Call Me When D* Puts Tivo Software In a HR2n [Archive]

F1 Fan

11-13-07, 01:57 PM

Well, I'd like an HD box but won't give up my TIVO. IT would drive the family nuts, plus OTA HD is great and the SD picture is fine. Seems like a no bariner for D*, even COMCAST figured it out..

Yeah

I feel the same way about those people driving them new fangled cars with nav systems and dvds.

Give me my Model T and a paper map and my phonograph any time!

[/sarcasm]

Seriously each to their own. You either love the Tivo so much you dont want to change and dont want the new HD channels or you dont. It appears you havent tried the HR20/21 so how can you know if you havent tried it (I always tell my kids that - and bet you do too :lol:)

I would prefer all the HD in the world and not have DVR if i had to. Fortunately i can have both and OTA. But as I said, whatever floats your boat.

Splendor

11-13-07, 02:14 PM

There's enough people who would shell out $500 for an MPEG-4 capable DirecTiVo that I just can't understand why they won't make one. It just makes me sad.

Earl Bonovich

11-13-07, 02:15 PM

There's enough people who would shell out $500 for an MPEG-4 capable DirecTiVo that I just can't understand why they won't make one. It just makes me sad.

Is there enough people that will offset the multi-million dollars it would take to develop it, let alone the costs of continued support of such a unit?

dreadlk

11-13-07, 02:21 PM

Some people just like to beat a Dead horse to death.:beatdeadhorse:

This will never happen, just get over it and move on. Even if DirecTv decided to change every HR20/21 to a Tivo HR22 there would be a lot more people bitching that they hate the New Tivo than people applauding the change. IOW the ship has sailed and there is no going back.:feelbette

stiffi

11-13-07, 02:22 PM

Ugh, why must people come here to troll constantly.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but what is SOO great about Tivo?

I was a big Tivo fan, but after 6 months with the HR20, I actually like it better.

Believe it or not, there are features, the HR20 or 21 have, that the Tivo does not.

The "idea" of liking Tivo better is actually more appealing than the process itself.

I defy anybody with a logical and/or open mind to show me why Tivo is markedly better than the HR20/21. The proof just isn't there.

Sure, you may like certain features better, but it's not like having the Directv products is causing any harm to people.

F1 Fan

11-13-07, 02:25 PM

jimb726

11-13-07, 02:25 PM

There's enough people who would shell out $500 for an MPEG-4 capable DirecTiVo that I just can't understand why they won't make one. It just makes me sad.

I think that the number of people who truly would pay a premium for the service is greatly overstated. Lets say there were two million HR10-250's in the market, what percentage of them are actually owned by people whose decision on their program carrier, is dictated by the method of delivery? I bet that number is pretty small, but for arguments sake assume 10%, thats a lot of people, but when you factor in the costs of the box and R&D, I bet that box is a ton more than 500 dollars. The reality is, D* will cater to the masses, for hardcore users on the fence it is time to move along. DirecTv can add 250,000 users a quarter without any advertising, or they can spend millions of dollars to develop a box that will cater to a very distinct minority. I know which direction I would go if I owned the company. They are already heading there.

bonscott87

11-13-07, 02:45 PM

There's enough people who would shell out $500 for an MPEG-4 capable DirecTiVo that I just can't understand why they won't make one. It just makes me sad.

You're kidding right? People don't even want to pay $99 or $199 for new receivers, you think Joe Blow is going to pay $500? Heck no they won't.

And actually at it's peak there were only 250K HR10s anyway. Maybe 100K left now. So they weren't flying off the shelves as it was. There would not be many people that will pay $500 for an MPEG4 DirecTivo. A few thousand, maybe.

aramus8

11-13-07, 03:15 PM

Do these TIVO guys still wear leisure suits? The HR20 is not that hard to use and its not that bad. Things change...you have to learn new things!!! TIVO brought this on themselves with their outrageous licensing fees. Go ahead and get your 12 HD channels on cable and enjoy your TIVO. Most of us don't want one or the fees they bring. I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting for D* to call you either.

Stuart Sweet

11-13-07, 03:17 PM

Ok, there is no call for personal attacks of any kind, whether fashion based or otherwise. Personally I can't imagine what remains to be said on this topic, but if you want to do so in a civil way, please continue. Otherwise...

noroll

11-13-07, 03:41 PM

I've had Tivo pretty much from day one and loved it...

But I wanted my HDTV and I won't get rid of D* so here I am.

I was a bit worried but I can honestly say I like my HR20 better than Tivo. (wife is a different story so I'll give ya that)

Why not give it a try?

stogie5150

11-13-07, 03:58 PM

Those of you that will accept no less than TIVO functionality, stop complaining. D* isn't listening, they weren't listening, and they won't be listening. They have decided which way they are going, and we TIVO lovers are NOT in their future plans. So adapt, or leave. I tried to adapt, got tired of it, and left. No amount of HD is acceptable if the box isn't working for what YOU want it to, regardless of how good everyone else says it is.

Its simple, really. There are folks that accept the HR20 for what it is, and learn to live with it. Like it even. The rest of us will complain, or leave. DIRECTV IS NOT LISTENING. GET USED TO IT. :)
Its hard to get your mind around sometimes, and we as humans don't like to do it, but sometimes there isn't a damned thing you can do about some situations. This is one of them.

And, FWIW, cable companies or E* are no better. Whatsoever. All boxes are built to the lowest common user. So if you're planning to leave for greener pastures, they don't exist, IMO.

bidger

11-13-07, 04:11 PM

I was a big Tivo fan, but after 6 months with the HR20, I actually like it better.

Ditto. The TiVo now feels a bit cumbersome to me.

Honestly, I picked up my first TiVo 7 years ago and, yeah, it changed the way I watch TV, but I'm not married to a DVR platform and I don't see any good reason(s) to limit my options.

Oh and I'd just like to add that prior to getting 6.3e last Thursday, the HR10 hasn't been all that stable with 6.x, so it's not like it walks on water.

stevecon

11-13-07, 04:27 PM

Tivo was an excellent product / service. The interface was very intuitive; hell, my 75 y.o. mother-in-law figured out 90% of it on her own.

Her Directivo died a couple of months ago, and we got a replacement - a new DirectDVR (R15?). It worked basically like my HR20-700 does - same remote, etc. After a short learning curve, the only thing I ever heard her complain about was the inability to do the MRV she had with the Tivo. That's it! Obviously, your mileage will vary.

I've had the HR20-700 for quite some time now and sure - there's been some issues (nearly all since resolved), but the new channels, VOD, etc. are all welcome additions and *more* than make up for past "transgressions". The biggest deal for me (probably never be resolved I suppose) is the remote. The Tivo peanut was a winner - and the layout of the keys was almost brilliant, IMHO. The current remote requires "finger olympics" to get the DVR to do what I want. I can live with that.

Splendor

11-13-07, 05:33 PM

badmonkey

11-13-07, 05:33 PM

This is completely off topic, but it would be kind of funny for someone to start a thread at TCF looking for DVR+ software on TiVo hardware...

That seems about as likely as TiVo software on HR2x hardware...

badmonkey

11-13-07, 05:35 PM

Everyone keeps saying that the new DVR's are 'not that bad'...'things change'....'get used to it'...'take off your leisure suit and step into the future'...

I understand...BUT WHY CAN'T THINGS CHANGE FOR THE BETTER?

They did. At least for me. My three HR20's are MUCH more reliable and stable than my three HR10's ever were... Not to mention all of the additional content, DoD, etc...

Each person has his/her own opinion of 'better' and my opinion is the HR2x wins hands down...

nuke

11-13-07, 06:09 PM

It won't happen.

I'd pay for it. But it won't happen.

Welcome to the least common denominator.

I stayed in a hotel a few weeks ago that advertised flat panel wide screen TV's in every suite. Sure enough, a nice big 40" LCD. No HD, just SD stretched. One of my colleagues complained about it, and at least wanted to set the thing to pillarbox. The engineering staff had no idea what he was talking about and moved him to another room. Of course, it was no different. No one had ever complained or noticed.

A million years ago, I worked in a TV repair shop while I was in engineering school. I learned first hand that 98% of the people will happily sit in front of a TV set with absolutely NO red gun functioning on the CRT and a vertical foldover that covered 1/3rd of the screen.

Enjoy your least common denominator experience.

rkreitl

11-13-07, 06:56 PM

What's worse, people that like Tivos and would still like the option of a Tivo powered D* DVR or those that feel the need to berate anyone that does indeed like Tivos? :p

IMO Tivo's crisp trick play dramatically outshines the HD2? units. If I press jump back on a Tivo it jumps back. It doesn't jump back 7 seconds, pause for 1/2 a second, jump forward 2 seconds and then studder for a second while the audio catches up. When I jump forward 30 seconds my Tivo does it. It doesn't slip ahead 32-35 seconds and pause while the audio plays for 1-2 seconds.

