For those fed up with Sync Issues

[omj]

I have decided to start a thread concerning that lack of effort to fix the sync issues. I have complained to directv several times only to be pushed aside. So, starting today I have emailed and complained about the programing last night that was out. I am going to continue to email them and call everytime I experience this problem. I will post my emails and responses. I encourage those of you that have been paying for HD service and tired of feeling like you are watching Kung-Fu movies to do the same.

My first email:

Details: I have had HD for months now. I constantly have problems with the sound matching the actions. I have had this problem before and made calls concerning it. It gets out of sync one day then it corrects for a day and then it messes up again. I am finally emailing so I have a written record of my problems. Last night USA network was out of sync bad. I have tried resetting the box with no luck. I have read on the directv forums that lots of other people have the same problem. I am paying for this
service and it doesn't work properly yet I am in a contract to keep it. Is there a clause that I can cancel if the service is terrible? I am going to continue to send emails every time I have issues with the audio. I have tried the troubleshooting. I don't want the same song and dance about having surround sound either. It is still off when the sound comes directly through the tv. I hope that someone gets in touch with me concerning this issue and makes this right. I am sure there will be more emails to
come since this problem happens constantly.


Response:

Thanks for writing. I see that you have been with us for quite a while. We do want to let you know that we appreciate your loyalty and your business.

However, I'm sorry to hear you are constantly having audio problems with your HD receiver and you have already tried resetting it. If resetting the receiver doesn't fix the problem, you may find some additional help at directv.com/troubleshooting. Otherwise, please call our technical support center at 1-800-531-5000 and select the option for technical assistance. Our Technical Support agents are trained to walk you through a number of troubleshooting steps which are too difficult to try to talk through over email. Also, you may find some helpful information at the DIRECTV Technical Help forums. Just visit http://forums.directv.com/pe/index.jsp to find answers to your questions.

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.

Sincerely,


I sent another reply asking about my original question concerning the contract having a clause about being able to cancel when the service I am paying for is not working properly.

[omj]

I have now received an email with a phone number and a special pin to call them withing the next 5 days to discuss my problem. I will have to check this evening and see which channels are messed up.

Nobody has posted any reply's on here. I feel like directv is the soup Nazi. Don't say anything bad about directv or "No soup for you".

[clevfandad]

Actually I posted in a different thread in "cutting edge" complaining about D*s lack of effort to resolve al their audio issues such as lip synch and dropouts. Seems like they are not concerned about these constant irritaions to customers.

[lifelong]

I applaud your efforts. Please keep the thread updated with the latest.

[Carl Spock]

I hope you get satisfaction and your problem solved. :)

[say-what]

Don't know what to say other than I didn't watch the USA channel last night and haven't had any lipsync issues in ages other than one problem with a local channel that was an issue with their feed to DirecTV (it happened on the OTA also).

[frogg]

This is an ongoing problem that even occurs on Toshiba LCD using the TV speakers through HDMI. Of course, it's worse through my surround system where the sound is going direct from the DirecTV receiver via toslink to the Yamaha surround receiver. It's worse at times, even to the point of almost unwatchable. Other times, all channels seem to be just fine. DirecTV is either unwilling or unable to fix it, as it has been years now, and very little progress. DirecTV also has a problem with closed captioning glitches, out-of-sync, garbling, etc., and this they also seem to just ignore. Lots of HD, though, I have to admit. So guess I'll stay awhile longer.

[JeffBowser]

I wouldn't say they ignore it. Closed Captioning has gotten significantly better since the new bird has settled in, and lip sync to me has come and gone, and seems mostly a recent phenomena with the new MPEG4 channels. Not all the sync is strictly DirecTV's fault, as other threads up here have pointed out. Still, be nice if we didn't have to complain about this at all, and it just worked.

[lifelong]

Hopefully your diligence in interacting with DirecTV, even if it doesn't yield results, will provide more information on the problem. It's better than people just saying "damn lip sync!" with no solutions or even reasons for the problem that follow.

[omj]

I am going to try and call tonight sometime. I am kind of busy this evening so I may not post results until Wednesday morning.

[1948GG]

Nowhere in your message(s), and in only one response, is HOW you have your system/display wired.

The 'effect' you are talking about is a dead giveaway as an HDMI problem; but again, you don't 'say' what you're using. HDMI is an extremely poor interface, with so many problems interfacing device-to-device, that unless you say up front what devices you have, what 'version' of HDMI each one has (there are over 6 different types), that any way of figuring things out is about ZERO.

If utilizing basic troubleshooting techniques, you can't seem to get the interface to 'settle down', you may need to punt; that is, toss the HDMI and go component with audio cables. Most HDMI systems I've come in contact with, with the audio problems, I've been able to get to settle down (and new s/w downloads from DirecTV have helped somewhat in the worst situations).

But that doesn't mean that the devices still won't 'slip' out of sync every once in a while; usually, turning either or all devices off/on will 'reset' the bitstream and get things back working again. But there are know BAD display devices, and integrated amplifiers/switchers, that have a bad rep of 'not playing nice' with others on the HDMI chain.

[turbrodude]

Just for another data point - I have found that the problem is with the MPEG4 feed. It is definilty a DirecTV problem. Its not our home equipment and its not the broadcast stations.

Next time you notice sync problems with HD broadcast networks, change channels to the old MPEG2 HD channels and you'll notice that the sync is perfect there. This proves its all DirecTV and they need to fix it.

[shendley]

Good luck with your efforts and I look forward to hearing what sort of response you get. I haven't seen many lip synch problems lately myself . . . which, of course, doesn't mean it's not there since I may simply be watching the 'wrong' show. Happily, the last lip synch problem I saw was on a football game where it hardly matters since you can't see the announcers that much. I can't remember if it was mpeg2 or 4, though.

[n3ntj]

I think many of us have had audio/video sync issues. Lately, I haven't noticed the problem that much, but it seems to come and go. It was bad in October, got better for a few weeks, and then was really bad in November. No idea if D* is aware of the problem and is working to fix it.

OMJ - do you see the problem most often on the new HD channels (from D10)? This is how I would characterize the channels I had noticed this problem on. I would expect, since it was only D10 channels, maybe an MPEG-4 encoding/decoding issue. I didn't have this issue on the local HD channels (which are not on D10).

[Redlinetire]

Just for another data point - I have found that the problem is with the MPEG4 feed. It is definilty a DirecTV problem. Its not our home equipment and its not the broadcast stations.

Next time you notice sync problems with HD broadcast networks, change channels to the old MPEG2 HD channels and you'll notice that the sync is perfect there. This proves its all DirecTV and they need to fix it.


Except it's also reported by our friends with Dish Network.
And Fios.
And Cable.

Also there's a very long and angry thread about the same problem over at tivocommunity.com, complaining that the TivoHD has horrible audio sync problems.

So it's an industry problem. DirecTV needs to do what it can for those of us with the issue. But every provider is struggling with this.

[ShapeGSX]

Mythbusters in HD "exploding port-a-potty" started out with horrible lip sync. But the commercials were dead-on.

Then sometime in the middle of the show, the audio sync ended up better than the start. I think that the problem is probably at the broadcaster's end. But it should be fixed, regardless.

[anthony06]

Except it's also reported by our friends with Dish Network.
And Fios.
And Cable.

Also there's a very long and angry thread about the same problem over at tivocommunity.com, complaining that the TivoHD has horrible audio sync problems.

So it's an industry problem. DirecTV needs to do what it can for those of us with the issue. But every provider is struggling with this.
Plus complaints from HDDVD users.

[hasan]

Except it's also reported by our friends with Dish Network.
And Fios.
And Cable.

Also there's a very long and angry thread about the same problem over at tivocommunity.com, complaining that the TivoHD has horrible audio sync problems.

So it's an industry problem. DirecTV needs to do what it can for those of us with the issue. But every provider is struggling with this.

You are absolutely correct. Anyone trying to define this as only a D* problem just doesn't understand how early we are in the HD TV world. D* has to work on what they can, but the problem is much bigger than D* or any particular receiver.

Whether we recognize it or not, when it comes to HD, we are all early adopters and will be fighting these kinds of problems for years to come.

This doesn't mean there aren't problems. This doesn't mean that some are not in the control of D*. This doesn't mean that none are a result of HR2x series receivers. It does mean, it is a very widespread and multi-factored problem, that we are going to have to patiently work through.

The other choice is to make ourselves (and as many others as we can get to jump on the bandwagon) miserable.

Test > Feedback > Modify > Retest > Feedback > Modify > Return to Step 1.:)

[ShapeGSX]

While audio sync with digital video is an industry wide issue, this issue that has been plaguing DirecTV is not due to any equipment at the user's end. It is definitely a broadcasting issue. Not sure if it is at DirecTV or at the network, though.

[hasan]

While audio sync with digital video is an industry wide issue, this issue that has been plaguing DirecTV is not due to any equipment at the user's end. It is definitely a broadcasting issue. Not sure if it is at DirecTV or at the network, though.

I wouldn't be that definitive. I don't think we know for certain that specific software changes may or may not add to or subtract from the problem. Unless you are intimately familiar with the HR2x series design and software implementations, your contention that it is not contributed to at all by the box/software is pure speculation.

If that is not correct, please provide your bona fides.:)

[ShapeGSX]

I'll watch the show I posted about earlier and see if I can pinpoint the spot where the audio ends up syncing. That should lend a clue. But the fact that commercials are in sync while the show itself is not seems to point at the network being the culprit, here. At least in my case.

If there aren't syncing cues in the video and audio, I'm not sure that anything can be done in the software of the player to make it work.

[omj]

I finally had a chance to call. USA and FX are way off tonight. One is showing Kingdom of Heave and the other is showing National Treasure. After a while the lady told me that it was not there fault and there was nothing they could do to fix it. I asked her about signing a contract for 2 more years and now the service was bad and she told me that I could cancel the HD anytime.
It's not that I want to cancel but I am hoping to force them to fix the issue. I am at a loss for ideas now. Any suggestions?

I am using component hookup. It has nothing to do with the hookup or more of the channels would be out of sync!

[houskamp]

both are dead on here..

[texasbrit]

I checked USA and National Treasure, and FX (Nip and Tuck was showing). Both showed very slight A/V sync issues, but the video was leading the audio not the other way around. Exactly the same problem existed on the SD versions of the channels. The sync issue was the same on all receivers (including two DVRs) and on my SD TiVo, and on all TVs. When the video leads the audio this is almost always a source problem, nothing to do with all the buffering and delay issues you get with HD video.

[Davenlr]

If anyone tells me they are getting the Weather Channel HD in sync, Ill scream. I'm seeing the onscreen witch talking at LEAST 500ms before I see her lips move. Commercials are dead on. This proves to me its NOT DirecTv's problem or the commercials would be off too.

Checked the SD simulcast, and the sync is perfect.

[dervari]

I'm watching TWCHD right now and no sync issues here. However, I am running TOSLINK to my receiver...no HDMI.

[texasbrit]

If anyone tells me they are getting the Weather Channel HD in sync, Ill scream. I'm seeing the onscreen witch talking at LEAST 500ms before I see her lips move. Commercials are dead on. This proves to me its NOT DirecTv's problem or the commercials would be off too.

Checked the SD simulcast, and the sync is perfect.

I see the sync problem on TWCHD right now also. It's nowhere near 500ms, but it is at least 100-150. And the SD channel is OK, and as you say the commercials on the HD channel are OK which shows it is a problem at the source and not DirecTV.
Oh and I should say the issue is there on all my DirecTV receivers and DVrs, and all the TVs - some are HDMI, some are component/optical audio, one is S-video/RCA audio. Two have the audio through A/V receivers, the others don't.

[texasbrit]

both are dead on here..

The sync issue I see on USA is VERY small, you have to watch for a long time before you see some specific situation where it is noticeable. I suspect the sync is well within the industry specs.

[SatNoob]

I have lip sync issues on basically every HD and some SD's.

[JeffBowser]

It is an issue, no arguing that. I see it on my sets, via HDMI, TOSLINK, and component. Only thing I haven't tried is composite (who cares about composite, anyway), and definately on the MPEG4 streams mostly. As others have posted, this is not specific to DirecTV, no sense in anyone flying into a rage with DirecTV.

[sigma1914]

I have lip sync issues on basically every HD and some SD's.

You have a serious equipment issue if every HD channel is out of sync.

[lifelong]

Maybe it's simply that there are more HD channels now so the problem is more apparent, but I had Comcast around a month ago and never saw any lip sync problems. I'll have to go through channels tonight and see if I only have lip sync problems with channels that Comcast did NOT carry.

[JeffBowser]

I think people tend to exaggerate in their anger and frustration. I get that in my line of business a lot. People think they will get more or better attention by exaggerating, or even outright lying, to my technicians. The real fact is, if I catch them at it, they get sent to the back of the line :D

You have a serious equipment issue if every HD channel is out of sync.

[techntrek]

I have seen sync issues, and the audio stutter/dropout on my equipment, and I'm not using HDMI; I use component. Both problems only happen on HD shows, not SD shows, but I haven't noticed if the older MPEG encoding is any worse or better than the newer encoding. I'll try to keep track of it in the future. I have noticed a far worse problem with the stuttering/dropout than with sync.

[omj]

Obviously there is a problem but they don't want to seem to fix it or they don't appear to be in a hurry. After speaking with the rep last night it's either love it or leave it. When it's working it's great, when it's not you have to go back and select the standard channel because it's terrible. I don't know, it really chaps my ass to pay for a service that works half the time.

[Steve Robertson]

Thanks to the OP for doing this. I have no sync problems at all but many dropouts which has become very annoying. I am going to call D* when I have an hour of time that I know it will take to talk to someone with a clue. I will probably have to swap out my 2 HR20 700's which I am not to happy about but TV is getting to the point of unwatchable at times.

[cawgijoe]

Lip sync fixes (black boxes):

http://www.lipfix.com/cln_000001_lip_sync_error_.html

http://www.alchemy2.com/

The Alchemy2 boxes are expensive but super high-end and anyone who remembers the Audio Alchemy company will know how great these guys are.

Don't know much about the cheaper alternative from the first url, but reviews seem very good.

[cawgijoe]

Obviously there is a problem but they don't want to seem to fix it or they don't appear to be in a hurry. After speaking with the rep last night it's either love it or leave it. When it's working it's great, when it's not you have to go back and select the standard channel because it's terrible. I don't know, it really chaps my ass to pay for a service that works half the time.

It's not just Directv.............

[SteveEJ]

I think people tend to exaggerate in their anger and frustration. I get that in my line of business a lot. People think they will get more or better attention by exaggerating, or even outright lying, to my technicians. The real fact is, if I catch them at it, they get sent to the back of the line :D

What does this have to do with it? In THIS situation, which is valid as attested to by others as well as me, and had been written about in several forums is not exaggerated or a lie! Maybe a little self examination is in order!

The fact is that there is a problem and most subscribers do not have the technical ability or knowledge to trouble shoot it. That does not mean that it does not exist or is not a problem! I have had the same problem for quite some time (since MPeg-4 started) and do not know where the issue starts or what it's cause is. I do have the right, as a paying customer, to expect better. I think that DirecTV is aware and working on it though.

Send me to the back of the line but please do not imply that I or the thread starter is lying!:mad: As a matter of fact, let me know what your 'Business' is so I can avoid it!

[sr6376]

Nowhere in your message(s), and in only one response, is HOW you have your system/display wired.

The 'effect' you are talking about is a dead giveaway as an HDMI problem; but again, you don't 'say' what you're using. HDMI is an extremely poor interface, with so many problems interfacing device-to-device, that unless you say up front what devices you have, what 'version' of HDMI each one has (there are over 6 different types), that any way of figuring things out is about ZERO.

If utilizing basic troubleshooting techniques, you can't seem to get the interface to 'settle down', you may need to punt; that is, toss the HDMI and go component with audio cables. Most HDMI systems I've come in contact with, with the audio problems, I've been able to get to settle down (and new s/w downloads from DirecTV have helped somewhat in the worst situations).

But that doesn't mean that the devices still won't 'slip' out of sync every once in a while; usually, turning either or all devices off/on will 'reset' the bitstream and get things back working again. But there are know BAD display devices, and integrated amplifiers/switchers, that have a bad rep of 'not playing nice' with others on the HDMI chain.

Sorry for the late response, but you couldn't be further from the problem by stating that it's an HDMI handshake issue. The sync problem is present on component hookups as well (as I have). The guy who has the "afro spock" picture has stated numerous times what the problem is.

In brief, it is a problem in the coding of HD media. There isn't anything within the coding that syncs audio to video, thus we have this problem crop up. Once things settle out and engineers work out the "kinks" in the hardware, the problem will hopefully disappear. I was originally very upset about this issue, but after seeing more and more explanations from "the spock guy" (can't recall his name right now while typing this out), I have come to understand where the problem lies and atleast for the time being will be patient.

If this problem persists without getting better, then I will need to choose whether or not to continue my HD service from D*. However, I have faith that they are working on it. I am sure that the spock guy could post the reasons behind the issue more clearly than me, or maybe he can provide a link to one of the older threads where he had done so previously.

[JeffBowser]

Afro-Spock :lol: :lol: :lol: I love it !

[Carl Spock]

^ Carl Spock is a hip cat, man.


Lip sync fixes (black boxes):

http://www.lipfix.com/cln_000001_lip_sync_error_.html

http://www.alchemy2.com/

The Alchemy2 boxes are expensive but super high-end and anyone who remembers the Audio Alchemy company will know how great these guys are.

Don't know much about the cheaper alternative from the first url, but reviews seem very good.
Thanks for the links. I'd found a Kramer box to fix this problem but it was very expensive and didn't have the good user controls the Felston box does.

I remember Audio Alchemy from my days in high end audio. I'm sure it's a superior piece but for the price, if I go with a box to solve this problem, I'll try the Felston piece first. I also really like the way it works. Good human engineering.

But first I'm going to wait 90 days and see what shakes out with DirecTV and its various networks. I'm betting most of the problems will be gone by then.

Still, I saved the links, just in case.

[sr6376]

That's the guy ^^^ ! ggergm :joy:

[JeffBowser]

You can retract your claws, I didn't say it wasn't a problem, nor did I imply anyone was lying, go back and read all my posts before you decide you are going to hop down my throat entirely unprovoked. Or, at the very least, take your personal attack private, so I may have the joy of responding in kind.


What does this have to do with it? In THIS situation, which is valid as attested to by others as well as me, and had been written about in several forums is not exaggerated or a lie! Maybe a little self examination is in order!

The fact is that there is a problem and most subscribers do not have the technical ability or knowledge to trouble shoot it. That does not mean that it does not exist or is not a problem! I have had the same problem for quite some time (since MPeg-4 started) and do not know where the issue starts or what it's cause is. I do have the right, as a paying customer, to expect better. I think that DirecTV is aware and working on it though.

Send me to the back of the line but please do not imply that I or the thread starter is lying!:mad: As a matter of fact, let me know what your 'Business' is so I can avoid it!

[SteveEJ]

^ Carl Spock is a hip cat, man.



Thanks for the links. I'd found a Kramer box to fix this problem but it was very expensive and didn't have the good user controls the Felston box does.

I remember Audio Alchemy from my days in high end audio. I'm sure it's a superior piece but for the price, if I go with a box to solve this problem, I'll try the Felston piece first. I also really like the way it works. Good human engineering.

But first I'm going to wait 90 days and see what shakes out with DirecTV and its various networks. I'm betting most of the problems will be gone by then.

Still, I saved the links, just in case.

+1
It was a very interesting read, expecially the part about how disturbing it can be to the human brain. If the sync error is not corrected in a couple of months I will also look into getting one.. Maybe it is technology that can be built into future receivers. Allowing a 'Fine tune' of audio sync via remote control. Could be done right? Adjustable delay loop for audio to help sync with video that would be user set for their system setup.. Idea maybe?

