Surprise Retailer Chat

[Surfer Joe]

Just got an email from Charlie, they're having a retailer chat next Tuesday the 21st at noon. Earthlink DSL is the topic...

[Cyclone]

Earthlink is a pretty good ISP. It will be shame what Charlie is about to do to them :D

[Scott Greczkowski]

Yeah they are doing a Re-Do of Tuesday's Chat and will be announcing Dish Networks new DSL Plan (WHich besides Earthlink will also be SBC)

Could Internet access for the 721 be far behind? Hmmm....

[Jacob S]

I have heard of Earthlink being mentioned before for bringing internet access to the 721. They had better let us use our own isp for the 721. What about those that do not have Earthlink or whoever they choose to provide the internet access as a local phone number? That would not be fair for those that cannot access it, as the internet feature would be useless to them.

A lot of people are NOT going to want to pay extra to use the internet feature on the 721 since it is not as good as using the computer. Also a lot of people that have satellite live in the country where cable is not available in which would be more likely to not have a local dial up number for Earthlink or another major provider.

[Mark Holtz]

Originally posted by Cyclone
Earthlink is a pretty good ISP. It will be shame what Charlie is about to do to them :D

:coffee :lol: :thats:

:computer: I don't know about their DSL service, but working for a small ISP, we have had customer defect from EarthLink back to us for dial-up simply because our prices were cheaper and our customer service was much much better.

Maybe a dealer can call in and ask about trade-up or upgrade offers from older receivers to newer receivers, especially in the PVR lines. (i.e. trade up from a Dishplayer or a 501 to a 508 or 721).

Also, maybe a dealer could ask about adding a "training video" for customers that could be downloaded overnight to new receivers. This is already being done with the new features video.

Also, if an existing customer orders a 721 through a dealer, will they run a second coax line or upgrade the switch? Is there special version of the Coax cable that looks like two cables side by side, but at the switch and IRD end, can be seperated?

[jeffwtux]

This is another idea I hate with an intense passion. This will be another way to separate the have's from the have nots. So people who can get DSL will get a discount off Dish. That's a rippoff to those who can't. There should be no discounts given just because you are lucky enough to be able to get DSL. I will make my opposition for this plan well known. Dish brags that satellite is the service that's available anywhere. Now they will be insisting that you get a service that's available NOWHERE. I can't tell you how much I hate this idea. DSL IS DEAD ANYWAY, because of availability and deployment problems.

[Mark Holtz]

Originally posted by Jacob S
I have heard of Earthlink being mentioned before for bringing internet access to the 721. They had better let us use our own isp for the 721. What about those that do not have Earthlink or whoever they choose to provide the internet access as a local phone number? That would not be fair for those that cannot access it, as the internet feature would be useless to them.

There is also a reluctance of people to switch ISP providers because of the e-mail address that they've had for ages. One of the plans that my ISP offers is a $9.95 plan that includes 30 hours of Internet access plus one e-mail address. Obviously, this isn't geared for the heavy Internet user, but for someone who uses dialup to just check e-mail and stocks and that's it.

[scooper]

Originally posted by jeffwtux
DSL IS DEAD ANYWAY, because of availability and deployment problems.

Not hardly - (satisfied DSL user !)
My phone company (also my employer) is striving to make DSL available as far as practical, and they are exploring new technologies that increase the range from the CO from 3 miles to 16 miles. I've seen the DSLAM in CO's where I didn't think there was a chance of it being there (we're talking SMALL Co's, even)!

[jeffwtux]

Well, I live in an EXTREMELY WEALTHY AND INNER SUBURB of Detroit, and it's not avaible and won't be anytime soon, and most RBOCs have completely halted all new RTs that will expand the range of DSL from the CO until they get their demands from the FCC. Everybody with half a brain knows what the 3 biggest problems with broadband access:
1. availability
2 availability
3 availability

Everybody also knows which broadband service is the best:

THE ONE AVAILABLE FIRST

At any rate, DSL isn't nearly available enough to go and promote savings only to people who can get it.

[jeffwtux]

and Earthlink dial-up is rippoff.