Add to that the lack of a Slo-Mo button on the HR2? units. :nono2:

Earl Bonovich

11-13-07, 07:04 PM

Add to that the lack of a PAUSE button on the HR2? units. :nono2:

Ummm... not sure if you are looking at the same remote that I am...
But there is a pause buton right there.

bidger

11-13-07, 07:13 PM

What's worse, people that like Tivos and would still like the option of a Tivo powered D* DVR or those that feel the need to berate anyone that does indeed like Tivos? :p

Oh please, like die-hard TiVotees don't berate other DVR platforms. Sorry, I've been around too long to fall for that.

Add to that the lack of a PAUSE button on the HR2? units. :nono2:

WTFRU talkin' about?

inkahauts

11-13-07, 08:57 PM

stogie5150

11-13-07, 09:02 PM

Oh please, like die-hard TiVotees don't berate other DVR platforms. Sorry, I've been around too long to fall for that.

WTFRU talkin' about?

I think he means that if you pause something, then go into the playlist, play something, them come back, the TIVO would still be paused. The HR20 loses that pause point.

Milominderbinder2

11-13-07, 09:38 PM

In 2005, DIRECTV faced a decision. Have TiVo program the HR20/21 for them or license the TiVo patents and do it themselves.

If TiVo would have programmed the HR20, we would still be waiting for it just like Comcast.

Instead they extended the patent licenses...

TiVo Contract/Patent Licenses Extended Through 2010 (http://seekingalpha.com/article/9028-directv-can-t-kick-the-tivo-habit-dtv-tivo)
• TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007.

The licensing agreement covers all of TiVo's patents and all development through 2010..

Maybe in 2011, DIRECTV will throw out their work and sign a contract to have TiVo do their programming again.

All we know for sure is the past. TiVo always announces contracts like that as soon as the ink dries. Also, when TiVo announces partnerships with DIRECTV or Comcast, etc. it has always been at least 2 1/2 years until the first field trials. TiVo has never secretly worked on a contract and announced it only once it was done.

DIRECTV CEO Chase Carey was at the helm when the current TiVo direction was set. His contract was just extended 3 years.

So maybe in 2 1/2 years. Maybe in 2013. Maybe never. Maybe TiVo has been working on it in a top secret facility in Kamchatka all along. :)

As to that phone call you are waiting on...

Ring...Ring!

Made you look!

- Craig

rkreitl

11-13-07, 09:53 PM

Ummm... not sure if you are looking at the same remote that I am...
But there is a pause buton right there.
Sorry, my fault....Slo_mo! :new_Eyecr

mikbro

11-13-07, 10:27 PM

Over the last 11 years I have owned (and used for more than 6+ months)...

Dishnetwork Dishplayer (The first Satellite DVR)
Dishnetwork 722 (just got rid of Dish for DirecTv)
Tivo (Series 1, 2 and 3HD)
Directv UltimateTv
SageTV (Home Theater PC)
ReplayTV
Various Comcast and SA cable DVRs

and most recently and currently an HR21

For reliability and rock solid functionality I have to rate the Tivo's the highest. The boxes just worked (and I participated in several of their betas). The HD Tivo's are hampered by the fact that not all cable co's play by the rules and installation was more complex because of it for the average user.

For features and "tweakability" SageTV was the best.

But I have to say (knock on wood) that the HR21 has been both reliable and has a more tweakable settings than everything but SageTV. I had pretty low expectations after reading the forums.

Also - to compare it with my most recent experience with the 722 and Dish, there is no comparison. The HR21 beats it hands down in the UI and searching capabilities, not to mention "tweaks".

The *only* issues I have with the H21 currently are not major (for me):
1. Channels I Receive bug
2. The unit is not quite as responsive as I had hoped at times (still better in general than the Tivo)
3. Guide data took a while to populate, but all seems fine now.

Add this to what appears to be DTV's desire to improve the unit w/software releases makes me comfortable with the future... bring on DoD!

cygnusloop

11-13-07, 10:32 PM

...Add this to what appears to be DTV's desire to improve the unit w/software releases makes me comfortable with the future... bring on DoD!

Nice first post, mikbro.

:welcome_s to DBSTalk!

Marcus S

11-13-07, 11:08 PM

This is so the Mac versus the PC thing.

Mac: We can't be infected by Virus's
PC: You are now as of Tiger / Leopard

Mac: We have more multi-media than PC
PC: After you pay for the neccessary upgrades, full subscription, to take it to a full functional product aka "Trialware", iYawn.

Mac: Our version of Office puts PC to shame.
PC: Um, that would be Microsoft Office for Mac?

Mac: So sorry Vista users who are now switching back to XP because there 1987 printer and scanner won't work under Vista.
PC: Um, how many Apple revisions of this OS have been released in the last two years, how many apps are no longer compatible under the Intel platform, $$$'s in upgrades after every major OS release?

So here we are, Tivo users love the fact that owning one means subscribing to telemarketing. I also love the fact that Tivo is now auto renewing subscriptions on behalf of their beloved followers. Email: You have been auto renewed using your last cc on file. A bit desperate to retain subs?

This get's me 70+ channels of HD how? Um, I think Comcast is now pushing at least 22 HD channels... Technology changes, grow or live in the past. That 8-Track of Glen Campbell sounds as good as the day we bought it in 1977 Martha.

aramus8

11-14-07, 12:51 AM

Technology changes, grow or live in the past. That 8-Track of Glen Campbell sounds as good as the day we bought it in 1977 Martha.4-tracks were first and they sounded better than 8-tracks!!!

beer_geek

11-14-07, 05:21 AM

You're kidding right? People don't even want to pay $99 or $199 for new receivers, you think Joe Blow is going to pay $500? Heck no they won't.

And actually at it's peak there were only 250K HR10s anyway. Maybe 100K left now. So they weren't flying off the shelves as it was. There would not be many people that will pay $500 for an MPEG4 DirecTivo. A few thousand, maybe.

While I agree that people won't spend that kind of money, using the past sales as an indicator is a bit of a reach. There wasn't the amount of HD programming back then as there is today. It seems obvious to me that more people will want see the HD stuff. Futhermore, the prices of the displays have dropped considerably in the past year; prompting more people to switch to HD programming.

Earl Bonovich

11-14-07, 05:27 AM

While I agree that people won't spend that kind of money, using the past sales as an indicator is a bit of a reach. There wasn't the amount of HD programming back then as there is today. It seems obvious to me that more people will want see the HD stuff. Futhermore, the prices of the displays have dropped considerably in the past year; prompting more people to switch to HD programming.

Still doesn't mean people would be willing to spend an extra $500 per receiver, plus (what would probably be) an elivated DVR service fee per month...

To have TiVo, Inc technology over the DVR+ series.... at a volume high enough to justify the millions of dollars it would take to develop and support it.

beer_geek

11-14-07, 05:51 AM

Still doesn't mean people would be willing to spend an extra $500 per receiver, plus (what would probably be) an elivated DVR service fee per month...

To have TiVo, Inc technology over the DVR+ series.... at a volume high enough to justify the millions of dollars it would take to develop and support it.

What part of "While I agree that people won't spend that kind of money..." conflicts with your first sentence?

My post was addressing Bonscott's use of the number of sales of the HDTivo unit as an indicator of its popularity. At the time, there wasn't much programming and the displays were way more expensive than they are today.

allenn

11-14-07, 10:13 AM

......I know I'm preaching to the choir, but what is SOO great about Tivo?

Believe it or not, there are features, the HR20 or 21 have, that the Tivo does not.

I defy anybody with a logical and/or open mind to show me why Tivo is markedly better than the HR20/21. The proof just isn't there......

Explain how you get the HR20/21 to record your likes and dislikes. There are many programs listed in the guide, and I do not have time to Search for all automobile, electronics / tech, railroad programs or old movie musicals. These are the things that interest me. TIVO will record them when they appear in the program guide for any given week currently or in the future. I do not have to do anything but give the thumbs up or down on programs I watch. TIVO does the rest. I have looked everywhere for a similar feature in the HR21 that I currently have. I would appreciate you counseling me on how this is done in the HR series of DVR's?????? If you provide me with a reasonalbe solution, then I will concede to your view. Thanks!

houskamp

11-14-07, 11:23 AM

4-tracks were first and they sounded better than 8-tracks!!!
but they took my pulse dial phone line away 2 months ago to :mad: :lol:

Doug Brott

11-14-07, 11:24 AM

The licensing agreement covers all of TiVo's patents and all development through 2010..
emphasis mine

Interesting comment .. This could explain why the FF correction was implemented despite TiVo clearly owning the Patent.

CTJon

11-14-07, 11:41 AM

Ummm... not sure if you are looking at the same remote that I am...
But there is a pause buton right there.

NO - there is a button that causes a pause in the show but no pause button.

In one of the 10,000 prior threads about how great / bad TIVO is I remember a very common issue is the remote and not the box itself.

KCCardsfan

11-14-07, 11:48 AM

Sorry, my fault....Slo_mo! :new_Eyecr

Slo-Mo works great on my HR20, just press and hold the Play button.

cygnusloop

11-14-07, 11:57 AM

Slo-Mo works great on my HR20, just press and hold the Play button.