[cawgijoe]

^ Carl Spock is a hip cat, man.



Thanks for the links. I'd found a Kramer box to fix this problem but it was very expensive and didn't have the good user controls the Felston box does.

I remember Audio Alchemy from my days in high end audio. I'm sure it's a superior piece but for the price, if I go with a box to solve this problem, I'll try the Felston piece first. I also really like the way it works. Good human engineering.

But first I'm going to wait 90 days and see what shakes out with DirecTV and its various networks. I'm betting most of the problems will be gone by then.

Still, I saved the links, just in case.


Great.....hope this helps someone......I realize these are not cheap solutions, but if lipsync really bothers you, it's probably money well spent.

[psweig]

You are absolutely correct. Anyone trying to define this as only a D* problem just doesn't understand how early we are in the HD TV world. D* has to work on what they can, but the problem is much bigger than D* or any particular receiver.

Whether we recognize it or not, when it comes to HD, we are all early adopters and will be fighting these kinds of problems for years to come.

This doesn't mean there aren't problems. This doesn't mean that some are not in the control of D*. This doesn't mean that none are a result of HR2x series receivers. It does mean, it is a very widespread and multi-factored problem, that we are going to have to patiently work through.

The other choice is to make ourselves (and as many others as we can get to jump on the bandwagon) miserable.

Test > Feedback > Modify > Retest > Feedback > Modify > Return to Step 1.:)

I have noticed, in several ads for the newer HDTV LCD sets, that those tvs come with audio sync controls on them. My A/V receiver had such controls (haven't tried them yet). This supports your excellent point.

[omj]

Surely you guys aren't going to buy more equipment to fix the sync issue. Maybe directv should incorporate that into their receivers or give you the equipment to fix it. The rep tried to tell me that I could adjust settings on my surround sound to counter the sync issue but I kindly told her she was crazy beause not every channel does it so I would constantly be adjusting it.

[JeffBowser]

I have audio sync adjustments on my receiver as well, but the problem is, the sync is not off by the same amount on all stations, and on mine at least, the adjustment is not quick and easy.

[omj]

I went ahead and sent another email for the record:

I am just wanting to follow up with the conversation I
had last night with the customer service rep. I
called the number and used the pin and discussed my
problem. When I called I was put on hold for several
minutes and then she came back and asked if my problem
was HD related. I told yes and she put me back on
hold. She came back and told me that it was not
Directv's fault that the audio didn't sync correctly
and there was nothing they could do to fix it. She
told me I could cancel the HD package if I was not
happy. Is there nothing being done to fix these
problems?


Response:


Thanks for taking the time to write us back. I'm sorry to hear of the problem on your HD DVR receiver. I'm sorry to hear of your frustration regarding this issue. Please be informed that this problem is more common on High-Def TV and an Industry-wide problem that occurs on satellite TV, over-the-air TV, and cable TV. Currently, there’s nothing in Dolby standards to automatically synchronize audio to video.

Rest assured, we're always working to provide our customers with new and improved products and services, so please stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information.

If you have further concerns, please write us back or you can call us at 1-800-531-5000 for immediate assistance. Our Customer Service Representatives are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week to assist you.

Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,

[Carl Spock]

I am sure that the spock guy could post the reasons behind the issue more clearly than me, or maybe he can provide a link to one of the older threads where he had done so previously.
I hesitate to get involved here. One, I've been up to my LNB in these debates for the past few months. Two, I feel responsible for egging omj on to contact DirecTV to see if he can get this problem fixed. Because of that I want to support him in this thread any way I can. To come in with anything negative would be unseemly on my part.

If you want to find my opinion, just click on my name and call up my posts. Go back to some of the original ones I made. You'll learn what I think. It hasn't changed.

I will say this. I remain patient with DirecTV and the networks to fix this problem. We have a very interesting poster on this board. His name is DTTC. In one of his posts he identified himself as a Discover Networks insider. All of his posts have been technical in nature. His last one was about some video noise on the Science Channel. This morning he posted that noise has been eliminated. The problem was first mentioned here five weeks ago. DTTC seems like a concerned, knowledgeable guy. For whatever reason, it took the Discover Networks over thirty days to fix the sparkle problem. I have no reason to doubt there was a damn good reason it took that long.

I have asked DTTC to comment on the audio sync problems with Mythbusters. So far he has remained silent. Understandable. Hell, I wouldn't say anything. But when they finally get that sync problem solved, I'm sure he will let us know. My guess it will take a few more weeks or maybe even months. I'm patient.

But this is omj's thread. I'm neither a mod nor him, but I think if you have anything that would help him in his quest to get his problem solved, this is the appropriate place to post it. If not, this sync problem is being beat up all over this board. There are other places to talk about that.

Good luck, omj. :righton:

[omj]

Thanks man but it looks as if I have hit a dead end. I didn't think directv would really be able to do anything but I felt as if I needed to do my part in complaining and letting them know I am not happy with the problem so hopefully that would help contribute to them pushing whoever is responsible. I really enjoy the HD hence the reason I continue to pay 9.99 a month when sometimes it doesn't work properly but I think it is only going to get better the more they realize how unhappy people are with it. Anyways, I am just trying to do my part to make them aware.

[SteveEJ]

omj - I commend and thank you. There is an obvious problem. Next time you email them ask if they would forward a suggestion to the programmers of the HD receivers (Computer programmers) and see if they can at least include a audio fine tune, controllable via remote, that would help sync the audio. At least this might work until a better fix is in place.

[dreadlk]

The most frustrating part of this for me is that there seems to be a group of people trying to convince other people, that anybody that posts about Lip Sync issues is either having an isolated problem due to there hookup (HDMI/Component) or the problem is a general problem of HD and not a Directv HRx/Hx problem.

Let me first state that I am a Satellite Nutt. I have Directcv/ CBand / FTA /FTA-HD / 4DTV /4dtv-HD and I also Had Dishnetwork up to recently. So I have seen just about every signal out there and play around with most of them every night, from the orginal feeds on CBand all the way to Directvs signal.

I would readily admit that there are occasional problems with HD on all the systems but none of the systems has anywhere near the problems of Directv's MPEG4 transmissions. I can 100% tell you that when there is an Audio issue on certain shows like Mythbusters HD on MPEG4 that same problem is NOT happening at the source but is a byproduct of the Mpeg4 conversion.

The reason you don't have the problem on Mpeg2 and yet you have it on Mpeg4 is all the proof you really need. I would hope that some higher up people on this forum would stop trying to deflect the blame from D* and confuse people with HDMI stories and just let them know what is really going on so we can get the problem fixed.

[Impala1ss]

I switched from cable HD and Yamaha surround system where I had no lip sync problems for well over 1 year, to D* where I have a lot of problems with the same audio system. I also use component connections. My video is ahead of the audio so my Yamaha system can't cure it, not am I sure I would want to with different channels having different delays.

Perhaps an even bigger problem is D*'s refusal to address the problem, except through the CSR's who all read from the same script when you call. This is a corporate problem that no amount of troubleshooting by the customer/CSR will correct.

If D* would at least say we are looking into the problem, that would be helpful. I have never dealt with such a big company that has no customer relations program (except call takers). They refused to talk about what HD channels were coming or when, and now refuse to address the lip sync problem. Very frustrating. The HD PQ on new satellite is quite good however.

[jwd45244]

omj:

Have you read the posts in this thread? Across the board, people are saying that is problem is not isolated to DirecTV but is present with many HD channels / broadcasts. We all understand your frustration with the problem. Some of us question your ire directed at DirecTV when this is a cross industry issue.

[JeffBowser]

I think you hit it with the MPEG4 comment. Never seemed very noticeable with MPEG2. MPEG4 is not a DirecTV exclusive.

The most frustrating part of this for me is that there seems to be a group of people trying to convince other people, that anybody that posts about Lip Sync issues is either having an isolated problem due to there hookup (HDMI/Component) or the problem is a general problem of HD and not a Directv HRx/Hx problem.

Let me first state that I am a Satellite Nutt. I have Directcv/ CBand / FTA /FTA-HD / 4DTV /4dtv-HD and I also Had Dishnetwork up to recently. So I have seen just about every signal out there and play around with most of them every night, from the orginal feeds on CBand all the way to Directvs signal.

I would readily admit that there are occasional problems with HD on all the systems but none of the systems has anywhere near the problems of Directv's MPEG4 transmissions. I can 100% tell you that when there is an Audio issue on certain shows like Mythbusters HD on MPEG4 that same problem is NOT happening at the source but is a byproduct of the Mpeg4 conversion.

The reason you don't have the problem on Mpeg2 and yet you have it on Mpeg4 is all the proof you really need. I would hope that some higher up people on this forum would stop trying to deflect the blame from D* and confuse people with HDMI stories and just let them know what is really going on so we can get the problem fixed.

[SteveEJ]

One thing for sure.. As MPeg-2 goes away for MPeg-4 the problem will get worse, ie: more channels including SD, before it gets better. I have seen sync problems since they lit up the new HD channels. DirecTV needs to address this issue, and soon. If not the non-techies will start complaining and they will not be as understanding as those of us that understand that it takes time to fix the problem.

JMHO

[omj]

omj:

Have you read the posts in this thread? Across the board, people are saying that is problem is not isolated to DirecTV but is present with many HD channels / broadcasts. We all understand your frustration with the problem. Some of us question your ire directed at DirecTV when this is a cross industry issue.

Maybe they should spend more time correcting the issue instead of trying produce more and more HD channels. I would rather have the first 10 or 12 channels they first introduced in HD working properly than 100 that work half the time.

[SPACEMAKER]

I have occasional sync problems with my PBS OTA and my D* HD channels. I guess I am glad that it's not isolated to my system or area. But still, I hope they get this worked out. I can tolerate it but my wife gripes about it and the sound of her griping while I'm trying to watch something is enough to make me wish for a comet strike.

[lifelong]

I went ahead and sent another email for the record:

I am just wanting to follow up with the conversation I
had last night with the customer service rep. I
called the number and used the pin and discussed my
problem. When I called I was put on hold for several
minutes and then she came back and asked if my problem
was HD related. I told yes and she put me back on
hold. She came back and told me that it was not
Directv's fault that the audio didn't sync correctly
and there was nothing they could do to fix it. She
told me I could cancel the HD package if I was not
happy. Is there nothing being done to fix these
problems?


Response:


Thanks for taking the time to write us back. I'm sorry to hear of the problem on your HD DVR receiver. I'm sorry to hear of your frustration regarding this issue. Please be informed that this problem is more common on High-Def TV and an Industry-wide problem that occurs on satellite TV, over-the-air TV, and cable TV. Currently, there’s nothing in Dolby standards to automatically synchronize audio to video.

Rest assured, we're always working to provide our customers with new and improved products and services, so please stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information.

If you have further concerns, please write us back or you can call us at 1-800-531-5000 for immediate assistance. Our Customer Service Representatives are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week to assist you.

Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,

wow, so basically their response is "sorry, nothing we can do." i will say that i have NEVER experienced audio out of sync when watching an OTA HD channel on my office television. this tv has no directv, so the HR-20 is completely out of the picture, so i would contest the statement that it is an industry wide, common problem that occurs on OTA.

[Carl Spock]

I've certainly seen it OTA.

This the problem. You don't see it in your market so you don't believe it is common. I see it so I think it is prevalent. I bet neither point of view is correct.

[sigma1914]

wow, so basically their response is "sorry, nothing we can do." i will say that i have NEVER experienced audio out of sync when watching an OTA HD channel on my office television. this tv has no directv, so the HR-20 is completely out of the picture, so i would contest the statement that it is an industry wide, common problem that occurs on OTA.


So your 1 TV having no issue contests that it happens with others? Well, since one person doesn't have it, I'm calling BS on those who do! :rolleyes:

[sr6376]

I went ahead and sent another email for the record:

I am just wanting to follow up with the conversation I
had last night with the customer service rep. I
called the number and used the pin and discussed my
problem. When I called I was put on hold for several
minutes and then she came back and asked if my problem
was HD related. I told yes and she put me back on
hold. She came back and told me that it was not
Directv's fault that the audio didn't sync correctly
and there was nothing they could do to fix it. She
told me I could cancel the HD package if I was not
happy. Is there nothing being done to fix these
problems?


Response:


Thanks for taking the time to write us back. I'm sorry to hear of the problem on your HD DVR receiver. I'm sorry to hear of your frustration regarding this issue. Please be informed that this problem is more common on High-Def TV and an Industry-wide problem that occurs on satellite TV, over-the-air TV, and cable TV. Currently, there’s nothing in Dolby standards to automatically synchronize audio to video.

Rest assured, we're always working to provide our customers with new and improved products and services, so please stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information.

If you have further concerns, please write us back or you can call us at 1-800-531-5000 for immediate assistance. Our Customer Service Representatives are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week to assist you.

Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,


omj, please listen to what people are telling you. This isn't a problem with JUST D*. It is a problem that they are most certainly aware of, but it is not one that can be fixed with the snap of some engineer/technician's fingers.

It is not even a problem with D* in all reality. From what I have gathered, the programming is sent out video separated from audio, with no triggers internal to link the two together at a specific point, to be sure audio and video are proper, and that this is per the HD media specifications. Again, Afro Spock (ggergm) can enlighten people on this better than I can, including different points in the program's travel which would have the ability to introduce this delay that we are seeing. Only at the very end of the program's travel does it hit D*'s hardware. As people are even stating in this thread, not every program/channel is having the problem, and the ones that are are seeing varying times of delay so it isn't as if D* could implement an overall delay to the programming and be done with it.

I'll see if I can find the thread that explains it very well and post back the link.

That being said though, don't be discouraged with the "canned" responses you are getting from D*, you aren't likely to get anyone at D* to lay it on you straight and in complete detail. Patience, unfortunately, is our only option if we aren't willing to move away from HD from D*.


EDIT: This thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=108598&page=5) has some info in it

[cartrivision]

Lip sync fixes (black boxes):

http://www.lipfix.com/cln_000001_lip_sync_error_.html

http://www.alchemy2.com/

The Alchemy2 boxes are expensive but super high-end and anyone who remembers the Audio Alchemy company will know how great these guys are.

Don't know much about the cheaper alternative from the first url, but reviews seem very good.

But beware that those products are useless unless the out of sync issue is that the audio is preceding the video. If the observed lip-sync issue is because the audio signal is behind in time compared to the video signal, those very expensive boxes can't fix it.

[dreadlk]

SR6376 Where are you getting your information from??? And why are you distorting the known facts??

This problem is 1000% worst on Directv Mpeg4 channels than it is on any other satellite system. While some local networks and stations may be responsible for an occasional out of sync issue, the one's that most of us are experiencing daily have to do with DIRECTV mpeg4 stream and the Hr20/Hr21/H2x receivers.

Before firmware update 1BE the HR20 rarely experienced this problem and that rarity might be attributed to occasional station problems, but since the 1BE update it has become a horrible epidemic that makes recording and watching Directv HD an utter misery.



omj, please listen to what people are telling you. This isn't a problem with JUST D*. It is a problem that they are most certainly aware of, but it is not one that can be fixed with the snap of some engineer/technician's fingers.

It is not even a problem with D* in all reality.

[cawgijoe]

But beware that those products are useless unless the out of sync issue is that the audio is preceding the video. If the observed lip-sync issue is because the audio signal is behind in time compared to the video signal, those very expensive boxes can't fix it.

So which is it here? Is it a combination.....audio before video......video before audio......or is there a common theme?

I'll need to pay more attention, because even though I have a 5.1 system, I rarely listen to what comes off the air or dish through the AV system and I've rarely noticed lipsync problems. There are no lipsync issues with Blu-Ray through my PS3 or regular DVD through my Sony DVP-S9000ES.

I will play with the audio on my HR20 tonight through my receiver.

[cawgijoe]

This is an e-mail from a friend of mine who just got Directv last week and an HR21:

I did some experimenting last night and I think I know what is happening with my Home Theater system and the lip sync problem.

Right now the HDMI audio/video from the HR21 is fed to the XBR which is maintaining perfect lip sync. However, the video processing delay in the XBR is adding some small delay in both the audio and video before it is displayed on the screen. Lip sync is maintained OK on the TV and TV speakers.

The Toslink digital audio that is output from the HR21 is fed directly into the Denon receiver. The receiver does not add the same processing delay that is in the TV and thus the audio from the Denon is a little ahead of the displayed image. Here is the lip sync problem.

Does the Denon 3300 receiver have a programmable delay feature?

The TV does have a Toslink audio output and I do not know if the data here has the full Dolby Digital surround data as is input from the HDMI source. And I do not yet know for sure, however I suspect, that the audio that is output from the TV Toslink is delayed properly to match the video processing delay.

He has ordered a longer Toslink cable for the TV from Monoprice..........

So basically he is saying that there doesn't seem to be an issue with lipsync from his HR21 via HDMI directly to the TV and it's internal speakers.....the issue appears to be with the Toslink digital output to the receiver..........

[Carl Spock]

DTTC, the insider with the Discover Networks, responded to my request about info regarding Mythbusters and sync problems in general.

There are numerous reports of lip sync problems across many channels. Speaking for the Discovery HD networks (Discovery, TLC, Animal Planet and Science), I can assure you that the signals that we monitor on the satellite downlinks for our own networks are all correctly in sync. These downlinks that we monitor match the signals that are delivered to our affiliates (DirecTV, the cable headends, etc) so we are confident we are delivering correctly timed signals to these affiliates.

From postings on various forums it appears that if home viewers reboot their STB's it corrects the lip sync problem, which validates the statement above.

I didn't have the heart to tell him that sometimes a reboot isn't enough. :D But I did appreciate his response.

[wavemaster]

We have comcast digital cable as well as DirectTV.

As others have stated it is on the new MPEG4 channels.

I can look at discovery with the terrible lip sync on the HR-20 Via HDMI and then switch to cable (using a gefen switch) and the SAME HDMI interface into the TV and there is no sync issue.

It's very rare on the MPEG2 and it usually matches on the cable, so in those cases it could be the feed etc.

For those that "brush it off" as an "industry" issue, as long as you mean the DirectTV users seeing the new MPEG4 channels industry, I would agree.

This IS a DirectTV issue with the new channels.

With 1.5 Bil/mo. in revenue, DirectTV could put a few mil into figuring it out, embedding their own signal and start doing it on all the channels.

DirectTV's job is to make money. I have no problem with that it's an American company. The vehicle they use to make that money is their service. When enough people complain about the level of their service, the problem becomes the "cost of doing business". If all of us called and complained when ever it was an issue, eventually they will fix it.

I just with people would stop blaming this on HDMI and the "industry". It is on the new channels and that is on DirectTV.

[cody21]

CNNHD is horrible right now ... Has been for over 1/2 hour.

Both HR20 & H20 are an issue.

I NEVER had this issue with my HR10-250 ... ok, seldom if ever.

[Carl Spock]

It is really bad right now. But what I find the most interesting is something I've seen before with CNN HD. Lou Dobbs is interviewing Candy Crowley. She's in Des Moines. He's in Atlanta. He's off a bit. She's way off. We have two different mis-syncs within the same broadcast.

I don't see how this could be DirecTV's fault. I will blame them for a lot of the problems I see. But this one? How does DirecTV screw it up so that within a split screen shot, with Lou on the left and Candy on the right, they have two different sync problems?

This has got to be CNN's fault. At least partially.

[ShapeGSX]

From postings on various forums it appears that if home viewers reboot their STB's it corrects the lip sync problem, which validates the statement above.

If I rebooted every time I got a lip sync issue, I'd be rebooting continuously.

I don't care who's issue it is. Just that everyone at DirecTV needs to get together and FIX THE PROBLEM! Pointing fingers doesn't get the problem fixed. This is not the level of service that someone should have to pay $80 a month for.

[cody21]

This has got to be CNN's fault. At least partially.

