Using a Stacker w/ Wideband Multi-switch

[gvaughn]

I haven't been able to find anything about my specifc scenario, so I'm hoping one of the techies can help me out.

My previous (working) setup involved stacking a dual LNB dish and then splitting the stacked signal to 1-wire per room (house pre-wired with only 1 wire).

I finally upgraded to the HR21 for my main room, cause I just can't wait any longer for the SWM. So, I wall-fished a second cable to that room (since I know you can't stack an HD signal since there are now 5 LNBs.

The installer installed the new 5 LNB dish, running 4 lines to a new zinwell wideband multi-switch. 2 of the outputs went to my room with the HR21 and everything is ok. However, I output 2 more lines to my stacker where the original 2 lines from my old 2 LNB dish fed into (nothing else downstream has changed) and I seem to be having a problem with my old R15. At first, I didn't realize I had a problem - I am getting signal on some even tuners.

I'm guessing that there must be an issue with stacking two lines downstream of a wideband multi-switch. I know that you can't do that for the HR21, but I had thought that the issue was with regards to the other satellites and that the stacking only works for 2 feeds (odd/even - 1 satellite) but not for the 4 or 5 feeds (multiple satellites) that the HR21 needs.

Can someone tell me if this is the problem, or if I should be able to stack 2 lines for my SD DVR (R15)? Also, assuming that this is the issue, how do I change my menu back in the R15 to be a normal signal (no longer stacked)? My stacked feed only gives me some even transponders, and when I unstack it and send a single feed to my R15, it seems that now I only get odd transponders. I can't seem to get the stacker menu to come back up (right arrow+active on the unit itself). It seems as if the receiver is trying to access channel 9999 to get to this menu.

Any/All help would be appreciated.

[carl6]

Because the WB68 is a non-powered multiswitch, I think in your specific (and very unique) situation, you need a Sonora power locker between the multiswitch and the dish to keep the four signal lines locked to the proper voltage/tone combinations. I'm guessing that will resolve your problem.

I just tried the right arrow and active button on my R15, and it appears that it does not bring up that menu any longer. Don't know how to get to that menu.

Carl

[gvaughn]

Because the WB68 is a non-powered multiswitch, I think in your specific (and very unique) situation, you need a Sonora power locker between the multiswitch and the dish to keep the four signal lines locked to the proper voltage/tone combinations. I'm guessing that will resolve your problem.

I just tried the right arrow and active button on my R15, and it appears that it does not bring up that menu any longer. Don't know how to get to that menu.

Carl

Carl,

Where can I get a power locker and how much do they cost (roughly)? Also, can you explain a little more about what a power locker does? Will it cause any problems to my HR21 (that currently seems to be working fine)?

EDIT: Is this (http://www.monstermarketplace.com/Electronics/Landing2548a1009.html) the device that you're recommending?

As far as the stacker menu, that might explain why I was having problems getting to it, but...I hope there is SOME way of accessing it. Anyone else know if the method to accessing the stacker menu has changed?

Greg

[manhole]

Carl,

Where can I get a power locker and how much do they cost (roughly)? Also, can you explain a little more about what a power locker does? Will it cause any problems to my HR21 (that currently seems to be working fine)?

As far as the stacker menu, that might explain why I was having problems getting to it, but...I hope there is SOME way of accessing it. Anyone else know if the method to accessing the stacker menu has changed?

Greg

If I remember correctly, the internal destacker is not enabled by default on the R15. And this can very easily cause the symptoms you are seeing (only even transponders). I assume you have the cable split into two using a splitter behind your R15 already.

To enable the internal destacker you need to press and hold the RIGHT directional arrow, and then press the ACTIVE button. This needs to be done on the front panel of your receiver (not the remote).

-Manhole

[gvaughn]

If I remember correctly, the internal destacker is not enabled by default on the R15. And this can very easily cause the symptoms you are seeing (only even transponders). I assume you have the cable split into two using a splitter behind your R15 already.

To enable the internal destacker you need to press and hold the RIGHT directional arrow, and then press the ACTIVE button. This needs to be done on the front panel of your receiver (not the remote).

