Just ordered FIOS

[Spoonie]

After 12 years with D* I'm ready to move on.

Reasons for leaving.

1) No dual memory buffers in new HD-DVR (HR20)

2) Serious pixilation during shows that have camera flashes and fast paced action.

3) Super crappy SD picture quality.

All isn't perfect in FIOS land though. I'll be giving up the 30 second skip. That's all I could think of. Anything else?

[MikeR]

HD

[boba]

Good luck hope the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

[jodyguercio]

After 12 years with D* I'm ready to move on.

Reasons for leaving.

1) No dual memory buffers in new HD-DVR (HR20)

2) Serious pixilation during shows that have camera flashes and fast paced action.

3) Super crappy SD picture quality.

All isn't perfect in FIOS land though. I'll be giving up the 30 second skip. That's all I could think of. Anything else?

Cant you only record one HD show at a time right now?

[msmith198025]

HD

lol, pretty much a fact. But good luck:)

[msmith198025]

After 12 years with D* I'm ready to move on.

Reasons for leaving.

1) No dual memory buffers in new HD-DVR (HR20)

2) Serious pixilation during shows that have camera flashes and fast paced action.

3) Super crappy SD picture quality.

All isn't perfect in FIOS land though. I'll be giving up the 30 second skip. That's all I could think of. Anything else?

with number 2 i take a little issue. Ur basis for all of this is with the MPEG 2 stuff. Mpeg 4 is much much better. By many accounts the clearest HD offered today outside of Blu-ray and HD-DVD

[Spoonie]

Cant you only record one HD show at a time right now?

I have a HR-10-250. So the answer is no. I can record two HD channels at the same to with the HR10-250.

[Spoonie]

HD

From what I've read the FIOS HD is better. I'm going to keep my D* for a while before I make my final decision.

[msmith198025]

I have a HR-10-250. So the answer is no. I can record two HD channels at the same to with the HR10-250.

he meant with FIOS

[Crypter]

I have a HR-10-250. So the answer is no. I can record two HD channels at the same to with the HR10-250.

Well if you have an HR10-250 then you are missing out on all the new HD channels which are MPEG4 as opposed to MPEG2 (HR10-250). All the Pixelation you see is called Macro Blocking and is a compression artifact that appears with highly compressed MPEG2 video.

The new Channels do not exhibit this at all and look as good or better than ANYTHIGN out there. You will miss out the best HD Selection available.

But hey. Enjoy your FIOS.

[msmith198025]

From what I've read the FIOS HD is better. I'm going to keep my D* for a while before I make my final decision.

and again you will be comparing the older MPEG 2 hd which we all agree that FIOS will be better than. If you get a chance to check out the new stuff first id do it.

[tonyd79]

From what I've read the FIOS HD is better. I'm going to keep my D* for a while before I make my final decision.

Since Fios doesn't have but a handful of HD channels, it is hard to say it is better.

You are missing out on the MPEG4 HD on DirecTV which is artifact free.

Fios SD is better but DirecTV wins on HD hands down. Don't judge on the MPEG2 technology. That is winding down on DirecTV.

This is a dumb time to move to Fios. They are going to be limited for at least a year on their offerings (they have to update all of their infrastructure) and DirecTV is blazing ahead.

[Spoonie]

with number 2 i take a little issue. Ur basis for all of this is with the MPEG 2 stuff. Mpeg 4 is much much better. By many accounts the clearest HD offered today outside of Blu-ray and HD-DVD

I've read that FIOS HD is better simply because of bandwidth. D* cannot offer the type of bandwidth that fios can. I do have a MPEG 4 box and the channels are better. Too bad D*'s MPEG4 HD-DVR doesn't have DLBs. If it did I would stick with D*. Well... Maybe not. I'm tired of my H10-250 and to be honest my ultimate TV DVR (from 1997) was much nicer. The H10-250 wasn't too well though out IMO. Can't wait to get rid of it. I'm thinking about smashing it with a hammer and then post the vid on Youtube.

[Spoonie]

he meant with FIOS

Are you telling me that Fios can only record one HD show at a time?

[msmith198025]

I've read that FIOS HD is better simply because of bandwidth. D* cannot offer the type of bandwidth that fios can. I do have a MPEG 4 box and the channels are better. Too bad D*'s MPEG4 HD-DVR doesn't have DLBs. If it did I would stick with D*. Well... Maybe not. I'm tired of my H10-250 and to be honest my ultimate TV DVR (from 1997) was much nicer. The H10-250 wasn't too well though out IMO. Can't wait to get rid of it. I'm thinking about smashing it with a hammer and then post the vid on Youtube.

What box do you have thats mpeg 4? H-20?
D* has as much bandwidth as anyone can possibly have right now. With more to come on the new sat.

[msmith198025]

Are you telling me that Fios can only record one HD show at a time?

thats what he was asking you. Id check into that first

[Crypter]

Are you telling me that Fios can only record one HD show at a time?

That is what he was insinuating. If your sole reason for leaving D* is DLB then I would advise you to make sure they offer it on the FIOS HD DVR. Also I am sure D* will be adding DLB to the HR20 eventually.

[harsh]

Are you telling me that Fios can only record one HD show at a time?That's what jodyguercio said, but I think this may be a uVerse issue as opposed to a FIOS issue.

Any reports of your impressions should include which DVR software release you're using as there has been a new version unleashed recently and the comments are mixed.

[tonyd79]

I've read that FIOS HD is better simply because of bandwidth. D* cannot offer the type of bandwidth that fios can.

You need to catch up.

DirecTV is not anywhere near hitting a bandwidth limit right now and they have another satellite going up early next year.

Fios is limited to the channels right now because their national distribution systems are maxed out. They cannot use the bandwidth they technically have because their equipment can't do it. They have not added an HD channel in months and have announced no plans to add anymore.

If you have MPEG4, what are you looking for to be better? You are fantasizing about something that doesn't exist.

[msmith198025]

That's what jodyguercio said, but I think this may be a uVerse issue as opposed to a FIOS issue.

Any reports of your impressions should include which DVR software release you're using as there has been a new version unleashed recently and the comments are mixed.

yeah i know it is for U-verse too, not sure about FIOS, but he should probably check into it

[Spoonie]

What box do you have thats mpeg 4? H-20?
D* has as much bandwidth as anyone can possibly have right now. With more to come on the new sat.

Its the H20 and to be honest I like the unit.

[harsh]

Also I am sure D* will be adding DLB to the HR20 eventually.And Comcast might decrease their rates too. :nono:

[Spoonie]

You need to catch up.

DirecTV is not anywhere near hitting a bandwidth limit right now and they have another satellite going up early next year.

Fios is limited to the channels right now because their national distribution systems are maxed out. They cannot use the bandwidth they technically have because their equipment can't do it. They have not added an HD channel in months and have announced no plans to add anymore.

If you have MPEG4, what are you looking for to be better? You are fantasizing about something that doesn't exist.

DLBs and MPEG4, That’s what I'm fantasizing about. And how long did it take for D* to finally add the new HD channels? I remember D* promising new HD channels back in 05 and they finally delivered 2 years later. Hopefully it wont take then that long for D* to add DLBs to the MPEG 4 DVRs. if FIOS doesn't provide the ability to record 2 HD shows simultaneously then I'm going to stick with D*.

[harsh]

The one major advantage to FIOS is that they seem to be willing to add even PEG channels. The satellite providers have both been pretty quiet on that front for a while now seemingly doing little more than infill of missing channels.

[msmith198025]

Its the H20 and to be honest I like the unit.

honestly if you like the H-20 you would love the HR-20. DLB aside its a great box.
actually if you look around on here there are some work around for the DLB issue.

[MikeR7]

Spoonie - FIOS does not have DLB. From a DTV to FIOS convert:


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1220719&postcount=7

[tonyd79]

DLBs and MPEG4, That’s what I'm fantasizing about. And how long did it take for D* to finally add the new HD channels? I remember D* promising new HD channels back in 05 and they finally delivered 2 years later. Hopefully it wont take then that long for D* to add DLBs to the MPEG 4 DVRs. if FIOS doesn't provide the ability to record 2 HD shows simultaneously then I'm going to stick with D*.

