I have higher readings on these sats than on sat 101 on odd Tps.
Any suggestions?:confused:

[AntAltMike]

...maybe I am paranoid, but I have noticed something on my sat 101. On this sat, I have a higher reading on even Tps than odd Tps. For example, on Tp 32 i have 97%, then on Tp 31 i have 86-87%. on Tp 18 I have 100% whereas on Tp 17 I have 83%. I know these readings are good, but I was wondering why do i have such difference between odd and even Tps on sat 101. i also know that there is not only one sat on 101 position, but I think several (2 or 3 sats?)
Your transponder 18 is a spotbeam which will always give the highest signal readings unless you are way out on the edge of the coverage range.

These % numbers are not really indicative of actual signal strength but are largely a function of bit error correction taking place. If DirecTV is using a different Forward Error Correction ratio on one transponder than on another, that will affect the calculated "signal strength %".

About three or four years ago, a lot of people had trouble reliably getting transponders 30 and 32 (Showtime and HBO). I believe that those in the northwest complained the most. Many conspiracy theorists speculated that DirecTV was temporarily using an old, 120 watt per transponder satellite (D1R, or D2? I forget the numbers now) which they had to deplete to terminate some unfavorable carrriage agreement they had with some programmers that otherwise did not end until that satellite had expired, but that would therefore never have ended if that satellite were just parked in storage to be used as a back-up.

[rambrush]

I had a installer from Ironwood out today to install the 5 port dish hd setup, He set things up and I comminted on there being no grounding blocks. He advsied it was not necesary. I knew better but what was a guy to do? I waited until he left and went and bought my own and installed them.
Hard to get quality help now days I guess..

[K4SMX]

I had a installer from Ironwood out today to install the 5 port dish hd setup, He set things up and I commited on there being no grounding blocks. He advsied it was not necesary. I knew better but what was a guy to do? I waited until he left and went and bought my own and installed them.
Hard to get quality help now days I guess..
Well gee, I wonder what your alignment is like with a guy like that? 103(b)'s in the 60's? What's a guy to do? Tell him he's wrong. Don't sign off. Report this to D*. Report this to Ironwood. (Yeah...) There are plenty of good installers. You just got an exceptionally lazy one.

[rambrush]

Actually I looked over his shoulder at his meter and it actually read 98 at the dish and 93 inside so not sure if thats good or not but I beleive so.

[K4SMX]

What are your readings for 103(b)? Menu Button > Help & Settings > Setup > Sat & Ant > View Signal Strengths. Left arrow to 103(b). There are 16 active tp's on 103(b).

[rambrush]

Do you want it listed or? I saw most were 95's and 2 had 88's

[Coffey77]

Where do you get that every install is different, when it comes to grounding every install is the same you have to ground it. directv requirements is #10 awg solid copper to the ground block or multiswitch within 25' and #17 awg Copper to the dish.up to 120'. And there is a installation book by direct tv and videos.:p
I believe you're a bit backwards. There is no #17 AWG wire...(atleast none I've ever seen) and it is not recommended to go any smaller than #14. Usually, you will size up, which would be #12 AWG if you are above 100' in length. A #6 wire is required if you have a Multi-Media System (I forget the actual name the NEC calls it and my books are in the car) but that is required only if you have multiple objects that require a ground. You would, in that case, take each piece of equipment (like the OP's picture at the top) attatch it with a #14 or #12 Copper wire to the #6 wire which then the #6 wire will go to either the water pipe if it is an adequate grounding place or to the Main Bonding Jumper of the dwelling - which is usually the main panel in the basement.

The Dish should be grounded to the outside ground rod if possible or to an outside, properly grounded section of water line within 5' of the dwelling.

