Dish Really needs to buy R/L DBS

[Mike123abc]

Dish full of cash from it recent failed merger with DirectTV really should consider buying R/L DBS's satellite and 61.5 frequencies. The satellite http://wvjw.info/dbs-beam/rldbs1.gif with 22 spots would let them put LIL to almost all eastern markets. The spots are moveable so they could take the far west spots and move them to cover the gaps in the eastern part of the US.

Dish already has a ton of spots covering the West Coast, with this satellite they could probably pick up 80 more markets, doubling the number carried.

Of course they could go wild and carry 22+ arkets worth of HDTV for ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC, but I doubt this would happen until HDTV becomes the reason people pick cable.

[Jacob S]

Will the FCC allow this on a seperate dish not at the main slot?

[Mike123abc]

They allow dish to do locals from 61.5 and 148 now. In fact they would prefer if they did main or wing not the split that they do now.

[mec6762]

Who owns the satellite? Also, from what the above link implies, the transponders aren't available. Is there a reason for that?

[Jacob S]

Ok, I was not sure if it was just the split of slots they do not allow or not having all dma's on one slot.

[bryan27]

mec6762,

The satellite is CableVision's Rainbow-1 to launch in March. The transponders aren't available because R/L DBS hasn't released them. The satellite has 32 TPs that can operate on their TPs 1-21 odd and the unassigned TP 23 & 24. This satellite is very dynamic, TPs can be moved from Half-Conus to spots, Spots can be moved to Half-Conus, the spots are movable, and each spot can hold 1-5 TPs. So as you can see TPs used for spots and those used for Half-Conus can change.

The new DBS service is scheduled to start taking new subs in June. I have a file somewhere with a brochure. When I find it I'll upload it to my site.

[mec6762]

Bryan27,

Thanks for the information.

[Jacob S]

I would like to have some information since I am a satellite retailer. Some customers may want an alternative that has had some troubles. The signal for the 61.5 could be easier to get as well with the high angle here that we have. What information is there for this new service? Any pricing on hardware, programming, if they are going to have local retailers for them just as Dish and Direct does? What kind of receiver technology is going to be used?

[bryan27]

Jacob,

Found it! The service is called HD-Sat and Select Sat. The brochure, in PDF, is over 4MB, and I'm having trouble uploading it. I'll convert it to imagages sometime tonight. I'm really looking foward to it.

CableVision said they would announce package pricing sometime this month. They will be using the 8VSB technology. All I know about hardware is that you can use your 18" dish or their 13" dish. There are 3 different receivers, a standard one, an HDTV one, and an HDTV one with PVR. I don't have prices on the receivers, but there is an option to make payments over a 12 month periord to pay for it.

[Chris Freeland]

bryan27, since the spots are adjustable, would it be possible to launch this satellite to 110 instead of 61.5 if E* purchased the satellite and up-link center?

[bryan27]

Chris, some of the spots might work, but it depends on the satellite design. When a spot is movable it can be moved, but it can't be moved just anywhere. Let's say a spot is movable by 25 degrees, anything more and the antenna starts pointing at parts of the satellite in our hypothetical satellite design. Now we designed our satellite to work at 61.5 and the spots are movable by 25 degrees. We move the satellite 50 degrees west to get to 110, we also move all the spots 25 degrees east(our hypothetical maximum spot movement) to compensate for the 50 degree west movement of the satellite. Some spots are going to fall in the Pacific Ocean because they can't be moved any farther east.

It all will depend on how far the spots can move.

[bryan27]

I've uploaded the brochure for HD-Sat & Select-Sat. They are 8 image files.

http://wvjw.info/daily-news/

[Adam Richey]

Bryan27, does that brochure ONLY have channels that they have contracts in place for? They have nearly EVERYTHING listed on there. It also still lists All News Channel. I just wanna know if that selection will be available when I sign up.