Which is fine if you can predict 3 seconds in advance when you want slo-mo to start. Press-and-hold is a horrible implementation for slow motion.

Earl Bonovich

11-14-07, 12:03 PM

NO - there is a button that causes a pause in the show but no pause button.

In one of the 10,000 prior threads about how great / bad TIVO is I remember a very common issue is the remote and not the box itself.

Again Huh?

There is a button marked: || the non-verbal standard symbol for PAUSE

So are you saying you want an actual button with the word PAUSE vs a key with the pretty common ||

While I do have an issue with the layout of the remote... the fact that there is a button, denoted as pause, that causes the unit to pause... is not on that list of issues

tooloud10

11-14-07, 12:04 PM

Ok I have to ask. What is so special about Tivo? You would pay almost 2x the price of an HR20/21 for a Tivo? When so many people are moaning about the current price of the HR20/21?

I have to be honest and say I have never had one but I cannot find anything on the internet about why the Tivo is so awesome that people would pay 2x the cost of its current competition.

For me it would have to be able to be programmed telepathically and also know what I may like before I know it myself.

But I am curious to know - so please enlighten me. I feel I have possibly missed out on the 8th wonder of the world they way people are going on.

For me, it's simply because the Tivo just WORKED. I have one HR20-700 that gets mild usage and one HR20-100 that gets heavy usage. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around the HR20s because they'll either lock up or show only a black screen or I might try to play a program and it'll immediately ask if it should be deleted.

Every new software update seems to introduce different/new demons in my boxes, yet I don't actually think that there's anything "wrong" with them. I tend to "hold my breath" when I'm attempting to play a show I really want to see.

My Tivo boxes? They just ran and ran and ran some more. I didn't have to worry that my programs might disappear--or simply not record.

In short, I still like the Tivos better because I didn't have to babysit them. The fancy features of the HR20 are great, but can't they just get the basic functions of the box more reliable first?

Earl Bonovich

11-14-07, 12:04 PM

Explain how you get the HR20/21 to record your likes and dislikes. There are many programs listed in the guide, and I do not have time to Search for all automobile, electronics / tech, railroad programs or old movie musicals. These are the things that interest me. TIVO will record them when they appear in the program guide for any given week currently or in the future. I do not have to do anything but give the thumbs up or down on programs I watch. TIVO does the rest. I have looked everywhere for a similar feature in the HR21 that I currently have. I would appreciate you counseling me on how this is done in the HR series of DVR's?????? If you provide me with a reasonalbe solution, then I will concede to your view. Thanks!

Well you already know the answer....

Suggestions are a TiVo Patent....
So if that particular feature is critical to you, don't ever plan to leave a TiVo box then.

KCCardsfan

11-14-07, 12:09 PM

Which is fine if you can predict 3 seconds in advance when you want slo-mo to start. Press-and-hold is a horrible implementation for slow motion.

Sorry, I was responding to the quote from post #24 that there was NO Slo-Mo on the HR units.

'Add to that the lack of a Slo-Mo button on the HR2? units.'

tooloud10

11-14-07, 12:11 PM

Everyone keeps saying that the new DVR's are 'not that bad'...'things change'....'get used to it'...'take off your leisure suit and step into the future'...

I understand...BUT WHY CAN'T THINGS CHANGE FOR THE BETTER?

That's a great point. A lot of people don't seem to notice that a lot of comments about the HR20 start out with "Well, it's not THAT bad...". Personally, I just tend to expect more out of a DVR than what they HR20 has provided.

I keep telling myself that the HR20 is a great first effort, then I remind myself that it's been around for over a year already. I don't care how good the HR20 is relative to when it first came out.

rkreitl

11-14-07, 12:38 PM

Sorry, I was responding to the quote from post #24 that there was NO Slo-Mo on the HR units.

'Add to that the lack of a Slo-Mo button on the HR2? units.'
There is no Slo-mo button on the HR20/21. Pressing and holding the PLAY button for 3 seconds <> a Slo-mo button. The lack of which prevents one from pausing a show and then being able to start the slow motion function directly.

Plus, it seems that the slow motion function on the HR20/21 is not as slow as it is on my Tivo units. Even frame advance seems to advance more like 10 frames on the HR20/21 versus a frame at a time on Tivos. When watching action shows/movies or sports this is a much needed function in my book.

bonscott87

11-14-07, 12:54 PM

That's a great point. A lot of people don't seem to notice that a lot of comments about the HR20 start out with "Well, it's not THAT bad...". Personally, I just tend to expect more out of a DVR than what they HR20 has provided.

I keep telling myself that the HR20 is a great first effort, then I remind myself that it's been around for over a year already. I don't care how good the HR20 is relative to when it first came out.

What more do you want? It records my shows. What the heck else do I need? End of story.

And the HR20 does a whole lot more then that as it is.

harsh

11-14-07, 01:15 PM

I understand...BUT WHY CAN'T THINGS CHANGE FOR THE BETTER?Intellectual Property rights (patents).

Earl Bonovich

11-14-07, 01:17 PM

Stuart Sweet

11-14-07, 01:19 PM

Personally I think the HR20 is a ton better than the TiVo, based on the channels it can record.

Splendor

11-14-07, 01:28 PM

Personally I think the HR20 is a ton better than the TiVo, based on the channels it can record.

And what would you think if they could record the same channels?

harsh

11-14-07, 01:29 PM

Personally I think the HR20 is a ton better than the TiVo, based on the channels it can record.But you don't have to worry about the TiVo trying to record CIDG. ;)

Bonscott's protestations aside, the HR2x still seems to have trouble reliably recording entire shows for a number of users. Whether it is the guide data they can't seem to condition to work right or a design flaw in the software. There remains room for improvement in the most basic DVR functionality of the HR2x.

stiffi

11-14-07, 01:30 PM

Explain how you get the HR20/21 to record your likes and dislikes. There are many programs listed in the guide, and I do not have time to Search for all automobile, electronics / tech, railroad programs or old movie musicals. These are the things that interest me. TIVO will record them when they appear in the program guide for any given week currently or in the future. I do not have to do anything but give the thumbs up or down on programs I watch. TIVO does the rest. I have looked everywhere for a similar feature in the HR21 that I currently have. I would appreciate you counseling me on how this is done in the HR series of DVR's?????? If you provide me with a reasonalbe solution, then I will concede to your view. Thanks!

I don't miss this feature, at all. In fact, it kind of annoyed me. I was constantly deleting the garbage the Tivo "thought" I liked, without even watching it. I think the features added in the HR20/21 far outweigh losing the Thumbs. That goes for Dual Live Buffers too. I do miss that, but again, the additions outweigh the loss in my mind.

coacho

11-14-07, 01:36 PM

The solution for the Tivo fans is really a pretty good one. Just use both the HR10 and HR20 - only about $5 per month with 4 tuners and another 300gb of storage and triple live buffers.

Since the HR10 gets locals in HD and a few other HD channels, I can use it for most everything I watch. Then use the HR20 for those others channels that I just have to see in HD plus the HR20 pulls one OTA channel better than my HR10. I can live happily with this until they come out with a unit better than both the HR10 and HR20.

donshan

11-14-07, 01:36 PM

I am a long time user of Tivo with one Sony Tivo built in 2000 that I just replaced with a new HR20, and I retired a 4yr old HR10-250 Tivo for an HR20 last June. Rather than say one is better than the other, I think a better explanation of this debate lies in how the human interface works with different kinds of people. Some people find it easy to remember PC keyboards shortcuts, others always use Menus because remembering two key combinations is beyond their memory skills. They want all the options displayed so they can then pick the right one they want- it is called "provide visual clues to locate all functions".

For decades the majority of people could not even set the clock on a VCR, much less program one to record TV. Now we have a complex DVR with even more functions and are asking those same people, who could not set a VCR clock, to learn how to run a HR20/21.

The problem of Tivo users learning to run the HR20/21 is related to the person's interest in the technology and their ability to remember a sequence of operating procedures without visual clues. The Tivo has a main menu which allows complete operation using just four of the main Menu items 1) Now Playing ( same as Playlist to play from the DVR), 2) Watch Live TV, 3) Record ( all search/record functions), and 4) Setup(All setup items used mostly only once). These are similar in concept to the Harmony Remote Activities Concept- group all items under one title under one activity button- no memorization of details required.

In contrast the HR20 user will find the main Menu is different depending on context- you have to remember which "Menu" you get from each context. Pushing Menu while watching TV brings up several items such as audio, parental, favorites, and caller ID that could placed be under "setup". In contrast it is not obvious to a Tivo user they need to go to "Help and Settings" and then "Scheduler" to find part of the DVR record functions, but then have to push the "Info button" to find the other DVR functions. There are other shortcuts like clicking on the channel number that are not obvious. Recording TV is the main purpose of the HR20/21 - it deserves to be a Main Menu item much more than "audio" & "parental" which are current HR20/21 top priority Main Menu items. It is non intuitive to a Tivo trained user.