Immediately after upgrading my HR10-250 to the HR20 & H20, I started experiencing these issues on both machines - lip sync & audio dropouts. After about a week, I also blamed the worst offender (CBS - Local Mpeg4) as the culprit. I personally emailed and worked with the local CBS technicians in SF for nearly a week. Their claim was that the issue was not theirs ... it was a DirectTV issue and "their technicians were aware of it."

[Carl Spock]

I am not saying DirecTV isn't at fault for many of our problems. Just please explain to me how DirecTV causes two different sync problems within the same picture. It is not as simple as the new software in your units. It can't be.

Get reasonable.

The software may be partially to blame. Who knows? I certainly don't. But there is one thing I know for sure about this problem. There isn't a magic bullet fix. If there was, it would have been done by now.

[cawgijoe]

Ok......I have a question........why is my system ok?

This is not good believe it or not because my friend has a two week old 52" XBR4 and is having the lip sync issue and I can't tell him I do!!

I just ran through quite a few channels including the MPEG4 locals with the audio played through my receiver.....the video is directly connected to the TV from the HR20.....and no lip sync.

Is it because I don't have a new LCD/Plasma/Rear Proj TV?

Is it just working tonight? Is this an intermittent problem?

My setup:

Sony KV-34XBR800
Denon AVR-3300
Directv HR20

The video connection is HDMI to DVI to the TV
The audio is Toslink from the HR20 to the Denon receiver.

[ShapeGSX]

I've never had issues with the MPEG4 locals. Mainly Discovery HD.

[Davenlr]

I just did a direct capture from the HR20 Svideo out/composite audio out to my computer. Captured both a vonage commercial and a clip with the onscreen droid. Both clips had identical sync problems when loaded into Virtualdub. The audio preceeds the video by 275ms. Adding a 275ms delay on the audio synced them right up.

Switched over to the H20 & the sync was off by 200ms using the same test.

[SteveEJ]

I just did a direct capture from the HR20 Svideo out/composite audio out to my computer. Captured both a vonage commercial and a clip with the onscreen droid. Both clips had identical sync problems when loaded into Virtualdub. The audio preceeds the video by 275ms. Adding a 275ms delay on the audio synced them right up.

Switched over to the H20 & the sync was off by 200ms using the same test.

I wonder if Mpeg4 locals would have the same errors? Do they use the same Mpeg4 decoders that the satellite receivers do?

I need to get Virtualdub and do some testing as well. We need to test some small clips from different channels on the same receivers/models and compare same models/software versions from different subs.

Anyone want to help? If we get several volunteers we will need a data compiler as well. Maybe we can come up with some definitive answers! or maybe more questions!

[Davenlr]

I think we are dealing with several different problem sources than it appears. In my case, the only two mpeg4 channels I consistently have sync problems with are TWCHD and CNNHD. I'm going out on a limb and thinking these channels problems are at the source. I don't have any sync issues myself on any of the Discovery network channels (mpeg2 or 4) or with any of the original Mpeg2 channels.

If someone has a peticular channel/show that is consistantly out of sync, and several of us with different receivers could measure the delay at the same time, we might be able to come up with something in common for those with directv related problems.

[houskamp]

could even be that something in the original encoding is messing up the reencoding to mpeg4.. I know I have seen when a local channel of OTA gets out of wack by a little it seems to be amplified in the mpeg4 ones..

[dervari]

I have a newly re-activated H20 in the bedroom and an HR20 in the main room. I had never seen the Lip Sync issue on live TV until I moved the H20 onto HDMI. I went downstairs and the HR20 (connected via HDMI/TOSLINK) was perfectly in sync.

[sigma1914]

Here in Dallas/Ftw, our local NBC 5 news in HD has been out of sync everyday for like 2 weeks now. It's fine via cable. It's only during the local HD news...no other shows.

[omj]

I started this thread trying to get a response from directv about what they are doing to fix it and apparently they couldn't give me an answer. You guys can go back and forth with the problem all you want but it boils down to directv. We are paying them for the programing, they are responsible for making sure it's correct. If I was sending my bill to Fox then Fox would be responsible for their channels. Letting them get away with putting the blame somewhere else is not correct. It's only going to get fixed when people start complaining and it effects their profit. Sometimes I wish I had lots of money so I could mess with these companies. I would really like to not pay them for a month or two and when they call me to collect I could put them on hold and tell them I was transferring them to my account department. After 20 minutes of hold I could come back and let them talk for a while. Then, put them on hold again and finally tell them that I have been trying to send the payment but it appears to be a problem with my online banking. It's an industry problem. If you don't like it just shut off my service.

Ok, that's enough. Anyway, they are not going to rush to fix this problem until it effects their bottom line.

[lifelong]

I am not saying DirecTV isn't at fault for many of our problems. Just please explain to me how DirecTV causes two different sync problems within the same picture. It is not as simple as the new software in your units. It can't be.

Get reasonable.

The software may be partially to blame. Who knows? I certainly don't. But there is one thing I know for sure about this problem. There isn't a magic bullet fix. If there was, it would have been done by now.

Even if DirecTV is 100% blameless, with who else can a customer resolve these lip sync problems? We pay DirecTV for the programming, not CNN, etc. DirecTV obviously kicks them some change per subscriber, but DirecTV is our provider. If it is 100% CNN's fault that CNN HD has audio sync issues, we cannot easily (or at all) get an audience with them. CNN has no "customer service" line that I am aware of, as their business is providing the content to cable/satellite providers. DirecTV is our conduit to them. But, if DirecTV says "it's their fault" and the content providers, per your Discovery networks insider, says "no, it's their fault," then what can we do? What would you suggest?

[Carl Spock]

I would suggest being like omj. I would bring the problem constantly to DirecTV even knowing there is no easy solution other than discontinuing your service, which obviously he doesn't want to do. I would send them an email every single time I see a sync problem. I would complain loudly and often to DirecTV, even though I was talking to a brick wall :bang , because as you rightly say, they are the ones who are delivering us the channels.

I would also keep it polite and respectful. After dealing with a CSR that is as unresponsive as a stone, it's tempting to slam down the phone with one last cutting remark. I know. I've done it. Instead, if you are going to be tilling at windmills, you better be as polite as Don Quixote. Passionate, yes, but always remembering your frustration is with DirecTV and its suppliers, not the CSR on the other end of the line. As I've said, I personally would find this hard. I'd have to psych myself up to be sickeningly nice before each phone call. I'd probably be more likely to send emails because at least I can edit out the anger before I hit Send.

I would not say the problem has only existed since the last software upgrade because (1) that is not true - it existed years before the last software upgrade - and (2) at least part of the problem is from the content suppliers themselves. cody21 said he'd only experienced this problem since the software was upgraded on his units and while that is undoubtably the case, there are too many other variables and specifically documented cases, like my one regarding CNN, that say that the problem is solely caused by our DVRs. They may be part of the problem as they are in the chain but they aren't the only cause of the problem. This was the reason for my post that you quote.

If you want to complain, go ahead and complain. Complain loudly and often. That's why there is email and the 800 number. Who knows? It might make a difference. If you don't want to complain, don't complain. That's my strategy. I expect TPTB will fix this over the next few months and I'm patient with that. They fixed it in the past and they will do it again. I just think you should complain with the correct facts. You have a much better chance of getting resolution that way.

[Carl Spock]

You did inspire me, lifelong. I found a place to complain to CNN directly. I sent them an email telling them of what I am seeing.

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form6a.html?2

My note to CNN:

The audio & video sync on your HD channel is terrible. I get it from DirecTV and at least part of the problem exists within your studios. On Lou Dobbs last night (12/12), he was interviewing Candy Crowley. Lou's audio and video was a bit out of sync but hers was way out of sync. This was evident even on a split screen shot, when they were both on the screen at the same time, so it had to be internal within your system.

I have seen this before on your HD feed. It was terrible after your Las Vegas YouTube debate. The anchor in Atlanta was almost in sync while the reporter in Las Vegas was way off of sync. Again, this means the problem must be within your system.

I find it unwatchable. When the sync is as bad as I saw last night, I switch over to MSNBC. That shows you how bad it was. I'd rather watch Tucker Carlson than Lou Dobbs when the picture and audio is out of sync. That's desparate!

Please solve this problem.
I'll let you know what they say.

[texasbrit]

I think we are dealing with several different problem sources than it appears. In my case, the only two mpeg4 channels I consistently have sync problems with are TWCHD and CNNHD. I'm going out on a limb and thinking these channels problems are at the source. I don't have any sync issues myself on any of the Discovery network channels (mpeg2 or 4) or with any of the original Mpeg2 channels.

If someone has a peticular channel/show that is consistantly out of sync, and several of us with different receivers could measure the delay at the same time, we might be able to come up with something in common for those with directv related problems.

When I watched TWC last night it was clearly a source problem. The SD channel was fine. The HD channel was about a quarter-second out of sync - until the commercials. Then it was in sync. As soon as the program went back to the studio, it was out of sync again.

[cody21]

could even be that something in the original encoding is messing up the reencoding to mpeg4.. I know I have seen when a local channel of OTA gets out of wack by a little it seems to be amplified in the mpeg4 ones..

+1

[Skins Fan]

Here in Dallas/Ftw, our local NBC 5 news in HD has been out of sync everyday for like 2 weeks now. It's fine via cable. It's only during the local HD news...no other shows.

Same here in the D.C. area for our local ABC station WJLA ch. 7. For about a week or so. It is ok OTA and SD. Only screwed up on Directv HD and just that one local.

[cody21]

snip .... cody21 said he'd only experienced this problem since the software was upgraded on his units and while that is undoubtably the case, there are too many other variables and specifically documented cases, like my one regarding CNN, that say that the problem is solely caused by our DVRs. ..snip

I did not say that. What I thought I said - or meant to say - is that I hardly ever had these Audio Sync (definitely not the Audioo Dropout problems) issues with my HR10-250 ... When the MPEG4 requirements drove me to upgrade my HARDWARE, that's when I immediately and persistently had the problems. The latest national Release of software on my H20 has not had any impact on the problem - good or bad... just the same.

[cody21]

... and CNNHD sucks right now once again... during the Democrat Debates at 11 AM PDT ... I just sent CNN an email using that form above.

[omj]

Maybe all my bitching is doing some good!! People are sending emails!!

[Carl Spock]

... and CNNHD sucks right now once again... during the Democrat Debates at 11 AM PDT ... I just sent CNN an email using that form above.
If anything the sound is slightly behind the video during the debate. Somebody is trying to fix this and not doing a very good job of it.

[cawgijoe]

Ok.......my friend with the new Directv setup called Directv today and spoke with an engineer rather then the CSR.

Directv is very aware of the problem. The engineer said that they are receiving calls daily on this issue and if it was an easy fix, they would have already done it. It's not just a Directv issue, it also pertains to the other television providers including Dish Network and the cable companies. It is system wide. He explained that it occurs with the Dolby Digital audio feed which is completely separate from the video feed. The Dolby Digital spec did not and does not call for video sync.

He also said that the reason my friend does not see any lip sync when bypassing the receiver and going directly to the TV is because the TV is receiving and outputting stereo and not 5.1.

Again, they know there is a problem and are working to resolve.

Having said that, I agree that it does not hurt to complain about it in order to keep awareness high so that this issue will be a top priority.

[CJTE]

I sent another reply asking about my original question concerning the contract having a clause about being able to cancel when the service I am paying for is not working properly.

The problem (usually) isnt with the programming/broadcast. Its usually with the equipment, which puts both your receiver and your tv at fault, which means its not DirecTV's responsibilty. So, that's not a loophole in your contract. Sorry.

[cody21]

.. snip ...Directv is very aware of the problem. The engineer said that they are receiving calls daily on this issue and if it was an easy fix, they would have already done it. It's not just a Directv issue, it also pertains to the other television providers including Dish Network and the cable companies. It is system wide. He explained that it occurs with the Dolby Digital audio feed which is completely separate from the video feed. The Dolby Digital spec did not and does not call for video sync.

He also said that the reason my friend does not see any lip sync when bypassing the receiver and going directly to the TV is because the TV is receiving and outputting stereo and not 5.1..

But if I switch to the SD version os the channel, the problem does not exist. Or OTA for that matter for the LILs ... and again, these problems did not exist (as much anyway) until I was forced to the HR20/H20 ... So what changed in DD5.1 with the new "system" ?? I use HDMI on 1 receiver and Component on the other.

Oh, and is CNNHD an MPEG4 channel? (PS - the lips are still out of sync - 1 hour 10 mins later..)

[omj]

The problem (usually) isnt with the programming/broadcast. Its usually with the equipment, which puts both your receiver and your tv at fault, which means its not DirecTV's responsibilty. So, that's not a loophole in your contract. Sorry.

Last time I checked the equipment came from directv and my tv never has had a problem with this before so I would think IT"S DIRECTV'S RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE WORKING PROGRAMMING.

[lifelong]

Ok.......my friend with the new Directv setup called Directv today and spoke with an engineer rather then the CSR.

Directv is very aware of the problem. The engineer said that they are receiving calls daily on this issue and if it was an easy fix, they would have already done it. It's not just a Directv issue, it also pertains to the other television providers including Dish Network and the cable companies. It is system wide. He explained that it occurs with the Dolby Digital audio feed which is completely separate from the video feed. The Dolby Digital spec did not and does not call for video sync.

He also said that the reason my friend does not see any lip sync when bypassing the receiver and going directly to the TV is because the TV is receiving and outputting stereo and not 5.1.

Again, they know there is a problem and are working to resolve.

Having said that, I agree that it does not hurt to complain about it in order to keep awareness high so that this issue will be a top priority.

At least they are "very aware of the problem." Now, let's hope they can somehow resolve it.

[JeffBowser]

Really stifling the urge to jump back in here;) , I failed, so: our GIJoe friend has hit the nail on the head pretty good.

Ok.......my friend with the new Directv setup called Directv today and spoke with an engineer rather then the CSR.

Directv is very aware of the problem. The engineer said that they are receiving calls daily on this issue and if it was an easy fix, they would have already done it. It's not just a Directv issue, it also pertains to the other television providers including Dish Network and the cable companies. It is system wide. He explained that it occurs with the Dolby Digital audio feed which is completely separate from the video feed. The Dolby Digital spec did not and does not call for video sync.

He also said that the reason my friend does not see any lip sync when bypassing the receiver and going directly to the TV is because the TV is receiving and outputting stereo and not 5.1.

Again, they know there is a problem and are working to resolve.

Having said that, I agree that it does not hurt to complain about it in order to keep awareness high so that this issue will be a top priority.

[CJTE]

Ok.......my friend with the new Directv setup called Directv today and spoke with an engineer rather then the CSR.


lol.
Unless your friend has an engineer's cell phone number... He didnt actually talk to an engineer. If he called any of the DTV numbers (531-5000, 347-3288, 695-9251, etc etc), he got a CSR.

EDIT
removed single quotes from the word friend, as I didnt mean to put them there in the first place.

[lifelong]

I would suggest being like omj. I would bring the problem constantly to DirecTV even knowing there is no easy solution other than discontinuing your service, which obviously he doesn't want to do. I would send them an email every single time I see a sync problem. I would complain loudly and often to DirecTV, even though I was talking to a brick wall :bang , because as you rightly say, they are the ones who are delivering us the channels.

I would also keep it polite and respectful. After dealing with a CSR that is as unresponsive as a stone, it's tempting to slam down the phone with one last cutting remark. I know. I've done it. Instead, if you are going to be tilling at windmills, you better be as polite as Don Quixote. Passionate, yes, but always remembering your frustration is with DirecTV and its suppliers, not the CSR on the other end of the line. As I've said, I personally would find this hard. I'd have to psych myself up to be sickeningly nice before each phone call. I'd probably be more likely to send emails because at least I can edit out the anger before I hit Send.

I would not say the problem has only existed since the last software upgrade because (1) that is not true - it existed years before the last software upgrade - and (2) at least part of the problem is from the content suppliers themselves. cody21 said he'd only experienced this problem since the software was upgraded on his units and while that is undoubtably the case, there are too many other variables and specifically documented cases, like my one regarding CNN, that say that the problem is solely caused by our DVRs. They may be part of the problem as they are in the chain but they aren't the only cause of the problem. This was the reason for my post that you quote.

If you want to complain, go ahead and complain. Complain loudly and often. That's why there is email and the 800 number. Who knows? It might make a difference. If you don't want to complain, don't complain. That's my strategy. I expect TPTB will fix this over the next few months and I'm patient with that. They fixed it in the past and they will do it again. I just think you should complain with the correct facts. You have a much better chance of getting resolution that way.

OK, I have been with DirecTV for just a month or so, so I don't have a history of when I saw the problem vs. not seeing it. I just know it's there.

[JeffBowser]

Yeah, I don't know that I believe his friend really spoke to an engineer, but that doesn't invalidate the explanation. He's come the closest to on this particular thread to showing the real issue, though. Separate audio and data streams, and no real standard for syncing in existence.

lol.
Unless your 'friend' has an engineer's cell phone number... He didnt actually talk to an engineer. If he called any of the DTV numbers (531-5000, 347-3288, 695-9251, etc etc), he got a CSR.

[dreadlk]

The Engineer is weaving you a colorful tale so you'll stop complaining.

1) I use stereo output and I have the same Lip Sync issues

2) I can switch to the Source HD signal for some of the same channels Via CBand and it has no Lip Sync problems while the DIRECTV rebroadcast has problems.

3) I don't have problems on Mpeg2 HD channels only Mpeg4 HD and I have tried Mpeg4 HD feeds on FTA and they work fine.

There are some problems with HD broadcasts but most of the problems that you find on Directv are only found on directv



Ok.......my friend with the new Directv setup called Directv today and spoke with an engineer rather then the CSR.

Directv is very aware of the problem. The engineer said that they are receiving calls daily on this issue and if it was an easy fix, they would have already done it. It's not just a Directv issue, it also pertains to the other television providers including Dish Network and the cable companies. It is system wide. He explained that it occurs with the Dolby Digital audio feed which is completely separate from the video feed. The Dolby Digital spec did not and does not call for video sync.

He also said that the reason my friend does not see any lip sync when bypassing the receiver and going directly to the TV is because the TV is receiving and outputting stereo and not 5.1.

Again, they know there is a problem and are working to resolve.

Having said that, I agree that it does not hurt to complain about it in order to keep awareness high so that this issue will be a top priority.

[cody21]

Ditto .... My experience has been only the MPEG4 channels get this problem (lip sync) - as well as the Audio Dropouts; hence why I didn't see this going on before the swap out of my HR10-250 for the HR20 & H20.

Does anyone know if CNNHD is MPEG4 ???

[Matt9876]

Does anyone know if CNNHD is MPEG4 ???

Yes CNNHD is mpeg4.

[cody21]

Then that makes total sense... 'Cause all of my Audio Dropouts & Lip Sync issues have been with the MPEG4 technology implemented. When I switch to OTA or SD, I NEVER see these 2 issues.

[cawgijoe]

But if I switch to the SD version os the channel, the problem does not exist. Or OTA for that matter for the LILs ... and again, these problems did not exist (as much anyway) until I was forced to the HR20/H20 ... So what changed in DD5.1 with the new "system" ?? I use HDMI on 1 receiver and Component on the other.

Oh, and is CNNHD an MPEG4 channel? (PS - the lips are still out of sync - 1 hour 10 mins later..)

I'm just repeating what was told.........I personally don't have any lip sync issues with my HR20 going through a receiver or otherwise.

I watched CSI NY last night through my HR20 and receiver with no lip sync problem. All I got was a couple dropouts in the audio towards the end of the show.

What's the deal here folks?

Why are some here seeing huge problems with everything.....others with some channels........others with just the MPEG4's.......others say the MPEG4s are fine........this doesn't make sense at all to me.