-Manhole

Yes...I previously enabled the destacker (1.5 to 2 years ago)...but wanted to know how I disable it if I decide to run two wires. I tried bringing up that menu but can't seem to get it to come up. It seems as if it is trying to access channel 9999 and I get a "Searching for satellite" error.

[carl6]

Carl,

Where can I get a power locker and how much do they cost (roughly)? Also, can you explain a little more about what a power locker does? Will it cause any problems to my HR21 (that currently seems to be working fine)?

EDIT: Is this (http://www.monstermarketplace.com/Electronics/Landing2548a1009.html) the device that you're recommending?

As far as the stacker menu, that might explain why I was having problems getting to it, but...I hope there is SOME way of accessing it. Anyone else know if the method to accessing the stacker menu has changed?

Greg

Yes, that is the device I was referring to.

However, I agree with the other comment to make sure your R15 is in fact set to stacked before spending money on the Sonora.

Carl

[gvaughn]

Yes, that is the device I was referring to.

However, I agree with the other comment to make sure your R15 is in fact set to stacked before spending money on the Sonora.

Carl

Well...I have been successfully using it with 2 tuners from a single (stacked) wire feed for the last 1.5 to 2 years. Can it reset itself automatically to unstacked? I also can't seem to get the stacker menu up, so I'm not sure how to verify this. When I attempt to bypass the stacker and feed the single line to my tuner (as a 1 tuner setup) I only get odd transponders. I'm wondering if that's because it's set to stacked even though I'm no longer feeding it a stacked signal.

[AntAltMike]

About two months ago, I set up three new H20s using their internal destacker. I actually had them going to three Hughes 2x1 switches to select between stacked A and stacked B trunklines.

A week later, the resident called me back and said that all three receivers had error messages on them, referring to a software download in progress. I was only able to complete the software download by connecting them to external destackers. I then pressed "active" and "right arrow" but the LNB selection had been removed from the menu. The service menu was still there. There was a phone option that could be changed, but nothing for an internal destacker.

I gave the customer two 575 MHz destackers and a powered 5x4 multiswitch, taking back the three Hughes 2x1s, and I spent an hour an a half on site. I even told them in advance that there would be no charge for whatever I was going to do to get them back into service, but they bitched at me for the entire hour and a half. They didn't ask for anything, They just kept complaining that they didn't think it should take three trips for me to finish the job, that they should be watching TV, that they don't see why it was this complicated, etc., etc. Then the guy gave me $20 so I could buy dinner. Nice guy. Probably has a trust fund and has never worked a day in his life. The parts and service I was giving him would have come to about $400 at my regular prices, even after figuring in $120 in credit for the switches I took back.

I don't know what DirecTV's ulterior motive was in taking out these internal destackers, but today, I am going to a site where I had set someone up with an R15 using its internal destacker, so if she is home, I'll check out her unit and probably wind up giving her a 575 MHz destacker and multiswitch if she needs it.

Meanwhile, I'd say that gvaughn needs to buy a destacker, a 2x4 or 3x4 multiswitch and a high frequency splitter to restore full functionality to his two-tuner R15

[manhole]

About two months ago, I set up three new H20s using their internal destacker. I actually had them going to three Hughes 2x1 switches to select between stacked A and stacked B trunklines.

A week later, the resident called me back and said that all three receivers had error messages on them, referring to a software download in progress. I was only able to complete the software download by connecting them to external destackers. I then pressed "active" and "right arrow" but the LNB selection had been removed from the menu. The service menu was still there. There was a phone option that could be changed, but nothing for an internal destacker.

I gave the customer two 575 MHz destackers and a powered 5x4 multiswitch, taking back the three Hughes 2x1s, and I spent an hour an a half on site. I even told them in advance that there would be no charge for whatever I was going to do to get them back into service, but they bitched at me for the entire hour and a half. They didn't ask for anything, They just kept complaining that they didn't think it should take three trips for me to finish the job, that they should be watching TV, that they don't see why it was this complicated, etc., etc. Then the guy gave me $20 so I could buy dinner. Nice guy. Probably has a trust fund and has never worked a day in his life. The parts and service I was giving him would have come to about $400 at my regular prices, even after figuring in $120 in credit for the switches I took back.

