Price of PVR Vs. Directv-tivo [Archive]

Bill R

01-14-03, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Z'Loth
Post reported to moderator for action.

:mad: One reason that I don't like to post on this board is because of people like you that attack and "snitch" on anyone that disagrees with them. GROW UP. Echostar has a LOT of management problems right now and that INCLUDES decisions on the pricing of their hardware, EXPECIALLY for existing customers.

Now I guess that your are going to report me.

dbronstein

01-14-03, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Mark
After looking at the price of the 721 for New and already a costumer prices, I have to say you and I our getting hosed by Dish-network, 550$ if you are already a custumer.

Where do you get your info? I bought my 721 for $499 as an existing customer.

Dennis

Scott Greczkowski

01-14-03, 11:03 AM

I saw no problem with the origional post. The author DOES have a VALID point.

LarryS

01-14-03, 11:12 AM

Best offer I got from Dish for a DP replacement was $199 for a 501. New subscribers get a 508 at $89. I got two tivo HDVR2s for $350 - $100 rebate of course there is the $5 PTV charge not the $13 per Ken that's for standalone units only. I think Dish needs to improve their treatment of current subscribers or more will bail.

Mark Holtz

01-14-03, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Bill R
:mad: One reason that I don't like to post on this board is because of people like you that attack and "snitch" on anyone that disagrees with them. GROW UP. Echostar has a LOT of management problems right now and that INCLUDES decisions on the pricing of their hardware, EXPECIALLY for existing customers.

Now I guess that your are going to report me.

No, I won't report you. In fact, I would be scared if everyone agreed with everything I say. And, for the most part, people have been respectful of other peoples opinions, even if they disagree with them. (Years ago, I was also a moderator of several FidoNet boards. My method of moderatorship was to build a win-win situation.)

Let me tell you the reasons why I reported the post:
* It was a hit-and-run post, saying that "DirecTivo is good, 721 is bad", and giving only equipment costs as the reason.
* It was posted on a guest account, which means that the person has no intention of sticking around for the responses.
* He posted on a forum which is dedicated to discussing Dish PVRs.
* He didn't elaborate on the details beyond unit cost.
* This has been discussed to death.

At least you posted some more meat in your post. I would like to purchase a 721, but the cost is too high. With the DirecTivo, there is a monthly fee which is more reasonable now ($5 per month) than it was a year ago, and can be waived entirely with current programming packages. I also don't like the fact that the Tivo attaches a lifetime fee to a receiver.

But, I also dislike the fact that you cannot replace the hard drive on the 50x. There are larger hard drives out there, but you cannot take out the present drive and put in a bigger hard drive... you have to replace the entire box.

Ken Seeber

01-14-03, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by LarryS
of course there is the $5 PTV charge not the $13 per Ken that's for standalone units only.

A, I stand corrected.  So my 721 will have paid for itself by next winter! ;)

spanishannouncetable

01-14-03, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Ken Seeber

On the other hand, I paid $101 more for the 721, but I don't have to pay the $13 per month or $250 "lifetime" Tivo fee. It will have paid for itself by spring, thank you very much.

Best price for a 721 to a new sub - $350 (Dish Depot)
Best price for a HDVR2 to a new sub - $150 (Circuit City)
$350 - $150 = $200
$200 / $4.99 monthly DVR service = 40 months (over 3 years)

Best price for 2 721's to an existing sub - $1100 (Dish Depot)
Best price for 2 HDVR2's to an existing sub - $400 (Tweeter)
$1100 - $400 = $700
$700 / $4.99 monthly DVR service = 140 months (over 11 years)

If you have TC Premier, there is NO extra monthly fee for DVR service.

The 721 doesn't compare quite so favorably when you level the playing field :)

(edited to reflect lower prices I found - s.a.t.)

spanishannouncetable

01-14-03, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Z'Loth
I also don't like the fact that the Tivo attaches a lifetime fee to a receiver.