Okay, either you are mixed up or you are spinning.

The new HD channels that they mentioned in 2005 were always scheduled for summer 2007. They hit that (summer ends in September).

Ask Fios when they are going to add HD channels above the ones they have now. They have no date.

And you can record two things at a time with the HR20. It is just live buffers it is missing. I think you would have to go to Tivo to get dual live buffers on Fios. And you have stated you don't like Tivo (as the HR10 is a tivo).

I give up. You have your facts mixed up and you keep changing your reasons.

[braven]

See ya, hope you enjoy FIOS.

[mchaney]

I've read that FIOS HD is better simply because of bandwidth. D* cannot offer the type of bandwidth that fios can. I do have a MPEG 4 box and the channels are better. Too bad D*'s MPEG4 HD-DVR doesn't have DLBs. If it did I would stick with D*. Well... Maybe not. I'm tired of my H10-250 and to be honest my ultimate TV DVR (from 1997) was much nicer. The H10-250 wasn't too well though out IMO. Can't wait to get rid of it. I'm thinking about smashing it with a hammer and then post the vid on Youtube.

Right now, FIOS is more limited in bandwidth than DirecTV and it will be that way for quite some time (until Verizon upgrades their headends). Never really understood the need for dual buffers. Want to slip/slide two shows, just record them both. FIOS also just rolled out their 2.0 guide system which is a major step backward on their DVR. Everyone is complaining about it: the new version no longer asks if you want to delete a show at the end of playback and you have to go back to the list, find it, and delete it. Problems with stability, reboots, and lockups. Greatly reduced recording capacity (down to 47 hours). No longer an option to remove unwanted channels from the listing. Etc. All this from a friend undergoing the change to 2.0 FIOS.

And I've also viewed the FIOS HD channels against my own DirecTV and I see no difference in quality comparing the FIOS HD to the DirecTV MPEG 4 channels. I've always hated the artifacts in the MPEG-2 stuff but that's going away. So good luck on your FIOS, but prepare to be underwhelmed!

Mike

[Spoonie]

honestly if you like the H-20 you would love the HR-20. DLB aside its a great box.
actually if you look around on here there are some work around for the DLB issue.

Can you point me to where. I saw somthing about recording both shows, but the pause will only work with one tuner at a time. So if I'm recording both shows and pause one show (to flip to the other tuner). When I go back to the other tuner (which was paused) it will be live and the pause point will be lost.

[Spoonie]

Okay, either you are mixed up or you are spinning.

The new HD channels that they mentioned in 2005 were always scheduled for summer 2007. They hit that (summer ends in September).

Ask Fios when they are going to add HD channels above the ones they have now. They have no date.

And you can record two things at a time with the HR20. It is just live buffers it is missing. I think you would have to go to Tivo to get dual live buffers on Fios. And you have stated you don't like Tivo (as the HR10 is a tivo).

I give up. You have your facts mixed up and you keep changing your reasons.

How many times was the D* satellite launches delayed?

And the Fios HD-DVR (Motorola 6416) has DLBs.

All I’m looking for is a current service that provides the functionality that I already have. D*'s new HD-DVR doesn’t provide the functionality that I’m looking for. Am I “mixed up” because I want to maintain my current level of functionality?

Also, show me where did I change my reasons.

[MikeR7]

Can you point me to where. I saw somthing about recording both shows, but the pause will only work with one tuner at a time. So if I'm recording both shows and pause one show (to flip to the other tuner). When I go back to the other tuner (which was paused) it will be live and the pause point will be lost.

No this is not true. I record two shows all the time and switch back and forth to where I paused them.

I have a HR10-250 which I bought this summer just to see what all the fuss about DLB was and sure it works a little faster, but then you only have a 30 minute buffer which sometimes can be a problem.

[MikeR7]

See my post #26 above. A FIOS user reports no DLB.

[mchaney]

Can you point me to where. I saw somthing about recording both shows, but the pause will only work with one tuner at a time. So if I'm recording both shows and pause one show (to flip to the other tuner). When I go back to the other tuner (which was paused) it will be live and the pause point will be lost.

Not true. If you use the list to pick your recorded/recording show, it has a pointer for every show on the list. You can go back and forth between two currently recording shows and pick up where you left off by simply choosing "resume". It starts playing from the point where you paused it last.

Mike

[Blackz06]

I got an ad in the mail regarding FiOS, and one really cool feature on there I thought way cool, was that if you record a show on one receiver you can watch it on any other receiver in your home.

There's got to be other reasons why you'd leave D* right when all these new HD channels are released. Like previously mentioned with the new mpeg4 pq looks great on HD channels, and I sware, hopefully it's not just me, but when D* turned the new bird on, their SD channels' pq also improved. Missing out on all these new things over a DLB seems a bit odd. But hey, to each his own. Good luck with FiOS.

[mchaney]

I got an ad in the mail regarding FiOS, and one really cool feature on there I thought way cool, was that if you record a show on one receiver you can watch it on any other receiver in your home.

That's cool. I've wanted that for years. Seems like with the Ethernet connection on the HR20, they ought to be able to program that... if they wanted to through your home network. I keep wondering which HRxx is going to offer wireless 802.11 right in the box. Here's hoping for the future.

Mike

[jpl]

I can clarify some of this. The Verizon DVR doesn't currently support DLBs, but it does have dual tuners. It operates much like the HR20/R15 in that regard. There's a single live TV buffer and 2 tuners, allowing you to record two shows at once.

As for the addition of HDs by Verizon, I can only pass along what I've heard. Yes, they have some bandwidth issues because of they way that their system is designed - for the time-being. How long until they get rid of that limitation? It's actually already started. Here's the deal - and I've spelled it out on other threads, so forgive me if I'm being redundant:

- Currently FiOS runs QAM, just like cable. Most of the cable offices run 103 QAMs, but some of the older ones still only have 94. They are actively upgrading those cable offices so that they're all up to 103. Doing some very basic math that gives them the space to add 18 HD channels (2 HD channels per QAM).

- Next up - analogs. FiOS currently has 40 QAMs dedicated to analog channels. These are only locals (including local access channels, and TV Guide Channel and Weatherscan Local). They also broadcast these locals digitally - so if you have an STB, you get the channels in digital, if you don't you get them in analog. Why they did this, I have no earthly idea. They are currently eliminating their analogs. All new markets that are coming on line don't have any analogs at all. They plan (based on what I've heard recently) on having all their analogs eliminated by April 2008 - based on how these things go, I'd give it until mid-summer 08. Again, do the math, and you'll see that this allows FiOS to add another 80 HD channels.

- Next up, there are 135 QAMs that can be used, and Verizon's system can handle (with appropriate h/w updates) all of them. That's an extra 32 QAMs => 64 more HD channels. Will Verizon do this? I don't think so. It's pretty expensive, and QAM is a stop-gap for Verizon. Which leads to:

- IPTV - Verizon's plan all along is to go full IP. They currently run some stuff via IP (guide data, widgets, VOD), but they'll be moving to full IP before long. How long? Well, based on what Verizon has advertised, they're looking at having this done by late 2010/early 2011. Based on what I've been reading though, they're looking at early 2009. When that happens, their bandwidth goes through the roof.

Really, whether the change is right for you or not depends on what you're looking for. For me, FiOS was the better deal. I save money and I get more of what I'm looking for. I get more SD channels (and I have every confidence that the HD is coming), and the best PQ I've ever seen (although I've never seen DirecTV's new HD channels - and I can believe they look pretty amazing).

[Spoonie]

Right now, FIOS is more limited in bandwidth than DirecTV and it will be that way for quite some time (until Verizon upgrades their headends). Never really understood the need for dual buffers. Want to slip/slide two shows, just record them both. FIOS also just rolled out their 2.0 guide system which is a major step backward on their DVR. Everyone is complaining about it: the new version no longer asks if you want to delete a show at the end of playback and you have to go back to the list, find it, and delete it. Problems with stability, reboots, and lockups. Greatly reduced recording capacity (down to 47 hours). No longer an option to remove unwanted channels from the listing. Etc. All this from a friend undergoing the change to 2.0 FIOS.