[dbronstein]

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want internet access on their satellite box. It just seems to me to be a complete waste of development resources that could be used to improve the PVR functionality.

Can those of you who want internet access in the 721 please enlighten me? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand why people want this so badly.

Dennis

[MikeW]

It would seem to me that this is simply another way to compete with cable. Currently, if you subscribe to regular cable, you get $10.00 off the "regular" Cable Modem price. Here, that's $39.99 w/cable & $49.99 w/out. DSL is currently 1/3 the speed and is going for $44.99. Even if I got $10.00 off that price, if they don't get the speed up, I'm not biting.

[Jacob S]

So the internet access on the 721 will be high speed or dial-up? Or will it be only high speed and if that is the case what about those not having access to high speed internet?

[RichW]

Originally posted by dbronstein
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want internet access on their satellite box. It just seems to me to be a complete waste of development resources that could be used to improve the PVR functionality.

Can those of you who want internet access in the 721 please enlighten me? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand why people want this so badly.

Dennis

Enhanced and customized EPG services for one. I agree that the majority of ways we use the net and the web today are best left to a real computer, but having internet connected appliances could add a lot of functionality to them. Not so unconventional when you think about it. Even in the early days, folks would connect vending machines, coffee pots, etc to the net as a novelty. (Anyone remember "Paul Hot Tub" in Michigan or the Cambridge University Coffee Pot?".

Right now when I put an audio CD in my CD-ROM, my PC goes to the net and gets the track info from CDDB.com. Not an earth-shaking application, but useful nonetheless.

The only problem I have is that if they put too much intelligence gathering into Internet appliances and start violating privacy or propagating spam to the TV set.

[Jacob S]

A movement for merging tv and the internet together.

[jeffwtux]

Oh, I see. So money from general subscriber revenue is going to pay for development of services that not everybody can get, and then also to give the lucky ones that get the enhanced services a further discount. That sounds like a double whammy if you can't get DSL, and most can't, and it's not being deployed. Project Pronto was supposed to be completed by December 2002 and is not even halfway done and completely halted.

[jeffwtux]

Don't buy your RBOC's spin either. If you can't get DSL today, you won't ever without major regulatory changes. It's not becoming more available every day right now. Plus, anybody who can't get DSL, but has an RBOCs POTS service is a total sucker.

[Karl Foster]

If Directv couldn't make a go of Directv DSL, what makes Dish Network think theirs will be any more successful? Not a flame, just an observation.

BTW, I have WebTV access through Ultimatetv (dial-up only, not DSL) and it rarely if ever gets used asit doesn't have the ability to print, and the fact that others in the family don't necessarily want to watch me surf the web on the family room tv. It was a good novelty at first, but it wore off quickly. That is what I have a computer for. YMMV.

[Jacob S]

What is project Pronto all about? What were their goals and why did they not get done?

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by RichW
Enhanced and customized EPG services for one. I agree that the majority of ways we use the net and the web today are best left to a real computer, but having internet connected appliances could add a lot of functionality to them.

These can be provided via software updates. I can't think of any EPG services that could only be done by making the user have to go on the internet. Aside from the actual Internet itself - browsing, e-mail, etc. - I can't think of any features that aren't just software enhancements. Maybe I'm not thinking outside the box enough.

Dennis

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by jeffwtux
Don't buy your RBOC's spin either. If you can't get DSL today, you won't ever without major regulatory changes

Not necessarily, but it won't be any time soon, at least if you're in Qwest's region. They stopped rolling out the remote terminals because they don't have the cash and won't have it any time soon. It has nothing to do with regulatory issues.

Debbus

[jeffwtux]

Project Pronto(aka "Project Slowmo") was SBC's plans to deploy RTs to expand DSL availability to 80% of all of their customers(rural and nonrural) by December 2002. It was barely started. The whole goal was to deploy RTs, but they reniged when the feds wouldn't let them bar any competitors from them.

[PeterB]

Well Im using DSL right now via SBC/SNET through a remote terminal that no other DSL is allowed on.

Cable Internet is just like Cable TV, YMMV. I had @home then they pulled the plug on AT&T and I was through ATTBI.