Directv changed their policy. They no longer sell lifetime subs, but those who have lifetime service paid for on Series 1 DirecTiVos will have the lifetime service attached to their Directv accounts now, not the box itself.

As long as these people have a Directv account, they will never pay for DVR service, no matter how many they use at once, or how many they ever use.

DaYooper

01-14-03, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by spanishannouncetable

$240 / $4.99 monthly DVR service = 48 months (4 YEARS)

But doesn't it bother people that they are paying $5 a month for absolutely nothing? I can understand why TIVO has to charge a fee on the SA units, but what service does Direct TV provide that requires a monthly charge? They already provide guide data for all of their customers. Is there some extra "service" Direct TV has to provide to TIVO users?

Please note that I'm asking this as a valid question. I'm exploring my options because my free Dishplayer PTV service expires in a few months and I refuse to pay a fee for ANY PTV service.

BTW, does Direct TV still offer a "lifetime" option for TIVO?

I guess this question was answered while I was typing my reply.

BTW, I haven't looked that long, but you can get a 721 system for as low as $339 via the internet.

spanishannouncetable

01-14-03, 05:45 PM

The $4.99 is a way of breaking out the cost of the software (which includes semi-annual updates). They COULD include it in the price of the hardware like E* does, but the HDVR2's $199 shelf price vs. $550 for a 721 makes a big difference.

It also allows Directv to bundle the service for free if you subscribe to TC Premier. Low hardware costs = more money for customers to spend on programming.

Mark

01-14-03, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Z'Loth

No, I won't report you. In fact, I would be scared if everyone agreed with everything I say. And, for the most part, people have been respectful of other peoples opinions, even if they disagree with them. (Years ago, I was also a moderator of several FidoNet boards. My method of moderatorship was to build a win-win situation.)

Let me tell you the reasons why I reported the post:
* It was a hit-and-run post, saying that "DirecTivo is good, 721 is bad", and giving only equipment costs as the reason.
* It was posted on a guest account, which means that the person has no intention of sticking around for the responses.
* He posted on a forum which is dedicated to discussing Dish PVRs.
* He didn't elaborate on the details beyond unit cost.
* This has been discussed to death.

At least you posted some more meat in your post. I would like to purchase a 721, but the cost is too high. With the DirecTivo, there is a monthly fee which is more reasonable now ($5 per month) than it was a year ago, and can be waived entirely with current programming packages. I also don't like the fact that the Tivo attaches a lifetime fee to a receiver.

But, I also dislike the fact that you cannot replace the hard drive on the 50x. There are larger hard drives out there, but you cannot take out the present drive and put in a bigger hard drive... you have to replace the entire box.

1.OK So here I am A full MEMBER.

2. It is not a hit and run, it is a fact the a new customers are getting a BIG cut in price that I think I should get also, as a existing customer. I was going to stay with dish network but now I feel that price gouging is going on....

3. I am trying to get the Best value for my dollar. I work very hard for it and am not going to throw it away..

4. The cost IS the Detail..

Mark over and out .

PS thats why forums are here to discuss

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mark Holtz

01-14-03, 07:48 PM

Mark,

Cost may be a detail, but what about programming? While most of the programming is the same on both services, there are some packages which are carried on one system but not another. Isn't that also a factor?

I'm not interested in the sports package beyond Kings games. However, Dish offers the superstations package....something which DirecTV doesn't offer.

dbronstein

01-14-03, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by spanishannouncetable
The $4.99 is a way of breaking out the cost of the software (which includes semi-annual updates). They COULD include it in the price of the hardware like E* does, but the HDVR2's $199 shelf price vs. $550 for a 721 makes a big difference.

Again, you can get a 721 for $500.

Dennis

spanishannouncetable

01-14-03, 08:46 PM

A 721 is $550 at Dish Depot, or $500 somewhere else. $50. Big deal.

The HDVR2 still beats the price by $300. At $5 a month for service, it would take 5 YEARS for an existing sub to hit the break-even point with a 721. If you compare owning 2 of them, the break-even point is 10 years down the road.