And I've also viewed the FIOS HD channels against my own DirecTV and I see no difference in quality comparing the FIOS HD to the DirecTV MPEG 4 channels. I've always hated the artifacts in the MPEG-2 stuff but that's going away. So good luck on your FIOS, but prepare to be underwhelmed!

Mike

Thanks for the reply.

Just because you don’t understand the need for dual buffers doesn't mean that it isn't a great feature.


Sunday I was able to watch Dexter on showtime and Drag Racing on ESPN2. I would pause the drag racing before the commercials began and then flip over to Dexter. About 3 minutes later I would pause Dexter, switch back to the Drag Racing, and fast-forward past the commercials to get to the show. When the commercials came on again I would flip back to Dexter which would be at the same pause point that I left it at. This saves time because the time that would have been spent watching commercials is now being used to watch another program. I can watch two one-hour shows in about an hour and 20 minutes. This cannot be done without DLBs. Without DLB’s the show on the other channel would be live. Switching to the other channel will put you at a part of the show (or show a result) that I may not have been ready for. This means that results gets ruined because I didn’t get to see how it happened. I could rewind but at that point what is the use?

[msmith198025]

Can you point me to where. I saw somthing about recording both shows, but the pause will only work with one tuner at a time. So if I'm recording both shows and pause one show (to flip to the other tuner). When I go back to the other tuner (which was paused) it will be live and the pause point will be lost.

ill look and see if i can find it. But my understanding is if you record both you can pause and swap back and forth

[raott]

I can clarify some of this. The Verizon DVR doesn't currently support DLBs, but it does have dual tuners. It operates much like the HR20/R15 in that regard. There's a single live TV buffer and 2 tuners, allowing you to record two shows at once.




jpl - do you have a "swap" button on the bottom of your remote? When you push it - what does it do?

I'm asking because I believe fios uses the moto 6416. I used the 6416 all summer (via Insight Cable) while staying in temporary quarters while our house was being built. The incarnation I used, the moto 6416 with the I-guide software, most definately has DLBs.

Is verizon using their own software on the 6416?

[MikeR7]

Thanks for the reply.

Just because you don’t understand the need for dual buffers doesn't mean that it isn't a great feature.


Sunday I was able to watch Dexter on showtime and Drag Racing on ESPN2. I would pause the drag racing before the commercials began and then flip over to Dexter. About 3 minutes later I would pause Dexter, switch back to the Drag Racing, and fast-forward past the commercials to get to the show. When the commercials came on again I would flip back to Dexter which would be at the same pause point that I left it at. This saves time because the time that would have been spent watching commercials is now being used to watch another program. I can watch two one-hour shows in about an hour and 20 minutes. This cannot be done without DLBs. Without DLB’s the show on the other channel would be live. Switching to the other channel will put you at a part of the show (or show a result) that I may not have been ready for. This means that results gets ruined because I didn’t get to see how it happened. I could rewind but at that point what is the use?

You are not reading the posts, so why should we bother?:nono:

[Spoonie]

Not true. If you use the list to pick your recorded/recording show, it has a pointer for every show on the list. You can go back and forth between two currently recording shows and pick up where you left off by simply choosing "resume". It starts playing from the point where you paused it last.

Mike

That sounds good but involves navigating through menus. DLB's are much more streamlined (press pause, switch tuners). Either way it’s nice that it can be done

[Spoonie]

You are not reading the posts, so why should we bother?:nono:

Enlighten me. What did I miss?

[msmith198025]

That sounds good but involves navigating through menus. DLB's are much more streamlined (press pause, switch tuners). Either way it’s nice that it can be done

well like was said its a work around. Its your choice however id do some more research on FIOS before i switched. Right now for MOST D* seems to be the better choice. More HD, more bandwidth and more of both coming. Who knows a DLB may be in the works on some future box, but you wont see it like you want on the HR-20. Thats why people are telling others about the work around

[MikeR7]

I think you finally got it in your answer to mchaney

[jimb726]

ill look and see if i can find it. But my understanding is if you record both you can pause and swap back and forth
Yes you absolutely can. This Sunday and every Sunday, I record the Browns and the NASCAR race. As long as I am watching from the recordings, I can exit one to the other and pick right up where I left off. It is clunky but can be done in around 4 button pushes instead of one.

[jodyguercio]

Are you telling me that Fios can only record one HD show at a time?

I went searching on their website. I couldnt find definitive proof that only one HD program could be recorded but I did find the following:

1) Multi-room features are supported on standard Model 2500 Set Top Boxes only: thats where I get the only 1 HD recording

2) Does the Home Media DVR support HD programs streamed to the 2500?
No, HD programs can only be viewed on the DVR.

Basically I would call them and make sure that I'm not telling you something that isnt 100% true.

[raott]

jpl - do you have a "swap" button on the bottom of your remote? When you push it - what does it do?

I'm asking because I believe fios uses the moto 6416 - which I used all summer while staying in temporary quarters while our house was being built. The incarnation I used, the moto 6416 with the I-guide software, most definately has DLBs.

Is verizon using their own software on the 6416?

Nevermind, I found my own answer (assuming wikipedia is correct):

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_use_a_Motorola_DVR/Firmware_and_Software

"The software used depends on your cable system. There are several current suppliers. The software is the user interface that you see, and typically handles the scheduling, program guide, PPV/VOD and other complicated features.

The Interactive Programming Guide (IPG) software can be provided by i-Guide (Comcast, Time Warner, Adelphia, Mediacom, Brighthouse Communications, et al), Passport Echo (Cox, RCN), or Microsoft TV Foundation Edition ("MSTV Foundation Edition" or MSFE) (Verizon, Comcast in WA state)."

[Spoonie]

See my post #26 above. A FIOS user reports no DLB.

See post #40. Another FIOS user says otherwise. We're not sure what type of receiver the other FIOS user had. But everything that I've been reading suggest that the Motorola 6416 (FIOS current HD-DVR) does indeed have dual-buffers. I could be wrong but I doubt it. There's also a post/faq on this web site that says that the FIOS HD-DVR has DLBs. Link Below.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

[raott]

See post #40. Another FIOS user says otherwise. We're not sure what type of receiver the other FIOS user had. But everything that I've been reading suggest that the Motorola 6416 (FIOS current HD-DVR) does indeed have dual-buffers. I could be wrong but I doubt it. There's also a post/faq on this web site that says that the FIOS HD-DVR has DLBs. Link Below.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

Let me clarify, I did not use fios over the summer, what I meant was I used the 6416 over the summer (via Insight Cable) and was questioning whether verizon had implemented different software on the 6416 than Insight had.

Which, after a bit of research, it appears is the case as Verizon does not use i-guide. Insight (and most other cable companies) use i-guide, which does have DLBs.

[Spoonie]

So is everyone saying that the person who posted this is wrong?

"While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.

1. Dish Network – ViP622
2. Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4. MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
5. CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6. CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
7. FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)
8. AT&T – allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo."

Link from other post on dbstalk (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118)

[Spoonie]

I went searching on their website. I couldnt find definitive proof that only one HD program could be recorded but I did find the following:

1) Multi-room features are supported on standard Model 2500 Set Top Boxes only: thats where I get the only 1 HD recording

2) Does the Home Media DVR support HD programs streamed to the 2500?
No, HD programs can only be viewed on the DVR.

Basically I would call them and make sure that I'm not telling you something that isnt 100% true.

I did call them and asked their tech support. The tech support rep said that the moto 6416 does have DLBs. But he could have thought that I was talking about dual tuners.:confused:

[msmith198025]

So is everyone saying that the person who posted this is wrong?

"While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.

1. Dish Network – ViP622
2. Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4. MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
5. CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6. CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
7. FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)
8. AT&T – allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo."