[cawgijoe]

lol.
Unless your 'friend' has an engineer's cell phone number... He didnt actually talk to an engineer. If he called any of the DTV numbers (531-5000, 347-3288, 695-9251, etc etc), he got a CSR.

No. He asked too talk to a technical person, not a CSR.

[cawgijoe]

lol.
Unless your 'friend' has an engineer's cell phone number... He didnt actually talk to an engineer. If he called any of the DTV numbers (531-5000, 347-3288, 695-9251, etc etc), he got a CSR.

You know.....you try and help and convey what you think might be good information to try and help people and then you get idiotic responses such as this with friend in quotes.........get lost:mad:

[Carl Spock]

I still like cawgijoe's contact. It confirms the obvious, the DirecTV is getting beat up over the lip sync problem and that there is no easy fix. Given the paucity of information from DirecTV on this, knowing those two things for certain is news.

BTW, I deleted a post upthread where I compared the output of my HR20 in the Dolby Digital and PCM modes. I realized later my test was bogus. Oops.

In fact, that's the one line that reads really false in the "engineer's" info - that if you don't use Dolby Digital, you won't have the problem. I'm glad dreadlk has said he gets lip sync issues using stereo out (Sorry for you, dreadlk, but good for us. :D ). It's the same digital stream out, PCM or 5.1. Those two should be locked together.

[cawgijoe]

I still like cawgijoe's contact. It confirms the obvious, the DirecTV is getting beat up over the lip sync problem and that there is no easy fix. Given the paucity of information from DirecTV on this, knowing those two things for certain is news.

BTW, I deleted a post upthread where I compared the output of my HR20 in the Dolby Digital and PCM modes. I realized later my test was bogus. Oops.

In fact, that's the one line that reads really false in the "engineer's" info - that if you don't use Dolby Digital, you won't have the problem. I'm glad dreadlk has said he gets lip sync issues using stereo out (Sorry for you, dreadlk, but good for us. :D ). It's the same digital stream out, PCM or 5.1. Those two should be locked together.

Why is it that my friend's system has no lipsync issue going from the HR21 directly into the TV?

Yet the lipsync issue is there while decoding Dolby Digital through his receiver?

Should not there be problems both ways?

I will check this out in the morning since I've got the day off and we are installing a Winegard UHF antenna at his house.

[cody21]

FWIW - my DD is turned OFF on my H20 .... so anything suggested that this is a DD issue seems improbable to me... but again, I'm no technician. Also, my HDMI cable goes directly from the H20 to the TV. No amplifier in between.

[Skins Fan]

lol.
Unless your 'friend' has an engineer's cell phone number... He didnt actually talk to an engineer. If he called any of the DTV numbers (531-5000, 347-3288, 695-9251, etc etc), he got a CSR.

Although I agree he may not have talked to an engineer, don't be too quick to poo-poo him. I have experimented using the voice prompts that Directv has and you would be surprized what departments you can get just by saying them. It is quite possible he could have reach a tier 2 tech (they consider themselves engineering techs) I have done it.:lol:

[cawgijoe]

FWIW - my DD is turned OFF on my H20 .... so anything suggested that this is a DD issue seems improbable to me... but again, I'm no technician. Also, my HDMI cable goes directly from the H20 to the TV. No amplifier in between.

My friend's connection is HDMI from the HR21 to the TV and Toslink from the HR21 to the receiver......DD turned on.

No lipsync on the TV's internal speakers......lipsync via the receiver.

[cawgijoe]

Although I agree he may not have talked to an engineer, don't be too quick to poo-poo him. I have experimented using the voice prompts that Directv has and you would be surprized what departments you can get just by saying them. It is quite possible he could have reach a tier 2 tech (they consider themselves engineering techs) I have done it.:lol:

YES!.....that's it! He told me he had reached a "tier 2 tech or engineer".

Thank you!:)

Gotta run for now guys......this whole thing is just bizarre.

[Carl Spock]

Why is it that my friend's system has no lipsync issue going from the HR21 directly into the TV?

Yet the lipsync issue is there while decoding Dolby Digital through his receiver?

Should not there be problems both ways?

I will check this out in the morning since I've got the day off and we are installing a Winegard UHF antenna at his house.
I don't know.

Try this out tomorrow. Play the audio through his home theater system as straight and bypassed as you can. In other words, leave it in the loop but turn off all of the audio processing. I want two channel straight audio. See if that makes a difference and let us know.

A receiver now-a-days has buffers built into it, certainly audio and maybe video. My Yamaha can step everything up to 1080p. There's bound to be a buffer to do that job. Plus there are audio delays built into Dolby Digital. Those steps in the receiver's menu about setting how far the speakers are away from you? You are setting delay times (1 foot = 1 millisecond). That's a buffer. Finally, a lot of HT receivers have audio modes to make your room sound bigger. If your buddy has one of those engaged, that's more delay.

Check and see if his audio follows or precedes his video. That will tell us a lot.

God, life was easier when I was into high-end audio and television was a Sony coffee table sized projector shooting onto a 50" curved screen. Give me a properly set up turntable and a straight wire with gain anytime. :grin:

[SPACEMAKER]

I was watching the PGA on VSGFHD and the sync was terrible. Either that or the microphones were a quarter mile away from the golfers which would explain why I was seeing the swing long before I heard it.

[cody21]

It's time for all of us to start emailing DirectTV ... we need to turn up the heat IMHO. Maybe if we each get a reply back that they're "aware of the problem and are working on it" we can possibly assist them in trouble shooting this.

[Davenlr]

Turned Dolby Digital off on the HR20, switched channels and then back to TWC-HD and the sync is "almost" on. Turned Dolby back on, and again switched channels and back, and its still almost on. Obviously much better than the 1/4 second it was off last night.

As far as HDMI vs Toslink, I have both hooked up simultaneously. The audio through my 5.1 system (toslink) and TV (HDMI) are both in perfect harmony.

[texasbrit]

There are so many pieces to this puzzle and they all get mixed up together. Her's my take on some of them.
1. This IS an industry-wide problem, regardless of what people might post about how they never see the same problem on cable or OTA. Tell that to my neighbors on Comcast, or the people complaining about the sync issue on NBC5 HD OTA here in Dallas, or people who get sync issues with their upconverting and hidef DVD players. If it were not an industry-wide problem, the TV broadcast industry would not be addressing it with working groups trying to come up with technical recommendations. The reason it is a problem, is that for digital television there is currently no way of tying the digital video and audio together once they are in the distribution stream. That means that if anything happens to slow the video down (it is usually the video, except in very unusual circumstances) then the two lose sync, and there is no way of pulling the two back together again (except by watching the program and adjusting the sync back at the source). Even this does not resolve the issue since the delays in your equipment may be different from mine, hence people are using A/V sync boxes, or A/V sync controls in their A/V receivers, or (soon) TVs and A/V receivers that use the sync capabilities of HDMI 1.3 to correct for the problem.

2. Once you accept, however reluctantly, that the A/V sync problem is an industry problem it is easier to see what causes sync issues and how they can at least be minimised (given that they can't be eliminated using currect technology). First, you get sync problems that are created all the way back at the program provider. The CNNHD problems mentioned above are typical. On TWCHD a couple of nights ago, the SD channel was fine, on the HD channel the video was about a quarter second behind the audio - maybe DirecTV you would have thought - but as soon as the commercials started on the HD channel, sync was fine - then as soon as the program went back to the studio, we were out of sync again. The problem with Mythbusters was definitely a source problem - the program starts, you lose sync in a major way, the program finishes, everything is fine. And situations where the video leads the audio are almost always a source problem.

For problems that are not the source, what can cause the sync to be incorrect? The more data you are processing, the worse the potential problem. That means HD is a much bigger problem than SD. Because the MPEG-4 decoders seem to use larger buffer sizes, it also means that MPEG-4 is more likely to have sync issues. Every time the digital video goes through any sort of buffering, it will be delayed. And there's buffering all over the place in digital TV - encoding/decoding/distribution and so on. Even your flat-panel TV buffers the data, which is why any delay caused by your own equipment tends to be worse with flat panel HDTVs rather than CRT-based projection systems. Sometimes HDMI is worse than component, because of buffering issues. Any one program can encounter some or all of these issues, and they will vary between programming sources depending on the distribution network.
I am not convinced that any particular software release is making the situation worse. There are just so many more MPEG-4 HD channels, and so many more people watching, that the issue is just more widespread than it was.

And then there are sync problems caused by errors/bugs in the various digital processing systems. Incorrect setting up of encoders/decoders. Software bugs in encoders, in DVRs like the HR20 and so on.

All of these things have the ability to create out-of-sync conditions. If there were an easy way to tie the audio and video together all the way to your TV and A/V receiver, it would not matter much that these conditions occurred. The TV/A-V receiver would just delay the audio until the video arrived. There are proposals to put digital "watermarks" in the video and audio to tie the two together, but these changes are years away and would need new equipment (TVs and A/V receivers in particular). So what to do in the meantime? Obviously pressure the program providers, both directly and through DirecTV, to clean up their act. Hopefully DirecTV will also look closely at its own distribution network, use improved MPEG-4 encoders (and decoders in the DVRs) and eliminate the obvious bugs (such as the one in the HR20 that suddenly gives you a several-second out-of-sync when playing a recording).

But until the industry works out a way of linking audio and video all the way through to your TV, all these things will just reduce the effects of the problem not eliminate it.

[CJTE]

You know.....you try and help and convey what you think might be good information to try and help people and then you get idiotic responses such as this with friend in quotes.........get lost:mad:

lol. You may not like my responses but that doesnt mean they're useless or incorrect. The friend here spoke with a Technical CSR, on top of that, they spoke with a Technical CSR who acutally KNEW what they are talking about. If you'll take a moment to CONSIDER that when you call DirecTV, you call a CALL CENTER, and not some big corporate building where all these DirecTV officials work, and you get someone who was busy at their desk and their phone rang so they stopped what they were doing to help you, you'll understand what im saying. Beleive it or not, there are Engineers, Installers, CSR's, Customers, and even corporate bigwigs that frequent this board. Take Earl for example, as far as we are all aware, he does have personal contact with atleast one, if not a team, of ACTUAL engineers at DirecTV. Not very many other people have that kind of contact. They've got numbers for D* call centers. Maybe a direct line for Tech Support or Level 2 but...

So, im sorry if you've got a chip on your shoulder, but, im not going anywhere.

[CJTE]

Although I agree he may not have talked to an engineer, don't be too quick to poo-poo him. I have experimented using the voice prompts that Directv has and you would be surprized what departments you can get just by saying them. It is quite possible he could have reach a tier 2 tech (they consider themselves engineering techs) I have done it.:lol:

Oh I agree 100%

[CJTE]

It's time for all of us to start emailing DirectTV ... we need to turn up the heat IMHO. Maybe if we each get a reply back that they're "aware of the problem and are working on it" we can possibly assist them in trouble shooting this.

I beleive a short quote from SpartanStew's Signature reads "... DO NOT CONTACT CSR's FOR ANYTHING"

DirecTV is watching. The CSR's (email or otherwise) wont be able to do much, as they are CSRs...
However, I do beleive that if you WERE gonna get anywhere, it'd be with Tier 2 technical, which, if your lucky, you can reach by phone, and I also beleive there are some that are reachable by email.

[trekologer]

Over the last couple of years I have made a couple observations with audio/video sync issues and some tech issues in general.

-I have had OTA HD broadcasts lose sync. This was with the tuner built into my HDTV set, not a DirecTV receiver. This occured more on sports broadcasts than recorded TV shows. I am in central New Jersey, which is served by the NYC broadcast stations - the flagship stations of all the major networks.

-I have personally seen loss of sync on Comcast digital cable and on demand.

-Back when DVDs were new, before I had a stand-alone DVD player, I had a Creative DVD drive and decoder card in my PC. I had loss of sync on the Creative card at least once. I had loss of sync on a Sigma Labs Hollywood Plus DVD decoder card. I had a loss of sync in software players (once I had a CPU fast enough to decode in software).

-Sometimes MPEG4 video files played on my computer aften lose sync after playing for a while. I have had this happen with different MPEG4 CODECs, different players, different machines, etc. And then I have had the same video files that lose sync other times not lose sync.

-I have had MPEG1 VCD, MPEG2 SVCD, and MPEG4 CDs that I burned myself lose sync on hardware DVD players. Some players seemed to be more prone than others (an Apex-brand one even did it with pressed DVDs).

Personally, I don't experience the sync issues with DirecTV to the extent that others are reporting. It happens infrequently enough that I would consider it a "one off". So what does this mean? Probablly not a whole lot, other than maybe I'm luckier that others may be (with DirecTV) and maybe unlucker than others (with other sources). My observations are just that -- observations.

If you have an instance of lost sync, and you feel so inclined, report it. Just keep in mind that the person who answers the phone or email has praticlly no chance of resolving it for you on that call or in a reply to that email. Don't take your frustrations out of them. I'm sure that they're going to try to help you the best that they can, which is to say, not at all, relatively speaking. You know that already going in. The CSR doesn't have a magic button that will fix everything. Just calmly explain what's happening, that its happened before, comes and goes, and any observations you have made. Maybe the representative will take down the information or maybe they won't. Does it really matter? Probablly not. Its not something that someone is going to be able to fix just for you. If anything, you're offering another data point. That being said, email is probablly the most efficient method of contact.

I'm sure that DirecTV is working on resolving this. They have some very smart people who know more about the technology that they use that any of us could even imagine. If there was a simple switch that they could flip to fix this they would have done that by now. Are there some problems that are within DirecTV's control? Absolutely. Are there problems that are not (such as supplier problems, customer premesis equipment, sun spots...)? Absolutely. Reality is that things break, they don't always work as designed, and most of the time the performance in the lab doesn't match real-world production performance.

HD is a new technology. MPEG4 is a relatively new technology. The H2x/HR2x boxes are relatively new products. There will be some bumps along the road. This might sound harsh, but if you're not able to accept that there will be problems, maybe you should consider switching providers. However, if you stay for the ride, you're sure to find a good outcome.

[luckydob]

How many years do we have to wait for this "good outcome" to arrive? The real question is why do I have to continue paying for beta testing?

HD is not new...it's been here for years.

[cawgijoe]

lol. You may not like my responses but that doesnt mean they're useless or incorrect. The friend here spoke with a Technical CSR, on top of that, they spoke with a Technical CSR who acutally KNEW what they are talking about. If you'll take a moment to CONSIDER that when you call DirecTV, you call a CALL CENTER, and not some big corporate building where all these DirecTV officials work, and you get someone who was busy at their desk and their phone rang so they stopped what they were doing to help you, you'll understand what im saying. Beleive it or not, there are Engineers, Installers, CSR's, Customers, and even corporate bigwigs that frequent this board. Take Earl for example, as far as we are all aware, he does have personal contact with atleast one, if not a team, of ACTUAL engineers at DirecTV. Not very many other people have that kind of contact. They've got numbers for D* call centers. Maybe a direct line for Tech Support or Level 2 but...

So, im sorry if you've got a chip on your shoulder, but, im not going anywhere.

Where's Earl when you need him?:)

For someone who seems to be all-knowing about all things Directv your comment came across as extremely callous. If I overreacted to it, I apologize, however I don't understand how you can make judgements and dismiss conversations that you were not even involved in.

With all due respect, it sounds like you have already made up your mind that there is no way to get real answers from Directv.

According to my friend he spoke to Level 2 Tech Support.......I believe him.

[cawgijoe]

I don't know.

Try this out tomorrow. Play the audio through his home theater system as straight and bypassed as you can. In other words, leave it in the loop but turn off all of the audio processing. I want two channel straight audio. See if that makes a difference and let us know.

A receiver now-a-days has buffers built into it, certainly audio and maybe video. My Yamaha can step everything up to 1080p. There's bound to be a buffer to do that job. Plus there are audio delays built into Dolby Digital. Those steps in the receiver's menu about setting how far the speakers are away from you? You are setting delay times (1 foot = 1 millisecond). That's a buffer. Finally, a lot of HT receivers have audio modes to make your room sound bigger. If your buddy has one of those engaged, that's more delay.

Check and see if his audio follows or precedes his video. That will tell us a lot.

God, life was easier when I was into high-end audio and television was a Sony coffee table sized projector shooting onto a 50" curved screen. Give me a properly set up turntable and a straight wire with gain anytime. :grin:

Will do and will report back. The receiver he has is the same as mine, Denon AVR-3300 so it's old and doesn't have any AV sync delay, but it does have the delays you mention above for timing to the speakers.

Thanks.

[cawgijoe]

I like Texasbrit's response above.....I believe he is a "Techknow" on Directv's fourms........Texasbrit......please correct me if I'm wrong.

[wavemaster]

The "it's the industry" is all well and good. My check goes to directtv. They have people monitor every channel and when it leaves the uplinks they have TOTAL control of it to their box, and via HDMI cable to the TV. They should embed their own sync signal. They can launch birds, keep them in orbit, and embed all kinds of things in the stream, there is no reason why THEY couldn't pioneer the specification.

Then they could use it as a sales tool. All you poor suckers that bought into this technology (me included) can now be saved by DirectTV.

I don't see it often on Digital Cable, so infrequent it is, I would usually guess source.

I see it RARELY on the MPEG2 signal on DirectTV, only the new channels have it bad and often.

[Carl Spock]

I like Texasbrit's response above.....I believe he is a "Techknow" on Directv's fourms........Texasbrit......please correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaking out of turn, I think he's also Texasbrit over there. I've run into him on the DirecTV forums under that name. I also like his answer, as I do trekologer's.

The "it's the industry" is all well and good. My check goes to directtv. They have people monitor every channel and when it leaves the uplinks they have TOTAL control of it to their box, and via HDMI cable to the TV. They should embed their own sync signal. They can launch birds, keep them in orbit, and embed all kinds of things in the stream, there is no reason why THEY couldn't pioneer the specification.
Not a bad idea and not an unreasonable request but it is a hell of a lot easier to demand, design and implement new technology in 76 words on an Internet board than it is in real life. You'd still be waiting at least 3 years for your solution to become a reality. Product cycles in Japan are 18-24 months. In other words, from the moment you decide you are going to build something until it is on the market, it's that long. The last "drop dead" change date is 7-9 months from the time it hits the market. By the time your sync system is designed, tested, re-designed and re-tested, and then built into products, we're probably looking longer than 3 years. You can argue they should have done this years ago. But they didn't and neither did Dish or any cable system. You want to blame somebody? Blame the Grand Alliance. The Grand Alliance was an industry group back in the '90s that developed HDTV and didn't institute a sync standard back then. That's when it should have been established. Oops. Big oops.

How many years do we have to wait for this "good outcome" to arrive? The real question is why do I have to continue paying for beta testing?

HD is not new...it's been here for years.
My bet is most of the problems will be worked out in 90 days. I have nothing to base this on except that the sync problems have become fewer over the past 30 days. Give them a few more months and the majority will go away. But be prepared to go through this again when D11 is launched and brought online. Hopefully the teething period will be shorther but I wouldn't expect it. That will only lead to being upset all over again.

To fully solve this problem? 7-10 years. As has been said upthread, there is no sync standard in HDTV and that will need to be established and put into production for the problem to be eliminated. And then to get this new standard implemented by everyone? Add another 10 years. Hell, my local Fox station is only broadcasting in SDTV, the cheap http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/censored.gif. I've got to get them to HDTV before we can even worry about sync problems. :rolleyes:

luckydob, while I agree that HDTV is not brand new technology, its continued implementation is new. How long has the D10 satellite been broadcasting? A matter of months? How long have most of the new HD satellite stations been broadcasting? A few weeks? And just when the engineers think they've got a new problem licked, an old one comes back and bites them in the butt. With three decades in the consumer electronics industry, I've seen that over and over again.