[Chris Freeland]

Thanks bryan27, I guess E* would most likely be better of building their own additional spotbeam satellite and additional up-link center. Thanks also for the brochure link, if Select-Sat truly is able to offer these channels in a 'a la carte' or mini-pak format, I guess it may be possible for me to get AT150 from E* on 110/119, SA on 61.5 and then add a Select-Sat IRD and satellite splitter and get my locals and an extra channel or two from Select-Sat at 61.5. hmmmmm

[zimm0who0net]

What transponders are they planning on using for this service? It looks to me like E* already has licenses for at least 23 of 32 transponders at 61.5. That doesn't give a whole lot of room for anyone else to operate at 61.5

[Dennis]

As Bryan stated above R/L has the licenses for all odd numbered transponders from 1-21. That should be 11 slots. I think they also are trying to get the 2 unassigned transponders . DISH and/or Sky Angel own the remaining 19 transponder licenses.

R/L is claiming 256 channels but perhaps that counts RSNs and regional channels which could be put on spots.

[Bob Haller]

No way that small a offering can be competive. A smoke and mirrors service...

[bryan27]

I'm not sure if R/L will take the "provider" route or the "common carrier" route, but it appears that they will have some kind of agreement with E* where R/L can resell the foreign channels and E* can resell the HD channels and locals carried on R/L not currently offered by E*

zimm0who0net, true 13 TPs isn't that much space, but they are using all the new technologies so they can compress 16-20 channels of standard digital or upto 6 channels of HDTV on a TP.

So with that in mind 5 1/2 TPs could hold 110 channels which is about the number of national channels that are listed. 3 1/2 TPs could carry the 20 HD/Widescreen channels and 4 TPs for spots. Voila, 13 TPs. Enough to carry everything except the foreign channels.

DBSOgre, the channel list is a couple months old, All News doesn't exist anymore :(

Dennis, yes that 256 counts the RSN's which the last I heard was going to be on spots. And they have asked the FCC to grant them the two unused frequencies.

Bob, I don't think R/L is out to be a huge competitor. Their plan looks to be a lot like Bell E-Vu where you have lots of small niche packages and choose the ones you want. Not everyone wants to get a 200+ channel packages.

[Chris Freeland]

Will the program providers allow R/L to sell their channels on an 'a la carte' or mini-package basis? Bryan27, if E* is allowed to re-sell some R/L locals, will us currant E* subs need to upgrade to a new duel format IRD to receive them?

[zimm0who0net]

Originally posted by Dennis
As Bryan stated above R/L has the licenses for all odd numbered transponders from 1-21. That should be 11 slots. I think they also are trying to get the 2 unassigned transponders . DISH and/or Sky Angel own the remaining 19 transponder licenses.

According to www.lyngsat.com (http://www.lyngsat.com) Echostar 3 is currently broadcasting on transponders 5, 7, 13 and 15 (along with a bunch of others).  How can they do this if they don't have the licenses for those transponders?

[Mike123abc]

Dish Network is using a few of the R/L DBS frequencies under temporary authority deal with the FCC (to let them do must carry before E7/E8 were put up). When R/L DBS launches Dish will have to abandon those frequencies. When that happens:

R/L DBS 11 + maybe the 2 unassigned = 13
Dish 11 + 6 of the 8 Sky Angel = 17
Sky Angel 8, of which 6 leased to Dish for providing the satellite = 2

Now if they make a deal to share transponders with Dish where they get the right to resell the foreign channels in exchange for Dish being able to sell the HD channels it would be a good deal.

Now the question is can R/L DBS survive entering a market with 2 well established competitors with 13 slots vs Dishes 90/DirectTV 45 slots?

R/L dbs will be using 8PSK which will give them up to 50% more bandwith per transponder (note UP TO but with more error correction probably 40% more). Plus they will use MPEG-4 which may give them another 30% better compression. All in all they hope to get 2x the channels/transponder (i.e. 20-24).