Link from other post on dbstalk (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118)

Not saying he is wrong, but not sure if he is right either. He doesnt have fios to my knowledge

[msmith198025]

I did call them and asked their tech support. The tech support rep said that the moto 6416 does have DLBs. But he could have thought that I was talking about dual tuners.:confused:

Id call back and clarify. or check at AVS. i think there is a fios thread there

[raott]

My suggestion would be to try and find a manual for fios or for microsoft tv foundation edition (the software verizon is apparently using) and see if it mentions anything like dlb. Maybe look for something regarding the "swap" button on the remote, though, that button may not even be there in verizon's implementation.

The feature is clearly stated in the i-guide manual, though it is not called dlb (search the dlb thread and you'll see it, I've posted information on dlbs and i-guide in that thread previously).

[nhey]

I have BOTH FIOS and D* so here's the story:

1) No difference in HD quality between FIOS HD and D* mpeg-4 HD. I've done numerous A/B comparisons to the same input on my calibrated Qualia 006. NO DIFFERENCE. When comparing OTA channels on all three boxes, such as CBS or NBC HD which don't use subchannels in my area, I can't tell a difference between the 3 sources. Perfect example are the Sunday football games. I'd actually have to say that MPEG-4 from D* is the most artifact free HD broadcast I've ever seen; better even than OTA (have a roof top antenna for OTA).

2)FIOS SD is much better than D* SD; but I watch almost no SD programming.

3) FIOS Moto 6416 DVR sucks. NO DUAL LIVE BUFFERS. I have the Tivo Series 3 with 2 cablecards. Gives me dual live buffers and easy to switch between tuners. Can't imagine anyone with FIOS not getting it or the TIVOHD. Of course, means no PPV or VOD but FIOS currently has ZERO HD vod. Get the TIVOHD box - only $299. I've added a 750 gb eSATA drive to my Series 3, which is now supported.

4) Have the HD20-700. Miss dual live buffers, but the box is perfectly usable. Better than any other non-TIVO box I've ever used such as any of the Motorola boxes used by FIOS or Comcast (had Comcast; dumped it for FIOS).

5) D* is light-years ahead of FIOS in terms of responding to customer demands. FIOS is definitely a "newbie" and has had growing pains. Their management should have better anticipated the need to be able to handle all the new HD channels but they blew it. They take forever to add new HD channels, and then don't let anyone know it's coming until its been added. They have a lot to learn. As has been stated above, it will be the second half next year before considerable new HD additions can be made.

6) I believe FIOS when they say they will never downrez HD. I'm keeping them because I live in Mercer County NJ and get all the NY and Philly locals in HD (there's no other way for me to get NY locals in HD). I'm not sure D* won't play with bandwidth at some point in the future but I'm hoping they will have learned from the HD-lite "debacle". I am very happy with D* these days.

[msmith198025]

I have BOTH FIOS and D* so here's the story:

1) No difference in HD quality between FIOS HD and D* mpeg-4 HD. I've done numerous A/B comparisons to the same input on my calibrated Qualia 006. NO DIFFERENCE. When comparing OTA channels on all three boxes, such as CBS or NBC HD which don't use subchannels in my area, I can't tell a difference between the 3 sources. Perfect example are the Sunday football games. I'd actually have to say that MPEG-4 from D* is the most artifact free HD broadcast I've ever seen; better even than OTA (have a roof top antenna for OTA).

2)FIOS SD is much better than D* SD; but I watch almost no SD programming.

3) FIOS Moto 6416 DVR sucks. NO DUAL LIVE BUFFERS. I have the Tivo Series 3 with 2 cablecards. Gives me dual live buffers and easy to switch between tuners. Can't imagine anyone with FIOS not getting it or the TIVOHD. Of course, means no PPV or VOD but FIOS currently has ZERO HD vod. Get the TIVOHD box - only $299. I've added a 750 gb eSATA drive to my Series 3, which is now supported.

4) Have the HD20-700. Miss dual live buffers, but the box is perfectly usable. Better than any other non-TIVO box I've ever used such as any of the Motorola boxes used by FIOS or Comcast (had Comcast; dumped it for FIOS).

assuming he is telling the truth sounds like a good comparison

[nhey]

assuming he is telling the truth sounds like a good comparison


Yes, It's all absolutely true. I've added a few more points to my post above.

[msmith198025]

Yes, It's all absolutely true.

ill take your word for it:)

[kwsmithphoto]

You are missing out on the MPEG4 HD on DirecTV which is artifact free.

I wish! The squiggles and squares are gone but it has a really hard time with fades to black, and gradiated tones of color without detail, like a sky that's goes from lighter to darker across the frame. It posterizes them (banding) and gets pretty grainy. Friend of mine who does QC for a major Blu-Ray content producer says it's caused by too much compression; the encoder gets confused by subtle variations in tone without detail if you dial it up too much. They get around it by varying the bitrate frame by frame but of course DTV has no way of doing that because it's not a realtime process.

I've seen it on known MPEG4 channels so it's not an MPEG2 problem - which, btw, can look just fine (Sony uses it on most of their Blu-Ray disks). MPEG4 is theoretically better of course and can handle much more compression, but it can also be ruined by too much compression.

Other than that though the HD image quality on DTV is quite good, better than TWC here for sure, but they could do better by not whacking it so hard.

If would be nice if DTV used the upcoming bandwidth to back off on their compression system-wide but that's -never- been their pattern, they just add more content.

BTW, I've seen FIOS and it looks pretty good, better than SD on DTV. But I'm really only interested in their internet service - being a photographer, upload speed is more important than download speed, and FIOS is considerably better suited for that. Don't have it on my street but I've seen Verizon running cables on a main road nearby so it's only a matter of time.

[TedBarrett]

I like D*. Had the service for 11 years right now with HD and DoD it's the best it's ever been. Have no intention of leaving.

But, this thread reads like a love bombing at the local weird religion cult. If the guy wants to leave - Happy Trails.

just kidding, maybe not

[jpl]

See post #40. Another FIOS user says otherwise. We're not sure what type of receiver the other FIOS user had. But everything that I've been reading suggest that the Motorola 6416 (FIOS current HD-DVR) does indeed have dual-buffers. I could be wrong but I doubt it. There's also a post/faq on this web site that says that the FIOS HD-DVR has DLBs. Link Below.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

I think I can (hopefully) provide further clarification. The moto DVR that Verizon uses CAN support DLB. Comcast uses essentially the same box - the DTC6412 (I think that's the model). Comcast currently does have DLB. So the hardware is capable of supporting it. Verizon's firmware, however, does not support this feature. That being said, there are some users who've gotten it to work some of the time. With Verizon's new IMG s/w, some folks, when they hit the 'last' button on their DVR are able to go back to the prior channel, with the buffer maintained. However, this sounds like a bug to me. Most users with the new s/w do not have this capability, and Verizon currently does not support it (although they are looking at adding it).

I can't speak to this as I don't yet have their new guide s/w. On my DVR, there is no DLB. The short of it is - Verizon currently does not support DLB.

[KurtV]

The work around for the lack of DLBs is so simple and effective that it's not really even a workaround.

1. Record the 2 programs you want to watch (super easy with one touch record).
2. Hit the List button.
3. Select the program you want to watch first from the list so you're watching the recording instead of live.
4. When you want to switch, hit List and then Select or hit List, Down Arrow, and then Select (the two programs you're recording will be the top two in the list).

It's literally 2 or 3 button presses where as with DLBs it's 2 (pause, previous channel). After you watch two football games at the same time once, you won't even think about DLBs.

The other advantage to the HR20 way is that it's idiot proof. How many times have you hit channel down instead of previous channel and lost one of your buffers? I know it happened to me many times with a DirecTivo box. You can't do that if you just record both programs and watch them from the list.

[GP_23]

As they say the Grass is always Greener on the other side, but I have been more than happy with all the new HD channels, haven't watched the ones with the so called stretch-o-vision, but I love my HD!

[mchaney]

The wok around for the lack of DLBs is so simple and effective that it's not really even a workaround. <snip>

Exactly my thoughts. I really can't figure out why people are so enamored with DLB. Just recording the two shows works just as well if not better, as I've also inadvertently pressed the wrong button and ended up with a lost buffer (when I had my HR10-250). Recording the two shows you want to buffer does the same thing as DLB and more, even if it costs a click or two more on the initial setup.