When I say every install is different - not everyone has access to each and everyone of these items so it's up to the installer to figure out how it needs to be done. I will say, they SHOULD NOT be required to be an electrician - that's the electricians job. ;)

[K4SMX]

Do you want it listed or? I saw most were 95's and 2 had 88's
Nope. So that's one thing you don't have to worry about. In fact, they're so good, you should forget about the grounding block issue with the installer. If I had an installer who said, "Look. I hate putting in grounding blocks, but I can get 90's out of that dish on 103(b). Do you wanna do your own grounding block while I align your dish?", I'd say, "Sure thing!"

So now did you properly ground your grounding block?

[w7com]

That's what I am thinking.

That looks like a outside install so, replace the terminators with the plastic caps the WB68 came with if, you still have them.

And replace the MS in a year. The caps just collect water. The approved method is to clip the pin on the 75ohm terminators and use them, with a rubber grommet and anti-oxidizing gel, to cover the unused ports.

[w7com]

I believe you're a bit backwards. There is no #17 AWG wire...(atleast none I've ever seen) and it is not recommended to go any smaller than #14.


The dual RG6 with ground is 17AWG on the ground. The NEC takes in to account the coax braid to get it up to about 10AWG effective.

[w7com]

I had a installer from Ironwood out today to install the 5 port dish hd setup, He set things up and I comminted on there being no grounding blocks. He advsied it was not necesary. I knew better but what was a guy to do? I waited until he left and went and bought my own and installed them.
Hard to get quality help now days I guess..

Is there an 6x8 multiswitch? If it is both grounded to the dish (via the grounded coax) and a proper ground (at least 10AWG to the service ground) then it is in spec. If there is no switch or no grounding on it, then do call Ironwood. They will send a tech to QC it fairly quickly.

[techrep]

And replace the MS in a year. The caps just collect water. The approved method is to clip the pin on the 75ohm terminators and use them, with a rubber grommet and anti-oxidizing gel, to cover the unused ports.

I will stick with the "literal" interpretation.

http://www.zcwc.com/tech_support/usermenual/multi_switch/wb_68.htm

http://www.zcwc.com/products/multi_switch/usermanuals/wb_616/warning.pdf

[rambrush]

Is there an 6x8 multiswitch? If it is both grounded to the dish (via the grounded coax) and a proper ground (at least 10AWG to the service ground) then it is in spec. If there is no switch or no grounding on it, then do call Ironwood. They will send a tech to QC it fairly quickly.

Oh yes as I do electrical for a living I took a 10 ga direct into the panel and grounded all 4 cables up at the dish and then ran a seperate ground into the communications block.

I did not get the 6x8 because it was not listed on his install list. It was going to be additional charge. Again he prefered to utilize couplers to join things in the comm box.
So its another item to add to my to do list.

[w7com]

[QUOTE=techrep;1264517]I will stick with the "literal" interpretation.

Ok, but after the pin is clipped it's not 75ohms anymore. It's just a nice metal screw-on cap. But if it's inside, no problem.

[AntAltMike]

The dual RG6 with ground is 17AWG on the ground. The NEC takes in to account the coax braid to get it up to about 10AWG effective.

That sounds like a conclusion by the poster. The NEC has one spec for mast grouding wire under Sec 820 and another for outer conductor ground wire under Sec 810. They don't share with us exactly how they arrived at those specs. In the case of grounding a mast, they are most likely concerned with draining off static and probably with survivability over time. With the shield grounding, the ground connection needs to adequately shunt continuously applied current away from the house.

[AntAltMike]

...but after the pin is clipped it's not 75ohms anymore. It's just a nice metal screw-on cap. But if it's inside, no problem.

Sonora Design actually puts a VBC between the F-jack and the terminating resistor cap.:eek2:

[AntAltMike]

Is there an 6x8 multiswitch? If it is both grounded to the dish (via the grounded coax) and a proper ground (at least 10AWG to the service ground) then it is in spec. ...