For data rates:

Dish gets 5/6 FEC for 33.333 MBit/sec on most transponders
Direct gets 7/8 FEC for 35.000 Mbit/sec on most transponders
R/L DBS should get 3/4 FEC for 45 Mbit/sec on most transponders

(note dish only gets 2/3 FEC for 40Mbit/sec on 8PSK but using low power satellite).

[RJS1111111]

8VSB (8 MHz, vestigial sideband) is for terrestrial digital
broadcast, right? You're talking 8PSK, the eight-symbol
phase-shift keyed satellite standard, right?

[Mike123abc]

You are right, fixed the typos... 8PSK is the correct standard.

R/L DBS should be 8PSK, Dish/DirectTV QPSK (except the one Dish HDTV at 8PSK).

[Jacob S]

They are using the latest technology available. Man oh man, this is going to be a great service when they get this launched. I have had mulitple customers complain about having to pay for all the channels, they want to purchase them seperately. This is going to be a MAJOR advantage over Dish and DirecTv and can see people switching over to this service because of that. People's programming bills will be going down and Dish and DirecTv will have to find a way to compete against this or lose new subs and well as current subs.

Another advantage, 13 inch dish, people will love this inovation, easier to mount, less hassle, and other advantages.

Also they will have more HD than anyone. I thought Dish was going to be the leader in HD, guess not now. I wonder what their pricing is going to be on these channels.

Another advantage is the payment plans and the equipment and install included with programming price. I have been waiting for this for a good while, and this would remind me of Primestar, only much better. Maybe this was a service that Primestar was going to set up when they were going to go to a smaller dish, they were owned by the cable compaines.

Also the look angles on the east coast where I am at is going to be exceptional. I dont know about the west coast though, but the mention of spot beams should resolve that issue, not exactly understand how they are going to go about this.

I wonder if they are going to offer any promotions for customers. They probably will not have to because them offering the packages and channels as they do and offerring a system without having to pay anything up front will make it to where the customer gets a better deal right up front.

When is the service at 105.5 supposed to launch?

[MarkA]

Does anybody know what R/L DBS will be? They have enough space to provide a great basic service at a competitive price to DISH and certainly Pegasus. Might be a nice option!

[Mike123abc]

Don't get too excited about R/L DBS, they will have big trouble competing. Here is the filing to the FCC when they wanted to have Echostar's frequencies reallocated to them in case of a merger:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6513292881

See pages 9 & 10.

They claim with only 13 frequencies they will have 16 HDTV, 2 regional HDTV, no locals.

Dish already has the capacity to carry every HDTV channel that R/L DBS is ready to carry. Of course also the channels will have to exist to be carried.

[Jacob S]

How will they have big time trouble competing when they are going to offer customers channels they can purchase individually or in smaller packages talored to the customer's tastes and without having to purchase equipment or installation?

[Mike123abc]

As shown in the brochure:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6513291851

Only about half the channels will be available for individual purchase. And they do not mention how much it will cost for individual channels versus packages. Dish has many channels available for individual purchase (see the international lineup), they are not cheap. Maybe they will have something like any 10 for $XX or something, it is hard to see what they will do. If they plan to take the time to set up a custom plan for every customer and handle the billing on it, it will be interesting to see if they can keep the price down.

My point about trouble is that they will not offer LIL which has been shown to be a huge boost to Dish/Direct. That is why Dish/Direct keep adding cities as fast as they can. Using advanced technologies they will manage to half the equivalent transponders that DirectTV has, and 1/4 the number that Dish has, Dish/Direct can outprogram them if they want.

[Chris Freeland]

I can see where R/L DBS might, might be able to survive as a niche player. Maby a AT50 type package with some locals and local rsn's, and some HD services, I have my doubts of a big package or a lot of "a la carte" availability, E* tried this with their DishPix package of 10 channels for $10 when they first started it, it eventually went to 10 channels for $15 before E* dropped the package completely. Part of the problem is that many of the program providers do not want their channels available on a 'a la carte" basis, I have to agree with Mike123abc on this one. Ultimately I think R/L DBS will be bought out by either E* or D*.