5 or 10 years is a real long time to keep a satellite receiver up and running even if the only thing you factor in is the life of the hard drives in these units. Considering E*'s track record (DP, 501, 508, 721), is $500 - $1000 in one shot worth a 5 - 10 year gamble vs. $200 - $400 today + $5 a month to use hardware that could be upgraded or replaced when you decide something better has come along ?

spanishannouncetable

01-14-03, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Z'Loth
Mark,

Cost may be a detail, but what about programming? While most of the programming is the same on both services, there are some packages which are carried on one system but not another. Isn't that also a factor?

I'm not interested in the sports package beyond Kings games. However, Dish offers the superstations package....something which DirecTV doesn't offer.

Programming is a factor, sure. Foreign language, monthly porn, locals availability, etc. are all valid considerations. However, Mark was commenting on hardware prices alone.

And IMHO, the supers have become a joke. They used to offer a good variety of locally-flavored programming (sports, news, syndicated reruns, etc.), but now they just recycle the same tired crap that appears on every other WB or UPN channel regardless of where you live. If you have a PVR and WB & UPN in your locals, the supers offer nothing anymore; if you don't have a WB & UPN, "moving" is a better solution to get them.

dbronstein

01-14-03, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by spanishannouncetable
A 721 is $550 at Dish Depot, or $500 somewhere else. $50. Big deal.

All I'm saying is if you're going to compare prices, use the right prices. I didn't have to look very hard to find one for $500 - the first place I called had it.

Dennis

James_F

01-14-03, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by dbronstein

All I'm saying is if you're going to compare prices, use the right prices. I didn't have to look very hard to find one for $500 - the first place I called had it.

Dennis

So lets argue about how much the damn thing costs. :rolleyes: That isn't his point. :bang:

Mark

01-14-03, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Z'Loth
Mark,

Cost may be a detail, but what about programming? While most of the programming is the same on both services, there are some packages which are carried on one system but not another. Isn't that also a factor?

I'm not interested in the sports package beyond Kings games. However, Dish offers the superstations package....something which DirecTV doesn't offer.

For me I am only intersted in basic programing, And I do like the tivo software. So I started to look at Dish-networks PVR. (I feel a rant coming on) As a subscriber they do not care about upgrading there users. Which Blows my mind!! How do you keep a good customer. Treat them like one. And they do not. I just don't get it!! Sorry I'll calm down now...... :confused:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Karl Foster

01-15-03, 05:51 AM

Where the true advantage lies is purchasing multiple PVR's for the home. Buying two 721's will set you back about $1000.00, and two Directivo's will cost about $500.00 (I've seen them advertised for $239). With a $5 per month Tivo fee, it will take 100 months to make up the difference.

It is unfeasable for people to have multiple 721's without dropping some big dollars. I don't know about you guys, but I'd have a hard time justifying $1000 for satellite equipment. The price of a 721 is outrageous IMHO.

I know I have beat this to death, but $500 per unit and still no parental controls!? I thought that was supposed to be one of the best things about satellite tv. Dish's premier receiver will allow kids to watch whatever they want when the parents aren't there.

The $4.99 fee ends up being $.17 per day. Not exactly a bank-buster.

Bob Haller

01-15-03, 07:33 AM

E has to reprice PVRs, the 721 was oroiginally priced with free PVR aganst the D tivos rater large monthly cost.

This is yet ANOTHER of managements inattention to details.

I am truly concerned......:(

dbronstein

01-15-03, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by James_F
So lets argue about how much the damn thing costs. :rolleyes: That isn't his point. :bang:

Sorry for pointing out you have your facts wrong.

James_F

01-15-03, 03:43 PM

MY FACTS? Where did I ever say how much it costs? Don't be a troll. :rolleyes:

Ken Seeber

01-15-03, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by karl_f
It is unfeasable for people to have multiple 721's without dropping some big dollars. I don't know about you guys, but I'd have a hard time justifying $1000 for satellite equipment. The price of a 721 is outrageous IMHO.