Mike

[bwaldron]

Exactly my thoughts. I really can't figure out why people are so enamored with DLB. Just recording the two shows works just as well if not better, as I've also inadvertently pressed the wrong button and ended up with a lost buffer (when I had my HR10-250). Recording the two shows you want to buffer does the same thing as DLB and more, even if it costs a click or two more on the initial setup.

Recording two shows requires allocating disk space, which may be at somewhat of a premium for many users -- especially when the two recordings are being used to switch between two sports broadcasts that can be quite lengthy, you are using up a non-negligible amount of space while doing the DLB workaround.

[spartanstew]

If you're leaving D* to go to FIOS because of the DVR, you're in for a big surprise. The HR20 might not have DLB's, but almost everything else about it is superior to what FIOS is putting out in terms of a DVR. Unless you plan on paying for a Tivo standalone to use with FIOS, you'll be disappointed. The very poor FIOS DVR is the main reason I stayed with D*.

Check out some of the threads at AVS regarding their DVR. Everytime they send an update to the boxes, the usability goes backwards. Several members report that it actually records their shows less than 25% of the time and needs rebooting constantly.

[JLucPicard]

Just because you don’t understand the need for dual buffers doesn't mean that it isn't a great feature.


Sunday I was able to watch Dexter on showtime and Drag Racing on ESPN2. I would pause the drag racing before the commercials began and then flip over to Dexter. About 3 minutes later I would pause Dexter, switch back to the Drag Racing, and fast-forward past the commercials to get to the show. When the commercials came on again I would flip back to Dexter which would be at the same pause point that I left it at. This saves time because the time that would have been spent watching commercials is now being used to watch another program. I can watch two one-hour shows in about an hour and 20 minutes. This cannot be done without DLBs. Without DLB’s the show on the other channel would be live. Switching to the other channel will put you at a part of the show (or show a result) that I may not have been ready for. This means that results gets ruined because I didn’t get to see how it happened. I could rewind but at that point what is the use?
I'm going to echo what KurtV said in post #63.

In your scenario (quoted), what I would be doing is recording both programs and watching Dexter all the way through (for that matter, I could record the race and watch Dexter live). Then I will have watched Dexter in a manner where I could coherently follow the story without picking up multiple clips interspersed with the race. Then when Dexter is over, I could start watching the race, FF through commercials and see the race in it's entirety and there wouldn't be anything spoiled.

That's just me, maybe. I'm not a channel surfer and prefer to watch a program from beginning to end without a lot of interuptions. Little different on Sundays with football, but my preference all the same.

I really do hope you get what you want and need from FIOS. If that is the option that satisfies you, then I'm all for someone switching.

Personally, DirecTV is giving me so much now that there's no way in hell I'd give it up primarily for DLB (this coming from someone who has - and utilizes the heck out of - an aresenal of SD and HD DirecTiVos). I'll still use my HR10-250s for OTA and SD. But my HR20s are going to be my workhorses with all the MPEG4 stuff flowing into my house!

Good luck, spoonie!

[raott]

The wok around for the lack of DLBs is so simple and effective that it's not really even a workaround.

1. Record the 2 programs you want to watch (super easy with one touch record).
2. Hit the List button.
3. Select the program you want to watch first from the list so you're watching the recording instead of live.
4. When you want to switch, hit List and then Select or hit List, Down Arrow, and then Select (the two programs you're recording will be the top two in the list).

It's literally 2 or 3 button presses where as with DLBs it's 2 (pause, previous channel). After you watch two football games at the same time once, you won't even think about DLBs.

The other advantage to the HR20 way is that it's idiot proof. How many times have you hit channel down instead of previous channel and lost one of your buffers? I know it happened to me many times with a DirecTivo box. You can't do that if you just record both programs and watch them from the list.

The reasons that it is not so "simple" have been hashed and rehashed a hundred times in the dlb thread - not sure why some continue ignore them but to summarize (again):

- what if you are trying to buffer a 30 minute show like local news, ESPNNews etc, your buffer is gone when the show ends and you have to redo the recording - wash, rinse and repeat every 30 minutes
- if you decide one game is not good and want to go to another, gotta tell it yeah, stop recording, then switch to another game and then record again
- what if you have an R15 - you've likely hit up against the 100 "to-do" limit, gotta tell it what show in the future not to record - only then do you get to record your new show
- if you are dlb'ing a game and the game runs long, either gotta pad or your buffer is gone once the recording is finished - more steps
- if you use it alot, be prepared to clean up the mess of partial recordings afterwards

These are not out of the ordinary things, especially if you are using dlb's for sports. These happen all the time. So why not acknowledge all the extra steps instead of glossing over them.

Hitting the down arrow is so much simpler.

[mishawaka]

The Manifesto

[mchaney]

Recording two shows requires allocating disk space, which may be at somewhat of a premium for many users -- especially when the two recordings are being used to switch between two sports broadcasts that can be quite lengthy, you are using up a non-negligible amount of space while doing the DLB workaround.

True, if you're really that close to full on disk space. There are other obvious advantages that outweigh this, however, like the fact that inadvertently pressing channel up/down if you are recording two shows won't instantly kill one of the buffers and the fact that you're not limited to the amount of time you can go back as you are with a rolling buffer, or the fact that the buffers are not unlimited so getting interrupted or staying on one buffer too long won't cause the other buffer to lose its place. All in all, I prefer the record-two-shows option over DLB for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that I know if I get interrupted and have to go do something else, I at least know that the two shows I'm recording will stay on the HD and I'll have a real record of them. To me, DLB is the workaround. Recording both shows should be the main method: it's safer in general if you know you want to watch both shows and you don't want to risk something interrupting at least one of them.

Mike

[mchaney]

- what if you are trying to buffer a 30 minute show like local news, ESPNNews etc, your buffer is gone when the show ends and you have to redo the recording - wash, rinse and repeat every 30 minutes


What if you get interrupted and you come back hours later to find that your buffer wasn't big enough and the only thing in your buffer is 90 minutes of "you are watching DirecTV NFL Sunday Ticket"?


- if you decide one game is not good and want to go to another, gotta tell it yeah, stop recording, then switch to another game and then record again


Much better than inadvertently hitting the wrong button and having your buffer instantly erased and replaced with the last few seconds of "Barney and Friends".


- what if you have an R15 - you've likely hit up against the 100 "to-do" limit, gotta tell it what show in the future not to record - only then do you get to record your new show


What's an R15? ;)


- if you are dlb'ing a game and the game runs long, either gotta pad or your buffer is gone once the recording is finished - more steps


Just another couple of clicks to record whatever show/game comes on after the one you are watching. I'd do that for any event that doesn't have a set end.


- if you use it alot, be prepared to clean up the mess of partial recordings afterwards


Again, confirming deletion is better than inadvertent deletion. And if you are recording two shows that you want to watch, when you get to the end, it's going to ask you if you want to delete them anyway.

Hitting the down arrow is so much simpler.

Simpler... sometimes. Riskier... always!

Mike

[KurtV]

The reasons that it is not so "simple" have been hashed and rehashed a hundred times in the dlb thread - not sure why some continue ignore them but to summarize (again):

- what if you are trying to buffer a 30 minute show like local news, ESPNNews etc, your buffer is gone when the show ends and you have to redo the recording - wash, rinse and repeat every 30 minutes
- if you decide one game is not good and want to go to another, gotta tell it yeah, stop recording, then switch to another game and then record again
That's one button press to tell it which one to stop recording when the screen pops up to tell you about the conflict.
- what if you have an R15 - you've likely hit up against the 100 "to-do" limit, gotta tell it what show in the future not to record - only then do you get to record your new show
Haven't run into that one and I don't keep enough things to do in the to-do list that I ever will. That is a bit more hassle for those who record many series.
- if you are dlb'ing a game and the game runs long, either gotta pad or your buffer is gone once the recording is finished - more steps
I always pad games by 30 or 60 minutes anyhow; they almost always run over.
- if you use it alot, be prepared to clean up the mess of partial recordings afterwards
Dash-dash. Not a big deal to me; apparently is to others.