For those Tivo devotees, the HR20/21 has most Tivo operating search, DVR and other functions if you read and learn the Survival Guide, and then memorize the menu sequences and color keys to find them. In addition there are a number of enhancements in the HR20/21 that the older Tivo did not have- but you need to find them. Once I memorized how to get to them they are great to use. But if you don't find PC keyboard shortcuts easy to use, the HR20/21 will be a challenge too. I have mastered the HR20 in a few months- my wife still would like Tivo.

The menu organization of the HR20 badly needs some human interface work for the " I can't set the VCR clock user" and a first time visitor I need to train to use the HR20 system in 1 minute.

tooloud10

11-14-07, 02:03 PM

What more do you want? It records my shows. What the heck else do I need? End of story.

See, that's exactly the problem--I routinely have shows simply not record, or, in the case of last week's Desperate Housewives, it'll appear to record correctly and then display a single frame of the show with a "Delete now?" message. Or, it'll be on the To Do list for a week and just disappear right before the show is scheduled to start.

This happens sporadically--once a week is a good estimate. Judging by the number of similar complaints, I don't believe that there's anything specifically wrong with my boxes, so trading them out probably won't do anything except to ensure that I lose ALL of my recordings.

That said, if DVRs were only expected to only "record my shows", this would all be a lot simpler proposition.

tooloud10

11-14-07, 02:05 PM

Personally I think the HR20 is a ton better than the TiVo, based on the channels it can record.

With that logic, you'd be happier with a DVR that can receive 1000 HD channels but only reliably record 30 minutes per week.

tooloud10

11-14-07, 02:07 PM

donshan

11-14-07, 02:30 PM

See, that's exactly the problem--I routinely have shows simply not record, or, in the case of last week's Desperate Housewives, it'll appear to record correctly and then display a single frame of the show with a "Delete now?" message. Or, it'll be on the To Do list for a week and just disappear right before the show is scheduled to start.

This happens sporadically--once a week is a good estimate. Judging by the number of similar complaints, I don't believe that there's anything specifically wrong with my boxes, so trading them out probably won't do anything except to ensure that I lose ALL of my recordings.

That said, if DVRs were only expected to only "record my shows", this would all be a lot simpler proposition.

I have had these same problems several times too. I am currently testing Prioritizer list rankings. When a new "record series" is set it automatically goes to the lowest priority ranking for recording leading to the possibility of some older Prioritizer settings "outranking" the new settings for recording priority. Prioritizer uses some unstated logic to resolve conflicts if two items conflict for recording, but I need more info on how it decides what to do. I now move the new, important repeat series recordings near the top of the Prioritizer list, and delete any obsolete ones, and have not had a record failure since I started doing this. I suspect moving an item up near the top and deleting obsolete items forces the software to redo the "to do" list, possibly removing errors.

Stuart Sweet

11-14-07, 02:37 PM

And what would you think if they could record the same channels?

But you don't have to worry about the TiVo trying to record CIDG. ;)

Bonscott's protestations aside, the HR2x still seems to have trouble reliably recording entire shows for a number of users. Whether it is the guide data they can't seem to condition to work right or a design flaw in the software. There remains room for improvement in the most basic DVR functionality of the HR2x.

With that logic, you'd be happier with a DVR that can receive 1000 HD channels but only reliably record 30 minutes per week.

In a "hypothetical" situation where both could record the same... I'd look at the total capabilities. I wouldn't be happy with a situation as described by tooloud10, of course. My point is simply that the ability to receive the programming I want is significantly more important than user interface issues or peripheral capabilities.

We could bandy about hypotheticals, or we can focus on the content, which, I suspect, is the true determining factor when deciding what company is going to provide your television service.

hdtvfan0001

11-14-07, 02:40 PM

When I saw this thread heading...I was thinking...yeah...call me too...I want to order a 55 gallon drum of Pepto if that ever happens. :D :lol:

houskamp

11-14-07, 02:55 PM

I have had these same problems several times too. I am currently testing Prioritizer list rankings. When a new "record series" is set it automatically goes to the lowest priority ranking for recording leading to the possibility of some older Prioritizer settings "outranking" the new settings for recording priority. Prioritizer uses some unstated logic to resolve conflicts if two items conflict for recording, but I need more info on how it decides what to do. I now move the new, important repeat series recordings near the top of the Prioritizer list, and delete any obsolete ones, and have not had a record failure since I started doing this. I suspect moving an item up near the top and deleting obsolete items forces the software to redo the "to do" list, possibly removing errors.
I always put the shows that only air once at the top of the list as it will record a repeat airing... IE. scifi shows are always at the bottom because they play them 3 times a night..

carl6

11-14-07, 03:37 PM

Explain how you get the HR20/21 to record your likes and dislikes. There are many programs listed in the guide, and I do not have time to Search for all automobile, electronics / tech, railroad programs or old movie musicals.

I will start by admitting I have very limited experience with the Tivo interface. I have an R10, and had it in service for about six months total. I think the very first, or maybe second, thing I did was turn of the suggestions. For me it was an absolutely useless and totally inconvenient feature. Worst idea I think I ever saw. In my opinion, which is obviously the exact opposite of yours.

Why did I turn my R10 off after six months? Because I just could not get used to the slow and cumbersome, non intuitive, confusing user interface and menu. Oh, did I mention I had an R15 before the R10, and learned the DirecTV interface first? Hmmm. Maybe that has something to do with it?

I will agree that if the direction of DirecTV DVR development was moving the opposite direction (toward rather than away from Tivo), I most certainly could get used to the other implementation and make it work for me. And, if that were the case, I would be getting rid of the DirecTV Plus units just so I didn't have to deal with the two substantially different user interfaces and menu structures. But that isn't the direction it is moving, so I did what I thought was the most easily implemented and logical solution to having two different interfaces and systems, I got rid of the one that was going away.

Change is inevitable. Why can't I set my VHF tuning dial to the "U" position, then rotate my UHF tuning dial to the channel I want like I used to be able to do? Why can't I buy a rotary dial phone anymore (without paying antique prices)? Heck, I used to be able to change tv channels by rattling my keys, why doesn't that work any more? (or am I the only one old enough to remember sonic remotes).

[/soap box]

Carl

linerjoe

11-14-07, 03:59 PM

I don't miss this feature, at all. In fact, it kind of annoyed me. I was constantly deleting the garbage the Tivo "thought" I liked, without even watching it. I think the features added in the HR20/21 far outweigh losing the Thumbs. That goes for Dual Live Buffers too. I do miss that, but again, the additions outweigh the loss in my mind.

Not everyone feels this way. I personally didn't use the suggestions. My wife on the other hand, LOVED suggestions. There were always kids shows on there, and a variety of home/craft stuff. That alone may make me keep the HR10 around for awhile. We'll see how it works out. I'm sure that a year from now we'll be totally fine with the HR20/21 series. We're only on day 2 at the moment.

So far, I really have been impressed with the unit (HR21). I don't think it's much more difficult (if at all) than the TiVo, but it is definitely different, and there is a learning curve since it's not the TiVo way. My biggest complaint was lack of OTA, but I'm supposed to pick up my HR20 tonight so that complaint should go away.

I was very concerned about letting go of the TiVo, but I think we'll be ok.

joe

cygnusloop

11-14-07, 04:04 PM

I was very concerned about letting go of the TiVo, but I think we'll be ok.

joe

Yes, I think you will be fine. Just like the other 99% of us who have successfully made the transition. I loved my TiVo, I have learned to love my HR20. The TiVo to HD Plus DVR Survival Guide (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=69404) helped. Now, even my wife loves it.

vurbano

11-14-07, 04:07 PM

Milominderbinder2

11-14-07, 08:15 PM

I understand...BUT WHY CAN'T THINGS CHANGE FOR THE BETTER?Intellectual Property rights (patents).That is just not true in this case.

DIRECTV has access to every TiVo patent for all development work through 12/31/2010.

TiVo Contract/Patent Licenses Extended Through 2010 (http://seekingalpha.com/article/9028-directv-can-t-kick-the-tivo-habit-dtv-tivo)
• TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007.

Anything DIRECTV can get done by 12/31/2010 is theirs to continue to use. DIRECTV could take the whole TiVo interface and even the Thumbs Up if they wanted.

DIRECTV could make the HR20/21 as easy to use as a TiVo.

- Craig

Milominderbinder2

11-14-07, 08:17 PM

MikeR

11-14-07, 08:45 PM

:lol:

We need a bad monkey to do it!

- Craig

That would be you at TCF;) :lol: :lol: :D

bonscott87

11-14-07, 08:52 PM

I would pay the 500 for it. But not a dime for this HR20 POS I got for free.

Sweet, Vurbano passes thru on a drive by. Those never get old. :D

inkahauts

11-14-07, 08:57 PM

DIRECTV could make the HR20/21 as easy to use as a TiVo.

- Craig

The only problem with that statement is that I already find the HR20 easier to use than a tivo, and making it more like a tivo would keep it from going in the right direction and create a more cumbersome gui.... for me at least.... Tivo is great, HR20 is Better.... sadly, replay is still the best...:grin:

Earl Bonovich

11-14-07, 09:04 PM

I would pay the 500 for it. But not a dime for this HR20 POS I got for free.

