Is Mozilla Irrelevant? [Archive]

MarkA

01-14-03, 08:58 AM

Apple wants independece from large companies, thus the reason they went with a Konqueror base. I'd guess it's also a little easier to customise to make it look like a real Apple application. I'd hardly call Mozilla irrelevant though. Mozilla has a large user base, as do Opera and Konqueror (and Konqueror can only grow now...).

James_F

01-14-03, 09:07 AM

What is you definition of large? 5% of the market?

PeterB

01-14-03, 09:19 AM

Personally Id call the Macintosh platform Irrelevant, if anything.

gcutler

01-14-03, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by James_F
What is you definition of large? 5% of the market?

Exactly, I went to test the New Lotus Notes/Domino 6 web access via Mozilla on Redhat Linux 8.0 and the Domino Web Server came up and said said "Must use IE 5.?+ or Netscape 4.7". I doubt the MS-Exchange "Outlook for Web" does any better without IE (haven't tested it with Linux client) So from a corporate point of view the Two Biggest e-mail systems out there (easily covering 95% of corporate) have ignored Mozilla.

And except for Tinkerers like ourselves (who also have access to IE) the # of home users using it cannot be that big. I do not know anyone (out of 100 home users) who are using Mozilla.

The only people who are using exclusively are probably those who are so anti-ms that they refuse to use any MS products and I think those #s are mighty small.

James_F

01-14-03, 09:56 AM

Which brings me back to my point. If Mozilla was good, why didn't apple use it? Because as they said, its bloated and isn't very fast. Sounds irrelevant to me.

Good point about Domino web access. Isn't IE built into Notes?

Chris Blount

01-14-03, 10:02 AM

Is Mozilla Irrelevant? YES!

Why? Because if you talk to any web developer they will tell you that they do not program for Mozilla so as far as the business world, it's dead. Deal with it.

Also, how many average computer users really care which browser they are using? You take Joe Shmo from Kentucky (no offense Kentucky) and ask him which browser he uses, he probably wouldn't even know much less care.

gcutler

01-14-03, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by James_F
Good point about Domino web access. Isn't IE built into Notes?

They used to offer it on the install CD (not necessary any more). But it isn't built in, but you have the ability (just clicking a setting) to allow IE to be the DLLs used for all HTTP functions. So if I click on a link or surf the web in notes I am really running IE seamlessly from within notes (just don't see the IE menus or headers)

James_F

01-14-03, 10:21 AM

That must be it. I only used the client for about 1 year before I moved to my current company which uses Exchange.

MarkA

01-14-03, 10:29 AM

"What is you definition of large? 5% of the market?"

In a market of millions, yes.

"Personally Id call the Macintosh platform Irrelevant, if anything."

NONSENSE! Apple Mac is irrelevant to the business world and to home computing. But in still image editing, video production, and audio mixing environments the Mac is king. It's not irrelevant - it's aimed at a different market, which is a smaller market.

"Why? Because if you talk to any web developer they will tell you that they do not program for Mozilla so as far as the business world, it's dead. Deal with it."

Maybe small sites, but any major business online WILL make sure their site works on every darn browser they can get it to work on. Why? Lost sales if they don't. Most sites, even e-commerce sites, don't comply to W3C, but most web commerce sites are close enough to work on most stuff, and they certainly make sure they work on Mozilla. Heck 3% of millons of people is still a lot of customers.

"
Exactly, I went to test the New Lotus Notes/Domino 6 web access via Mozilla on Redhat Linux 8.0 and the Domino Web Server came up and said said "Must use IE 5.?+ or Netscape 4.7"."

Ignorant detection. It would, in 99% of cases, probably work fine if they didn't block you out. Possibly the worst darn example of this is Argos (a MAJOR catalogue store in the UK). They block out Mozilla users, but I don't see why? I mean, I bet the site would work on Mozilla.

James_F

01-14-03, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Zac
In a market of millions, yes.
Come on. 5% is nothing.
NONSENSE! Apple Mac is irrelevant to the business world and to home computing. But in still image editing, video production, and audio mixing environments the Mac is king. It's not irrelevant - it's aimed at a different market, which is a smaller market.
Actually I agree with you on this point. In the graphics market Macs still rule at my company which has standardized on Windows 2k.
Maybe small sites, but any major business online WILL make sure their site works on every darn browser they can get it to work on. Why? Lost sales if they don't. Most sites, even e-commerce sites, don't comply to W3C, but most web commerce sites are close enough to work on most stuff, and they certainly make sure they work on Mozilla. Heck 3% of millons of people is still a lot of customers.
Mozilla and Netscape (as well as Apple) all use ESPN as an example of how "compatible" their site is. They all "hack" their browser to work with ESPN since ESPN.com is a IE centric site. You don't get much bigger on the web than ESPN.com.
Ignorant detection. It would, in 99% of cases, probably work fine if they didn't block you out. Possibly the worst darn example of this is Argos (a MAJOR catalogue store in the UK). They block out Mozilla users, but I don't see why? I mean, I bet the site would work on Mozilla.
IBM can do what ever they want with their software. Why are they being Ignorant? The reason it requires IE is because it uses Microsoft's version of Java, not Suns as well as some ActiveX controls. That brings up a whole different issue, could they make it work, but they don't' .