These are not out of the ordinary things, especially if you are using dlb's for sports. These happen all the time. So why not acknowledge all the extra steps instead of glossing over them.

Hitting the down arrow is so much simpler.

I wasn't trying to gloss over anything, just describing how I use the thing and explaining that what I do works well for me (and others, I think).

Please remember that this is a big site with hundreds of thousands of posts. Not everyone reads and/or remembers every post and people are joining the site constantly. Information will inevitably and necessarily be repeated from time to time. I thought it was pretty clear from reading the thread that some people weren't aware that this DLB workaround is pretty effective and thought it worthwhile to post the information again.

[raott]

I thought it was pretty clear from reading the thread that some people weren't aware that this DLB workaround is pretty effective and thought it worthwhile to post the information again.

I'm in full agreement, which is why I posted, to give those who don't know about the workaround full disclosure rather than telling them its just a couple of extra clicks. In practice, its not and your second post detailing additional steps you take supports that.

[gquiring]

FIOS was recently made available in my area and I was holding off on making the upgrade to the HR20 until I found a great forum on FIOS at DSLReports.com. After following the threads for a couple of months I decided to stick with D* and go with the HR20. The FIOS DVR from what I read is a very disappointing DVR and the lack of HD channels makes me wonder where all that bandwidth is with fiber?

Anyways I am 100% happy retiring my Hr10 Tivo for the HR20-100. I love pressing the record button twice to setup season passes and being able to set it to default to first runs only. On a HR10 that was a clumsy selection and you lost the ability to watch TV while setting up a season pass.

With the ether port active there are some cool options already turned on and more are coming. Streaming music and photos is nice stuff and the other beta features like Demand and remote booking really making the future look good.

Take a good read over on this forum for FIOS info:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/vzfiostv

[cforrest]

I just got FIOS as well, but only the internet & moved phone off the copper! The 20/20 package is awesome. Now I can slingbox like crazy, hell I could stream an HD feed, LOL! To the OP, enjoy your FIOS TV! More HD should be coming next year once they clear up the VHO to CO QAM bandwidth issue.

[Spoonie]

I think I might wait it out and stick with D*, I think. Thanks for all the info!

[jpl]

I got an ad in the mail regarding FiOS, and one really cool feature on there I thought way cool, was that if you record a show on one receiver you can watch it on any other receiver in your home.

There's got to be other reasons why you'd leave D* right when all these new HD channels are released. Like previously mentioned with the new mpeg4 pq looks great on HD channels, and I sware, hopefully it's not just me, but when D* turned the new bird on, their SD channels' pq also improved. Missing out on all these new things over a DLB seems a bit odd. But hey, to each his own. Good luck with FiOS.

I have the media manager DVR with fios. That's the set-up that allows you to view recorded material on another TV. Very nice - it works remarkably well. There are some limitations with it, but overall it suits my needs very nicely. For those interested, here's some of the highlights:

- The DVR is the same as their stand-alone version. They just turn on the media manager feature, if you elect to have it.

- It can feed out recorded programming to other TVs that have STBs on them. It can do up to 3 TVs at once, and up to 6 altogether.

- The media manager function also allows you to feed out digital pictures and music from your PC to the TV with the DVR (but not the others). And streaming video is coming soon.

- Currently this only supports SD feeds. The DVR records HD as well, but can only feed out SD programming for now. In fact, as it's currently configured, the other TVs have to have SD STBs on them. If you have an HD STB, it won't work. Although I have heard of folks getting it to work with the HD STB. The HD feeds are coming.

- The only thing you can do on those other TVs is watch recorded material from the DVR. You can't set up recordings, or delete existing ones, from those STBs.

- There is a latency when accessing recordings from those other TVs. The reason for this is in the architecture of the system. MR feeds go through your computer router. So if you're on one TV that has an SD STB, and you're watching something recorded, then the feed goes: DVR -> Router -> SD STB. All commands have to follow the same path back.

Still, even with all the limitations, it's a really nice feature that we use alot. Just in case any of the prospective fios folks are interested.

[jpl]

Since I've been posting alot on here, I'll give my take. To the OP, feel free to IM me if you want more information. For everyone else, I apologize if I'm getting redundant (I've posted this elsewhere). First, some background. I had DirecTV for 5 years - SD only. I loved their service. I thought the PQ was excellent, and I was very happy with their service - heck, I even liked the R15! I had two of them. In March I got an HDTV, and I wanted an HD DVR. DirecTV wouldn't budge on the price of the HR20, so I decided to look elsewhere. I had been thinking about fios (I already had internet service - which is really really nice, so even if you don't go for their TV service, you should definitely consider their internet service - and TV service had become available less than 6 months before).

The more I looked, the more I liked what I saw. Here's my take on the pros and cons of each (btw, this list is based on my preferences - you'll have to decide which is better for you):

DirecTV over FiOS:

- HD programming. I fully expect that by mid 2008, most tv providers will be on par with DirecTV. And I fully expect fios to be there. But for right now, nobody can touch DirecTV in this department.

- Sports programming. FiOS has alot of great sports channels, and I like the fact that most of them are included in their base tier - things like Fox Soccer Channel, and around here I finally get CSN Philly - both SD and HD. So, if you're more into generic sports channels, I think fios actually has a bit of an edge. But if you want specialty sports packages (NFL ST, e.g.) there's no comparison. It's clear that FiOS isn't going after the heavy-duty sports enthusiast. They don't have any of those special sports packs. Oh, they have a sports add-on, but it's not something that I think is worth spending money on.

- Equipment. Overall, I actually really like the moto DVR that Verizon uses. I've read similar horror stories about the bugs people are hitting with the new IMG s/w update (we haven't gotten it yet). But to be honest, if you look at the list of bugs that the new s/w has, it's nothing compared to the list that first plagued the R15 or even the HR20. Still, the DirecTV boxes have functionality out the wazoo. The moto boxes are capable, and insanely easy to use, but they do lack some of the nice-to-have functionality of DirecTV's equipment (e.g. their HD boxes don't pass through the native resolution of a channel).


FiOS over DirecTV:

- Number of channels. For right now, despite all the new HD, FiOS actually has more channels, when you don't include things like the special sports packs.

- SD PQ. I can't speak to the HD PQ (I understand that the new DirecTV channels are pretty darn close to the FiOS PQ), but the SD PQ is just stunning. The SD PQ was nice with DirecTV, but it's just flat out nicer with fios.

- FiOS doesn't recompress their channels. They pass along just what they get from the channel providers, ensuring the best possible PQ. They've made a commitment to never compress their channels, which is one of the reasons they're hitting a bandwidth crunch right now.

- Local access. I didn't realize how much I missed things like Weatherscan Local, and having CSN.

- No rainfade. Understand that I never had many problems with my dish at all. It was solid - it took a wrath-of-God type storm to make me lose my signal. I've had an inch of snow laying in my dish to no ill-effect. But I have to say, right after we signed up with FiOS we had some really nasty thunderstorms roll in, and it was nice not losing my picture during the worst of it.

- Customer service. Now, again, I've heard horror stories. Every company has them. Verizon is certainly no exception. But I always found DirecTV's customer service to be really good (it slid, a little, but noticeably near the end of my time with them, but still really really good). And as of a couple months ago I would have said that both services were equal in this department. Not anymore. The Verizon installers and techs are the best I've ever seen. Thorough, knowledgeable and curteous as anything. Their CSRs really are excellent. I was a little concerned when I first signed up because I'd been stuck in the black hole of Verizon support in the past. But they are doing fios the right way. That's not to say that everyone's gotten excellent support from them. I've heard my share of horror stories, but every time I've called (I had some issues with pixellation right up front, which was intermittent, thereby requiring a few phone calls), and every time I've had an installer/tech out to my house (two installers - one for internet and one for phone; 3 techs) I've come away just flat out impressed.

- MR DVR (see previous posting). Very nice feature.