I don't know what DirecTV's ulterior motive was in taking out these internal destackers, but today, I am going to a site where I had set someone up with an R15 using its internal destacker, so if she is home, I'll check out her unit and probably wind up giving her a 575 MHz destacker and multiswitch if she needs it.

Meanwhile, I'd say that gvaughn needs to buy a destacker, a 2x4 or 3x4 multiswitch and a high frequency splitter to restore full functionality to his two-tuner R15

I can confirm that the R15 works fine with the internal destacker. Because it only receives programming from the 101 satellite I do not see DirecTV every disabling it. I have the latest software release and it still works like a champ :)

[AntAltMike]

I can confirm that the R15 works fine with the internal destacker. Because it only receives programming from the 101 satellite I do not see DirecTV every disabling it. I have the latest software release and it still works like a champ :)

You can only confirm that your R15s internal destacker works fine.

I don't understand what you mean by your comment that, "It only receives programming from the 101 satellite.", but I now recall that when I once set an R15 up in multisat mode, I think that configuration removed the internal destacker option. The customer I was setting it up for needed Setanta Sports and I was concerned that if either Setanta Sports or its overflow channel used 119, we'd be up a creek, but it turned out that both were on Sat A and when I put the receiver in single LNB/ or round dish mode, the internal destacking option returned.

You can only confirm that your R15s internal destacker works fine. I don't understand what you mean by your comment that, "It only receives programming from the 101 satellite.", but I now recall that when I once set an R15 up in multisat mode, I think that the LNB configuration option of internal destacker was no longer available. The customer I was setting it up for needed Setanta Sports and I was concerned that if either Setanta Sports or its overflow channel used 119, we'd be up a creek, but it turned out that both were on Sat A and when I put the receiver in single LNB/ or round dish mode, the internal destacking option returned.


It just occurred to me that with a two tuner receiver, there would be a problem using the internal destacker because the two tuners might be calling for different satellites. I recommend that the original poster go into his set-up menu and set his receiver on "round dish" or "single LNB" and see if the "stacked" option is then restored to his menu.

Also, I now recall that after the H20s had their software updated, there was a menu option of 6x8 versus 4x4 multiswitch, and the default setting had become 6x8. I had to change it to 4x4 to get the evens using my external destacker, even when I had the receiver connected to just Satellite A (101), so those are two things in the guided setup that gvaughn should check and change if necessary.

FWIW, when DirecTV eliminated the internal destacker in those three H20 receivers, it did not get eliminated in another H20 that another customer of mine is using in the same building. And FWIW, when DirecTV took the "inverted" LNB selection out of its D10 receivers two or three years ago, a dealer I know who was living on the "bleeding edge" had to furnish over 30 external destackers to keep those receivers compatible with the MFH1 system he had recently installed there.

[gvaughn]

It just occurred to me that with a two tuner receiver, there would be a problem using the internal destacker because the two tuners might be calling for different satellites. I recommend that the original poster go into his set-up menu and set his receiver on "round dish" or "single LNB" and see if the "stacked" option is then restored to his menu.

I tried to do this, but everytime I go back to redo the satellite setup, it looks like it's set back to the 3 LNB option. Additionally, One of the problems I've been having is that, depending on how I do the wiring, I am unable to complete the setup. If I remove the stacker from my line and try to feed a single line from the wideband multi-switch, I only see odd transponders and I can't get past step 9 (getting guide data - a CSR told me the guide data is only on even transponders). When I run two lines out of the wideband multi-switch and into my stacker split the stacked signal and send the lines to my tuners...I only seem to be getting even transponders. I would assume that when I remove the stacker from my setup and feed a single line from my multi-switch to my 1st tuner (also removing the splitter) I should get all of the transponders...just only get use out of 1 of the 2 tuners. But I'm only seeing odd transponders. I figured that my being in "stacked" mode might be causing this problem. Could it be something else? For what it's worth...I DO have an external destacker...but I don't know how helpful that might be. I tried removing the stacker from my line and I'm still having a problem (because I think the R15 is still in "stacked" mode). IF it is still in stacked mode and I feed it an unstacked signal, won't that cause problems too...problems that I'll be unable to rectify (without a new receiver) if I can't access the stacker menu to turn OFF stacking?!! I'm pretty sure that's the dilemna I'm facing, unless the original response about trying a power locker does the trick and allows me to keep stacking my signal.