You have a point, but not all of us needs multiple 721s.  In my case, a new 721 cost me $330, which was favorable to DirecTIVO with its monthly fee.

And while the fee for DirecTIVO is $5 per month now, we all know what fees tend to do:  they go up eventually.  I've bought and paid for my 721 and have no more worries in that regard.

Not to mention, the DirecTIVO units I've seen for $250 have a 40 gig harddrive, compared to the 120 gig drive in the 721.

James_F

01-15-03, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Ken Seeber
And while the fee for DirecTIVO is $5 per month now, we all know what fees tend to do:  they go up eventually.  I've bought and paid for my 721 and have no more worries in that regard.
The fee was $10, but was more than halved by DirecTV. Some people (like me) who have Platinum don't pay a dime. What makes you so sure that you won't have a fee in the future? At least DirecTV is reducing rates, unlike Dish which is increasing PVR rates.

See here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10545

marko

01-15-03, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by spanishannouncetable

Best price for a 721 to a new sub - $350 (Dish Depot)
Best price for a HDVR2 to a new sub - $150 (Circuit City)
$350 - $150 = $200
$200 / $4.99 monthly DVR service = 40 months (over 3 years)

Best price for 2 721's to an existing sub - $1100 (Dish Depot)
Best price for 2 HDVR2's to an existing sub - $400 (Tweeter)
$1100 - $400 = $700
$700 / $4.99 monthly DVR service = 140 months (over 11 years)

If you have TC Premier, there is NO extra monthly fee for DVR service.

The 721 doesn't compare quite so favorably when you level the playing field :)

(edited to reflect lower prices I found - s.a.t.)

Who the heck would ever buy 2 721's (or less so 2 HDVR2s)? Since they are dual tuner, can't they record 2 channels at once? I'm confused with that one. Doesn't the HDVR2 only have a 40 gig hard drive, and the 721 have a 120 gig? I could see needing a second PVR for the HDVR2, but why with the 120 gig? Wouldn't you need 3 HDVR2's to equal 1 721? And why would someone need 2 721's? Do people record more than 2 shows at once or something?

Also, maybe this is just me, but I dislike monthly fees. I would much rather pay money up front, and never see a monthly fee on my bill. Much better for me that way.

All this being said, the 721 is still to expensive. I would of loved to go with one, but too much money. They need to bring that price down to around $400. Of course since I already have a 501, I still won't be getting it at that price. Oh well, mabye in 3 years. Of course, I'll probably have an HDTV then, and things will be even more confusing.

marko

01-15-03, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by karl_f

The $4.99 fee ends up being $.17 per day. Not exactly a bank-buster.

Hah, for as much grumbling here that has taken place over the $2 prices increases for dish network, it is nice see something kept in perspective. A $2 increase is only 7 cents a day. But unfortunately, when it comes to paying for tv, it seems pennies count.

That being said, I will never pay a $5 PVR fee, unless that is the only choice. Dish has set a standard with 0 fee PVR, and unless there is a really compelling reason to go away from dish, I'll be with them for a while.

James_F

01-16-03, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by marko

Who the heck would ever buy 2 721's (or less so 2 HDVR2s)?
Maybe because they have two TVs? I have 2 DirecTiVos and couldn't live without them.

Also, maybe this is just me, but I dislike monthly fees. I would much rather pay money up front, and never see a monthly fee on my bill. Much better for me that way.
I don't pay a monthly fee on my DirecTiVos. I paid much less than Dish customers did and still don't have a monthly payment.

Augie #70

01-16-03, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by marko

Who the heck would ever buy 2 721's (or less so 2 HDVR2s)? Since they are dual tuner, can't they record 2 channels at once? I'm confused with that one. Doesn't the HDVR2 only have a 40 gig hard drive, and the 721 have a 120 gig? I could see needing a second PVR for the HDVR2, but why with the 120 gig? Wouldn't you need 3 HDVR2's to equal 1 721? And why would someone need 2 721's? Do people record more than 2 shows at once or something?