It took 10 years for automatic color circuitry to be added to color TVs. Before that, you got up and adjusted the hue and saturation for each show. It took 7 years before I heard a CD player that I could even tolerate the sound of, and a few more until there was one I wanted to buy. Dolby Surround was initially old quadraphonic SQ decoding rehashed. It took another 5 years until we at least got Dolby Pro Logic steering, which finally beat the logic steering back in the '70s. It takes years for technology to mature and be perfected, and just when you think you've got everything figured out, switches go bad one more time and a shuttle launch is delayed at least a month.

In many ways we were lulled to sleep on this one. I have said before that the sync problems we are seeing now pale in comparison to those we saw in the earlier part of this decade. Engineers at the few HD channels on satellite and cable and at your local broadcast stations figured the problem out and through mostly trial and error, eliminated those sync problems. We got complacent over sync problems in the middle part of the decade. HDTV generally worked pretty well. But in the past few months there has been an explosion of HD broadcasts out there on all media and the sync problems are back. Fortunately for most of us, not on all stations. Not even on a majority of stations. But for many of us they are definitely there on some stations and they are hugely frustrating. Through trial and error, again they will be corrected. You can say it's not right but given our track record at bringing on line new technology, maybe this should have been expected.

But of course we didn't. I have no way of knowing but I suspect that the people most surprised by how bad the sync problems are right now are the engineers at DirecTV, Dish, Comcast, etc. They thought they had this one figured out. Sorry. The good news is they figured this out before. They'll figure it out again.

[GregLee]

... surprised by how bad the sync problems are right now ...
Are they really that bad? How can you tell? Not from the postings in this thread, obviously, because you're not hearing much from people who don't experience the problems.

[Carl Spock]

^ A glass more than half full kind of Greg. I like that a lot, as a Gregg. :D

Agreed, most peope and most channels don't have the problem. But the sync problems are common enough to be predictable. I'll make one right here. This afternoon, from 12 PM to 3 PM PST, go to the Versus HD/Golf HD channel, #604, and try and watch the golf match. It should be a good one. Tiger is in this tournament. But I will bet you 100 quatloos that there will be a terrible audio sync problem on this broadcast. And yet, when the same equipment is used Saturday on NBC, I will further bet the sync will be perfect, at least on my OTA reception. Now that's frustrating. It seems so fixable a problem. But then what do I know? I just post on an Internet board.

[Skins Fan]

Many years ago, more than I want to remember, I was involved with the development of an early satellite communications system (including video) for the gov. We experienced the same intermittent audio delay problems then as now. Without going into specifics (because I don't remember them anyway) dealing with all kinds noise cancelling and interference algorithms written to make the service more reliable, they in fact caused other problems, like audio and lip sync delay. This was all before compression, but did involve encryption. Believe me the government was no more unhappy then we are today. There were very bright people in Bell Labs that figured things out and established a satellite system that was the forerunner of what we have today. What I am saying is welcome to the "bleeding edge". The bright people are still out there and if we see it and know it, they do too and will be/are trying to figure it out. Of course, as we know, the poor CSR's, be they sales or techs, will not have the foggiest idea what is going on. Just take a deep breath, do complain because it helps but think of yourself as a pioneer--- I can already remember when the guide wouldn't give us local station information and the video and audio dropped out every 10 minutes or more ----Remember? This too shall pass!:)

[JeffBowser]

Nice, cooler heads are prevailing on this thread. Good info guys, good attitude !

[texasbrit]

I like Texasbrit's response above.....I believe he is a "Techknow" on Directv's fourms........Texasbrit......please correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, that's me.
Trekologer - I very much agree with your post.......

[cody21]

Received a reply from DirectTV CSR --

"Thanks for writing and letting us know about what you've been experiencing with your HR20 and H20 receivers. You've been with us since 11/20/97 and we want you to know we recognize you as a valued customer. I'm sorry to hear if you're having audio drop out and lip sync issues.

You can reset your receiver because it often corrects the problem. On some DIRECTV receivers there is a reset button inside of the access card door. If your receiver has a reset button, you can simply press it to reset your receiver. If there is not a button inside the access card door or pressing the button does not correct the problem, try these steps to reset your receiver:

1. Leave the receiver box on.
2. Unplug the receiver from the electrical outlet. (If your receiver's light is still on, you have pulled the wrong plug.)
3. Leave receiver unplugged for 15 seconds.
4. Reconnect it to the electrical outlet and return to normal viewing.

If it didn't fix the problem, please call our technical support center at 1-800-531-5000 and select the option for technical assistance. Also, you may find some helpful information at the DIRECTV Technical Help forums. Just visit http://forums.directv.com/pe/index.jsp to find answers to your questions.

Thanks again for writing, we appreciate your patience and hope we're able to fix the problem quickly. "

............ they clearly don't Get It....... These problems are intermittent, not persistant... Resetting the receivers does NOT fix this problem.

[SPACEMAKER]

I don't know if this applies here but I have sync issues with my OTA PBS station that are worse than what I get with DirecTV. Also, it seems that TNT and TBS are worse than my other channels.

[bhelton71]

Where does everyone feel the sync is lost ?

I assume there would be no delay introduced by the satellite since it is just retransmitting an already encoded/multiplexed signal.

At the headend:
How much delay could get introduced when re-encoding MPEG2 video to Mpeg4 video ? And does anyone see sync issues with Smithsonian channel for example - where the originating broadcast is already MPEG4 ?

At the receiver:
How much delay could get introduced when demultiplexing and splitting to HDMI audio, optical spdif, and the analog audio ? I assume it takes longer to decode MPEG4 video - then build the frames. Then - does it take longer to send video by HDMI or analog component video ? HDMI has all of the handshaking, packetizing, etc, and obviously component has the addition digital to analog conversion.

Also - I don't know how many people have a similar setup - I use HDMI for video, and optical spdif for audio - I can't say I have seen a lot of delay between audio and video. However I watch primarily OTA programming downstairs. On the upstairs set - I normally watch shows muted with closed-captioning enabled. That does have a huge delay - pretty sure it is around 15-30 secs - not sure if there is any relation between audio and cc - or if cc is keyed off of video. The set is connected by HDMI for both video and audio.


This is kind of fun also -

NTSC’s Problems Were Fixed in Just 54 Years
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0081/t.9891.html

[cody21]

I only seem to experieince this on the MPEG4 channels. I tested this theory by switching my FAVS to SD-only channels for a few days. I *never* had a lip-sync issue on the MPEG2 channels during that test. I swicthed back to the regular MPEG4 channels and within an hour started seeing this problem again on CNNHD. Both on my H20 & HDMI connection, and my HR20 & Component - at exactly the same time on both receivers.

PS - DD5.1 is turned OFF on my H20

[psweig]

Turned Dolby Digital off on the HR20, switched channels and then back to TWC-HD and the sync is "almost" on. Turned Dolby back on, and again switched channels and back, and its still almost on. Obviously much better than the 1/4 second it was off last night.

As far as HDMI vs Toslink, I have both hooked up simultaneously. The audio through my 5.1 system (toslink) and TV (HDMI) are both in perfect harmony.

+1

[sr6376]

GiJoe, my original comments came across as combative (page2 or so on this thread) when that really wasn't my intention. Sometimes comments on forums, not matter how innocent they seem when you are typing them, come across differently to someone else reading them (not sure if it was you upset about my comments, or someone else, etc). But anyways, on to my reason for this post.

I have a Samsung DLP tv. If I connect my H20 receiver to my tv and have sound and video come over the tv (not my stereo), sound and video are "synced" on almost all channels. However, the HDTV channels that are problematic are still problematic in this setup.

If I connect my H20 to my tv for video, and my stereo receiver for sound, I have a sync problem on ALL channels (HD or otherwise!). This is a known issue with Samsung DLP tv's from the 2006 model and previous (their model HL-R or before). The video processor in the tv is ever so much slower to put the picture on the screen than my receiver (if I had to guess, it's 10-20 milliseconds). The HD channels that are problematic are SIGNIFICANTLY worse than this.

It appears that Samsung has a built-in audio delay to sync the sound to the video, but obviously this is only in place when sound is coming from the tv speakers directly. If I have sound coming through my stereo system, the delay is not there, and the sound always precedes the video.

I wonder if your friend has a similar situation with his tv? What type of tv does he have? Also, if you are going to test your friends setup, check some of the worst offenders to this sync issue (CNNHD, DiscoveryHD, etc) when going through the stereo and tv speakers. Even try to have both sound sources playing at the same time if this is even possible?

[sr6376]

Where does everyone feel the sync is lost ?

I assume there would be no delay introduced by the satellite since it is just retransmitting an already encoded/multiplexed signal.



Someone else can confirm this possibly, but I believe that the sound and video are broadcast in separate signals and re-linked well down the line on the way to your tv. Not sure if D* sends separate signals to the sat/receiver or if they send the signals together, but others may be able to shed light on that one?

[Mrmiami]

Don't know what to say other than I didn't watch the USA channel last night and haven't had any lipsync issues in ages other than one problem with a local channel that was an issue with their feed to DirecTV (it happened on the OTA also).


You don't even have them after FF recorded DVR program? Wow, I have nothing but lately and it makes watching a recorded concert very hard to watch back. It's actually quite sickening and really cheapens the unit itself not to mention a little embarassing to have the whole family laughing at my $20,000.00 dollar setup when things just don't quite mesh up. Someone made a refrence to watching old time kung fu movies and you know that hit's the mark-spot on! I hope they address it very, very soon it's bad enough we don't even have the duel live buffers originally promised but for need to get it working right as single unit first and here we are a little over a year later still with sync problems.

[Carl Spock]

Mrmiami, if you have spent that kind of money and your are having those kind of problems, you really should get somebody to look at your system. You have problems beyond the normal here.

For the majority of folks, lip sync problems are generally confined to a few channels or groups of channels (all local HD LILs, for example) or maybe the odd program here and there. If most everything you watch has lip sync problems, and while you don't say this you certainly imply it, you have something else going on - a bad DVR, a flaw in the setup, something.

I'd get a home theater specialist, not a DirecTV guy, to look at the system first. I'm biased, though. That's my job. Too bad I'm in western Wisconsin.

Changing gears, half of my prediction upthread was right. There is a lip sync problem with the golf match right now on channel 604. It's actually hard to tell with a golf match. You have to wait until the shoot they announcers or do an interview. You can't tell by the play of the golf. For example, when I saw the announcers on screen, the video was behind the audio, like you'd expect with normal lip sync problems. When I watched the match, the sound was often behind the video. That's because the mics may be 100-200 feet away from the golfer swinging his club and you have the relatively slow speed of sound though the air coming into play. Actually, sometimes the two problems offset each other and the video and sound sync exactly during play. Serendipity.

This is also a source problem, not a DirecTV one. The show on right before the golf match had perfect sync. Once the match started, so did the problem. At least Versus HD/Golf HD is predictable. Also, at least this match is in real HD. They had matches on this channel a few weeks ago that used stepped up SD stretched to 16:9. It looked awful. And it was out of sync. It was the worst of all worlds. :rolleyes:

I'm going to check at the end of the match and see what things look like. I want to see if the lip sync drifts or gets corrected over time. I'll also check NBC's broadcast tomorrow and post my results here.

[cartrivision]

So which is it here? Is it a combination.....audio before video......video before audio......or is there a common theme?

I'll need to pay more attention, because even though I have a 5.1 system, I rarely listen to what comes off the air or dish through the AV system and I've rarely noticed lipsync problems. There are no lipsync issues with Blu-Ray through my PS3 or regular DVD through my Sony DVP-S9000ES.

I will play with the audio on my HR20 tonight through my receiver.

Since this post, I started noting which type of delay I was seeing, and it was both, but more often the video was ahead of the audio, meaning that the "sync fixers" discussed above would be useless for fixing the problem most of the time.

[GregLee]

This afternoon, from 12 PM to 3 PM PST, go to the Versus HD/Golf HD channel, #604, and try and watch the golf match. It should be a good one. Tiger is in this tournament. But I will bet you 100 quatloos that there will be a terrible audio sync problem on this broadcast. ...
I just now watched about 5 minutes of this. My estimate is that the sound was one quarter second behind the picture. (Edit: Looking at your more recent post, I see I should be more specific -- I was judging by watching the swing of the club and listening for the accompanying click or swoosh sound.)

[Carl Spock]

You may want to check my post upthread a few. It depends on when you're watching the match as to whether the audio or video is first.

Edit: I was back watching the golf and I'd swear that during the commercials the video preceded the audio. That's backwards from where it was before. Now I'm totally confused. I'm blaming it all on Marcel Marceau.

I'm meeting friends for dinner. I'm recording this so I'll watch it more closely when I get back. Fortunately, my DVR rarely introduces sync problems and those are solved by the pause trick.

[CJTE]

Where's Earl when you need him?:)

For someone who seems to be all-knowing about all things Directv your comment came across as extremely callous. If I overreacted to it, I apologize, however I don't understand how you can make judgements and dismiss conversations that you were not even involved in.

With all due respect, it sounds like you have already made up your mind that there is no way to get real answers from Directv.

According to my friend he spoke to Level 2 Tech Support.......I believe him.

Tier 2 Technical and Engineer. Different label, different department, maybe even a whole different company.
That was my point. I beleive your friend talked to someone in Tier 2, 100%. I dont beleive he/she talked to an engineer, and quite honestly, im too drunk to remember the other points of my post, so...
Im glad we got that settled.

[cawgijoe]

Ok....it's been a long day.....just got back from the company Christmas party and I didn't win the 19" HDTV they were giving away! Oh well, the food and drink were good!

I went to my friend's house this morning and we installed his new Winegard UHF antenna on the roof and for those familar with the Fairfax area in Northern VA, we were even able to pull in the Baltimore area channels....albeit weak of course, but there! Very cool.

I checked out his lipsync problem and it is definitely intermittent as NBC this morning was spot on...no issues. Apparently the worst offender appears to be the Discovery Channel. He has a recording of one of the European Travel programs that is definitely off. The video is ahead of the audio, but not by much, but very dicernable.

On the same channel if you have the TV volume on at the same time as the receiver passing Dolby Digital or regular Stereo, there is a reverb because both are slightly off.

So it doesn't matter whether the receiver is decoding Dolby Digital or not....the lip sync is still there.

Now......here is another test we performed........watching the Discovery Channel live.....the lip sync present.....he was able to switch channels and the audio would sync back up again until the buffer in the HR21 was full.

The audio/video sync also appears to be less of an issue when playing direct through the TV's speakers. It's more apparent going through the receiver.

He has two systems:

Sony 52" XBR4
Directv HR21
Denon AVR-3300

Sony 40" W3000
Directv H21
-nor receiver-

Right now I see three options:

Buy a new receiver with audio delay built in.
Buy a "black box" to control the lip sync.
Wait to see if anything is fixed by the transmitter's/provider's.

He is going for the third option for now.

My personal opinion is that in order to get rid of lip sync for good, the audio and video needs to be linked at the start of the transmission and not fixed at the receiving end. That's the real solution. Even though it's not in the Dolby "spec", I'm sure it can be done.

In the meantime, he will listen to most of his shows through the TV's speakers rather then the receiver.

[Mrmiami]

Mrmiami, if you have spent that kind of money and your are having those kind of problems, you really should get somebody to look at your system. You have problems beyond the normal here.

For the majority of folks, lip sync problems are generally confined to a few channels or groups of channels (all local HD LILs, for example) or maybe the odd program here and there. If most everything you watch has lip sync problems, and while you don't say this you certainly imply it, you have something else going on - a bad DVR, a flaw in the setup, something.

I'd get a home theater specialist, not a DirecTV guy, to look at the system first. I'm biased, though. That's my job. Too bad I'm in western Wisconsin.

Changing gears, half of my prediction upthread was right. There is a lip sync problem with the golf match right now on channel 604. It's actually hard to tell with a golf match. You have to wait until the shoot they announcers or do an interview. You can't tell by the play of the golf. For example, when I saw the announcers on screen, the video was behind the audio, like you'd expect with normal lip sync problems. When I watched the match, the sound was often behind the video. That's because the mics may be 100-200 feet away from the golfer swinging his club and you have the relatively slow speed of sound though the air coming into play. Actually, sometimes the two problems offset each other and the video and sound sync exactly during play. Serendipity.

This is also a source problem, not a DirecTV one. The show on right before the golf match had perfect sync. Once the match started, so did the problem. At least Versus HD/Golf HD is predictable. Also, at least this match is in real HD. They had matches on this channel a few weeks ago that used stepped up SD stretched to 16:9. It looked awful. And it was out of sync. It was the worst of all worlds. :rolleyes:

I'm going to check at the end of the match and see what things look like. I want to see if the lip sync drifts or gets corrected over time. I'll also check NBC's broadcast tomorrow and post my results here.

Well, yes, I did spend "that" kind of money on my system and spending more money to have someone come in and tell me to buy better cables, shorten the lengths being used and use heavier gauge speaker wire would be a waste of money since that has already been done many,many years ago. That is about all you will get as a suggested remedy for sync issues.

Aside from all that, much of your experience above sounds like your referring to "Live" TV ( doesn't mention if this is after a pause or program is recorded) Live TV I do not really have many problems with I guess that would be why I suspect the 2 HR20-700's I have to be the suspects. My problems with sync issues occur on DVR Recorded programs or coming out of a pause (which also means it's recorded from that point on) as I mentioned before in my other post. Tried all suggestions to FF,RW and reset remedies it always comes back so the lip sync issues to me are quite a big issue for me in terms of a "Functional" DVR unit. For 3 smackers a piece I would have expected more from the unit as far as audio matching video. If your units are operating almost flawlessly (except on the Golf channel) then I applaude you but you are in a minority here cause I am hearing quite a few complaints on this issue which means it's probably 10 times that amount figuring in the owners who are unaware of this site.

[Carl Spock]

Pardon me for trying to help. :rolleyes: And thank you for dismissing my entire industry.

Along with everyone else who is happy with their DVRs.

But then, I'm so stupid I think there are people who know more than me and I'm willing to pay them for their help and advice.

BTW, there is no such thing as "Live" TV on our DVRs. Everything is always playing off of the hard drive.

[SPACEMAKER]

I turned off DD and everything seems a bit better. The easiest programming to spot sync issues is golf and it was much better Friday than Thursday.

[wavemaster]

Two points I have that seem to be overlooked again and again.

If this was a source issue, I would see it on the HD Cable at the same time. I have both so I can compare the two with a flick of a switch. Yes, sometimes (mostly with local affiliates) you can see it on each, but more often than not, it's in the HR20.

Also, when you can "pause", rew, play etc. to get it to sync again, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SOURCE!

Also, if it was the source, it would be off in the SAME place at the SAME time over and over and over. In the HR20 on the MPEG4's it is very random. It can be off, you pause it, rewind it, pause it etc., and the same spot will be in sync again.

So could ANY of you that believe this is "an industry problem" and "it's the source" explain how the two points above can be?

[jwd45244]

So could ANY of you that believe this is "an industry problem" and "it's the source" explain how the two points above can be?

The issue is that it could well be both a source problem for some programs and somewhere else for some other instance.

Just because you have seen the cable be OK and DirecTV not does not mean anything in particular. The problem is that there are countless spots where the audio and video can get out of sync. Where DirecTV can do something about it they should. However, there is no "Balm in Gilead" for this issue.

[wavemaster]

What about,

Also, if it was the source, it would be off in the SAME place at the SAME time over and over and over. In the HR20 on the MPEG4's it is very random. It can be off, you pause it, rewind it, pause it etc., and the same spot will be in sync again.

[Carl Spock]

Good point.

With my golf prediction yesterday I was saying the sync problem was at the same place and the same time. CNN HD and TWC HD have been predictable in their having sync problems although both have been cleaning up their act lately.

I agree with you - some of the problems are seemingly random and unpredictable. There is a good possibility many of those lay on DirecTV's doorstep.

