Recommendation for new home installation

[cdhutch]

Hello,
Thank you to everyone for all of the informative posts. I am in the process of building a new home, where I get to design the wiring layout. I currently have 3 DTivo's (1 x Series 1, 1 x Series 2, 1 x HD10-250) which I have connected to a 3 LNB dish /OTA antenna via a 5x8 Multiswitch. Each DTivo has 2 RG-6 lines going to it (with 2 spare ports on the multiswitch). I diplex the OTA signal to my HDTiVo.

I'd like to upgrade/augment with a D20 MPEG-4 DVR / 5LNB dish when I move to the new house. Can anyone recommend a cable architecture that will maintain the 2-line connection to each of the legacy DTiVo's for dual-tuner ops while allowing the addition of a D20 w/ OTA functionality? Is it as simple as running the 4 satellite dish lines to a 6x8 multiswitch (like a WB68), with a BBC on lines going to an MPEG-4 receiver, and then running a separate OTA line to the HD10-250 and HD20 receivers? Is there a good splitter / amp that someone can recommend for splitting the OTA signal 4 ways?

Thank you for your patience and help!

Craig

[rambrush]

Hopefully you are dropping extra cables down all walls, they make a multi wire like these that make life easier at times.
http://www.hometech.com/techwire/combo.html#BE-7914S

[DirecTV3049]

Hello,
Thank you to everyone for all of the informative posts. I am in the process of building a new home, where I get to design the wiring layout. I currently have 3 DTivo's (1 x Series 1, 1 x Series 2, 1 x HD10-250) which I have connected to a 3 LNB dish /OTA antenna via a 5x8 Multiswitch. Each DTivo has 2 RG-6 lines going to it (with 2 spare ports on the multiswitch). I diplex the OTA signal to my HDTiVo.

I'd like to upgrade/augment with a D20 MPEG-4 DVR / 5LNB dish when I move to the new house. Can anyone recommend a cable architecture that will maintain the 2-line connection to each of the legacy DTiVo's for dual-tuner ops while allowing the addition of a D20 w/ OTA functionality? Is it as simple as running the 4 satellite dish lines to a 6x8 multiswitch (like a WB68), with a BBC on lines going to an MPEG-4 receiver, and then running a separate OTA line to the HD10-250 and HD20 receivers? Is there a good splitter / amp that someone can recommend for splitting the OTA signal 4 ways?

Thank you for your patience and help!

Craig

You're on the right track.

The 5lnb satellite dish will have 4 lines of RG6 cable coming off of it.

Connect those 4 lines to a Zinwell WB68 multi-switch (it MUST be this particular Zinwell switch, NOT "like a 6x8 switch").

Out of the Zinwell WB68 you'll run:

A. 2 lines of RG6 to each of your Tivo units and to your (future) HR20 (this is the DirecTV designation for the HD DVR series - not, as you've listed it, "D20").

B. On the 2 lines of RG6 that you run to the HR20, you will install the BBC's.

You cannot diplex your OTA through the Zinwell WB68 multi-switch (not sure you'd have any room anyway - since it's not clear whether you end up with 3 or 4 recording units in your new home), so "yes" I'd run separate cables to each place you want to have an OTA line.

[Aside:This is the point in life where having a Single Wire Multi-Switch would come in handy, but you may not live in an area where this is available]

In addition to all of the above, I'd run 2 or 3 lines of network/telephone line (either Cat5e (available at Home Depot/Lowes or Cat 6 - if you can find and afford it) to each receiver location. One network/telephone line for PPVs ordering and one or two network/telephone line(s) to use as a wired ethernet.

The ethernet line you could connect to your computer to utilize the H20's media sharing capabilities - watch photos from your PC on your new 50" Plasma!!

(note: you could go wireless between your PC and the HR20 for it's media sharing capabilities.)

An ethernet line could also be used to connect to another (future) HR(20) - that way when DirecTV activates "multi-room viewing" (watch a movie recorded on the HR20 in the living room on the HR20 in your bedroom with a push of a button!!), you'll be set.

(note: you probably CANNOT go wireless between two HR20s for the "multi-room" viewing. Pumping an HD movie from one HR20 to another HR20 over a wireless connection is extremely difficult (if not impossible right now) because the HD just eats bandwith. )

So - at the end of the day - at each receiver/dvr location you have 3 RG lines (2 DirecTV and 1 OTA) and 2 or 3 Cat5e/Cat6 lines. That's a LOT of cabling, but it gives you the maximum flexibility with the current easily available technology.

DirecTV3049

[DirecTV3049]

As an addendum to the above (and a bit Off-Topic):

One line of Cat5e or Cat6 line can be used as BOTH a telephone line and an ethernet line. This is because Cat5e/Cat6 has eight wires inside (4 pairs). Two wires - blue and white - are used for the telephone. The ethernet line would use the remaining six wires. This would reduce the number of Cat 5e/Cat6 runs to each location.