Again... are there enough people like you... that are willing to pay the elivated price and a possibly higher service fee... to offset the millions in development of a new system and the support/licensing for that system.

Kansas Zephyr

11-14-07, 09:23 PM

I liked the TiVo interface. But, I'm adjusting to the HR20. No biggie.

The HR20 turns several more tricks. That's great! I like it.

But, I have missed shows and partially recorded shows on the HR20. Plus, every new automatic software update/reset/RBR/power cycle scrambles the OTA, and needs to be straightened out only via "initial setup".

This either never happened, or was so infrequent that I've forgotten, with my HR10-250.

My wife doesn't get the "it's new...and the bugs are being worked out." She just asks where are "her" shows. (For the record, his and hers DVRs make a better marriage).

I think most of the kevetching is over the fact that D* decided to reinvent the wheel. Which would not have been an issue, if it was as reliable in performing the most basic function that a DVR is asked to do, when released.

highgeer

11-15-07, 11:06 AM

Yup, I'm a TiVo bandwagoneer! I have two DirecTiVo units and absolutely love them. The sales puke told me there was no difference between the TiVo and the HR-20 I got back in May - um, not so much.

I am a new user to DBSTalk, and I've just discovered the Tips and Tricks PDF as well as the TiVo to HD Survival Guide, so I am sure there are some things in there that will make my experience more pleasant then it has been. However, in my first look through the T&T, I can say that the biggest source of my frustration has been the first five bugs in the Workarounds section: Wrong Info Bug, Channels I Get Bug, Search Bug, Prioritizer Bug, and Autorecord Bug.

I think the HR20 is a great box for most folks who watch "regular" shows (CSI, Simpsons, Daily Show). However, I have TV and upgraded to HDTV because I am a sports nut. If I lose another Broncos game to channel 761 (which I don't receive) because the recorder is too stupid to know which channels I receive and overrides my manual recording, I'm going to throw this thing into a bathtub full of water. I've given up scrolling through hundreds of soccer games on channels I don't receive just to find the next upcoming game on a channel I do receive. Yeah, my DirectTiVos handle both of these with flying colors.

I also miss the DLB feature, and I don't like the function of the playback buttons. Holding the Play button for slo-mo is so frustrating, because a) I have to predict it by 5 seconds or so, and b) many times it doesn't actually slo-mo, or does for only a second then goes back to regular speed. Is the Replay button six seconds, nine, 15? It's never consistent. And is the Advance button 30 seconds, 32, 35?!

If D* has the full access to all TiVo patents, my suggestion would be to start using them, particularly as it relates to the five bugs listed previously. I am watching the holiday sales this year, and if I can get a TiVo HD S3 for less $300 or less (it is at $400 now for the top end model), I will be doing it and dropping D* for Comcrap, a cable company I despise.

jelliott

11-15-07, 11:18 AM

Again... are there enough people like you... that are willing to pay the elivated price and a possibly higher service fee... to offset the millions in development of a new system and the support/licensing for that system.

I only know who I know...

Of the people I know who have had Directivo boxes and are now using HR20-xxx boxes, all of them including myself would jump to a Tivo powered box without concern to a 500 dollar plus box cost. I'm not a HR20 'hater' mine has worked with very few problems. That being said, all my Tivo boxes have worked with zero problems. And my wife hates the HR20, which counts for a lot. :p

Stuart Sweet

11-15-07, 11:22 AM

:welcome_s highgeer!

DIRECTV actually does not have access to TiVo's patents. All development for DirecTivos was done by TiVo, Inc.

narrod

11-15-07, 12:27 PM

I only know who I know...

Of the people I know who have had Directivo boxes and are now using HR20-xxx boxes, all of them including myself would jump to a Tivo powered box without concern to a 500 dollar plus box cost. I'm not a HR20 'hater' mine has worked with very few problems. That being said, all my Tivo boxes have worked with zero problems. And my wife hates the HR20, which counts for a lot. :p

Wait, you never had a single problem with some of the HR10 software upgrades?
Hard to believe.

MIMOTech

11-15-07, 12:44 PM

kwsmithphoto

11-15-07, 01:09 PM

There's enough people who would shell out $500 for an MPEG-4 capable DirecTiVo that I just can't understand why they won't make one. It just makes me sad.

I would!

I have an HR20-700 and 2 RCA DirecTivo's. Got the HR20 5 weeks ago, to go along with the plasma that became part of the family in a new (to us) house.

At first I really didn't like the HR20's interface. 5 weeks later I really don't like it even more! My technophobic fiancee still can't figure it out but she figured out Tivo in 5 minutes.

Tivo nailed it the user interface, everything else is just a bad knockoff. OK, the HR20 is better than my neighbor's Motorola/Time Warner DVR's, but that's damning with faint praise at best.

It doesn't help that the HR20 threw up a "station has ended broadcasting" message on every single channel last night, requiring a reset. It's not the install - it's all new from dish to box and recently tweaked by a second tier installer. The RCA's didn't lose signal, just the HR20 did. I hope that doesn't become a regular thing.

Kansas Zephyr

11-15-07, 01:12 PM

Wait, you never had a single problem with some of the HR10 software upgrades?
Hard to believe.
No...I didn't have any software issues with my HR10-250.

If there were any, they were transparent in my usage.

I wish I could say the same about the HR20s.

Again...the HR20 is faster and with more features. But, it should be a rock solid, pick it, and forget it, DVR first. I don't care if it's bad guide data, or not. The TiVo missed either none of the, or so few I've forgotten, series I wanted to record.

bonscott87

11-15-07, 01:19 PM

Over all the HR20-700 is a nice DVR, especially nice since I added in he 1TB HD. Only feature I miss is the Tivo Guide, was much nicer to review a channel quickly through to the end of the guide. Liked to use it with the movie channels to get a new stock of movies to watch. Can be done with the HR20, but is a lot more work.

Not sure if you're aware of this but you can do this on the HR20, although a bit differently.

Bring up the guide, left to highlight the channel number and hit the INFO button.
It will pull up the entire guide for that channel.
One touch record what you want. Easy to record a dozen movies over the next 2 weeks in less then a minute. Time saved alone over a Tivo is priceless.
If there is another channel you want to check then just left arrow or use the back button to get back to the guide, arrow up or down to the next channel and hit info.
Not really all that many extra button pushes then a Tivo, about the same actually. It just uses a different screen to show the one channel vs. on the same screen using the Tivo guide.
Not saying either is better or worse, just saying it's pretty easy on the HR20 as well.

danco

11-15-07, 01:26 PM

Of the people I know who have had Directivo boxes and are now using HR20-xxx boxes, all of them including myself would jump to a Tivo powered box without concern to a 500 dollar plus box cost.

Count me out of the TiVo fan club...I like my HR20-700 waaaaay better than my HR10-250 HD-TiVo.

At least D* is providing software updates for their boxes.

I had quite a few missed recordings with my HD-TiVo, and several lock-ups to boot. The only software update I saw in the 18 months I owned the HR10-250 was the long awaited "folders" update, which came about a month before I upgraded to the HR20. Too little, too late...

The *only* item remaining on my personal wish-list for the HR20 is dual live buffers. D* has already addressed the other TiVo features that were originally missing from the HR20.

~Dan

1sweetchevy

11-15-07, 01:32 PM

In 2005, DIRECTV faced a decision. Have TiVo program the HR20/21 for them or license the TiVo patents and do it themselves.

If TiVo would have programmed the HR20, we would still be waiting for it just like Comcast.

Instead they extended the patent licenses...

Where are my dual live buffers then?

I'll admit when I got my R-15 I hated it with a passion. I put it in the guest room never (almost) to be used again, and bought another TiVo unit off E-bay. Then when it came time to upgrage to HD, I realized I would have to learn to live without TiVo since the HR10-250 wouldn't get the new channels. Now that I've had my HR20-700 for a year, the only thing abot the TiVo that I miss is the dual live buffers. Other than the DLB I now love my HR more than my TiVos.

jelliott

11-15-07, 02:22 PM

Wait, you never had a single problem with some of the HR10 software upgrades?
Hard to believe.

Like someone else who replied to this. Nothing I was able to see. I wasn't on any forums like these to know about something I may not otherwise notice. Like I said in my first post, I don't hate the HR20, but I would jump ship without a second thought to go back to a new Tivo box.

stiffi

11-15-07, 02:32 PM

.

I think the HR20 is a great box for most folks who watch "regular" shows (CSI, Simpsons, Daily Show). However, I have TV and upgraded to HDTV because I am a sports nut. If I lose another Broncos game to channel 761 (which I don't receive) because the recorder is too stupid to know which channels I receive and overrides my manual recording, I'm going to throw this thing into a bathtub full of water.

What feature are you using on the HR20 to get it to record something you didn't tell it to? I wasn't aware there was such a thing.

I actually experienced the situation you are talking about all the time with Tivo. I would go to a suggestion recording thinking "Oh goody, I would like to watch that", only to find out it was on a channel I didn't get.