Also, I now recall that after the H20s had their software updated, there was a menu option of 6x8 versus 4x4 multiswitch, and the default setting had become 6x8. I had to change it to 4x4 to get the evens using my external destacker, even when I had the receiver connected to just Satellite A (101), so those are two things in the guided setup that gvaughn should check and change if necessary.

How would I get to this menu in the R15 (if it's even in the R15)? Also, since I'm using a wide-band multi-switch it is a 6x8 right? Assuming I could get to the above mentioned menu, would I tell the receiver it's a 4x4 anyways?

[AntAltMike]

As far as I can tell, the H20 even used DiSEqC commands to make the simple evens/odds selections that it could otherwise make with brute force tone commands, so in order to call the evens with those receivers, their set-up menu had to be in 4x4 mode, regardless of whether the stacker was sourced by a 5x8 switch or not.

I had to do a lot of serious hacking around to nurse the H20s through the set-up.

[AntAltMike]

You might further simplify your hacking by setting the R15 into signgle input mode while you endeavor to straighten it out.

[manhole]

The H20 is a single tuner receiver. Why would it have an internal destacker?

[AntAltMike]

The H20 is a single tuner receiver. Why would it have an internal destacker?
So it can be used in a system that has stacked Ku signals, as many multiple ddwelling units do.

[gvaughn]

I went home and messed around some more with my wiring and the R15.

As far as I can tell, the stacker menu is no longer (at least it no longer works with the Right+active command). I only get the active menu when doing this and while there are some setup guides and other info there (along with Weather, Lottery, etc...) there doesn't appear to be any way to change the stacking function.

Furthermore, I don't see any 4x4 (or 6x8) option in any setup menu. Aside from knowing some sort of secret remote entry code, neither of these functions are possible on my receiver and I assume it is locked as a stacker.

Stacking the signal gives me some even transponders, and unstacking the signal gives me odd transponders, but I cannot get both.

Additionally, I tried to stack my signal and then use an external destacker (just in case my R15 signal wasn't in stacked mode). I still only saw even transponders.

I'm fairly sure that my system is still set to stack mode and this makes it unable to handle a non-stacked signal, while the stacked signal has other problems because of the wide-band multi-switch. I will probably get the Sonora power locker as suggested and see if this rectifies my problem.

[AntAltMike]

Are you using the power inserter that came with the stacker? If so, can you confirm that it is sourcing18 volts DC, even with a load?

[gvaughn]

Are you using the power inserter that came with the stacker? If so, can you confirm that it is sourcing18 volts DC, even with a load?

I am using the power inserter. I'm not sure what your second part of your question is asking an/or how to do it.

[AntAltMike]

When the filter capacitor goes bad in a wall-wart type power inserter, the "no-load" voltage on its output will still usually exceed the nominal, loaded voltage of the supply, so to test one more throughly without an oscilloscope, you need to either put a resistor across its output to draw a couple hundred milliamps, or you could even put a power passing splitter in the output line and use the LNB as the load, provided the splitter passes power on all ports and is not a "diode steered" model.

[hombresoto]

I recently had a heck of a time accessing the hidden menu on an r15 during a stacked signal installation. The only way I could get it to come up was while I was in the 'system info and test' screen, and that was after 2 or 3 attempts.
Worth a try, wouldn't come up any other way.



I went home and messed around some more with my wiring and the R15.

As far as I can tell, the stacker menu is no longer (at least it no longer works with the Right+active command). I only get the active menu when doing this and while there are some setup guides and other info there (along with Weather, Lottery, etc...) there doesn't appear to be any way to change the stacking function.

Furthermore, I don't see any 4x4 (or 6x8) option in any setup menu. Aside from knowing some sort of secret remote entry code, neither of these functions are possible on my receiver and I assume it is locked as a stacker.

Stacking the signal gives me some even transponders, and unstacking the signal gives me odd transponders, but I cannot get both.

Additionally, I tried to stack my signal and then use an external destacker (just in case my R15 signal wasn't in stacked mode). I still only saw even transponders.

I'm fairly sure that my system is still set to stack mode and this makes it unable to handle a non-stacked signal, while the stacked signal has other problems because of the wide-band multi-switch. I will probably get the Sonora power locker as suggested and see if this rectifies my problem.