[carl6]

All of the RG6 should be solid copper center conductor (as opposed to the more common copper clad steel).

Carl

[cdhutch]

As an addendum to the above (and a bit Off-Topic):

One line of Cat5e or Cat6 line can be used as BOTH a telephone line and an ethernet line. This is because Cat5e/Cat6 has eight wires inside (4 pairs). Two wires - blue and white - are used for the telephone. The ethernet line would use the remaining six wires. This would reduce the number of Cat 5e/Cat6 runs to each location.

Thank you for the great information!

[jwd45244]

As an addendum to the above (and a bit Off-Topic):

One line of Cat5e or Cat6 line can be used as BOTH a telephone line and an ethernet line. This is because Cat5e/Cat6 has eight wires inside (4 pairs). Two wires - blue and white - are used for the telephone. The ethernet line would use the remaining six wires. This would reduce the number of Cat 5e/Cat6 runs to each location.

No, you should not do that at all. It is true there are unused pairs. They are there to minimize cross-talk. I am curious as to why you would recommend running a separate RG6 for OTA since you say you can't diplex it (which BTW, you can) but you won't recommend pulling a second piece of phone wire. Trust me, putting both phone and network in on the same piece of Cat5 is a very bad idea.

[Richard Chalk]

Thank you for the great information!

I am in a similar situation, and was able to run conduits from each probable location of a TV to the basement, and also one from the basement to the attic. Since the equipment changes frequently, and the cabling requirements may change as well, I did not want to be locked into any specific configuration.

This way, I can run Satellite TV cables from the dish into the attic, and then through the conduit to the basement. In my case, the 3 DVRs will all be in the basement, with a switcher to direct any one to a specific TV. The switched outputs then can run up the conduits to the TVs. Swapping, for example, HDMI cables for the Component Video I now need will be simple.

I strongly suggest you consider this approach if possible.

[DirecTV3049]

Thank you for the great information!

You're welcome. BTW, using a single run of Cat5e/Cat6 for both ethernet and telephone is a solution that works best if your computer/router and telephone block (the place where the outside telephone line comes into your house and then splits off to the extensions) are located close together . . . like in a cental media/communications box or closet. That way the amount of "outer covering" of the Cat5e/Cat 6 you have to stip back to get to the wires (to make the right connections) is manageable (a foot or two).

You don't want to have to strip 10 feet or more of the "outer covering" back to run 2 wires to your "telephone block" one side of the house and the remaining 6 wires to your planned computer/router location on the other side of the house. If that's the case, make 2 separate runs of Cat5e/Cat6 cable (1 to the telephone block; 1 to the computer/router).

Depending upon how your new house is being built (a custom build or a builder/subdivision type thing), you may not have choice on where the telephone installer places the internal distribution block - often they just do it very close to where they punch through from the outside telephone box - because they're doing 2 or 3 houses in the subdivision at a time and it's mass install over quality. If custom, you can often specify a specific point - like a closet or media/communications distribution panel/box, then that's best.

According to the Cutting Edge forum, a telephone line may not be needed in the future to order PPVs - if you have an internet connection and HR20 receivers. Apparently, there is beta testing for DirecTV using the internet/ethernet connections as the upload method for PPV information stored on the HR20s. But for now, if it were me, I'd plan on installing at least one phone line and one ethernet connection for each receiver location.

DirecTV3049

[DirecTV3049]

Conduit for cable runs is a good idea, BUT be careful. In some jurisdictions you may have to install a fireblock around any pipe/conduit that penetrates from one level of the house to the next (e.g. basement to first floor). The same is not true of just plain wiring/cabling that penetrates from one floor to the next. Don't ask me why. The "fireblock" isn't particularly complicated - just metal flashing cut to fill the gap between the pipe/conduit and the flooring/ceiling you've cut through, but it's something to keep in mind or ask your builder (or building inspector) about.

[BkwSoft]

No, you should not do that at all. It is true there are unused pairs. They are there to minimize cross-talk. I am curious as to why you would recommend running a separate RG6 for OTA since you say you can't diplex it (which BTW, you can) but you won't recommend pulling a second piece of phone wire. Trust me, putting both phone and network in on the same piece of Cat5 is a very bad idea.

I agree that it is a very bad idea to use the same cable for both ethernet and phone. While it is true that the currently common 10BaseT and 100BaseT ethernet pinouts use only two pairs, 1000BaseT will use all four.

That is not even mentioning what is happining to your eithernet pairs when you phone is ringing with 70-90VAC in the same wire bundle.

[DirecTV3049]

I agree that it is a very bad idea to use the same cable for both ethernet and phone. While it is true that the currently common 10BaseT and 100BaseT ethernet pinouts use only two pairs, 1000BaseT will use all four.