Also, maybe this is just me, but I dislike monthly fees. I would much rather pay money up front, and never see a monthly fee on my bill. Much better for me that way.

All this being said, the 721 is still to expensive. I would of loved to go with one, but too much money. They need to bring that price down to around $400. Of course since I already have a 501, I still won't be getting it at that price. Oh well, mabye in 3 years. Of course, I'll probably have an HDTV then, and things will be even more confusing.

I had two DTivo's until last Sunday when I purchased a new HDVR2 from Tweeter for 199.99.  (no special pricing - their everyday price to set the record straight on the cost of the new units)

Why do I need so many?  One in the basement for my kids to use, two in my family room for my wife & I to use.  Yes, I can record 4 shows at a time, I've never had the need to do so but I have in many cases recorded three at the same time.  As far as disk space, my older DTivo has 2-120 gb drives in it for a total recording capacity of 230 hours.  Can the 721 unit be upgraded?  I really don't know that answer as I haven't researched the newer Dish PVR's.  I owned three DP's at the end of my Dish experience.

The downside for that much space is that when the drives are somewhat filled up the speed of the unit goes down.  Hence the new one is for recording the shows that we plan on watching in the immediate near future.  As a former Dish customer I couldn't be happier with the tivo's. 

 

marko

01-16-03, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Augie #70

I had two DTivo's until last Sunday when I purchased a new HDVR2 from Tweeter for 199.99.  (no special pricing - their everyday price to set the record straight on the cost of the new units)

Why do I need so many?  One in the basement for my kids to use, two in my family room for my wife & I to use.  Yes, I can record 4 shows at a time, I've never had the need to do so but I have in many cases recorded three at the same time.  As far as disk space, my older DTivo has 2-120 gb drives in it for a total recording capacity of 230 hours.  Can the 721 unit be upgraded?  I really don't know that answer as I haven't researched the newer Dish PVR's.  I owned three DP's at the end of my Dish experience.

The downside for that much space is that when the drives are somewhat filled up the speed of the unit goes down.  Hence the new one is for recording the shows that we plan on watching in the immediate near future.  As a former Dish customer I couldn't be happier with the tivo's. 

 

Man, that is quite a setup. Think I was being narrow minded in my thinking of how/when people watch tv. Depending on the situation, I could see how having 2 recording systems would be nice, but I still can't see how people would ever need to record 3 tv shows at once, but that's just me.

Curtis0620

01-16-03, 01:00 PM

Thursday night, Friends, Survivor, & a sporting event.

raj2001

01-16-03, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Z'Loth
I'm not interested in the sports package beyond Kings games. However, Dish offers the superstations package....something which DirecTV doesn't offer.

Supers are irrelevant to me since I live in New York.

Besides, supers days are numbered, since Dish is using a technicality to get around the SHVIA.

Regular "cable" programming on both services are almost identical, with minor differences, and Dish offering more educational, public interest and shopping channels. DirecTV has more sports.

raj2001

01-16-03, 01:20 PM

The best thing I like about the 721 is the fact that it has the 120GB hard drive and PiP. The worst thing I hate about it is that there is no name based recording. This means it's still like a VCR with timers and I can't program something like a season pass or wishlist.

spanishannouncetable

01-16-03, 04:44 PM

Heh heh, I have 2 Series 1 DirecTiVos (a stock Sony & a 106 hr upgraded Philips) connected to 1 TV, and have actually been recording 4 shows at a time on more than one occasion (gotta love sweeps months).