[ehostler]

Don't forget... Right now E* is leasing transponder frequencies from them. When they launch their bird, they will be revoking the lease.

[Dennis]

I believe that DISH is leasing from Sky Angel not Cablevison R/L.

[Dennis]

Originally posted by zimm0who0net


According to www.lyngsat.com (http://www.lyngsat.com) Echostar 3 is currently broadcasting on transponders 5, 7, 13 and 15 (along with a bunch of others).  How can they do this if they don't have the licenses for those transponders?


I am not sure zimm but either lyngat is wrong or the chart at dbsforums is.

[Jacob S]

There will be a market for pick and choose programming, and a market for locals. Jus like there is a market for Ford and a market for Chevrolet. People have different tastes.

[Mike123abc]

Dish leases 6 transponders from Sky Angel, they payment is that they broadcast the Sky Angel programming. They essentially lease the 6 transponders by providing Echostar3 to broadcast the 2 SA transponders.

Dish got special permission from the FCC to use the R/L DBS frequencies until R/L DBS launches a satellite. It was mainly under the excuse that they needed the transponders to comply with must carry until E7 and E8 were up. I do not know why they continue to use some of them... probably just have not gotten around to moving them. They have 2 of their own transponders not being used, but are using 5 of the R/L DBS ones. Note that for some reason lyngsat has never gotten around to putting the HDTV Discovery channel on transponder 4.

If they had to abandon the 5 frequencies today they could move showtime HD to transponder 2 (fill up transponder 2 since only 3 regular channels are on it) Drop the demo channel and drop the TP15 content. This would allow them to have 3 transponders free up to carry the other stuff they carry on R/L DBS frequencies.

[Dennis]

Thank you Mike. I admit my error. That makes more sense.

[Chris Freeland]

Originally posted by Jacob S
There will be a market for pick and choose programming, and a market for locals. Jus like there is a market for Ford and a market for Chevrolet. People have different tastes.

I have no doubt that their is a market for pick and choose programing, the problem is that many of the programmers of basic cable networks will require R/L DBS to have their channel in a basic package just like they require E* and D* now. Another problem with pick and choose programing is that it might not be profitable to do it this way even though their is demand. Just because their is demand for something does not automatically mean a profit can be made.

[Jacob S]

I think a way of making it profitable would be to do something similar to what Dish did, choose 10 channels for a price, something similar to this, then there would be a profit made.

[bryan27]

Part of the problem is that many of the program providers do not want their channels available on a 'a la carte" basis, I have to agree with Mike123abc on this one.

But when you look at the "a la carte" channels most of them are ones that either Rainbow owns, ones that own part of Rainbow or part of Cablevision, are independantly owned channels, or ones that Cablevision gets good contracts with.

So they might get away with it.

[Bob Haller]

If a provider of programming sells ala carte to one, it HAS to be offered to everyone like that

[Jacob S]

And maybe those channels do offer ala carte to everyone on the other service providers, its just that the company itself such as Dish or Direct does not offer it that way.

[jegrant]

Maybe they will save on costs by offering the Select Sat ala carte package via online and/or remote control interactive tv ordering only, so that if you want to play pick and choose all day, you can't do it by calling a CSR. I think most people who are that picky/frugal would be willing to go online or use their remote to select which services they want. I'd hope that R/L would allow free switches/upgrades/downgrades, but perhaps limited to, say 2 times a month, or once a month, and then a $2-5 fee for each crossgrade or downgrade after that (but no fee if you upgrade).

[Jacob S]

This would really lower costs but not everyone has internet access or phone lines. They could offer a special for ordering online or through a remote because it would be cheaper for customers to do it that way.