That is not even mentioning what is happining to your eithernet pairs when you phone is ringing with 70-90VAC in the same wire bundle.

Well, I trust nobody because I've done it with no ill effects.

If you've actually done it and had problems . . . well, all I can tell you your mileage varies from mine. And, yep, it's 10/100 (I should have mentioned that). I did mention it as an "addendum" because it's not my preferred method - it was more an afterthought.

With regard to the separate RG6 for OTA, I assume he wants OTA to all of his receivers - those using BBCs and those not using BBCs. My understanding - and since I don't personally diplex an OTA - is that you have to diplex OTA something like this:

Antennas >Zinwell WB68>BBC>OTA diplexers>receiver OTA in.

A solution that works fine if you have only H20/HR20 equipment - because they use the BBCs.

If he has older non-HD receivers with no BBCs connected to his Zinwell, it's my understanding that those receivers cannot get a diplexed OTA (from the Zinwell). If that's incorrect - well you learn something new every day.

DirecTV3049

[carl6]

First, with regard to mixing voice and data in the same wire bundle (Cat 5e/6), yes you can get away with it, no it isn't the right way to do things, and yes, you can certainly have problems with degraded network performance by doing so.



Antennas >Zinwell WB68>BBC>OTA diplexers>receiver OTA in.

A solution that works fine if you have only H20/HR20 equipment - because they use the BBCs.

If he has older non-HD receivers with no BBCs connected to his Zinwell, it's my understanding that those receivers cannot get a diplexed OTA (from the Zinwell). If that's incorrect - well you learn something new every day.

DirecTV3049

First, with BBC, the wiring would be:
Dish->WB68->BBC->Diplexer->coax->diplexer->receiver with the OTA from antenna being inserted into the first diplexer (not going into the WB68).

In the case of older receivers with no BBCs, you should be able to diplex after the WB68 anyway, as the older receiver would never request one of the Ka Low channel groups, theoretically the conflicting frequencies would never be on that line, and the diplexer would cut it off anyway (which wouldn't matter). So the solution for an older receiver would be:

Dish->WB68->diplexer->coax->diplexer->receiver, again with the OTA from antenna being inserted into the first diplexer.

Carl

[DirecTV3049]

First, with regard to mixing voice and data in the same wire bundle (Cat 5e/6), yes you can get away with it, no it isn't the right way to do things, and yes, you can certainly have problems with degraded network performance by doing so.

If it works - and it's not illegal, immoral, or fattening - I'm not inclined to say it's the "wrong way.":) I do agree it's not option # 1. I would agree that option #1 would be to run multiple lines of Cat 5e. The potential for a problem exists if you use one line, but it's not a guarantee. In a business with lots of telephone traffic, it's probably not gonna work - but in a residential setting with low land line useage (cell phone is primary with just basic land line telephone service), it's A solution.


First, with BBC, the wiring would be:
Dish->WB68->BBC->Diplexer->coax->diplexer->receiver with the OTA from antenna being inserted into the first diplexer (not going into the WB68).

In the case of older receivers with no BBCs, you should be able to diplex after the WB68 anyway, as the older receiver would never request one of the Ka Low channel groups, theoretically the conflicting frequencies would never be on that line, and the diplexer would cut it off anyway (which wouldn't matter). So the solution for an older receiver would be:

Dish->WB68->diplexer->coax->diplexer->receiver, again with the OTA from antenna being inserted into the first diplexer.

Carl

Well, see, I have learned something new.

In light of that, my "advice" to the OP would be:

1. 5 lines of RG6 from the outside to an inside distribution point - (that's 4 lines of RG6 for the dish to the Zinwell WB68 runs; plus 1 additional RG6 for an outside OTA antenna). If the OTA is used, diplex the OTA as diagramed above in Carl's post

2. 2 lines of RG6 to the existing planned TIVO locations and the planned (future) HR20.

3. 2 lines Cat 5e to each location (one for telephone line; one for ethernet). It appears online uploading of PPV movies may be coming soon. If so, having a telephone line near the receiver won't be necessary . . . but you can always "convert" that "extra" telephone line into a ethernet line at a later date.

And, sheesh, no one chimed in about running fiber optic . . .;)

[harsh]

I'd like to upgrade/augment with a D20 MPEG-4 DVR / 5LNB dish when I move to the new house.You might not want to wait too long to get your HR20. There's a chance that you'll get stuck with and HR21 that does not have OTA tuners in it.

[harsh]

And, sheesh, no one chimed in about running fiber optic . . .;)When you find an inexpensive solution to get fiber to do anything practical, let me know.

[man_rob]

You might not want to wait too long to get your HR20. There's a chance that you'll get stuck with and HR21 that does not have OTA tuners in it.

But external tuners are coming in the next few months.

[hokie93]

How much cable can they run for free?

[techrep]

How much cable can they run for free?

100 feet or so but "dead presidents" can be very persuasive.