To clarify, it would be within DirecTV's specs, but not necessarily compliant with the NEC. The satellite service providers make their own practical choices regarding what they require of installers. Sometimes they require them to meet the Model NEC, but sometimes they don't. One major satellite internet provider tells its installers to use 5 foot rods for mast grounding, even though the code says 8 feet. Some DBS satellite service providers now allow installers to satisfy their own outer conductor grounding requirements by grounding just an external multiswitch, but as explained above, if that multiswitch is not located as near as possible to the point at which each and every switch output coax then enters the building, it does not satisfy the NEC requirement, and one, ten-gauge copper ground wire surely does not have current carrying capability approximately equal to the current carrying capability of the parallel, multiple outer conductors.

The fact that an installation does or doesn't meet a service provider's specs controls whether you can get someone to come out and improve the quality of the grounding for free, but in so far as meeting the NEC is concerned, in most localities it's compliance is only enforced by the mattress tag police.

[AntAltMike]

...There is no #17 AWG wire...(atleast none I've ever seen) and it is not recommended to go any smaller than #14.


The mast grounding requirement permits the use of 17 gauge copper clad steel, and various cable manufacturer's have been making single and dual coax with such a wire physically attached to it in the same way that steel "messinger" wire has been attached to cable for ariel support for a long time. In fact, the copper-clad steel wire has now come to commonly be called a "messinger wire", but old timers reject that usage of the term.

Unfortunately, some installers have mistakenly concluded that it is a viable grounding conductor for coax outer conductor grounding, but it is not. FWIW, I, like a lot of people, take the 17 gauge mast grounding wire and couple it with the 10 gauge copper wire I use to ground the coax outer conductor by stuffing them both in the ground block hole, but to do this, I have to bend some tiny kinks into the 17 gauge wire, about an eighth of an inch or closer together. otherwise it will slip out. This probably violates some general principle that the antenna mast ground be as direct a path as possible to ground, but I work for myself so I don't really care whether it violates the code or not.

[techrep]

Sonora Design actually puts a VBC between the F-jack and the terminating resistor cap.:eek2:

I assume for ESD as a protective diode would be of little use in a circut designed to implement three different voltages.

[Coffey77]

FWIW, I, like a lot of people, take the 17 gauge mast grounding wire and couple it with the 10 gauge copper wire I use to ground the coax outer conductor by stuffing them both in the ground block hole, but to do this, I have to bend some tiny kinks into the 17 gauge wire, about an eighth of an inch or closer together. otherwise it will slip out. This probably violates some general principle that the antenna mast ground be as direct a path as possible to ground, but I work for myself so I don't really care whether it violates the code or not.
Ah, the number one "no - no" that happens - I am included as a guilty party :nono2: - The NEC says it's Illegal to put more than one conductor into a grounding clamp or space. You should (must or shall per code) either buy another grounding clamp or create a grounding block and make more spaces... but I won't tell if you won't. ;)

Thanks to all of you whom clarified the #17 part. I didn't notice that when I was going over the Grounding and Bonding section. Definately have to look it over again.

A #14 or larger solid copper wire, insulated or not should run from grounding screw from the dish base, along the outside of the home, to an approved grounding location. The coax should be taken to a grounding bar for coax where the #17 you all informed me of will be grounded to that bar. From there, there should be a #14 or larger solid copper wire insulated or not should be attatched to the grounding screw on the grounding bar and run to an appropriate grounding location within the home or outside near the point of entry.

If everything were as simple as that sounds - there'd be no problem and no issues but you have to understand that almost every install is different. Different circumstances, different codes... Each town/state/county has their own adendum to the NEC and each town/county/state has their own year of the code which they follow. Many are just getting to the 1999 Code. Most completely skipped the 2002 Code and in some places you'll see the 2005 just now being adopted. I just went to the 2008 Code update and 3 days still wasn't enough to go over all the changes. Some significant - some you'll never notice.

One big change - AFCI (Arc-Fault Circut Interrupter) protection devices will be required on all outlets (outlets includes wall recepticals and light fixtures as well as 120v fire alarm systems) in new dwellings and any receptical replaced is required to be GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt).