There is a guy on the tivocommunity who has 6 Directivos ($99 series 1's), and uses them to keep track of every game on NHL Center Ice at the same time :eek2:

Six 721's would be $3000 for the hardware ALONE. I don't know what programming he has, but the same three grand would cover the cost of his DirecTiVos ($600), NHLCI for 2 years ($320) and TC Premier w/locals (which includes DVR service) for 2 years ($2064). I guess hockey fans know how to be dedicated on a budget :D

Mark

01-16-03, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by DaYooper

But doesn't it bother people that they are paying $5 a month for absolutely nothing? I can understand why TIVO has to charge a fee on the SA units, but what service does Direct TV provide that requires a monthly charge? They already provide guide data for all of their customers. Is there some extra "service" Direct TV has to provide to TIVO users?

Please note that I'm asking this as a valid question. I'm exploring my options because my free Dishplayer PTV service expires in a few months and I refuse to pay a fee for ANY PTV service.

BTW, does Direct TV still offer a "lifetime" option for TIVO?

I guess this question was answered while I was typing my reply.

BTW, I haven't looked that long, but you can get a 721 system for as low as $339 via the internet.

 

WHERE???? I am a existing customer....

spanishannouncetable

01-16-03, 06:34 PM

NEW subs can get a 721 SYSTEM (receiver and dish installed) for the ~$340 price.

Existing subs get the privilige of shelling out $500 or more :p

DLF

01-17-03, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Curtis0620
Thursday night, Friends, Survivor, & a sporting event.

The three things I hate most. No wonder I catch up on my reading Thursday nights.

Mark Holtz

01-17-03, 10:03 AM

What about CSI?

riekl

01-21-03, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Ken Seeber

On the other hand, I paid $101 more for the 721, but I don't have to pay the $13 per month or $250 "lifetime" Tivo fee. It will have paid for itself by spring, thank you very much.

Umm .. actually its $4.99 / month not $13 :) And you get a great deal more features for that $4.99 then you get with the Dish 721. Season passes, wishlists, suggestions, showcases, etc. So in reality that $101 is going to take you 20 months to recoup, and you will still be missing out on features :)

goblin

01-22-03, 01:45 PM

There are some (non-software) differences between the two units. The HDVR2 only has a 40 Gig drive (approx $100+ to replace with a 120 Gig) and I believe it only has a 90 day warranty (which surely gets nixed if the drive is updated) -- while the 721 comes with a 1 year warranty.

I'm not saying this balances the 721 price out (far from it), but the disparity is not as great as it seems when one compares equivalent hardware and replacement warranties.

spanishannouncetable

01-22-03, 05:44 PM

The HDVR2 warranty is 90 days on labor, 1 year on parts. Upgraders nearly always wait at least those first 90 days before cracking it open.

There is not a single report on the tivocommunity of warranty service being denied on an upgraded unit.

IMHO, a $300 upgraded DirecTiVo ($200 + $100 for bigger drive) is still a much better deal than a $500 721. The HDVR2 would have a 160 gig capacity (factory 40 + added 120), and even if the DirecTiVo unit went bad out-of-warranty, a new one is $200 and the $100 drive could be reformatted and used in the replacement unit.

marko

01-22-03, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by spanishannouncetable
The HDVR2 warranty is 90 days on labor, 1 year on parts. Upgraders nearly always wait at least those first 90 days before cracking it open.

There is not a single report on the tivocommunity of warranty service being denied on an upgraded unit.

IMHO, a $300 upgraded DirecTiVo ($200 + $100 for bigger drive) is still a much better deal than a $500 721. The HDVR2 would have a 160 gig capacity (factory 40 + added 120), and even if the DirecTiVo unit went bad out-of-warranty, a new one is $200 and the $100 drive could be reformatted and used in the replacement unit.

Can you really get a 120 gig hard drive for $100 now? I thought that would only get you about an 80 gig hard drive, and a 120 gig hard drive costing about $150+ still. Makes a little difference. So take $100 for an additional 80 gig drive, you now have equivalent storage. The price difference is $200, which would take a little over 3 years to make up the PVR fee (unless you get premier). 721 price needs to be about $400 I think. Then I think they would compare pretty well.