[gvaughn]

Just to update...

I have finally gotten my system back up and working properly. I got the polarity locker that was suggested at the top of this thread by another user. The I fed my Sat LNBs into the polarity locker. From the polarity locker, I followed the setup recommended by Sonora for using two multiswitches: I split the Sat A and Sat B outputs from the polarity locker and fed one line from each splitter into the appropriate Sat input on my multi-switch and the second line from each splitter into my stacker (as if it were a second multi-switch). Now my HD-DVR is being fed off of the multi-switch and appears to be working fine and my non-HD-DVR (R15) is getting fed from the stacker and both odd and even transponders are working just fine also.

Hopefully if someone else has a setup similar to mine this will be helpful info for them.

[TigersFanJJ]

Sorry if I came into this discussion a little late, but couldn't this have worked by just removing the wb68? Two lines from the dish going to the hddvr, then the other 2 being used for the stacker to the R15?

[carl6]

TigersFanJJ,

The original poster did try that, and it did not work.

I believe the problem is that Ka-high signals from the 99 LNB are fed on the same output as Ku signals from 101, and use the same frequency range as the stacked Ku even transponders. Same for Ka-high signals from 103 being fed on the same output as Ku signals from 110/119, and use the same frequency range as the stacked Ku even transponders.

Carl

[gvaughn]

Sorry if I came into this discussion a little late, but couldn't this have worked by just removing the wb68? Two lines from the dish going to the hddvr, then the other 2 being used for the stacker to the R15?

Doesn't the HR21 (HD-DVR) require a wideband multi-switch to access all of the HD content on (I believe) 5 different satellites? I was under this impression, but could be wrong. I never tried circumventing the multi-switch, though I did try to circumvent the stacker and feed a single line from the multi-switch directly to my R15. The problem with this, was that my R15 is in "Stacked" mode and I don't know how to undo that now (the menu seems to have gone away). Being in stacked mode...it wouldn't receive an unstacked signal properly.

[carl6]

To unstack, push the right arrow and active buttons on the front of the DVR AT THE SAME TIME (don't push one and hold, then push the other). That should give you the special setup menu where you can change LNB stacking.

Carl

[AntAltMike]

...my R15 is in "Stacked" mode and I don't know how to undo that now (the menu seems to have gone away). Being in stacked mode...it wouldn't receive an unstacked signal properly.

There are mixed reports on the continued viability of the R15 internal destacker. Last week, a customer for whom I had enabled an R15 internal destacker called me up to report that he had choppy video on his recordings. I advised him to call DirecTV.

He called DirecTV and they had him do a master reset, but when he did, the R15 LNB setting reverted to unstacked, so it couldn't even complete its software installation and guide update. The CSR of course knew nothing of the internal destacker, leaving this customer with an inoperable unit.

He called me back and I advised him to hold in the "right move" and "active" front panel buttons at the same time, which brought up the service screen that included the LNB format selection and that empowered him to enable the internal destacker, putting him back in business.

Unfortunately, there are various reports of R15 that longer have an LNB format selection in service screens, or that can no longer access a service screen through the method that worked previously. I'd advise anyone with an R15 that is destacking properly to NOT reset it and to refrain from experimenting with its internal destacker, lest they inadvertently lose that capability.

[gvaughn]

To unstack, push the right arrow and active buttons on the front of the DVR AT THE SAME TIME (don't push one and hold, then push the other). That should give you the special setup menu where you can change LNB stacking.

Carl


THAT DID IT...they had to be done at the same time. One before the other won't bring up the menu. So finicky!!!

As for me...I'm going to leave it as stacked for now...but since I now have my own destacker (extra with my previous DSR704 replaced by the HR21), I can choose to later use my own destacker if the R15 gives me problems. Thanks Carl!!

[TigersFanJJ]

Doesn't the HR21 (HD-DVR) require a wideband multi-switch to access all of the HD content on (I believe) 5 different satellites? I was under this impression, but could be wrong. I never tried circumventing the multi-switch, though I did try to circumvent the stacker and feed a single line from the multi-switch directly to my R15. The problem with this, was that my R15 is in "Stacked" mode and I don't know how to undo that now (the menu seems to have gone away). Being in stacked mode...it wouldn't receive an unstacked signal properly.