What people like texasbrit and Trekologer were saying is that the sync problem is more than just DirecTVs problem. I know I have experienced sync issues on cable and with OTA broadcasts.

Nobody is saying DirecTV is blameless in this matter. DirecTV has their own sync issues to deal with. All folks are saying that is that the sync problem is bigger than just DirecTV.

[Matt9876]

With the sync issue cause crossing so many lines in the sand,"provider,DVR delays,software delay,customer audio equipment and no real sync code in HD codec, etc".

One thing is for sure this sync topic will be around a very long time.:grin:

[wavemaster]

As always ggergm you make good points. I think you have a better understanding than most of the posters on this issue.

Every one of these "sync" threads end up being the same, it's the industry - deal with it. Could we agree on a few things and then focus on the actual issue?

1. It's an industry issue - <joe-vs-volcano> "I'm not arguing that point with you"
2. It's at the source - <joe-vs-volcano> "I'm not arguing that point with you"
3. It's your audio - <joe-vs-volcano> "I'm not arguing that point with you"

My point is when we RECORD something at a point in time and view it later, if it WAS the source, it would ALWAYS be the same. In the case of the new MPEG4 channels it is not. It can be improved by "pausing", "clicking your heels" etc. If it was the source, it would ALWAYS be the same.

When I see it in HD on cable in PERFECT sync, and switch to the SAME channel on DTV and it is out of sync but randomly and NOT repeatable, IT IS NOT THE SOURCE.

And one point of your statement,

"Nobody is saying DirecTV is blameless in this matter. DirecTV has their own sync issues to deal with. All folks are saying that is that the sync problem is bigger than just DirecTV."

Is a little off. There have actually been a bunch of cheerleaders here state it has nothing to do with DirectTV and it's the industry, our setup, or in our heads, or the best one yet, "it's just TV and you shouldn't let it bother you".

[Budget_HT]

Listening to all of these experiences suggests to me that perhaps there is some kind of sync problem when transcoding from MPEG-2 source video to MPEG-4 video. Many of us have experienced difficulties on computers establishing and maintaining sync after processing audio and video separately.

I know for a fact that there are widespread sync problems for MPEG-2 HD video and DD 5.1 or 2.0 audio. But I believe that there may be some unique sync problems with the video conversion to MPEG-4.

[SteveEJ]

Pardon me for trying to help. :rolleyes: And thank you for dismissing my entire industry.

Along with everyone else who is happy with their DVRs.

But then, I'm so stupid I think there are people who know more than me and I'm willing to pay them for their help and advice.

BTW, there is no such thing as "Live" TV on our DVRs. Everything is always playing off of the hard drive.

What about the sync issues on the H20? I have seen them on it as well.

Mpeg4 seems to be, at least partially, a common denominator. Mpeg4 DirecTV broadcast and Mpeg4 HD Locals OTA. Analog locals OK.. HD locals out of sync on DVR and Non-DVR receivers. Add to this just plain audio drops or breakups.

The problem is not just DVR's but other HD/Mpeg4 receivers.

Just my observations..:)

[scottjf8]

Starz HD sync has to be the absolute worst. I can't even watch a single movie on Starz because the sync is soooooo bad.

[SteveEJ]

That's where it gets funny.. Starz HD for you and TWCHD for me (today) then NFLHD tomorrow. This is why it is no hard to troubleshoot. I do believe that it is a byproduct of MPeg4 decoding. It could be a processor loading issue due to the additional cycles required to decode the video, etc. It could be a memory transfer (DMA) issue in the hardware, it could be buffering of the processors or not enough buffering. Any of these and other types of problems could create these issues. I do no one thing, Having these boxes, with their limited hardware, adding all of the new features the programmers are adding is pushing the envelope! I would rather have less features and a rock solid device than alot of potentially good features and an intermittantly bad receiver.

Just another opinion..

[Dazed & Confused]

As always ggergm you make good points. I think you have a better understanding than most of the posters on this issue.

Every one of these "sync" threads end up being the same, it's the industry - deal with it. Could we agree on a few things and then focus on the actual issue?

1. It's an industry issue - <joe-vs-volcano> "I'm not arguing that point with you"
2. It's at the source - <joe-vs-volcano> "I'm not arguing that point with you"
3. It's your audio - <joe-vs-volcano> "I'm not arguing that point with you"

My point is when we RECORD something at a point in time and view it later, if it WAS the source, it would ALWAYS be the same. In the case of the new MPEG4 channels it is not. It can be improved by "pausing", "clicking your heels" etc. If it was the source, it would ALWAYS be the same.

When I see it in HD on cable in PERFECT sync, and switch to the SAME channel on DTV and it is out of sync but randomly and NOT repeatable, IT IS NOT THE SOURCE.

And one point of your statement,

"Nobody is saying DirecTV is blameless in this matter. DirecTV has their own sync issues to deal with. All folks are saying that is that the sync problem is bigger than just DirecTV."

Is a little off. There have actually been a bunch of cheerleaders here state it has nothing to do with DirectTV and it's the industry, our setup, or in our heads, or the best one yet, "it's just TV and you shouldn't let it bother you".

Or better yet, how about the people on this board that claim not to have the problem at all. Even everyone's favorite poster Earl has chimed in on this aspect of the discussion in another thread, and I quote:

"As for the audio-sync issue.
Well... I guess we should have a thread for all those that don't have the problem to pipe in.... just to make it known that it is not happening to everyone...."

Think about that statement for a minute....If true, then the source, codec, all that stuff is suddenly eliminated as the problem unless it can selectively be in synch at some homes, but not others.

BTW...I do not actually believe there are people not affected by this issue, but that is what they claim.

[nevea2be]

I have to say I have no where near as many sych issues with Direct TV as I had with Comcast. Every now and then it'll happen with the channel 5 Patriots pregame show when they are carrying the game but I know for sure it's not on my end and they do correct it.

As far as other times a simple click of the pause button for a brief moment and then a hit of the play button clears that right up.


So far though I only have the audio going straight to my TV through my HDMI connection and not my receiver so that could change.

[L2BENGTREK]

Starz HD sync has to be the absolute worst. I can't even watch a single movie on Starz because the sync is soooooo bad.

+1

95% of my sync problems of been on the STARZ HD channels. Ricky Bobby has been the worst culprit. Kinda funny though...lately things have been fine with the channels, Blade was right on sync last night. Guess I'll knock on wood!

[gregjones]

What about,

Also, if it was the source, it would be off in the SAME place at the SAME time over and over and over. In the HR20 on the MPEG4's it is very random. It can be off, you pause it, rewind it, pause it etc., and the same spot will be in sync again.

Do we know that a particular channel (i.e., Discovery HD) provides the exact same feed to the cable company as they do to DirecTV? Is cable pulling a satellite backhaul and DirecTV getting something via fiber that may or may not be encoded differently?

I do not have the answer but it is worth asking.

Blaming DirecTV for all of this is not going to help, necessarily. Most here seem to want to blame them indiscriminately. There are a lot of variables not being discussed that do play a part in this:

latency to the audio system
latency in the TV digital input
latency in the HDMI input on the TV


And I have never had a synch issue with my HR20-700 except coming out of a pause. Then it was rare and only momentary. I chalked that up to my being on a CE more than anything else.

[JeffBowser]

Also, don't forget, it goes all the way back up the chain - my cousin is a HD camera engineer at Panavision, and he can tell some good stories. There is no sync standard during digital filming, even. So right from the very beginning, there are problems. When you realize the problem runs all the way back up the chain, it becomes just one big joke watching people get all foaming at the mouth at DirecTV and DirecTV alone.

[Impala1ss]

I believe some of the posters on this thread listen to the sound through their TV while many listen through their A/V system. How about all posters stating how they listen. Maybe we can reduce the potential problems to specific areas.

[cody21]

What about the sync issues on the H20? I have seen them on it as well.

Mpeg4 seems to be, at least partially, a common denominator. Mpeg4 DirecTV broadcast and Mpeg4 HD Locals OTA. Analog locals OK.. HD locals out of sync on DVR and Non-DVR receivers. Add to this just plain audio drops or breakups.

The problem is not just DVR's but other HD/Mpeg4 receivers.

Just my observations..:)

EXACTLY !! That was my initial thread over on the H20/H21 forum over 3 weeks ago ... and a POLL that I started which was moved/buried.... I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's MPEG4 ..... I do NOT have the problem (EVER) on SD or OTA - I test this by switching over to those other formats when I see the problem. I never had the problem on my HR10-250 - well seldom, anyway. Certainly not to the annoying levels I'm seeing it now. And I immediately started seeing this issue when DirectTV installed my H20 & HR20 2 months ago - back in October.

And this is directly connected to the TV. I removed my Stereo system from the connection when this issue started - just to make sure it wasn't something my system was introducing. I have DD turned OFF ... HDMI connection on 1 receiver, Component on the other.

[JeffBowser]

I have this problem frequently on OTA, fed directly to my TV tuner, straight from an antenna.
I'm just saying - there's more to this than the average lay-person realizes.

EXACTLY !! That was my initial thread over on the H20/H21 forum over 3 weeks ago ... and a POLL that I started which was moved/buried.... I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's MPEG4 ..... I do NOT have the problem (EVER) on SD or OTA - I test this by switching over to those other formats when I see the problem. I never had the problem on my HR10-250 - well seldom, anyway. Certainly not to the annoying levels I'm seeing it now. And I immediately started seeing this issue when DirectTV installed my H20 & HR20 2 months ago - back in October.

And this is directly connected to the TV. I removed my Stereo system from the connection when this issue started - just to make sure it wasn't something my system was introducing. I have DD turned OFF ... HDMI connection on 1 receiver, Component on the other.

[texasbrit]

I believe some of the posters on this thread listen to the sound through their TV while many listen through their A/V system. How about all posters stating how they listen. Maybe we can reduce the potential problems to specific areas.

The problems ARE in specific areas - all of them! The difficulty here is that people seem to want to place the responsibility for the out-of-sync issue in just one area. You can't do that. Out-of-sync issues can be created by:

1. Problems at the source. Most cases of video-before-audio are source problems. Many of the other cases are also. Good examples have been posted here - CNN split-screen having sync issues with the audio from one half and not the other, TWCHD having OK sync in commercials and not in the studio, local channels like NBC5 here in DFW having sync issues only with the local HD news, Discovery Science having two to three second out of sync only on certain programming. Sometimes there are source sync issues with both the HD and the SD programming, sometimes (usually) just on HD. If you get HD locals and the problem is only on one channel, it is almost certainly a source issue.

2. Problems in the distribution network. This could be at the channel, in the network's own distribution, in DirecTV. Much bigger problem on HD than SD, bigger problem on MPEG-4 than with MPEG-2 because of the additional buffering required.

3. Problems in your own equipment. Occasional sync bug in the DVRs (I have three DVRs and have only seen this twice despite the heavy load on the DVRs). Sync problems created by TV or A/V passthru receivers, usually with HD, or with HDMI buffering. Some TVs are worse than others - some Samsungs are OK if you use the TV speakers, because they seem to have a built-in audio delay, but are out of sync if you use an A/V receiver.

So you can't blame out-of-sync problems on just one thing.

Another couple of comments, from scientific studies. People are apparently much more sensitive to the video being delayed in relation to the audio than the other way round. Because light is faster than sound, we are used to seeing things earlier than we hear them. The other way round, when the audio comes first, is very distracting, and unfortunately that's what we usually get with digital TV sync issues. Second, unless they concentrate, many people can't immediately tell whether a small sync issue is audio leading the video or vice versa. Their senses tell them the two are not in sync but not necessarily which one comes first.

[jjohns]

This out of sync issue has been around for 1 to 2 years. Go ahead, look back a year. The same problems with the same audio-video sync. Everybody wants to say its this or that but I have a different perspective. I am leasing this box from DirecTV for a good bit of money. I am paying DirecTV over $135 a month to provide me the programming they so eloquently advertise. I'm not paying the source or the distribution chain. I'm paying DirecTV. I don't care what's causing it - I'm using D*'s box and paying for it. I'm paying D* for the programs. It's DirecTV's problem to fix. No one elses. That's who I'm paying quite a bit of money to. Seems to me they've had plenty of time to correct it and gotten plenty of my money in the mean time.

[JeffBowser]

deleted


This out of sync issue has been around for 1 to 2 years. Go ahead, look back a year. The same problems with the same audio-video sync. Everybody wants to say its this or that but I have a different perspective. I am leasing this box from DirecTV for a good bit of money. I am paying DirecTV over $135 a month to provide me the programming they so eloquently advertise. I'm not paying the source or the distribution chain. I'm paying DirecTV. I don't care what's causing it - I'm using D*'s box and paying for it. I'm paying D* for the programs. It's DirecTV's problem to fix. No one elses. That's who I'm paying quite a bit of money to. Seems to me they've had plenty of time to correct it and gotten plenty of my money in the mean time.

[hdtvfan0001]

The problems ARE in specific areas - all of them! The difficulty here is that people seem to want to place the responsibility for the out-of-sync issue in just one area. You can't do that.
An excellent post and great detailed information.

I've been saying this for over a year myself, but you did a far more articulate job of explaining it. Thanks.

[SteveEJ]

The problem is:
1 - The average Subscriber knows nothing about the technical issues.
2 - Doesn't read this board or any other about these issues.
3 - Doesn't want to read about these issues.
4 - Pays for a service.
5 - Wants that service to work properly.

Because of this DirecTV needs to address these issues as they are seen, by the average subscriber, as their issue and they (DirecTV) is at fault. All of the forums, letters, justifications or other reasons don't matter to them (the average, non-technical subscriber).

We, if not having a direct knowledge of the technical side, know something about it and even debate what the cause is. WE ARE THE MINORITY! So as much as some of us get upset, more will be getting more and more upset as time goes by. They know nothing about the smell. They just know that it stinks and needs to go away!

I know it will take a little time and that there are issues with feeds, Mpeg4/Dolby synch, etc.. I also know 'Garbage In Garbage Out'!

When we had a RADAR Tracking problem because of a change of equipment we had to build a sync circuit and sync test/adjust circuit to make things right. This not only fixed the current problem but many future problems because of lack of standardization issues that caused issues.

The moral of the story, DirecTV can ensure sync and add a checking signal for the decoders(HR-20's. etc) PRIOR TO UPLINK and fix these and some future issues if they want. They might be working on it right now. Doing this would fix the problem whether the problem is source or theirs.

Granted, this is WAY oversimplified, but it is possible.. Now for How it can be done and Not why it can't!

Just my humble opinion..

[texasbrit]

This out of sync issue has been around for 1 to 2 years. Go ahead, look back a year. The same problems with the same audio-video sync. Everybody wants to say its this or that but I have a different perspective. I am leasing this box from DirecTV for a good bit of money. I am paying DirecTV over $135 a month to provide me the programming they so eloquently advertise. I'm not paying the source or the distribution chain. I'm paying DirecTV. I don't care what's causing it - I'm using D*'s box and paying for it. I'm paying D* for the programs. It's DirecTV's problem to fix. No one elses. That's who I'm paying quite a bit of money to. Seems to me they've had plenty of time to correct it and gotten plenty of my money in the mean time.


I agree with the principle but some of these things DirecTV can't fix.
Source problems - all DirecTV can do is what we are doing here, complain, in their case to the channel. Maybe they can put some service levels in the agreements, I don't know. There's no way DirecTV can monitor that many channels in real-time and even if they did the provider probably does not have any way to fix the problems in real-time.
Distribution network issues - DirecTV can fix/improve any issues in its own network but the others are just like source issues.
Equipment issues - DirecTV should be able to fix the DVR delay issue (it's a software bug), but the rest of the equipment issues are your problem. Look at the number of A-V systems that now have A-V sync adjustments. There are several add-on boxes to do this also, and maybe when all the TV/A-V manufacturers start using HDMI 1.3 you can use the sync adjust to correct for this.

But even though I expect the A-V sync issues to reduce once everyone sorts out their individual issues, we will probably still be talking about audio-video sync issues next year, and the year after, and every year until the industry as a whole can develop a way of carrying the sync information in both the audio and video signals all the way to your TV.

[JeffBowser]

Seems that for every good post like Tex's and Steve's above (and others), a page later some rabid individual or individuals pop up screaming DirecTV better fix it and they don't care what the real issue behind it is, because, by God, they are spending money.

That's the frustrating thing to me - rational explanations getting drowned out in self-righteous emotions.

[SteveEJ]

Texasbrit:

What about this..

Signal is feed to DirecTV for uplink. There is Video, Audio (several components)

DirecTV puts in place a system that checks the overall sync quality. If out, adjusts to sync. Then adds a sync signal for the decoders. The modified decoders decodes it at the home/business and checks sync. Makes adjustments to circuits (HDMI, etc) and BLAM.. Everyone is happy. This is surely possible and doable with the proper expertise, time and money. This would put DirecTV on the leading edge!

Ideas? Possible?

[jjohns]

You lease a car from the Ford dealership and you have agreed to pay Ford so much a month and Ford provides you with a car. So your brakes start giving out and since you're paying Ford you expect them to fix it. So Ford goes through this long explanation of all the things that can go wrong with the brakes such as the metal used, the springs, etc. And Ford takes the position that since it's so complicated and all these things down the line can go wrong, it's not their responsibility to fix your brakes. For a year! You aren't paying the brake manufacturer - you are paying Ford. So Ford says, "You have to understand its so complicated and we don't have it fixed yet. And also, by the way, don't forget that next month's payment".

[JeffBowser]

:nono2: It's like talking to brick walls around here sometimes.

Your analogy is off by about 90 degrees.

You lease a car from the Ford dealership and you have agreed to pay Ford so much a month and Ford provides you with a car. So your brakes start giving out and since you're paying Ford you expect them to fix it. So Ford goes through this long explanation of all the things that can go wrong with the brakes such as the metal used, the springs, etc. And Ford takes the position that since it's so complicated and all these things down the line can go wrong, it's not their responsibility to fix your brakes. For a year! You aren't paying the brake manufacturer - you are paying Ford. So Ford says, "You have to understand its so complicated and we don't have it fixed yet. And also, by the way, don't forget that next month's payment".

[wavemaster]

Seems that for every good post like Tex's and Steve's above (and others), a page later some rabid individual or individuals pop up screaming DirecTV better fix it and they don't care what the real issue behind it is, because, by God, they are spending money.

That's the frustrating thing to me - rational explanations getting drowned out in self-righteous emotions.

And when the rabid poster points out they know the industry has problems, but can specifically show the randomness coming out of their HR20, another rabid poster comes in with self-righteous emotions and says it's the industry, not the DVR. Hmmm. I'm smelling a double standard here.

When you record something - IF IT WERE SOURCE - IT WOULD BE THE SAME OVER AND OVER and over. All the pausing, FF, REW etc. wouldn't change it or fix it and sure as hell wouldn't be different everytime you do. If it's source it would be repeatable, could we agree on that?

Why is this so hard to understand?

I have the luxury of working from home, so I see the stream 16hrs/day at least. I think a lot of users are normal and see the stream for 1-3 hrs a day, and don't see it as much.

[JeffBowser]

sigh :nono: I dunno what more to say. You are a sample of one. I am a sample of one. But taking into account everyone's sample up here, with studies I have seen from Panavisions engineering department and other recording industry sites and one gets a broader sense of what may be happening.
What I find so hard to understand is the blanket refusal to recognize the problem isn't as simple as screaming red-faced at the carriers like a bunch of spoiled children. What I can agree on, I suppose, is the lack of anyone else to scream at to bring more pressure on to fix the problem sooner rather than later, so the desire is to scream at your nearest upstream source. I guess I am just not the screaming type - it's a problem, sure, but it will get fixed when it gets fixed, I am confident they are not simply ignoring the problem, and that is good enough for me.