I have never had that problem on the HR20, because it doesn't have suggestions.

harsh

11-15-07, 02:35 PM

At least D* is providing software updates for their boxes.In case it escaped you, the HR10 is a DIRECTV branded device also.

Kansas Zephyr

11-15-07, 03:21 PM

At least D* is providing software updates for their boxes.

That's because D* needs to keep fixing things, that are buggy.

Nothing is flawless, but missing recordings was such a small instance with my HR10-250 (owned since 2003) that I don't remember it as an issue.

I do like the HR20. It does some very nice things now, and will do more later.

It's just not as reliable (yet) as the HR10-250 for the basics.

bonscott87

11-15-07, 03:22 PM

Where are my dual live buffers then?

Dual Live buffers isn't a Tivo patent.

allenn

11-15-07, 03:30 PM

......but I would jump ship without a second thought to go back to a new Tivo box.

Me too about jumping ship! The HR10 is more intuitive than the HR21. I did not need a Tips and Trick PDF to figure out how to operate the remote. Also, the audio was in sync with the video for recorded and live shows. And I did not need to search the program guide for 14 days to find programs that I wanted to watch. TIVO did a great job of finding programs that interest me. Finally, I had OTA capability which the HR21 does not.

dreadlk

11-15-07, 03:46 PM

I did not know this, a very cool Tip Thanks.

Bring up the guide, left to highlight the channel number and hit the INFO button.
It will pull up the entire guide for that channel.
One touch record what you want. Easy to record a dozen movies over the next 2 weeks in less then a minute. Time saved alone over a Tivo is priceless.
.

BTW For you Tivo lovers, whats the point :beatdeadhorse:
It's never going too happen so why waste time even talking about it. Just give it up and adapt, even if all 10 of you on this forum paid the extra $500 it's never going to pursaude D* to spend millions just to make you guys happy

Kansas Zephyr

11-15-07, 03:56 PM

BTW For you Tivo lovers, whats the point :beatdeadhorse:
To keep D* improving the interface/reliability, making former TiVo users stop complaining.

When we think it's as good, or better, we'll shut up. Heck, I'll stay mute, on this issue, when the simple act of recording series is just as reliable as the HR10-250.

That's the point.

badmonkey

11-15-07, 04:01 PM

I realize individuals have different experiences, but I just can't see how the experiences can be so different. In my case, my 3 HR10's were definitely far WORSE than my 3 HR20's. That's right... far LESS reliable. My HR20's have not had a single issue is 4+ months of use. Prior to the HR20's, my HR10's were missing recordings at a rate of at least 1 per week... EACH!

Just to clarify... I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I'm just surprised at the disparity between user experiences...

Kansas Zephyr

11-15-07, 04:06 PM

I realize individuals have different experiences, but I just can't see how the experiences can be so different.
You must be "snake-bit". Just read this board, and you can see for yourself how many HR20 v. HR10 issues, and their frequency, were/are reported.

badmonkey

11-15-07, 04:18 PM

You must be "snake-bit". Just read this board, and you can see for yourself how many HR20 v. HR10 issues, and their frequency, were/are reported.

Believe me... I've read the board. I'm just amazed at how different the experiences are. I wouldn't even consider going back to my HR10's. Even without all of the new HD!

For my purposed (and in my experience), The HR20 is a much more reliable, functional product than the HR10. Many others would claim just the opposite. That dichotomy is what is surprising to me.

Splendor

11-15-07, 04:31 PM

In a "hypothetical" situation where both could record the same... I'd look at the total capabilities. I wouldn't be happy with a situation as described by tooloud10, of course. My point is simply that the ability to receive the programming I want is significantly more important than user interface issues or peripheral capabilities.

We could bandy about hypotheticals, or we can focus on the content, which, I suspect, is the true determining factor when deciding what company is going to provide your television service.

The first company with an HD TiVo that has DLB will get my business.

highgeer

11-15-07, 04:45 PM

What feature are you using on the HR20 to get it to record something you didn't tell it to? I wasn't aware there was such a thing.

It's not a "suggestions" feature. It is an Autorecord that is in my Prioritizer list. I have an Autorecord for Denver Broncos/sports/football (I do not believe you can do a Series Link for live sporting events because the title of the program changes with each new game/opponent). For some reason, the Guide regularly seems to think the game starts at 2 AM on channel 76x (I assume one of the NFL Ticket package channels). Because the start time is 2 AM on 76x, instead of the actual start time on my local channel which is, say 11 AM, it starts that recording and records a black screen from 2 AM to 2 PM, rather then recording when I WANT it to record from 11 AM to 2 PM on the local channel.

So, the system knows I want to record any *new* (oh, wait, that's a bug too) episodes of Denver Broncos/sports/football, but it is too dumb to figure out that I don't actually get that channel and regularly overrides the manual recording that I set up on the local channel! With the TiVo, I was able to tell it which channels I receive and it would only record Denver Broncos/sports/football from channels that I receive. Frustrating.

BTW For you Tivo lovers, whats the point :beatdeadhorse:

The point is that I was mislead by the sales puke back in May that the HR20 had all the same functions as my DirecTiVo. It does not. It's better or worse is purely subjective opinion, but in my mind, the software for the TiVo is far superior. I would have dropped D* by now had it not been for their customer service, compared to my alternative, Comcrap. I think TiVo using Comcrap will be easier to use, but probably have as many bugs with picture and audio quality. And to take on a followup question that has been asked of others: "why haven't you left and gone back to your precious TiVo?" I was living with the bugs, but in September, when hockey and football started back up, I decided I'd give D* until the holiday specials to fix the bugs, or I'd find a TiVo on a holiday special and walk away.

Jeremy W

11-15-07, 05:01 PM

In case it escaped you, the HR10 is a DIRECTV branded device also.
It's DirecTV-branded, but we all know that DirecTV doesn't provide the software.

rynberg

11-15-07, 05:03 PM

Splendor

11-15-07, 05:55 PM

Maybe because I've never had a DVR before, but I don't get it. There is only one Broncos game a week, how hard is it to go through and manually set record on it? Is it really that big a deal to set up manual records for a few things every week?

If you only had to record one thing it may not be that hard. The reason it's so frustrating is because many of us were used to software that did what it was supposed to and didn't miss recordings on some shows and record the wrong episodes of others.

bidger

11-15-07, 06:02 PM

I am watching the holiday sales this year, and if I can get a TiVo HD S3 for less $300 or less (it is at $400 now for the top end model), I will be doing it and dropping D* for Comcrap, a cable company I despise.

Sorry, but talk is cheap. If there's a device I felt as strongly about as you say you feel about TiVo, a few hundred wouldn't keep me from it.

Seems to me you're playing it safe by setting a $300 or less price tag on the S3 because the likelihood of that top-end model going for that price, excluding closeout, is pretty slim.

There are a lot of "conditional" TiVo fans, they want TiVo on the condition that some other company brings it to them.

Jeremy W

11-15-07, 06:20 PM

There are a lot of "conditional" TiVo fans
I'll buy a Tivo as soon as they put the HR2x interface on one.

narrod

11-15-07, 06:28 PM

No...I didn't have any software issues with my HR10-250.

If there were any, they were transparent in my usage.

I wish I could say the same about the HR20s.

Again...the HR20 is faster and with more features. But, it should be a rock solid, pick it, and forget it, DVR first. I don't care if it's bad guide data, or not. The TiVo missed either none of the, or so few I've forgotten, series I wanted to record.

Well, you're fortunate. I had many more software problems with the HR10 than I've had with the HR20. I could live with either as long as the programmiing is the same. I would no sooner use a provider based solely on their hardware than I would buy a house based solely on who manufactured the windows for it.

bidger

11-15-07, 07:11 PM

I'll buy a Tivo as soon as they put the HR2x interface on one.

:lol:

Kansas Zephyr

11-15-07, 07:47 PM

I would no sooner use a provider based solely on their hardware than I would buy a house based solely on who manufactured the windows for it.
Neither would I.

For me, the performance of the basic "DVR duties" was superior with the HR10-250.

That's the only reason I'm not, yet, a complete HR20 "convert'. If it becomes as stable, then I will be quite satisfied.

rkreitl

11-15-07, 07:54 PM

Wait, you never had a single problem with some of the HR10 software upgrades?
Hard to believe.
Why is that so hard to believe? Many here, including EB, have stated they've never missed a recording or ever had a show start recording late on their HR20s. If that's true why would this be hard to believe?

rkreitl

11-15-07, 08:03 PM

I did not know this, a very cool Tip Thanks.

BTW For you Tivo lovers, whats the point :beatdeadhorse:
It's never going too happen so why waste time even talking about it. Just give it up and adapt, even if all 10 of you on this forum paid the extra $500 it's never going to pursaude D* to spend millions just to make you guys happy
Isn't this tired use of your dead horse smiley worse than folks talking about Tivo? If you don't like Tivo or talk of Tivo, why not just ignore the thread instead of :beatdeadhorse: by making yet another comment on how you think this topic is :beatdeadhorse:. You and your kind are getting real old...as in :icon_lame.