[AntAltMike]

...A #14 or larger solid copper wire, insulated or not should run from grounding screw from the dish base, along the outside of the home, to an approved grounding location. The coax should be taken to a grounding bar for coax where the #17 you all informed me of will be grounded to that bar. From there, there should be a #14 or larger solid copper wire insulated or not should be attached to the grounding screw on the grounding bar and run to an appropriate grounding location within the home or outside near the point of entry.
never notice...

You've got them backwards. The mast can be grounded with the 17 gauge copper clad steel or 8 gauge aluminum or 10 gauge copper. It can be stranded or solid, and insulated or bare. Unless the coax destination is downward and fairly directly into the house, the "messengered", 17 gauge copper clad steel wire is peeled off and grounded conveniently, either to part of the ground electrode system or to a supplementary, eight foot ground rod, which is then bonded to the ground electrode system.

But unless there is something different in the 2005 or 2008 revisions, of which I have never had a copy and thus rely only on excerpts I have seen on "the 'net' ", the outer conductor coax requirement cannot be satisfied with the 17 gauge copper clad steel. And in the latest version I read (2002), the outer conductor coax ground still had to be solid wire and had to be insulated. And if that is not restrictive enough, someone once told me that if you use insulated ground wire for that purpose, it is supposed to be green. I always use black because I can usually get customers to tolerate black, but I'd hate to have to sell them on green.

What really pisses me off about this whole NEC thing is that the NEC is adopted either in whole or substantially in part as law, but someone owns the law and if we excerpt from it too liberally, we will have committed a copyright violation. I think it is disgraceful that if we want to know if we are complying with a law, we have to buy a copy of the law from its owner.

[PANCHITO]

[QUOTE=AntAltMike;1265019]To clarify, it would be within DirecTV's specs, but not necessarily compliant with the NEC. The satellite service providers make their own practical choices regarding what they require of installers. Sometimes they require them to meet the Model NEC, but sometimes they don't. One major satellite internet provider tells its installers to use 5 foot rods for mast grounding, even though the code says 8 feet. Some DBS satellite service providers now allow installers to satisfy their own outer conductor grounding requirements by grounding just an external multiswitch, but as explained above, if that multiswitch is not located as near as possible to the point at which each and every switch output coax then enters the building, it does not satisfy the NEC requirement, and one, ten-gauge copper ground wire surely does not have current carrying capability approximately equal to the current carrying capability of the parallel, multiple outer conductors.




So you are telling that directv is not compliant under NEC and the installers do what directv want. :lol:

[AntAltMike]

So you are telling that directv is not compliant under NEC and the installers do what directv want. :lol:
If DirecTV is, in fact, now telling its installers that a single, ten gauge copper wire connected to an external multiswitch will satisfy its own grounding requirement, but not requiring them to install additional ground blocks in circumstances in which the multiswitch is not as near as possible to the point at which all of the coaxes enter the building or when the current carrying capability of a ten gauge wire does not approximately equal the current carrying capability of the coax's outer conductors, then DirecTV is not mandating compliance with the model NEC.

I got my Level 3 certificate directly from DirecTV back in 1998, before the SBCA got involved in this. I don't think that there were any questions about grounding on the test that I took and I do not receive updated info on installation standards from them, so I have to rely on what other current, certified installers tell us are DirecTV's current practices, but w7com is not the first certified DirecTV installer to report that, as he understand's DirecTV's current practices, an installer can satisfy their coax grounding requirement with a single 10 gauge wire to the multiswitch, regardless of other extenuating considerations, so I am inclined to accept his characterization of their policies in this regard as accurate.

[w7com]

Thanks AAM, This info is from the latest "Grounding Video" that I watched from DTV about 3 weeks ago. I also understand that the 6x8 MS needs to be where one would have placed a grounding block anyway in a non-multiswitch install.

Anyway, the picture at the start of the thread shows a nice clean install that I would have no problems with (except maybe with the blue fitting on the one coax.)