JBKing

01-14-03, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Chris Blount
...Joe Shmo from Kentucky...

Hey! What about Joe Sixpack from Texas! ;)

Chris Blount

01-14-03, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Zac

Maybe small sites, but any major business online WILL make sure their site works on every darn browser they can get it to work on.

Where did you get this information? References please.

Why? Lost sales if they don't. Most sites, even e-commerce sites, don't comply to W3C, but most web commerce sites are close enough to work on most stuff, and they certainly make sure they work on Mozilla.

Again, where did you get this information? Do you really think that a paid web developer with a deadline will worry about this unless the client pays them the extra time to check if Mozilla will work? You really need to backup your claims.

gcutler

01-14-03, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Chris Blount
Where did you get this information? References please.

Again, where did you get this information? Do you really think that a paid web developer with a deadline will worry about this unless the client pays them the extra time to check if Mozilla will work? You really need to backup your claims.

And I'm sure there was probably a study figuring out how much the average Non-IE user buys vs the # of non-IE users vs the cost of developing for Non-IE. So it is all possible that some number cruncher determined that an extra 100k to get it workin with Mozilla would only equal an additional 99k or sales, not gonna get done :D

MarkA

01-14-03, 11:39 AM

"Again, where did you get this information? Do you really think that a paid web developer with a deadline will worry about this unless the client pays them the extra time to check if Mozilla will work? You really need to backup your claims."

Simple experience. Go to every darn company that sells stuff (except Argos) online and it will work with Mozilla, Opera, and probably Konqueror. In marketing, it's bad business to say no to people because of their browser. It's no different from not allowing people driving an import into your store. It's stupid, and possibly discrimination (though there's one town, I forgot where, that it's illegal to park an import at city hall...).

PS, for that matter - show me ANY major website that is not compatible with Mozilla 1.2.1 EXCEPT Argos (because I already acknowledged the stupidity of Argos).

Chris Blount

01-14-03, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Zac

Simple experience. Not good enough. Have you asked the webmasters of a few E-Commerce sites if they were paid to make sure their sites work with Mozilla or other browsers? Might be a good project for you. Let us know your results if you do decide to find out.

MarkA

01-14-03, 12:26 PM

I might. But it won't be as an education inquiry. I might send out letters asking companies what their policy on HTML compliance and browser compatibility is, and push the need for a free and open internet :) Let me think about it :)

James_F

01-14-03, 12:43 PM

Zac, no project I have worked on in the last 3 years has put money into making sure the project works on Mozilla/Netscape. No one pays money for it anymore.

MarkA

01-14-03, 12:53 PM

That's sad. I have no other words for it. That goes directly against the spirit of the Internet.

gcutler

01-14-03, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Zac
That's sad. I have no other words for it. That goes directly against the spirit of the Internet.

When the Internet was run by a bunch of eggheads in Gov't and Education facilities, that was the "spirit of the internet". When it got privatized it became a business "The Spirit of the Internet" went out the window. It is pure capitalism now and has been for years. Pay-Porn Sites and Internet Access to Corporate services (buying stuff like at Amazon) or Online Trading or checking my savings account balance online is what the Internet has pretty much become (peoples BLOG sites and little info sites do not push the purchase of DSL/Cable Modems) it is the ability to work from home or download patches for "purchased" SW and other capitalistic issues that pushes the advance of the internet.

"The Spirit of the internet" has been dead for years, it may be sad, but it is a fact. When you get out into the real world you will see it quite clearly. And dealing with a college IT department dosen't count. I've taught/consulted with both Corporate and Education entities and the Academic world exists is its own little bubble that often has no connection to reality.

James_F

01-14-03, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Zac
That's sad. I have no other words for it. That goes directly against the spirit of the Internet.

Why? I do lots of work for the Navy and they actually pay me to make sure the site doesn't work in any browser but IE.

MarkA

01-14-03, 01:59 PM

"When it got privatized it became a business "

It got privatised? When? I didn't know that... See, here I thought that it was still an open world wide network!

""The Spirit of the internet" has been dead for years, it may be sad, but it is a fact. "

That's sad.