The LNB on the dish has a built-in multiswitch that combines all the satellites and gives you four outputs. The only time that you need to add the external wideband multiswitch is when you need more than those four outputs that the dish provides (unless you have to use the flex ports, but that's a different discussion).

[gvaughn]

The LNB on the dish has a built-in multiswitch that combines all the satellites and gives you four outputs. The only time that you need to add the external wideband multiswitch is when you need more than those four outputs that the dish provides (unless you have to use the flex ports, but that's a different discussion).

I see. thanks for the info. Hmmm...would the multi-switch in the LNBs work the same as the WB68? If so...I probably still needed the polarity locker for the reasons mentioned by Carl, but I can't be sure.

[carl6]

The multiswitch in the LNB combines all of the individual LNB's (one for each polarity on each satellite, nine total in a "5 LNB" dish), and packages them into four groups of signals. These four groupings are available independently on each of the four outputs.

Once you go outside the internal multiswitch to any external multiswitch, you must have all four of these signal groups available at all times. That is why an external multiswtich must have four coax lines going to the dish.

The channel groups are requested by the receiver. When you tell the receiver to go to a particular channel, the receiver sends a signal to the dish asking for the group of channels the requested channel is part of. These are the four groups:
13VDC, no tone - 99 odd, 101 odd
18VDC, no tone - 99 even, 101 even
13VDC, 22KHz tone - 103 odd, 119 odd
18VDC, 22KHz tone - 103 even, 110 even, 119 even

Some time back, there was but one satellite with odd and even poliarizaiton on the transponders, so there were only two combinations or groups of signals. A stacker took the even polarization signals and upconverted them to a higher frequency, then mixed them onto the coax cable. A de-stacker reversed this process. That allowed both odd and even polarizations to be sent over a single coax.

When the satellite constellation grew to three rather than one, the 22KHz tone was added to the signalling, and all of a sudden there were four groups of signals rather than two. The original stacking scheme still worked for the channels that were provided on the 101 satellite, but customers with stacked systems could not get the additional channels from 110 and 119. For most that wasn't an issue, as those included a few HD channels and mostly Spanish language programming.

Some stacking solutions were developed that did support the 3-LNB dish. None have been developed that support the 5-LNB dish.

When the latest Ka series satellites were put into service, they were designed to be compatible with the 4-group signalling method by using the same frequencies that were previously used by stacking systems, and by OTA signals. This instantly resulted in anyone who was diplexing OTA, or using a stacker, having problems when they tried to combine either diplexed OTA, or stacking, with one of the new 5-LNB dish systems.

To further complicate the issue, the Ka low signals (the ones that come down the coax in the OTA frequency range) are re-shifted back up to Ka high by the b-band converters on the back of the new HD receivers. There is a special signalling method used to tell the b-band converter when it needs to shift, and when it doesn't. That method can interfere with some of the 3-LNB stacking solutions.

DirecTV's solution to all of this was to develop the Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM), which uses an entirely different technology to provide a single wire solution between the SWM device and the receiver(s). Unfortunately, the SWM is taking longer to become available than many people would like. Further, that is the only solution (that provides the new HD signals) available to MDU (multiple dwelling units) installations that previously used stacking, and I suspect (but don't know) that priority is being given to those areas for SWM distribution.

So going all the way back to the original question regarding having problems with stacking when using a 5-LNB dish or a WB68 multiswitch, that is to be expected due to the fact that both technologies want to use the same range of frequencies to send the signals. You've got to find an effective way to filter those out from the opposing source.

Carl

[gvaughn]

The multiswitch in the LNB combines all of the individual LNB's (one for each polarity on each satellite, nine total in a "5 LNB" dish), and packages them into four groups of signals. These four groupings are available independently on each of the four outputs.

Once you go outside the internal multiswitch to any external multiswitch, you must have all four of these signal groups available at all times. That is why an external multiswtich must have four coax lines going to the dish.