-Joe

[PANCHITO]

If DirecTV is, in fact, now telling its installers that a single, ten gauge copper wire connected to an external multiswitch will satisfy its own grounding requirement, but not requiring them to install additional ground blocks in circumstances in which the multiswitch is not as near as possible to the point at which all of the coaxes enter the building or when the current carrying capability of a ten gauge wire does not approximately equal the current carrying capability of the coax's outer conductors, then DirecTV is not mandating compliance with the model NEC.

I got my Level 3 certificate directly from DirecTV back in 1998, before the SBCA got involved in this. I don't think that there were any questions about grounding on the test that I took and I do not receive updated info on installation standards from them, so I have to rely on what other current, certified installers tell us are DirecTV's current practices, but w7com is not the first certified DirecTV installer to report that, as he understand's DirecTV's current practices, an installer can satisfy their coax grounding requirement with a single 10 gauge wire to the multiswitch, regardless of other extenuating considerations, so I am inclined to accept his characterization of their policies in this regard as accurate.


According to SBCA test books the ground block need to be as close to the ground source or within 20' feet, not to the point at which all of the coaxes enter the building.

[AntAltMike]

I recall that, beginning with the 2002 revision of the code, there was something that said that if the distance from the coax ground block to the ground system connection was more than 20 feet, then a ground rod had to be driven. I remember that the actual wording was silly, since, read literally, if your antenna was on a three story building and if one of your coaxes penetrated a third story wall to go to a third story bedroom, the distance even to an electrical entrance meter straight below it would be more than 20 feet. I think what they meant was that if the lateral or horizontal distance from the ground block to the ground system connection was more than 20 feet, a ground rod was supposed to be driven, but did a lousy job of trying to say so.

Coffey77 has said in this thread that some jurisdictions with which he is familiar have skipped the 2002 revision. In light of the confusing wording contained therein, I don't blame those that did, since they would otherwise be stuck interpreting and enforcing it.

NACE is holding SBCE certification classes in Philadelphia next week. I told my salesman over the phone to send me the registration info, but even though the responding e-mail she sent me said to, "click the link below for further information", she neglected to put such a link there. Since her last day working for NACE wound up being this past Tuesday, I suspect that her employment came to an untimely end.

Do you know if a technician can obtain Level Three certification without first obtaining level 1 and 2? When DirecTV was administering the tests themselves, I didn't have to have the lower level certification to be eligible for Level 3. I don't really care whether DirecTV requires baseboard staples to be 18" or 24" apart, nor do I care how many inch-pounds of torque anyone wants me to believe I have applied to an "F" connector, and don't want to have to spend an additional day and a few hundred additional dollars obtaining Level 1 and 2 certification if I can avoid it. In fact, back when I was still doing residential installation, DirecTV was more concerned with whether the installer had knowledge of non-technical but contractually significant matters, like if he knew how far away a telephone jack had to be before the installer was no longer obligated to furnish the phoneline connection for free.

[Coffey77]

, nor do I care how many inch-pounds of torque anyone wants me to believe I have applied to an "F" connector

Stop pretty much any electrician and see if he's got a torque device in his posession. I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find one and it would be a great scavenger hunt quest for those that do that game. ;)

[rambrush]

Time to throw out another question/comment:
My famous installer just tightend the connectors by fingers only. I inquired and he advised that if they are tightend with a wrench they can create shorts and problems. I am no certified installer but have always made sure all connections are good and snug with no problems.
So whats everyones take on this?

[AntAltMike]

A lot of consumer electronics manufacturers say to never wrench tighten F-connectors but the reason they say that is, they don't want the consumer breaking anything. I think the standard is 30 inch-pounds of torque, but, like Coffey7 said in the post above yours, try to find someone with a torque wrench.