RobertE

11-15-07, 08:09 PM

Isn't this tired use of your dead horse smiley worse than folks talking about Tivo? If you don't like Tivo or talk of Tivo, why not just ignore the thread instead of :beatdeadhorse: by making yet another comment on how you think this topic is :beatdeadhorse:. You and your kind are getting real old...as in :icon_lame.

Pot meet Kettle. Kettle meet Pot.

The Tivo vs HR20 is old and tired on BOTH sides.

rkreitl

11-15-07, 08:22 PM

Pot meet Kettle. Kettle meet Pot.

The Tivo vs HR20 is old and tired on BOTH sides.
Agreed as is :beatdeadhorse:

I vote :beatdeadhorse: be removed from this board!

Earl Bonovich

11-15-07, 08:27 PM

Agreed as is :beatdeadhorse:

I vote :beatdeadhorse: be removed from this board!

Sorry... :beatdeadhorse: will not be removed from the board...

:backtotop

Milominderbinder2

11-15-07, 08:29 PM

What feature are you using on the HR20 to get it to record something you didn't tell it to?...Autorecord.

Autorecord is badly broken on the HR20.

TiVo allows you to use a Favorite Channel Channels I Get filter. If it is set up properly you only record the channels you get (and of those only the ones you really want).

- Craig

Kenkong586

11-15-07, 08:35 PM

imho the only thing tivo was rock solid for me that the hr20 is not is first run recordings. hr20 is always recording repeats.

allenn

11-15-07, 10:19 PM

I have to give up a great HD TIVO DVR for a crappy HR21 and pay a higher price of $14.95 to D* just for the privilege of receiving all the new HD channels. What a deal!:hurah:

kwsmithphoto

11-16-07, 02:16 AM

Again... are there enough people like you... that are willing to pay the elivated price and a possibly higher service fee... to offset the millions in development of a new system and the support/licensing for that system.

Why would it cost millions? All they gotta do is license the software just like they always did, and still do. The only millions it would "cost" was the development money blown on the HR20's which, judging by the constant stream of bug fixes and software upgrades, is something of an albatross on their neck right now.

People point out that the Tivo S3 doesn't do MPEG4. It wouldn't have to, it would simply have to record the output of the D* decoder just like it always did! No problem, no big investment, just a licensing fee to pay.

BTW, the Tivo-loving customers were apparently numerous enough that the two companies renewed their contract to support the "legacy" DVR's for a few more years. Remember, very few D* customers know or care about this forum or ones like it, but they certainly know the 800 number.

One could surmise that D* was forced into that renewal because of customer complaints, so they bought the extension to retain disgruntled customers as they struggle to improve their own DVR's. IOW, the views expressed here in favor of the HR20 are likely skewed quite a bit from their very much larger, less technical, less involved customer base.

What I don't understand is why DirecTV tried to re-invent the wheel instead of continuing what had previously been a seamless relationship (to the user). If Tivo jacked the software licensing and service fees up fine, seems like it would have been easier to amortize that over time instead of all the money they spent on the HR20 - and continue to spend - making it work.

A mistake, in other words, and in my opinion, but I suppose that's water under the bridge now. Fortunately my experience with the HR20 is a full year newer than most of yours, but I did look back in time here, and the v1 boxes were very much unloved, to say the least! Had I been around back then I probably would have bailed on D* after being one of the first million customers back in the 90's.

BTW, the only reason I found this board was to try and figure out how to use this DVR I still don't like, and see if I was the only one having problems with it. I wasn't. The info found helped with the transition (thanks to all who provided it) but it didn't make the DVR itself any more reliable!

FWIW, there are so many things that still need fixing that things like DoD, while nice, should take a back seat to basic functionality and improving the UI. I know they're working on it but the persistence of similar problems over so much time and so many firmware updates suggests to me a basic, hardware-level problem with the basic design. Oh well.

Jgpercy

11-16-07, 06:37 AM

Wow!! I can't believe I am actually hearing people say how great the HR10 is. When I was looking to get into HD on D*, I was looking at the posts on TiVo Community and couldn't believe how big a piece of junk that box was. Many, Many complaints from people about missing recordings, locking up. I find it hard to believe what people are saying about it now since it is obsolete as far as D* goes. And the software for that box was written by Tivo. I used to have a SD TiVo and enjoyed it, but it was slow as all heck, and it recorded at times second runs when it wasn't supposed to. Not every thing TiVo is as perfect as some of you portray it as. I think some of you need to take the blinders off, and realize that if it wasn't for D*, TiVo wouldn't exist as a company today. Just my .02

Rockermann

11-16-07, 07:46 AM

Wow!! I can't believe I am actually hearing people say how great the HR10 is. When I was looking to get into HD on D*, I was looking at the posts on TiVo Community and couldn't believe how big a piece of junk that box was. Many, Many complaints from people about missing recordings, locking up...

There was a point, due to one incremental software update, where a lot of these problems did happen, to a lot of users. However, it was short lived as a subsequent software update fixed most, if not all of the issues. My HR10 worked flawlessly after said update. And I consider my DVR usage to be be above the average (lot of SPs, HD and sporting events).

Redlinetire

11-16-07, 08:21 AM

I have to give up a great HD TIVO DVR for a crappy HR21 and pay a higher price of $14.95 to D* just for the privilege of receiving all the new HD channels. What a deal!:hurah:

Just be glad you didn't buy a Tivo S3. The new 9.2 release is breaking HDMI for some people EVERY TIME THEY CHANGE THE CHANNEL:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=374599

How would you like to have to turn off your TV every time you change the channel just to get HDMI to handshake again?
But Tivo says they'll fix it in the next release. :rolleyes:

Tivo is not the holy grail of DVRs...

highgeer

11-16-07, 08:51 AM

Maybe because I've never had a DVR before, but I don't get it. There is only one Broncos game a week, how hard is it to go through and manually set record on it? Is it really that big a deal to set up manual records for a few things every week?

I guess I got spoiled with my TiVo that I didn't have to set it up every week. :sure: And, yes, it does get a bit painful having to set up recordings manually every week. I already stated I have television for the sake of watching sports, which gets pretty painful to setup each and every week. Hockey games for my team are anywhere from 2 to 5 times per week. Soccer games can be as many as three per week (there are many different leagues and teams). Basketball about the same as hockey at 2 to 5 per week. Baseball is as much as seven games a week! So, it's not just the one Broncos football game once a week that causes the heart ache. :nono:

Sorry, but talk is cheap. If there's a device I felt as strongly about as you say you feel about TiVo, a few hundred wouldn't keep me from it.

Ok, I probably should have said, I figured I had tolerated the bugs through September and was ready to move to TiVo at that point, but I figured I could put up with the bugs until the holiday sales and save myself a hundred bucks. :) Also, I don't take leaving D* for Comcrap lightly - I truly swore off Comcrap when I joined D* back in 2001 because Comcrap had such horrible, horrible customer service when you did have to call them. But, I've seen some proof that Comcrap is improving in that area.

So, marginal DVR daily, or marginal customer service occassionally?

mikek

11-16-07, 09:24 AM

Can't you buy a Tivo and hook a Directv receiver to it?

-mk

Jon J

11-16-07, 09:30 AM

However, it was short lived as a subsequent software update fixed most, if not all of the issues.May have fixed them for most users...but not me. :(

1sweetchevy

11-16-07, 10:00 AM

Dual Live buffers isn't a Tivo patent.

That doesn't answer my question.
If they're not a TiVo patent, there is no excuse for the lack of this functionality.

allenn

11-16-07, 10:04 AM

......Tivo is not the holy grail of DVRs...

TIVO is for me. More intuitive and knows the programs I like. To each his own!

Redlinetire

11-16-07, 10:12 AM

TIVO is for me. More intuitive and knows the programs I like. To each his own!

Agreed.

And I prefer to change channels without having to shut off the TV. ;)

Splendor

11-16-07, 10:35 AM

Can't you buy a Tivo and hook a Directv receiver to it?

-mk

Nope.

Earl Bonovich

11-16-07, 10:36 AM

Nope.

Sure you can.

You can buy any of the Series 1 and Series 2 units.
And hookup a DirecTV receiver to it.

It will only capture SD material though.

bonscott87

11-16-07, 12:23 PM

That doesn't answer my question.
If they're not a TiVo patent, there is no excuse for the lack of this functionality.

I would direct you to the 60+ page thread about DLB at the top of this very forum.

tonyd79

11-16-07, 12:40 PM

I guess I got spoiled with my TiVo that I didn't have to set it up every week. :sure: And, yes, it does get a bit painful having to set up recordings manually every week. I already stated I have television for the sake of watching sports, which gets pretty painful to setup each and every week. Hockey games for my team are anywhere from 2 to 5 times per week. Soccer games can be as many as three per week (there are many different leagues and teams). Basketball about the same as hockey at 2 to 5 per week. Baseball is as much as seven games a week! So, it's not just the one Broncos football game once a week that causes the heart ache. :nono:

You managed to get your Tivo to do games properly without interaction? I never have been able to do that. Heck, I review my DVR on a weekly basis (including the Tivos) because even though they all have management conflict systems (well not the cable POS), none of them actively tell you about the problem. You still have to review todo lists or histories and make adjustments.