"Why? I do lots of work for the Navy and they actually pay me to make sure the site doesn't work in any browser but IE."

Of course they do. The government is seriously corrupt. They're practically owned by Microsoft... VOTE GREEN PARTY!

PS, before you say the government isn't corrupt, there are only two explanations:

1.) Corruption. The government was paid (not necessarily with cash, possibly through services) to help prevent competition to Microsoft.

2.) Ignorance. They don't know better, and think browsers like Mozilla are less secure (when, personally, I'd NEVER make an online purchase using IE)

So the government (at least the Navy) is corrupt or ignorant. That's both sides of the story. Decide which you want to believe Neither is pretty.

James_F

01-14-03, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Zac
It got privatised? When? I didn't know that... See, here I thought that it was still an open world wide network!
Who do you think owns the lines, who sets the standards. Not the government. :rolleyes:

That's sad.
Why? Innovation still happens and the quality is much better than those early years when I had to go to Carnegie Mellon University to do a search (Lycos), or use Gopher for research. Heck, life is much better now.

Of course they do. The government is seriously corrupt. They're practically owned by Microsoft... VOTE GREEN PARTY!
Why are they corrupt? My company uses only Microsoft products. Does that my me corrupt?

MarkA

01-14-03, 02:16 PM

"Why are they corrupt? My company uses only Microsoft products. Does that my me corrupt?"

If Microsoft is giving you "incentives" to only use their products, yes. It shows you're willing to sacrifice your moral values for money (ie - you're willing to be bribed). If you honestly believe their products are the best for your needs (the reason I bought Windows XP), then no.

gcutler

01-14-03, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Zac
"When it got privatized it became a business "

It got privatised? When? I didn't know that... See, here I thought that it was still an open world wide network!

Who runs the top layers of the internet in the free world, Sprint, MCI, AT&T, Worldcom. The government wants nothing to do with administrating the internet, it is administrated by the Telecoms. Even your smallest Mom and Pop ISP will eventually link up to one of the top level telecoms. Now if we are talking China's top level connection, that is run by the Gov't but that tends to be only in dictatorships.

Look at this map to see the top providers...the map is a few years old so the names may have change...

http://research.lumeta.com/ches/map/gallery/isp-ss.gif

Article
http://www.nwfusion.com/newsletters/isp/2001/00846039.html

List of Backbone providers...

http://navigators.com/isp.html

etc...etc...etc...

Even An Interactive Map, COOL!!!! (old data, but the # of Backbone Providers has decreased due to mergers and bankruptcys
http://www.caida.org/tools/visualization/mapnet/Backbones/

James_F

01-14-03, 02:18 PM

My moral values? :rolleyes:

Again you prove you have no clue about the real world. You are so full of sh*t.

Steve Mehs

01-14-03, 02:40 PM

I used Mozilla once and I didn't like it, got rid of it, basically samething as Netscape which I also don't like anymore, ever since v6.

Yep the government is owned by Microsoft :rolleyes: , Gates for Prez!

I only use MS applications at home, except for Front Page, Dreamweaver is much better and in the next Office release (2005?), if MS can't improve it be be more like Dreamweaver or GoLive, FrontPage will be dead. MS Encarta 2003 Ref Ed. is the best reference suite I've used in a long time (since Encarta '96 as a matter of fact) People will continue to use Microsoft products, including me, I've tried my share of alternatives but MS continues to lead the industry.

MarkA

01-14-03, 02:55 PM

What? So idealism is a crime now? I still believe Microsoft can be made to play fair!

James_F

01-14-03, 03:01 PM

No but telling me I shouldn't use Microsoft is just as bad as Bill telling me I have to upgrade my version of MS Office every year.

lee635

01-15-03, 03:44 PM

Well here in the world of higher education, Mozilla is alive, well and the preferred browser. All our PCs are loaded with Mozilla. I tried it and wasn't all that impressed, so I use IE.

Also, it may be true that the Internet transports over long distance carrier lines, but don't underestimate the level of influence and technical control that American universities exert over the Internet.

And the next generation Internet2 is already up and running on most campuses. The crazy thing about that is I can download faster from an overseas university, than a US-based non-university site. That's because non-educational/research traffic still gets routed over to the pokey old internet. :)

gcutler

01-15-03, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by lee635
Also, it may be true that the Internet transports over long distance carrier lines, but don't underestimate the level of influence and technical control that American universities exert over the Internet.

But one thing is apparent, if MS wants to do something that is non-standard, there is little stopping them and it will probably become a standard. Was is ASP that was non standard that became a standard by MS implementing it (instead of Java?) Not being a developer I don't know the details, may have gotten some names wrong, but you get the jist of my statement.