[Coffey77]

I recall that, beginning with the 2002 revision of the code, there was something that said that if the distance from the coax ground block to the ground system connection was more than 20 feet, then a ground rod had to be driven. I remember that the actual wording was silly, since, read literally, if your antenna was on a three story building and if one of your coaxes penetrated a third story wall to go to a third story bedroom, the distance even to an electrical entrance meter straight below it would be more than 20 feet. I think what they meant was that if the lateral or horizontal distance from the ground block to the ground system connection was more than 20 feet, a ground rod was supposed to be driven, but did a lousy job of trying to say so.
This was actually clarified a bit more in 2005 NEC. It was more so to indicate a dish or antenna that was located away from the building (you'll see this with those big dishes of old and ones at many hotels that are out in the parking lot or potentially if you place a dish out on a post out in your yard - you are required to drive a "supplemental" grounding rod within 20' of the equipment. You are then required to put a minimum #6 AWG bonding wire (jumper) from the supplimental ground by the dish and attatch it to the Service Grounding Electrode (ground rod at Service entrance).Technically, as I understand it, on a roof install at a building with a steel structure - you can bond it to a part of a support beam or an approved piece of plumbing.

[Coffey77]

A lot of consumer manufacturer manufacturers say to never wrench tighten F-connectors but the reason they say that is, they don't want the consumer breaking anything. I think the standard is 30 inch-pounds of torque, but, like Coffey7 said in the post above yours, try to find someone with a torque wrench.

As AntAltMike says, the manufactures notes say - "Hand Tight" I believe or wording to that effect and most likely for the reason stated. I know that with electrical wire nuts - you void any warrantee and thus, liability, of the wire nut/manufacturer if you twist the wire prior to putting on the nut. They say that the nut should do the holding/twisting of the wire.

I am in no way affiliated with this company and infact paid them a tidy sum to attend the course but I highly recommend NTT Inc (http://nttinc.com/). They are not a sales group and don't try to push products on you whatsoever. I also recommend if you do attend an electrical portion or the course - find out if Mike Miers is teaching - he's an excellent teacher.

[PANCHITO]

I recall that, beginning with the 2002 revision of the code, there was something that said that if the distance from the coax ground block to the ground system connection was more than 20 feet, then a ground rod had to be driven. I remember that the actual wording was silly, since, read literally, if your antenna was on a three story building and if one of your coaxes penetrated a third story wall to go to a third story bedroom, the distance even to an electrical entrance meter straight below it would be more than 20 feet. I think what they meant was that if the lateral or horizontal distance from the ground block to the ground system connection was more than 20 feet, a ground rod was supposed to be driven, but did a lousy job of trying to say so.

Coffey77 has said in this thread that some jurisdictions with which he is familiar have skipped the 2002 revision. In light of the confusing wording contained therein, I don't blame those that did, since they would otherwise be stuck interpreting and enforcing it.

NACE is holding SBCE certification classes in Philadelphia next week. I told my salesman over the phone to send me the registration info, but even though the responding e-mail she sent me said to, "click the link below for further information", she neglected to put such a link there. Since her last day working for NACE would up being this past Tuesday, I suspect that her employment came to an untimely end.

Do you know if a technician can obtain Level Three certification without first obtaining level 1 and 2? When DirecTV was administering the tests themselves, I didn't have to have the lower level certification to be eligible for Level 3. I don't really care whether DirecTV requires baseboard staples to be 18" or 24" apart, nor do I care how many inch-pounds of torque anyone wants me to believe I have applied to an "F" connector, and don't want to have to spend an additional day and a few hundred additional dollars obtaining Level 1 and 2 certification if I can avoid it. In fact, back when I was still doing residential installation, DirecTV was more concerned with whether the installer had knowledge of non-technical but contractually significant matters, like if he knew how far away a telephone jack had to be before the installer was no longer obligated to furnish the phoneline connection for free.


From SBCA Q&A, you need to have level 1 and 2 to obtain level 3. Info about classes in your area are here http://www.sbcatest.com/nstptestdate.htm

[AntAltMike]

$200 for Level 1, $200 for Level 2, $500 for Level 3 and $300 for MFH1. I'll keep the $1,200 in my pocket for now.