- VOD. Yeah, DirecTV is adding DOD, but it's not the same thing. Again, Verizon's VOD is a tad limited right now - they just started doing HD VOD (they only currently have that in one market), and the offerings aren't on par with Comcast, but they are expanding. I never thought I'd care for VOD. I was wrong. It's the one reason I won't go with a Tivo - I really would hate losing this feature. I can even get rid of some of my series because some of them show up on VOD (e.g. Monk and Psyche), and they started carrying the NBC fall line-up of shows on their VOD. That's how I've caught every episode of 'Bionic Woman' so far. Plus I have their movie pack (gives me Showtime, TMC, Starz, Sundance, IFC, Flix), which gives me access to a boatload of VOD offerings from those channels.

Either way, I don't think you can go wrong with either service. I like them both. Again, for me, fios is the better choice, but there's certainly nothing wrong with sticking with directv.

[msmith198025]

I think I might wait it out and stick with D*, I think. Thanks for all the info!

u going to upgrade to an HR-20?

[Spoonie]

u going to upgrade to an HR-20?

Yeah but I got to figure out how to leverage a free one out of them.:) more than likely it'll be the 10-250 that will go.

I'll miss the DLBs, but with all the new HD channels I have no choice.

[Spoonie]

The work around for the lack of DLBs is so simple and effective that it's not really even a workaround.

1. Record the 2 programs you want to watch (super easy with one touch record).
2. Hit the List button.
3. Select the program you want to watch first from the list so you're watching the recording instead of live.
4. When you want to switch, hit List and then Select or hit List, Down Arrow, and then Select (the two programs you're recording will be the top two in the list).

It's literally 2 or 3 button presses where as with DLBs it's 2 (pause, previous channel). After you watch two football games at the same time once, you won't even think about DLBs.

That's cool, an extra button push never killed anyone.:)
The other advantage to the HR20 way is that it's idiot proof. How many times have you hit channel down instead of previous channel and lost one of your buffers?
Tell me about it!. I'm using a logitech 550 remote so it hasn't really happened since I started using it. The standard D* remote has channel buttons that stick out which causes accidental pushes:( . That's another thing I miss about my ultimate TV. Even if you did attempt to change channels while buffered, it would ask you to go live first.

[Spoonie]

I'm going to echo what KurtV said in post #63.

In your scenario (quoted), what I would be doing is recording both programs and watching Dexter all the way through (for that matter, I could record the race and watch Dexter live). Then I will have watched Dexter in a manner where I could coherently follow the story without picking up multiple clips interspersed with the race. Then when Dexter is over, I could start watching the race, FF through commercials and see the race in it's entirety and there wouldn't be anything spoiled.

That's just me, maybe. I'm not a channel surfer and prefer to watch a program from beginning to end without a lot of interuptions. Little different on Sundays with football, but my preference all the same.

I really do hope you get what you want and need from FIOS. If that is the option that satisfies you, then I'm all for someone switching.

Personally, DirecTV is giving me so much now that there's no way in hell I'd give it up primarily for DLB (this coming from someone who has - and utilizes the heck out of - an aresenal of SD and HD DirecTiVos). I'll still use my HR10-250s for OTA and SD. But my HR20s are going to be my workhorses with all the MPEG4 stuff flowing into my house!

Good luck, spoonie!

Thanks, I'm staying put.

[nhey]

The work around for the lack of DLBs is so simple and effective that it's not really even a workaround.

1. Record the 2 programs you want to watch (super easy with one touch record).
2. Hit the List button.
3. Select the program you want to watch first from the list so you're watching the recording instead of live.
4. When you want to switch, hit List and then Select or hit List, Down Arrow, and then Select (the two programs you're recording will be the top two in the list).

It's literally 2 or 3 button presses where as with DLBs it's 2 (pause, previous channel). After you watch two football games at the same time once, you won't even think about DLBs.

The other advantage to the HR20 way is that it's idiot proof. How many times have you hit channel down instead of previous channel and lost one of your buffers? I know it happened to me many times with a DirecTivo box. You can't do that if you just record both programs and watch them from the list.



With a Tivo, if you want to watch 2 programs at the same time with DLB's maintained so that you can rewind either one, all you need is ONE button click. Just tune to both channels on the separate tuners, then all you need to do is hit the Previous button to move to the other tuner. Much quicker, easier, then the record option discussed above.

[MIMOTech]

I opted out of FIOS TV due to the fact that they changed the interface on the DVR and made it so hard to read or use, I just could not stand it before. Also you will not see much difference in pixellation in fast moving objects as compaired with D*. Also you are changing sides when the side with the most HD is just getting going. I have also been with D* for 12 years and was ready to switch also until the SW change at FIOS TV DVR. D* DVR SW much better.

[VARTV]

Too bad D*'s MPEG4 HD-DVR doesn't have DLBs. If it did I would stick with D*. I thought this would be a big deal to me... it hasn't...

[msmith198025]

Yeah but I got to figure out how to leverage a free one out of them.:) more than likely it'll be the 10-250 that will go.

I'll miss the DLBs, but with all the new HD channels I have no choice.

Not sure how much they will bend NOW, but i did get my HR-20 and H-20 for free not too long ago. It can be done. Yes thats the one i would replace too

Id just tell them that you want to upgrade but dont want to have that much money in it. Being polite but firm has worked wonders for me with D*

[msmith198025]

With a Tivo, if you want to watch 2 programs at the same time with DLB's maintained so that you can rewind either one, all you need is ONE button click. Just tune to both channels on the separate tuners, then all you need to do is hit the Previous button to move to the other tuner. Much quicker, easier, then the record option discussed above.

with a HR-20 you may have to push a few extra buttons but you get WAYYYY more hd channels. I can handle a few button pushes

[gregjones]

I had a Tivo unit and loved it. I loved DLB. It was exceptionally easy. It was also exceptionally easy to mess it up. More than once, the 30 minute buffer was insufficient. If you ran over, the behavior was erratic and irritating. In short, the functionality is only as good as its predictability.

The "workaround" is a much better solution because it behaves much more predictably. I would love to have a one button solution to switch to the other active tuner. But it is much more important that it function correctly.

Sports programming (two games) was always the primary use of DLB for me. DirecTV has added a great deal of HD in the last month or two. I will gladly press a few more buttons to watch content. The argument of its simplicity falls flat for me on channels that aren't offered on FIOS.

What we have is a blind love of DLB. I have started referring to it as the cult of the DLB. Don't get me wrong: it's a nice feature. But it's only one feature and the same *result* is still possible.

All in all, I believe the HR20-700 to be the best option out there. There are some shortcomings that I feel need to be addressed that have no workaround. I will be spending my effort on eSATA being additional space (instead of replacement space) because that's actually additional functionality.

[dms1]

See post #40. Another FIOS user says otherwise. We're not sure what type of receiver the other FIOS user had. But everything that I've been reading suggest that the Motorola 6416 (FIOS current HD-DVR) does indeed have dual-buffers. I could be wrong but I doubt it. There's also a post/faq on this web site that says that the FIOS HD-DVR has DLBs.]
The Motorola DCT/QIP 64xx hardware is perfectly capable of supporting dual live buffers, just as the R15 and HR20 are, since it is no different to recording two programs at once. The I-Guide software used by Comcast currently supports DLBs. However, neither Microsoft Foundation TV 1.7 (the original FiOS guide) or Verizon's own new guide does.

[marksman]

Thanks for the reply.

Just because you don’t understand the need for dual buffers doesn't mean that it isn't a great feature.


Sunday I was able to watch Dexter on showtime and Drag Racing on ESPN2. I would pause the drag racing before the commercials began and then flip over to Dexter. About 3 minutes later I would pause Dexter, switch back to the Drag Racing, and fast-forward past the commercials to get to the show. When the commercials came on again I would flip back to Dexter which would be at the same pause point that I left it at. This saves time because the time that would have been spent watching commercials is now being used to watch another program. I can watch two one-hour shows in about an hour and 20 minutes. This cannot be done without DLBs. Without DLB’s the show on the other channel would be live. Switching to the other channel will put you at a part of the show (or show a result) that I may not have been ready for. This means that results gets ruined because I didn’t get to see how it happened. I could rewind but at that point what is the use?