DVRs generally and Tivo and the HR20 specifically are wonderful boxes but to just let them run without supervision is impossible. They save me enough time in watching and recording (no tapes, etc.) that the couple minutes once a week or so is worth it.

RobertE

11-16-07, 12:46 PM

IMHO counting on a DVR, any DVR, to record a sporting event is a lost cause. Why? You always stand a really good chance of overtime, extra innings, laps, weather delays, etc. When I do a sports recording, it is always a manual one for a sizeable amount of time. I do this now with my HR20/21s, did it with my Tivos, hell, even did it with my VCR. Used the whole tape just in case.

Stuart Sweet

11-16-07, 12:51 PM

That must have been some sporting event to run out a 6 hour tape, RobertE.

RobertE

11-16-07, 12:53 PM

That must have been some sporting event to run out a 6 hour tape, RobertE.

Auto races. Factor in a 2-3 hour rain delay or a wreck fest and you can use every minute of the 6 hour tape. Thats why I had a couple of the T-180s (8 hr) :grin:

Jeremy W

11-16-07, 01:02 PM

People point out that the Tivo S3 doesn't do MPEG4. It wouldn't have to, it would simply have to record the output of the D* decoder just like it always did!
That's fine, but if it couldn't do MPEG4, how exactly would it play back what it recorded? There is no magical "DirecTV decoder" in the receivers.

Stuart Sweet

11-16-07, 01:50 PM

Technically, if you could record the stream from the component output it would be reencoded at the Tivo, no?

Splendor

11-16-07, 01:51 PM

Sure you can.

You can buy any of the Series 1 and Series 2 units.
And hookup a DirecTV receiver to it.

It will only capture SD material though.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. You can't use a standalone HD TiVo with D*.

Jeremy W

11-16-07, 01:52 PM

Technically, if you could record the stream from the component output it would be reencoded at the Tivo, no?
Yes, but Tivo can't record from the component output.

highgeer

11-16-07, 10:58 PM

You managed to get your Tivo to do games properly without interaction?

Wow. Actually, yes, I have been very successful in getting both my DirecTiVos to record sporting programs without manually setting them up or adjusting them. From a couple of the comments, I may be the exception?

A few things that I did on my TiVo to make it work: always put the full name of the team in the search and record feature. For instance, Denver Broncos (not just Broncos). Always select the next level of detail. For instance, sports -> football. Finally, to account for overtime, shootout, extra innings, weather delays, and whatnot, I set the search and record to record at least an extra hour. For playoff games, I set it for the maximum (especially useful in hockey and baseball).

If I could just get the HR20 to only record channels I receive, I would be so much a happier camper. I could probably live with it accidentally recording rerun games! But when it tries to record my game on a channel I don't get and/or doesn't record on the channel I do get... :mad:

ebockelman

11-17-07, 04:46 AM

Just be glad you didn't buy a Tivo S3. The new 9.2 release is breaking HDMI for some people EVERY TIME THEY CHANGE THE CHANNEL:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=374599

How would you like to have to turn off your TV every time you change the channel just to get HDMI to handshake again?
But Tivo says they'll fix it in the next release. :rolleyes:

You lose credibility with your argument when you take an isolated case and make it appear to apply to all users. The HDMI issue with 9.2 is not that widespread.

I would be careful about throwing stones when you live in the glass house that is the HR20. Have you not seen some of the HDMI issues this DVR has gone through as it's evolved?

bonscott87

11-17-07, 08:07 AM

If I could just get the HR20 to only record channels I receive, I would be so much a happier camper. I could probably live with it accidentally recording rerun games! But when it tries to record my game on a channel I don't get and/or doesn't record on the channel I do get... :mad:

This is a problem and is in a slow rollout. You may not be aware but it's not an actual problem with the HR20. DirecTV has to change the data stream to make CIR (channels I receive) work and by doing so they break older receivers. Funny how in recent months even the Ultimate TV receivers got an update after nearly 4 years. ;)

So now they are starting to roll out CIR. So hopefully soon this problem will go away.

As for autorecord sports, it would never work for me on a Tivo either using a wishlist. The biggest problem was I couldn't tell it to specify a particular channel. It would just record whatever channel it wanted to, usually the lowest channel number. So it might choose to record a hockey game off ESPN instead of my RSN. Or it would record it off a different RSN instead of mine and thus I'd get 3 hours of blank recording because the game would be blacked out on that RSN (gee, sound familiar? ;) )

Anyway, so I just used the wishlist on the Tivo as a manual search. Once a week or two I'd just go in and manually set to record all the games and on the proper channels I wanted. I do exactly the same thing on the HR20 now except it's much, much faster. So I have a saved search for "Red Wings | Sports | Hockey" and I just load it up every couple weeks and set the recording manually (which is faster on the HR20).

So at least for me I lost nothing in terms of sports recording going to the HR20 and gained in that setting up a recording is faster. YMMV of course.

Redlinetire

11-17-07, 08:39 AM

You lose credibility with your argument when you take an isolated case and make it appear to apply to all users. The HDMI issue with 9.2 is not that widespread.

I would be careful about throwing stones when you live in the glass house that is the HR20. Have you not seen some of the HDMI issues this DVR has gone through as it's evolved?

I made no claim to extent, hence the phrase 'some people.'
But I guess you can read into that what you will. :rolleyes:

I was merely pointing out to the Tivo fanatics that Tivo, is in fact, far from perfect.
There are a lot of complaints on tivocommunity.com about the poor performance of the HDs and S3s (i.e. pixellation, freezing, etc.), people having to return them, Tivos broken straight out of the box, etc. etc. just as there are lot of the same complaints on here about the HR20 and it's performance. That's real users, real Tivo users, complaining about the performance of a box they pay more for and pay more per month for.

And they want to add that crappy technology to the HR20? No thanks...

kwsmithphoto

11-21-07, 12:24 PM

That's fine, but if it couldn't do MPEG4, how exactly would it play back what it recorded? There is no magical "DirecTV decoder" in the receivers.

Sure there is, that's all they were - a Tivo chipset (basically a pc with an embedded x86 Intel chip, a generic video output daughter card, generic IDE interface, ethernet, etc), with a DirecTV decoder replacing the analog input stage, running a modified version of the Linux-based Tivo OS.

Continuing that relationship would have been relatively trivial - some updates to the hardware (replace the D* decoder and add HDMI), a simple mod to the software to recognize and write it's metadata to the MPEG4 codec and poof, an MPEG4 DirecTivo could have been born in a hearbeat.

The hurdle was financial, not technical. D* looked at the long term cost of continuing the increasing cost of maintaining their relationship with Tivo vs. the cost of developing their own DVR from scratch. They made a decision that seemed to be in their best interests, if not their customer's. An arguable point perhaps, since many seem happy with the HR20...now that it more or less works...but nobody knows what the cost of developing it was and continues to be.

Combined with the increased technical support from the first buggy units, and customer retainment costs incurred by that and problematic installs and high equipment failure rates, well, only D* knows if it was worth it.

Personally, I suspect that in my case, it was a losing proposition. The first HR20 they showed up with was DOA, then the second one started having problems. There's 2 service calls and 2 failed units right there. Taking my numerous phone calls and giving me a $120 credit wasn't cheap either.

Contrast that to my standard-def RCA DirecTivo's, which once installed worked perfectly for 3 years. The hard drive on one of them failed recently but I chose to repair it myself instead getting a free SD DVR (R15?), specifically to appease my fiancee who loathes the HR20 in the living room.

jwd45244

11-21-07, 01:32 PM

The hurdle was financial, not technical. D* looked at the long term cost of continuing the increasing cost of maintaining their relationship with Tivo vs. the cost of developing their own DVR from scratch. They made a decision that seemed to be in their best interests, if not their customer's. An arguable point perhaps, since many seem happy with the HR20...now that it more or less works...but nobody knows what the cost of developing it was and continues to be.

Just to make sure the facts are correct, Tivo wanted out also. It was not just about DirecTV wanting out.

Jeremy W

11-21-07, 06:34 PM

The hurdle was financial, not technical.
The technical hurdle, while nowhere near insurmountable, is much bigger than you seem to think it is. Tivo has no experience with MPEG4, everything they've done including the Series 3 has been MPEG2. MPEG4 is a whole new ballgame.

kwsmithphoto

11-21-07, 08:59 PM

Really? I thought it was DirecTV's response to Tivo raising their license fee (quite a bit). Maybe that was Tivo's way of saying they wanted out, though it didn't stop them from cutting a deal with Comcast...nor did it stop D* from renewing the contract to support legacy DirecTivo's.

I can't explain why anyone who makes stuff like this would have any trouble with MPEG4, or why Tivo doesn't use it in the Series 3. A friend who deals with it every day says it isn't all that different than MPEG2 just better, more efficient, and has more features that can be used or ignored. Heck, any Blu-Ray DVD player (and the HR20) can deal with either format, why couldn't Tivo figure it out? Tivo isn't exactly lacking in experience with compression codecs.