And when the rabid poster points out they know the industry has problems, but can specifically show the randomness coming out of their HR20, another rabid poster comes in with self-righteous emotions and says it's the industry, not the DVR. Hmmm. I'm smelling a double standard here.

When you record something - IF IT WERE SOURCE - IT WOULD BE THE SAME OVER AND OVER and over. All the pausing, FF, REW etc. wouldn't change it or fix it and sure as hell wouldn't be different everytime you do. If it's source it would be repeatable, could we agree on that?

Why is this so hard to understand?

I have the luxury of working from home, so I see the stream 16hrs/day at least. I think a lot of users are normal and see the stream for 1-3 hrs a day, and don't see it as much.

[SteveEJ]

Jeff,
What if DirecTV, when seeing at the uplink site, sees sync problems with the feed, puts a scrolling banner on the screen, or posts on a DirecTV News channel that XXX Feed to DirecTV's satellite uplink site has audio/video problems. For further information contact XXX at (xxx) xxx-xxx.

This would put the pressure where it needs to be. This would also identify problems with DirecTV!

Ideas?

[jjohns]

sigh :nono: I dunno what more to say. You are a sample of one. I am a sample of one. But taking into account everyone's sample up here, with studies I have seen from Panavisions engineering department and other recording industry sites and one gets a broader sense of what may be happening.
What I find so hard to understand is the blanket refusal to recognize the problem isn't as simple as screaming red-faced at the carriers like a bunch of spoiled children. What I can agree on, I suppose, is the lack of anyone else to scream at to bring more pressure on to fix the problem sooner rather than later, so the desire is to scream at your nearest upstream source. I guess I am just not the screaming type - it's a problem, sure, but it will get fixed when it gets fixed, I am confident they are not simply ignoring the problem, and that is good enough for me.


Not screaming "at your nearest upstream source" - Screaming at who I'm paying.

[JeffBowser]

In our case, it is one and the same. DirecTV.

Not screaming "at your nearest upstream source" - Screaming at who I'm paying.

[JeffBowser]

That sounds reasonable on the surface, but not being a true industry insider, I have no idea what the gotchas with doing that are.....

Jeff,
What if DirecTV, when seeing at the uplink site, sees sync problems with the feed, puts a scrolling banner on the screen, or posts on a DirecTV News channel that XXX Feed to DirecTV's satellite uplink site has audio/video problems. For further information contact XXX at (xxx) xxx-xxx.

This would put the pressure where it needs to be. This would also identify problems with DirecTV!

Ideas?

[SteveEJ]

Well.. Maybe someone, somewhere, with direct input might be reading here.. They might even get a 'Bonus' for innovative thinking! :)

[Upstream]

You lease a car from the Ford dealership and you have agreed to pay Ford so much a month and Ford provides you with a car. So your brakes start giving out and since you're paying Ford you expect them to fix it. So Ford goes through this long explanation of all the things that can go wrong with the brakes such as the metal used, the springs, etc. And Ford takes the position that since it's so complicated and all these things down the line can go wrong, it's not their responsibility to fix your brakes. For a year! You aren't paying the brake manufacturer - you are paying Ford. So Ford says, "You have to understand its so complicated and we don't have it fixed yet. And also, by the way, don't forget that next month's payment".


How about this analogy:

You lease a car from Ford, and you have problems stopping. So you take the car back to Ford and expect them to fix the brakes.

There is a problem with the brakes, so Ford should fix it.

But your tires are also worn, and maintaining/replacing the tires is your responsibility. So you don't yell at Ford about the tires, instead you replace them.

But your car still doesn't stop. So you complain to Ford, and they investigate, and find that your car doesn't stop because the road is covered with ice. There is no sense in complaining to Ford about the road; that's a community problem.

So even if Ford fixes what they can, and you fix what you can, there is still the community problem. But that doesn't excuse Ford from fixing what is their responsibility (the faulty brakes).

[JeffBowser]

Ah, I love it, terrific analogy, just beautiful !


How about this analogy:

You lease a car from Ford, and you have problems stopping. So you take the car back to Ford and expect them to fix the brakes.

There is a problem with the brakes, so Ford should fix it.

But your tires are also worn, and maintaining/replacing the tires is your responsibility. So you don't yell at Ford about the tires, instead you replace them.

But your car still doesn't stop. So you complain to Ford, and they investigate, and find that your car doesn't stop because the road is covered with ice. There is no sense in complaining to Ford about the road; that's a community problem.

So even if Ford fixes what they can, and you fix what you can, there is still the community problem. But that doesn't excuse Ford from fixing what is their responsibility (the faulty brakes).

[dhhaines]

Ah, I love it, terrific analogy, just beautiful !

How about this analogy:

You lease a car from Ford, and you have problems stopping. So you take the car back to Ford and expect them to fix the brakes.

There is a problem with the brakes, so Ford should fix it.

But your tires are also worn, and maintaining/replacing the tires is your responsibility. So you don't yell at Ford about the tires, instead you replace them.

But your car still doesn't stop. So you complain to Ford, and they investigate, and find that your car doesn't stop because the road is covered with ice. There is no sense in complaining to Ford about the road; that's a community problem.

So even if Ford fixes what they can, and you fix what you can, there is still the community problem. But that doesn't excuse Ford from fixing what is their responsibility (the faulty brakes).

Best analogy I've heard yet.... :goodjob:

[texasbrit]

Texasbrit:

What about this..

Signal is feed to DirecTV for uplink. There is Video, Audio (several components)

DirecTV puts in place a system that checks the overall sync quality. If out, adjusts to sync. Then adds a sync signal for the decoders. The modified decoders decodes it at the home/business and checks sync. Makes adjustments to circuits (HDMI, etc) and BLAM.. Everyone is happy. This is surely possible and doable with the proper expertise, time and money. This would put DirecTV on the leading edge!

Ideas? Possible?

The sync "watermark" has to be added at the studio or program source, or has to be encoded into the movie/program source. How is DirecTV going to check the overall sync quality? Have someone watching every channel (including all the locals) 24 hours a day? Then where is the sync info going to go? The spec for the audio track is not under DirecTVs control, it has to conform to the Dolby Digital spec. The spec for video is not under DirecTVs control either.
This is doable but only if it is an industry-wide standard, that is why the industry has set up these working groups. Once a "sync watermark" or similar system is developed, we will all need new equipment to handle the new signals. Ironically, the DirecTV boxes themselves don't even need to look at the "sync watermark", they just pass it through, so long as it is understood by the TV, and by an A/V receiver (connected to the TV via an HDMI 1.3 connection). The TV and A/V receiver can make any adjustments necessary.

[texasbrit]

And when the rabid poster points out they know the industry has problems, but can specifically show the randomness coming out of their HR20, another rabid poster comes in with self-righteous emotions and says it's the industry, not the DVR. Hmmm. I'm smelling a double standard here.

When you record something - IF IT WERE SOURCE - IT WOULD BE THE SAME OVER AND OVER and over. All the pausing, FF, REW etc. wouldn't change it or fix it and sure as hell wouldn't be different everytime you do. If it's source it would be repeatable, could we agree on that?

Why is this so hard to understand?

I have the luxury of working from home, so I see the stream 16hrs/day at least. I think a lot of users are normal and see the stream for 1-3 hrs a day, and don't see it as much.

Many of the examples I see ARE the source, they occur on the H20 receivers as well as the DVRs and they have nothing to do with recording - pause, rewind etc. I can tell you that no amount of rewinding, pausing etc will solve the problems seen only last week on CNNHD, TWCHD, NBC5 here in Dallas, Discovery Science and so on. Nowhere in my posts have I ever said that all the sync issues are coming from problems outside DirecTV's control. I am trying to point out that there is not just one "sync issue", and however hard everyone tries, and whatever DirecTV does, they will only be able to improve sync in some areas not in all of them. Only an industry-wide solution will put sync issues to bed forever. Yes, let's apply pressure on DirecTV to fix the "faulty brakes" to use the analogy in an earlier post, but don't expect that to fix the car, or get rid of the ice on the street.

[JeffBowser]

Tex is right. Ultimately, the sync has to start at the recording stage. That's what the clapper was for in film days before DD, sound was placed directly on the film strip in sync, no possibility for drift there.

[aramus8]

We can post over and over again the arguments about sync and D* still won't get the message, but if we post over and over again the specifics we might have a chance at getting this fixed. A couple of hundred pages of specific problems listed, and we know they check this site out, would be hard for them to ignore. Here, I'll start. The Weather Channel has been unwatchable for over a week. This channel isn't a part time problem, the sync is way off all the time. It is bad enough that I no longer even consider watching it.

[SteveEJ]

The sync "watermark" has to be added at the studio or program source, or has to be encoded into the movie/program source. How is DirecTV going to check the overall sync quality? Have someone watching every channel (including all the locals) 24 hours a day? Then where is the sync info going to go? The spec for the audio track is not under DirecTVs control, it has to conform to the Dolby Digital spec. The spec for video is not under DirecTVs control either.
This is doable but only if it is an industry-wide standard, that is why the industry has set up these working groups. Once a "sync watermark" or similar system is developed, we will all need new equipment to handle the new signals. Ironically, the DirecTV boxes themselves don't even need to look at the "sync watermark", they just pass it through, so long as it is understood by the TV, and by an A/V receiver (connected to the TV via an HDMI 1.3 connection). The TV and A/V receiver can make any adjustments necessary.

But the easy way out is not going to fix anything! Look at it this way:

Set up a QC at the Satellite uplink center (DirecTV).
QC's responsibility is to look for Sync problems from the providers. If they find them they can Sync them PRIOR to uplink and/or update a DirecTV live text only news channel stating the problem and the user can contact CNN, TWC or whoever it is to report the problem. DirecTV also reports the problem to the provider.

The sync watermark is to ensure that it is NOT a DirecTV equipment problem. Providers ALWAYS try to say it is someone else's fault. This would provide proof positive of where the problem lies and fix them if it is DirecTV's. It would require automated services in the receivers but why that isn't already there is a question for me. To blindly encode and blindly decode audio/video/dd and expect it to be right, across multiple hardware platforms is just foolish and asking for trouble.

The fix has to start somewhere! If DirecTV makes sure that their act is together, in a way that can provide info/proof of a providers problem then that would be a good start.
;)

[Kansas Zephyr]

Set up a QC at the Satellite uplink center (DirecTV).
QC's responsibility is to look for Sync problems from the providers. If they find them they can Sync them PRIOR to uplink and/or update a DirecTV live text only news channel stating the problem and the user can contact CNN, TWC or whoever it is to report the problem. DirecTV also reports the problem to the provider.
This would be very promotable, too. D* could advertise the fact that they provide QC and correct audio sync problems. Take that cable!

I remember four years ago when the local OTAs were having HD sync issues. You didn't know if it was the local station or the network feed. This too will work itself out in time.

[wavemaster]

I think we need to start two new threads.

One, where it's the industry's fault and we can list all the industry "players" and consumer hotlines so that those who wish to can be a lot more productive than sticking our head in the sand. We can also hotlink to it over the next 6-8 years while we "wait for the industry" everytime someone asks about it, just send them to the "industry link".

And another thread where we document DirectTV's (specifically) problems, our setups, and how to test it right. Then perhaps we CAN see some ACTUAL fixes relative to our gear from DirectTV. This (once started) could actually see improvement in weeks/months instead of years. Will fixing the issues in the current firmware "fix the industry"? No, nor will it create world peace or cure world hunger, but it should get the firmware fixed :-)

And for those that simply don't care? Don't bother posting, it will help both sides.

[luckydob]

How about this analogy:

You lease a car from Ford, and you have problems stopping. So you take the car back to Ford and expect them to fix the brakes.

There is a problem with the brakes, so Ford should fix it.

But your tires are also worn, and maintaining/replacing the tires is your responsibility. So you don't yell at Ford about the tires, instead you replace them.

But your car still doesn't stop. So you complain to Ford, and they investigate, and find that your car doesn't stop because the road is covered with ice. There is no sense in complaining to Ford about the road; that's a community problem.

So even if Ford fixes what they can, and you fix what you can, there is still the community problem. But that doesn't excuse Ford from fixing what is their responsibility (the faulty brakes).

The brakes actually work, the conditions external of the car cause the issue. Also, why release a product when you know the "community" has an issue? Would you sell kites in an area that doesn't have any wind? The analogy is not very good. Now...is the lip sync issue external to D*? I think not, at least for the most part.

[Kansas Zephyr]

Now...is the lip sync issue external to D*? I think not.
But, it very well might be.

I've seen sync issues on OTA broadcasts also. Not, nearly as many now as a few years ago. But, it still happens infrequently.

Garbage in...garbage out. If D* gets out of sync HD programming from the content provider, it's not D*'s fault.

But D* could go the extra mile and try to QC and correct it. Giving them another selling point over cable and E*.

[Carl Spock]

Not screaming "at your nearest upstream source" - Screaming at who I'm paying.Yeah, for not sending me flowers and a Valentine's Day card saying that they love me but instead shafting me an extra $4.99 by offering an a la carte package like I've been crabbing about for months.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/Klingon.gif

Oops. My bad. Wrong bitch thread.

Sorry.

[JeffBowser]

:lol: :lol:

Yeah, for not sending me flowers and a Valentine's Day card saying that they love me but instead shafting me an extra $4.99 by offering an a la carte package like I've been crabbing about for months.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/Klingon.gif

Oops. My bad. Wrong bitch thread.

Sorry.

[dhhaines]

Yeah, for not sending me flowers and a Valentine's Day card saying that they love me but instead shafting me an extra $4.99 by offering an a la carte package like I've been crabbing about for months.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/Klingon.gif

Oops. My bad. Wrong bitch thread.

Sorry.

You can just cut and paste this one in alot of threads... :lol: :rolleyes:

[ddrumman2004]

I remember the days before cable and satellite television when all you pulled in was what you could pick up on a set of "rabbit ears".

You would think that with ALL the technology that is available to us, including this discussion over sync issues on a computer, that something like lip sync would be a thing of the past or never a problem to begin with.

[dhhaines]

I remember the days before cable and satellite television when all you pulled in was what you could pick up on a set of "rabbit ears".

You would think that with ALL the technology that is available to us, including this discussion over sync issues on a computer, that something like lip sync would be a thing of the past or never a problem to begin with.

The problem IS all the technology, trying to get the compressed sound and the compressed video to uncompress at the same rate. At least that's the very basic explanation.

[Carl Spock]

Now that we're back into discussion, I'd really like to go back on topic and ask the OP, omj, how his sync issues are and how he's doing? Still fighting the good fight?

omj, I'm sorry that your thread took a !pusht!

At least the discussion has been enlightening.

[pfueri]

I have decided to start a thread concerning that lack of effort to fix the sync issues. I have complained to directv several times only to be pushed aside. So, starting today I have emailed and complained about the programing last night that was out. I am going to continue to email them and call everytime I experience this problem. I will post my emails and responses. I encourage those of you that have been paying for HD service and tired of feeling like you are watching Kung-Fu movies to do the same.

My first email:

Details: I have had HD for months now. I constantly have problems with the sound matching the actions. I have had this problem before and made calls concerning it. It gets out of sync one day then it corrects for a day and then it messes up again. I am finally emailing so I have a written record of my problems. Last night USA network was out of sync bad. I have tried resetting the box with no luck. I have read on the directv forums that lots of other people have the same problem. I am paying for this
service and it doesn't work properly yet I am in a contract to keep it. Is there a clause that I can cancel if the service is terrible? I am going to continue to send emails every time I have issues with the audio. I have tried the troubleshooting. I don't want the same song and dance about having surround sound either. It is still off when the sound comes directly through the tv. I hope that someone gets in touch with me concerning this issue and makes this right. I am sure there will be more emails to
come since this problem happens constantly.


Response:

Thanks for writing. I see that you have been with us for quite a while. We do want to let you know that we appreciate your loyalty and your business.

However, I'm sorry to hear you are constantly having audio problems with your HD receiver and you have already tried resetting it. If resetting the receiver doesn't fix the problem, you may find some additional help at directv.com/troubleshooting. Otherwise, please call our technical support center at 1-800-531-5000 and select the option for technical assistance. Our Technical Support agents are trained to walk you through a number of troubleshooting steps which are too difficult to try to talk through over email. Also, you may find some helpful information at the DIRECTV Technical Help forums. Just visit http://forums.directv.com/pe/index.jsp to find answers to your questions.

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.

Sincerely,


I sent another reply asking about my original question concerning the contract having a clause about being able to cancel when the service I am paying for is not working properly.it is getting to be a pain in the butt!Frank Tv is the worst lip sync of all for me it is so bad i only check to see if it is fixed.when a show is all about impressions if the lip sync is off the impressions just don't look very good

[cody21]

That's the same (canned) response that I received from DirectTV as well when I emailed them last week.

[cody21]

CNNHD once again - horrible at 10:15 AM PDT

[cartrivision]

it is getting to be a pain in the butt!Frank Tv is the worst lip sync of all for me it is so bad i only check to see if it is fixed.when a show is all about impressions if the lip sync is off the impressions just don't look very good

+1

I haven't seen one Frank TV (TBS) yet that didn't have a really bad sync problem (but I haven't checked the latest episode though).

[Carl Spock]

CNNHD once again - horrible at 10:15 AM PDT
Yes, CNN HD is off again today. I wouldn't say horribly but definitely off. And last night they were dead nuts on.

Still work to do, I see.

[Tom Robertson]

Ah the good old days are back again. I remember all this happening back in the '60s (1960s, not 1860s...) with TVs, TV stations struggling to figure this new fangled TV stuff out--and it wasn't even really all that new fangled back then.

Providers, both local and national, are struggling to make everything work smoothly. HD is really still new, the equipment still doesn't interoperate, the plant engineers are still trying to figure out how to troubleshoot new equipment, the new equipment manufacturers are still asking the plant engineers the same thing.

From time to time I see horror stories in the local station forums at AVS. Today I received a PM describing how this affects ALL the channels at the provider first as the rest of the path is usually pretty clean--receive, modulate, uplink. People who monitor the raw channel feeds tell me this happens all the time, lip synching and audio integrity is the hardest part. Pixelation is a very close second.

In the 7 years I've had HD, I've watched each channel and station go thru the cycle as they've started on HD: Great picture with horrible sound; pixellation; times when things are good, times when this all fall apart.

Then they start to figure out that the plant-wide time-base has to be all on the same clock, can't have some based on network feed and some on navy time--eventually they will fall out of synch by mere milliseconds--enough to blow the audio out of the water.

Or that the Cyron has to be set just so--not described in the manual, of course.

Or the cameras purchased this year aren't the same as they were when purchased last year.

In an article, a CNN manager described how everything needs to be tested for compatibility, each and every camera, switcher, video processor. Not one of each model--every unit themself. Ouch!

HD is not yet plug and play. Not hardly.

So... The 60's are back again. :) Hopefully we won't have to go well into the 70's to solve them this time.

Happy Holidays!
Tom

[jjohns]

Describing the audio-video sync problems of "hiccups" of a new technology is fair and I for one accept that. Where the majority of responsibility lies for correcting it is another. D* is providing (and charging a healthy fee for) only two things to their paid customers: audio and video. I would think any reasonable person would have the expectation that they both match up. There is only one entity on my bill identified as accepting all my money each month for the audio and video.

[Carl Spock]

CNN HD was bad again this morning for the presidential news conference. I sent this email to CNN at this site (http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form6a.html?2).

I have complained to CNN HD about lip sync issues in the past. I will give you credit. CNN HD is trying to fix this problem. I have noticed an improvement but you are still not there. Not by a long shot.

I can watch President Bush's news conference on maybe 6 different networks. Why should I watch CNN when your signal is bad? There was a significant lip sync problem with your broadcast, with the audio well ahead of the video. After the news conference, the anchor in Atlanta was still a hair off, with maybe the video now before the audio. However the reporters interviewed in the field were all like the president, way out of sync. When I see this I know the problem lies within your system. I am getting two different lip sync problems within your one broadcast.