Of course you could have just recorded the drag race on one channel and dexter on the other and flipped back and forth exactly the same way.

This is my disconnect. You can mimic this behavior easily without buffers. You can't record ANYTHING if you are using two buffers anyways, so you might as well record them. The bonus on top of that is if you have to walk away for 35 minutes you have BOTH programs saved so you can watch them at your leisure. Unlike a buffer situation (I know the single buffer is longer but assume 30 minutes for this example), you walk away, and come back and your have lost some of both programs.

You can do exactly what you want, right now. The only difference might be one or two extra key presses when you flip channels, at worst.

I think people complaining about no DLB do a dis-service, because it is very confusing to people, and people who don't know better somehow get the impression you can't watch two live shows at once, which is NOT True.

This is for everyone out there...

You can watch TWO LIVE SHOWS ON AN HR20 at the same time. People who want DLB simply are afraid to hit the Record button two times in the guide.

I understand for someone who wants to flip around channels, but if you are flipping around on TWO different sets of channels at the same time.. I can say that is not anywhere close to normal usage. So let us say you have the NFL Sunday Ticket. You might be flipping between games. I get it. But on the other channel tuner you could still be recording another show that you could watch.

Like I said, the only real loss for the current functionality is the inability to flip between two different sets of tv channels at the same time. If you want to watch two programs on two channels at once, that are live, it is easy to do now.

[marksman]

That sounds good but involves navigating through menus. DLB's are much more streamlined (press pause, switch tuners). Either way it’s nice that it can be done

As I mentioned, it is maybe an extra stroke. Recoreded programs are at the top of the list. You hit List and then select either the first or second program and view it.

Maybe 2 more keystrokes when you go back and forth... With the insurance you will never lose your buffer.

[tiger2005]

Exactly my thoughts. I really can't figure out why people are so enamored with DLB. Just recording the two shows works just as well if not better, as I've also inadvertently pressed the wrong button and ended up with a lost buffer (when I had my HR10-250). Recording the two shows you want to buffer does the same thing as DLB and more, even if it costs a click or two more on the initial setup.

Mike



:lol::lol::sure::sure::eek2::eek2::nono::nono:

[tiger2005]

As I mentioned, it is maybe an extra stroke. Recoreded programs are at the top of the list. You hit List and then select either the first or second program and view it.

Maybe 2 more keystrokes when you go back and forth... With the insurance you will never lose your buffer.

For those that are advocating that the recording of two shows on the HR-20 is better than TiVo's DLB feature, you may want to check out this thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

In no way is recording shows on both tuners a better feature than DLB. The TiVo could also record two shows, with the ability to move between the recordings easily with a minimal amount of effort, but you don't see people advocating that feature over DLB on the TiVo receivers. There's a reason for that. :grin:

[gregjones]

In no way is recording shows on both tuners a better feature than DLB. The TiVo could also record two shows, with the ability to move between the recordings easily with a minimal amount of effort, but you don't see people advocating that feature over DLB on the TiVo receivers. There's a reason for that. :grin:

DLB is a great feature. It's not perfect, though. The long and short of it is this. I would rather mimic the behavior with two recordings than not have the channels to watch.

[tiger2005]

DLB is a great feature. It's not perfect, though. The long and short of it is this. I would rather mimic the behavior with two recordings than not have the channels to watch.

Why should you have to choose between those options? Why can't we have both? :D;)

[dchamero]

The main difference between recording 2 shows and flipping through them and DLB is that with DLB you have the option all the time without planning it in advance, and with the recording method you have to plan in advance (is not spontaneous)

For instance, let's say that you always watch the same 2 channels, and you generally leave the receiver tuned to those 2 channels, you can get home, turn on the TV and immediately have access to both channels (and both buffers) to go back and forth without premeditation

[msmith198025]

The main difference between recording 2 shows and flipping through them and DLB is that with DLB you have the option all the time without planning it in advance, and with the recording method you have to plan in advance (is not spontaneous)

For instance, let's say that you always watch the same 2 channels, and you generally leave the receiver tuned to those 2 channels, you can get home, turn on the TV and immediately have access to both channels (and both buffers) to go back and forth without premeditation

only as far as the buffers go(maybe 30 or so minutes)
If you only watch those two channels and its that simple how hard would it be to set the to start recording at a certain time of day every day?

[jester7677]

I don't get the statement about the DLB... I can record 2 HD shows at the same time so I must be missing something. I think I can even play back a show and record two while I'm at it.

[mchaney]

The main difference between recording 2 shows and flipping through them and DLB is that with DLB you have the option all the time without planning it in advance, and with the recording method you have to plan in advance (is not spontaneous)

For instance, let's say that you always watch the same 2 channels, and you generally leave the receiver tuned to those 2 channels, you can get home, turn on the TV and immediately have access to both channels (and both buffers) to go back and forth without premeditation

That is, if you leave your DVR on all the time.

Mike

[dms1]

I don't get the statement about the DLB... I can record 2 HD shows at the same time so I must be missing something. I think I can even play back a show and record two while I'm at it.
DLB support has nothing to do with recording per-se (though the mechanism is exactly the same as used for recording). Instead, it relates to trying to watch two live programs at the same time. With DLB you could watch one channel, pause it, flip to another channel and, at some later time, go back to the previous channel and continue watching where you left off.

[KurtV]

...
In no way is recording shows on both tuners a better feature than DLB. The TiVo could also record two shows, with the ability to move between the recordings easily with a minimal amount of effort, but you don't see people advocating that feature over DLB on the TiVo receivers. There's a reason for that. :grin:
It is better in one significant way that I and others have described; an errant key stroke won't erase the buffer you were watching.

I truly don't miss DLBs much at all. I guess I'd be happy enough if they added them, but if they don't I'll still be very happy with the HR20s and R-15 I have.

[gregjones]

Why should you have to choose between those options? Why can't we have both? :D;)

I am not saying you should have to give one up. By all means, push DirecTV to implement it. The argument about it being on-the-fly only works if you were already tuned to the second channel. Is it that much to tell the DVR what you're trying to do?

My point is that the difference between DLB and the workaround are miniscule. To leave this much HD over something so trivial seems irrational to me.

[MikeR]

Fios to have more than 150 HD channels by end of 2008 (http://www.tvpredictions.com/verizon110107.htm)

[tiger2005]

It is better in one significant way that I and others have described; an errant key stroke won't erase the buffer you were watching.

Correct, it saves you from accidently erasing the other buffer if you didn't intend to do so, but I could also do that at anytime on the normal HR20 buffer when not recording something so I don't really consider that much of a benefit.

Also, it's significantly worse in another way. If I have minimal space on my HD, I can't use the 'workaround'. That is much more common to me than accidently erasing buffers.

[tiger2005]

Is it that much to tell the DVR what you're trying to do?

When you know there is feature out there that was on the previous DVR's sold by the company, yes. Anything to make my television viewing experience more enjoyable is desired.

[turbo_oasis]

The issue with FIOS...IT IS NOT EVERYWHERE...and probably never will be. I'd love to get their internet service, probably not the TV service as it does not get me ST. I loves my NFL.

[wancell]

I still have FIOS for internet which is blazingly fast but the TV service is better on D*. Fios just got an overhaul to the DVR interface and it still pales in comparison to what I know have with D*. I still think Tivo does it best but FIOS interface is the worst plus it is slow and not very responsive when using. Plus their OnDemand stuff played back horribly that I could not watch it. I do agree though that the SD content seemed better on Fios but the HD on D* is better.
IMHO.

[JerryElbow]

Good luck with FIOS! I've heard some good things about it. If it were offered where I live, I would have considered it strongly when I was trying to get off Time Warner cable (with as many as two or three new HD stations a year!). I've had cable from a few providers plus both DISH and DirecTV over the years and none of them are perfect but DirecTV's current (and growing) collection of HD stations plus the very nice (and expandable) HR-20 makes it the current winner for me. I guess DLB just isn't an issue with me like it seems to be for some folks here. To each his own I guess.