The channel groups are requested by the receiver. When you tell the receiver to go to a particular channel, the receiver sends a signal to the dish asking for the group of channels the requested channel is part of. These are the four groups:
13VDC, no tone - 99 odd, 101 odd
18VDC, no tone - 99 even, 101 even
13VDC, 22KHz tone - 103 odd, 119 odd
18VDC, 22KHz tone - 103 even, 110 even, 119 even

Some time back, there was but one satellite with odd and even poliarizaiton on the transponders, so there were only two combinations or groups of signals. A stacker took the even polarization signals and upconverted them to a higher frequency, then mixed them onto the coax cable. A de-stacker reversed this process. That allowed both odd and even polarizations to be sent over a single coax.

When the satellite constellation grew to three rather than one, the 22KHz tone was added to the signalling, and all of a sudden there were four groups of signals rather than two. The original stacking scheme still worked for the channels that were provided on the 101 satellite, but customers with stacked systems could not get the additional channels from 110 and 119. For most that wasn't an issue, as those included a few HD channels and mostly Spanish language programming.

Some stacking solutions were developed that did support the 3-LNB dish. None have been developed that support the 5-LNB dish.

When the latest Ka series satellites were put into service, they were designed to be compatible with the 4-group signalling method by using the same frequencies that were previously used by stacking systems, and by OTA signals. This instantly resulted in anyone who was diplexing OTA, or using a stacker, having problems when they tried to combine either diplexed OTA, or stacking, with one of the new 5-LNB dish systems.

To further complicate the issue, the Ka low signals (the ones that come down the coax in the OTA frequency range) are re-shifted back up to Ka high by the b-band converters on the back of the new HD receivers. There is a special signalling method used to tell the b-band converter when it needs to shift, and when it doesn't. That method can interfere with some of the 3-LNB stacking solutions.

DirecTV's solution to all of this was to develop the Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM), which uses an entirely different technology to provide a single wire solution between the SWM device and the receiver(s). Unfortunately, the SWM is taking longer to become available than many people would like. Further, that is the only solution (that provides the new HD signals) available to MDU (multiple dwelling units) installations that previously used stacking, and I suspect (but don't know) that priority is being given to those areas for SWM distribution.

So going all the way back to the original question regarding having problems with stacking when using a 5-LNB dish or a WB68 multiswitch, that is to be expected due to the fact that both technologies want to use the same range of frequencies to send the signals. You've got to find an effective way to filter those out from the opposing source.

Carl


Thanks Carl. Very informative post!

[dodge boy]

The LNB on the dish has a built-in multiswitch that combines all the satellites and gives you four outputs. The only time that you need to add the external wideband multiswitch is when you need more than those four outputs that the dish provides (unless you have to use the flex ports, but that's a different discussion).

My multi switch combines 2 feeds from my 3 lnb dish and 2 feeds from my 72.5 local dish. I noticed it has 2 un used "Flex Ports", what are those for?, and is there anyway to hook up the other two ports from the 3 lnb dish to the multi switch so when they move my locals off of the 72.5 bird I will be able to see them?

[carl6]

My multi switch combines 2 feeds from my 3 lnb dish and 2 feeds from my 72.5 local dish. I noticed it has 2 un used "Flex Ports", what are those for?, and is there anyway to hook up the other two ports from the 3 lnb dish to the multi switch so when they move my locals off of the 72.5 bird I will be able to see them?

The way you are configured is technically wrong, but "if it ain't broke don't fix it". In other words, if you are now getting what you are supposed to be getting you might be better off than re-wiring it to the correct configuration.

With a 6x8 multiswitch (one with two flex ports), a 3-LNB dish, and a round dish for 72.5, what you SHOULD have is...

Four coax from the 3-LNB dish to the four regular inputs of the multiswitch, and one coax from the 72.5 to Flexport 1. That way you are able to receive all three regular orbital slots (101, 110 and 119) from the 3-LNB dish, and your locals off 72.5 (which are all on even transponders, so you only need one coax from that dish).

For now, I would say wait and when your locals move then simply unhook the 72.5 and hook the other two lines up from the 3-LNB dish. Re-do satellite setup and you will be okay.

Carl

[dodge boy]

That's the way the installer hooked it up, and that's why when i do an "Auto detect info" it says I have a "round dish" and the 72.5. Since I don't get HD or Spanish programming I'm not missing anything, programming wise.