Last night your signal was dead on. To see it bad again this morning was very frustrating. I switched to MSNBC.

[dhhaines]

Describing the audio-video sync problems of "hiccups" of a new technology is fair and I for one accept that. Where the majority of responsibility lies for correcting it is another. D* is providing (and charging a healthy fee for) only two things to their paid customers: audio and video. I would think any reasonable person would have the expectation that they both match up. There is only one entity on my bill identified as accepting all my money each month for the audio and video.

In my mind, as far as the consumer is concerned, it is Directvs responsibility to get the source feeds to clean up their acts. It's the way the supply chain works in all other industries.

[Carl Spock]

Witness two different solutions to the same problem.

I like mine better. I also think it has a better chance of success.

[dhhaines]

Witness two different solutions to the same problem.

I like mine better. I also think it has a better chance of success.

You may be right on that, but Directv also has a responsability to it's subcribers to get their suppliers to give them a feed that is correctly formated. That being said, I think the "bugs" will get worked out on both ends.

[gregjones]

This out of sync issue has been around for 1 to 2 years. Go ahead, look back a year. The same problems with the same audio-video sync. Everybody wants to say its this or that but I have a different perspective. I am leasing this box from DirecTV for a good bit of money. I am paying DirecTV over $135 a month to provide me the programming they so eloquently advertise. I'm not paying the source or the distribution chain. I'm paying DirecTV. I don't care what's causing it - I'm using D*'s box and paying for it. I'm paying D* for the programs. It's DirecTV's problem to fix. No one elses. That's who I'm paying quite a bit of money to. Seems to me they've had plenty of time to correct it and gotten plenty of my money in the mean time.

And if the problem is your audio equipment delaying the sound, it is not DirecTV's problem to fix. This is a very real possibility in a number of the scenarios described.

[Tom Robertson]

Describing the audio-video sync problems of "hiccups" of a new technology is fair and I for one accept that. Where the majority of responsibility lies for correcting it is another. D* is providing (and charging a healthy fee for) only two things to their paid customers: audio and video. I would think any reasonable person would have the expectation that they both match up. There is only one entity on my bill identified as accepting all my money each month for the audio and video.

In my mind, as far as the consumer is concerned, it is Directvs responsibility to get the source feeds to clean up their acts. It's the way the supply chain works in all other industries.

The cab driver is not responsible for the road and even with the best maintenance can only do so much. Yes, DIRECTV does push the providers. Yes they very likely give helpful tips they've learned. I suspect all the providers are sharing tips much like we share HR20 tips/tricks. :)

So I have to ask? Are you saying you'd rather DIRECTV turned off CNNHD for another 2 years that it might take to work all the problems out? :)

And if the problem is your audio equipment delaying the sound, it is not DirecTV's problem to fix. This is a very real possibility in a number of the scenarios described.

Yes, this very real. Especially in cases where the audio and video are processed thru different equipment. I have very noticeable differences in how my TVs process the same satellite signals; thankfully my AVR has an adjustable delay factor.

Happy Holidays!
Tom

[dhhaines]

The cab driver is not responsible for the road and even with the best maintenance can only do so much. Yes, DIRECTV does push the providers. Yes they very likely give helpful tips they've learned. I suspect all the providers are sharing tips much like we share HR20 tips/tricks. :)

So I have to ask? Are you saying you'd rather DIRECTV turned off CNNHD for another 2 years that it might take to work all the problems out? :)



Yes, this very real. Especially in cases where the audio and video are processed thru different equipment. I have very noticeable differences in how my TVs process the same satellite signals; thankfully my AVR has an adjustable delay factor.

Happy Holidays!
Tom

No, I'm not saying that Directv should turnoff any providers due to these problems. But they do need to take a very active role in getting the problem fixed, no matter what the source, as they are the entity that provides the service and takes our money for providing that service.

Also if you want to use a vehicle analogy, one that I would use for my point is that if a supplier of, say brake parts, sends Ford defective brakes, which they put on their cars, who do you take the car back to for repairs? The brake manufacter?

As the direct supplier of the product they are responsable for that product no matter where in the supply chain the problem lies.

[Impala1ss]

Direct TV has the fiduciary responsibility to ALL subscribers to either fix the problems caused within the D* system (most probably in the MPEG4 HD system), and identify same, AND/OR advise us where the problems lie if not under D*'s control e.g. what networks are presenting the sync problems, and then ti tell us how they are working with the offenders to resolve the problems.

It is D*'s responsibility to make their customers happy, not to simply remain silent and let the customers point non-technical fingers at "maybe this is the problem." :(

[Tom Robertson]

No, I'm not saying that Directv should turnoff any providers due to these problems. But they do need to take a very active role in getting the problem fixed, no matter what the source, as they are the entity that provides the service and takes our money for providing that service.

Also if you want to use a vehicle analogy, one that I would use for my point is that if a supplier of, say brake parts, sends Ford defective brakes, which they put on their cars, who do you take the car back to for repairs? The brake manufacter?

As the direct supplier of the product they are responsable for that product no matter where in the supply chain the problem lies.
I have to ask... How do you know that DIRECTV, Dish Network, Comcast, et al aren't already doing everything they can to improve their suppliers? :)

I can say that DIRECTV does take the signal quality very seriously.

Happy Holidays!
Tom

[Carl Spock]

Exactly. Things may not be progressing as fast as I want but how do any of us know what's going on behind the scenes?

There is a feeling among some that DirecTV doesn't care about signal quality issues. Where does that come from? What evidence is there in the 13+ years that DirecTV has provided service that they don't care about signal quality? If anything my signal has improved since I signed up in 2002.

Pressed, I'll say sync problems are slowly, oh so very slowly, getting fewer over the past couple of weeks. Things are improving.

But let's take nothing for granted. Last night I noticed my ABC affiliate, which has been broadcasting HDTV for many years, suddenly had a sync problem. I get my networks OTA. NBC, CBS and PBS were fine.

As has been said here before, this problem is with us for the long haul.

[jjohns]

Does anyone know of any other industry where when the seller provides a product with a defect, there are so many to run to the side of the giant corporation and make excuses for the defects? A mega-billion dollar entity does not wear the “Do you know how complicated this is?” hat well.

Does anyone really think that making the voice match the lips in a video product is so difficult and should get such a pass? C'mon! That's the least that should be expected. This is not new technology. And yes, if D* doesn’t get a feed that’s appropriate or meets certain standards, of course they’re not suppose to pass on the defect to the customer; then blame the ones they accepted the bad feed from in the first place - Unbelievable. What other industry gets this luxury?

[JeffBowser]

Man, I am forced to conclude that there are people who just don't want to be happy. Or patient.

[Ext 721]

Just for another data point - I have found that the problem is with the MPEG4 feed. It is definilty a DirecTV problem. Its not our home equipment and its not the broadcast stations.

Next time you notice sync problems with HD broadcast networks, change channels to the old MPEG2 HD channels and you'll notice that the sync is perfect there. This proves its all DirecTV and they need to fix it.

mpeg-4 is a tricky animal. Bold and new, yet untamed.

I think we need mpeg-4 version 2....I think it'll exist in a year or so.

But that's just a random guess.

[Carl Spock]

Does anyone know of any other industry where when the seller provides a product with a defect, there are so many to run to the side of the giant corporation and make excuses for the defects?
<snip>
What other industry gets this luxury?
I don't see Dell offering refunds to customers who bought Microsoft Vista.

[Ext 721]

Does anyone know of any other industry where when the seller provides a product with a defect, there are so many to run to the side of the giant corporation and make excuses for the defects? A mega-billion dollar entity does not wear the “Do you know how complicated this is?” hat well.

Does anyone really think that making the voice match the lips in a video product is so difficult and should get such a pass? C'mon! That's the least that should be expected. This is not new technology. And yes, if D* doesn’t get a feed that’s appropriate or meets certain standards, of course they’re not suppose to pass on the defect to the customer; then blame the ones they accepted the bad feed from in the first place - Unbelievable. What other industry gets this luxury?

Well, the solution is not for DTV to yank any bad video feed, and put up a slide that says "technical difficulties"...or is it?

That would be "not accepting the bad feed" and "not passing the defect to the customer".

If they get "24" with a small green block on the screen for the entire show...do they continue to show it, or cut to black?

Sadly, they're a middleman who is fully expected to deliver a supply they have little control over the quality, other than to cut it off.

[Matt9876]

Quote:EXT 721


mpeg-4 is a tricky animal. Bold and new, yet untamed.

I think we need mpeg-4 version 2....I think it'll exist in a year or so.

But that's just a random guess.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I 100% agree with you!

Problem is the Mpeg4 codec is ROM coded into the chips on the new box and no changes can be made on the customers end without a new box $$$.

Matt

[gregjones]

Does anyone know of any other industry where when the seller provides a product with a defect, there are so many to run to the side of the giant corporation and make excuses for the defects? A mega-billion dollar entity does not wear the “Do you know how complicated this is?” hat well.

Does anyone really think that making the voice match the lips in a video product is so difficult and should get such a pass? C'mon! That's the least that should be expected. This is not new technology. And yes, if D* doesn’t get a feed that’s appropriate or meets certain standards, of course they’re not suppose to pass on the defect to the customer; then blame the ones they accepted the bad feed from in the first place - Unbelievable. What other industry gets this luxury?

It also looks fairly easy to put an orange ball in a circle of metal ten feet off of the ground, but most of us aren't in the NBA. It's a lot easier to watch professionals than it is to be them.

It is easy to talk about how easy it is to fix sync issues when we are not the people that have to do the work. Again, these problems may or may not be under DirecTV's control. Even if they are not, DirecTV has a vested interest in helping the content providers fix them.

"Passing on a defect" makes it sound as if this is something that DirecTV can fix if it is provided to them incorrectly. I have seen no data whatsoever to support this assumption. The only way to fix this is to address all of the possible issues:

Remove any unnecessary hardware from the mix. Yes, this may mean disconnecting your HT system to make sure it is not the problem.
Specify the equipment where the issue is noticed. Is it an H20, HR20?
Specify if you are in native mode
Specify if you are watching live or recorded content
Specify if it is a local OTA or an LIL
Specify the channel, program and time the issue was noticed
Put pressure on the channel, through direct communication about any problem in the signal
Copy DirecTV on every complaint about the quality of the signal
Let the forum know all of this information so we can compare it to what we have seen.


Complaining may make everyone feel better, but it is not productive unless it is extremely specific.

[jjohns]

Well, the solution is not for DTV to yank any bad video feed, and put up a slide that says "technical difficulties"...or is it?

That would be "not accepting the bad feed" and "not passing the defect to the customer".

If they get "24" with a small green block on the screen for the entire show...do they continue to show it, or cut to black?

Sadly, they're a middleman who is fully expected to deliver a supply they have little control over the quality, other than to cut it off.

"Sadly, they're a middleman who is fully expected to deliver a supply they have little control over the quality, other than to cut it off."

Sadly? Sadly? Are you kidding? They're still collecting the money aren't they? You give this much sympathy to the telephone company when your dial tone goes on and off? Of course you don't. What is this, a bunch of posts strung together from D* engineers who can't seem to get right that tricky little problem of making the lips match the voice? TV was invented in the late 20's early 30's and the voices matched then. Fast forward 80 years and DirecTV can't seem to solve that pesky little defect.

[JeffBowser]

Way back then, the audio was encoded directly onto the tape with the picture. Now it is not. Relax, it will get fixed - fighting everyone up here over your pet peeve dujour isn't going to change much.

" What is this, a bunch of posts strung together from D* engineers who can't seem to get right that tricky little problem of making the lips match the voice? TV was invented in the late 20's early 30's and the voices matched then. Fast forward 80 years and DirecTV can't seem to solve that pesky little defect.

[jjohns]

Way back then, the audio was encoded directly onto the tape with the picture. Now it is not. Relax, it will get fixed - fighting everyone up here over your pet peeve dujour isn't going to change much.

I doubt that most would call the words not matching the mouths of the actors a "pet peeve". Unfortunately the viewing public has been watching film for 75 odd years and has come to expect the words to match the mouths accurately.

[JeffBowser]

Well, true, good point, but your strident objections are wearing (to me at least) :)


I doubt that most would call the words not matching the mouths of the actors a "pet peeve". Unfortunately the viewing public has been watching film for 75 odd years and has come to expect the words to match the mouths accurately.

[Matt9876]

I remember 16 MM projectors having a sync adjustment knob for the sound,Once adjusted they stayed in sync.

Working/editing with Mpeg4 movies the offset seems to change with each project.

[jjohns]

Well, true, good point, but your strident objections are wearing (to me at least) :)



Strange since my, in your words, "strident" objections were aimed toward D*, yet they are "wearing" to you.

[JeffBowser]

Because - many good people up here, some with highly advanced knowledge, have posted the many reasons why sync can be off, and the folly of blaming DirecTV alone. It's as if you don't even see those posts. Your position seemingly continues to be one of unyielding stubborness. Makes one think, why should I even bother with explanations :nono:

Strange since my, in your words, "strident" objections were aimed toward D*, yet they are "wearing" to you.

[jjohns]

Quote:EXT 721


mpeg-4 is a tricky animal. Bold and new, yet untamed.

I think we need mpeg-4 version 2....I think it'll exist in a year or so.

But that's just a random guess.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I 100% agree with you!

Problem is the Mpeg4 codec is ROM coded into the chips on the new box and no changes can be made on the customers end without a new box $$$.

Matt


Somehow I get this feeling the problem is related to the vehement fear by the content providers of someone copying something.

[jjohns]

Because - many good people up here, some with highly advanced knowledge, have posted the many reasons why sync can be off, and the folly of blaming DirecTV alone. It's as if you don't even see those posts. Your position seemingly continues to be one of unyielding stubborness. Makes one think, why should I even bother with explanations :nono:


Perhaps the explanation would be well served if it was delivered by the ones listed on my monthly bill.

[JeffBowser]

:lol: I can't argue with that!

Perhaps the explanation would be well served if it was delivered by the ones listed on my monthly bill.

[gregjones]

Well, true, good point, but your strident objections are wearing (to me at least) :)

You are not alone

[gregjones]

Somehow I get this feeling the problem is related to the vehement fear by the content providers of someone copying something.

Is this fear based on any actual knowledge? I hate to be so harsh, but you are carrying on about this completely illogically. A lot of people much more familiar with this have offered a great deal of information and you continue to ignore them.

Having a tantrum is fine, but don't expect others to continue answering your questions when you choose to ignore them.

[gregjones]

Perhaps the explanation would be well served if it was delivered by the ones listed on my monthly bill.

This it not DirecTV support. Asking a question here implies you wish an answer here. Since DirecTV does not give official answers here, asking for one here is futile.

[Tom Robertson]

Does anyone know of any other industry where when the seller provides a product with a defect, there are so many to run to the side of the giant corporation and make excuses for the defects? A mega-billion dollar entity does not wear the “Do you know how complicated this is?” hat well.

Does anyone really think that making the voice match the lips in a video product is so difficult and should get such a pass? C'mon! That's the least that should be expected. This is not new technology. And yes, if D* doesn’t get a feed that’s appropriate or meets certain standards, of course they’re not suppose to pass on the defect to the customer; then blame the ones they accepted the bad feed from in the first place - Unbelievable. What other industry gets this luxury?
Yes. The software industry. :)
How about the insurance industry--if we deny you service for which you actually are entitled you can only sue us for the amount we should have paid in the first place, not for damages (like death!)
How about tobacco--they will gladly sell you a product that will kill you.

And have you completely forgotten TV in the ghostly, snowy, pre-cable days?

Ah well, some people are never completely satisfied. Nothing wrong with that, I always want to improve things too. But there are ways and then there are less useful ways... :)

Happy Holidays, everyone!
Tom

[dhhaines]

Does anyone know of any other industry where when the seller provides a product with a defect, there are so many to run to the side of the giant corporation and make excuses for the defects? A mega-billion dollar entity does not wear the “Do you know how complicated this is?” hat well.

Does anyone really think that making the voice match the lips in a video product is so difficult and should get such a pass? C'mon! That's the least that should be expected. This is not new technology. And yes, if D* doesn’t get a feed that’s appropriate or meets certain standards, of course they’re not suppose to pass on the defect to the customer; then blame the ones they accepted the bad feed from in the first place - Unbelievable. What other industry gets this luxury?

Ummm... can you say Microsoft????

[dhhaines]

I have to ask... How do you know that DIRECTV, Dish Network, Comcast, et al aren't already doing everything they can to improve their suppliers? :)

I can say that DIRECTV does take the signal quality very seriously.

Happy Holidays!
Tom

Actually I never said that they weren't. My point was more that even if it's a supply problem, Directv or whomever, is the direct supplier of that service. And as such has a bigger stake in getting this fixed.

And besides that, I'm one who understands that it's a "new technology" problem. It will get fixed. Besides at least for me it's been getting better. Some here make it out to be that the sky is falling and we're all doomed.:rolleyes:

[Impala1ss]

Way back then, the audio was encoded directly onto the tape with the picture. Now it is not. Relax, it will get fixed - fighting everyone up here over your pet peeve dujour isn't going to change much.


This guy doesn't read his own posts - A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.

[Impala1ss]

[QUOTE=gregjones;1347906]Is this fear based on any actual knowledge? I hate to be so harsh, but you are carrying on about this completely illogically. A lot of people much more familiar with this have offered a great deal of information and you continue to ignore them.[QUOTE]

The REAL problem is that D* says nothing about their problems, instead settling on the consumers to speculate as to the problem, extent of the problem, possible solutions, and when/ if they will be solved:mad: It is the "sound of silence" that pi$$es me off.

[Carl Spock]

Being upset over sync issues, I can understand. But to be pi$$ed off at DirecTV for not making a public statement over this problem? You are expecting something that will never happen.

This is the way of businesses. Never admit any problems. Why do you expect DirecTV to be any different?

Or maybe I missed the press release from Microsoft over the problems with Vista.

To each his own, Impala. But to me, you're adding an extra layer of being upset that will never get resolved.

[Tom Robertson]

It also looks fairly easy to put an orange ball in a circle of metal ten feet off of the ground, but most of us aren't in the NBA. It's a lot easier to watch professionals than it is to be them.

It is easy to talk about how easy it is to fix sync issues when we are not the people that have to do the work. Again, these problems may or may not be under DirecTV's control. Even if they are not, DirecTV has a vested interest in helping the content providers fix them. ...Awesome analogy, I love it! :)
"Sadly, they're a middleman who is fully expected to deliver a supply they have little control over the quality, other than to cut it off."

Sadly? Sadly? Are you kidding? They're still collecting the money aren't they? You give this much sympathy to the telephone company when your dial tone goes on and off? Of course you don't. What is this, a bunch of posts strung together from D* engineers who can't seem to get right that tricky little problem of making the lips match the voice? TV was invented in the late 20's early 30's and the voices matched then. Fast forward 80 years and DirecTV can't seem to solve that pesky little defect.
The Telephone company IS the provider, not the middleman. Perhaps you might want to find a better analogy to make your point.

Have you completely forgotten the problems of the 40s, 50s, and 60s, stretching into the early 70s about lipsync? I remember them vividly. Each time a station would add a new bit of audio or video processing to their plant, the problems could occur again, until the manufacturers finally worked out how to keep the sync universally and analogue became plug and play. They are just starting to do that with HD signals.

Lastly, what do you expect DIRECTV to do? Magically fix the providers' problems for them? If you were CNN, would you allow DIRECTV to come into your house and mess with your equipment to get it all working? :grin:

Every new HD channel will go thru the same set of growing pains. Just like every company the deploys a new version of Windows repeats the same learning curve of supporting it.

Have a very Merry Christmas, everyone!
Tom