The speeds were cut, and cut and cut, while the prices went up and up and up. They were offering The same speeds for the same price.

Off to non-shared DSL I went.

[dbronstein]

I can't get DSL. AT&T finally wired us for cable modems in November and it rocks. Haven't had a single problem yet.

Dennis

[dlsnyder]

Originally posted by jeffwtux
Don't buy your RBOC's spin either. If you can't get DSL today, you won't ever without major regulatory changes. It's not becoming more available every day right now. Plus, anybody who can't get DSL, but has an RBOCs POTS service is a total sucker.

What is that supposed to mean? That anyone who has a regular wired telephone in an area that doesn't offer DSL is a sucker? Like anyone really has control over that!

[scooper]

jeffwtux - since you're NOT in the Telco business - I have to assume that your posts on this subject are sour grapes. Just like cable TV, each area's TELCO(s) are doing a different job. In MY area (Central / Eastern NC ), both Sprint (my employer, BTW, as well as my local Telco) and Bell South are offering, advertising, and EXPANDING the areas that DSL is offered in. Time-Warner Cable is also pushing their RoadRunner cable modem service. I've heard that other cable companies in the state are also expanding their cable modem service. What sucks is if you happen to live in an area that neither are available, nor is any technological improvement likely to make either available. And you can read here that satellite broadband simply can't compete - bad pricing model, and bad latency. It's really only for those who can't get earth-based broadband.

[Steve Mehs]

It's a fact I'll never be able to get DSL here, unless it's IDSL, which I won't hold my breath for. 56K will have to do for the next few years until satellite broadband becomes more affortable.

[Mike123abc]

I see a lot of work here in my area of TX with DSL. DSL is now in my neighborhood. They ran fiber out to a box in this area, and cut 2 miles off the switch. It really helps regular modems too, used to be 21k now get 48k. To the surrounding small towns they have done the same thing, they run fiber down the side of the highways to the local switches. My parents have had DSL in a town of 25k for over 2 years (in OK). Yeah the farmers and ranchers around here will probably never have DSL or Cable modem, but if you are in any sized town at all they will probably have DSL (seen it run to a town of 800 15 miles away). All these markets are Southwestern Bell markets. Maybe project Pronto is running slower, but it still is running.

[jeffwtux]

scooper, no I'm reading and hearing telco executives say just that before congress. DSL deployment has halted at least when it comes to deploying new RTs. That's what the executives say.

DLsnyter: what I mean is that if you have an RBOCs land line service you are simply paying for other people's dsl. If you want a land-line, stick it to the RBOCs and get CLEC dsl. You can get your first month free with MC Neighborhood(you're stuck with RBOC POTS if you want DSL so you should take advantage of this if you can't get it). Then the RBOCs will pay you $20-$40 to come back, you take that, and then go to the the next CLEC for a free month.

[Steve Mehs]

and Earthlink dial-up is rippoff.

How do you figure. It's $21.99/month which is pretty much a standardfor the big national ISPs, I get a $2 bringing it down to $19.99, the old price. I'm always able to connect, hardly any disconnections, not much spam. I've been going back and forth from local ISPs to Juno, AOL (not since version 3 though) to few free trials with MSN and again free trials with AOHELL (4 credit cards=4 free months) to many others. Finally ended with with Sprint Internet Passport, which was bought out by Earthlink 6 months later. I can't say enough about Earthlink.

[jeffwtux]

You just said how is $21.95 a rippoff. You had Juno which is $9.95. I've had Access4Less.net which is $5.95. Dial up is all the same why pay 4x times as much.

[scooper]

Jeff - all dialup IS NOT the same. Not in my experiance anyway...

[Steve Mehs]

My 2 month experience Juno didn't even compare to Earthlink. Only reason I even tried Juno, because they had a promotion sign up for a month and get a free scanner, assuming the scanner was USB I went with it, got a lame EPP Umax and canceled. Ended up getting a Compaq USB scanner at Sears a few months later.

ISPs I've had- Compuserve, Prodigy, AOL, Wizard (local), BuffNet (local), A La Carte (local), Net Zero, Juno, AT&T, MSN, and the only one that satified me, Earthlink/Sprint. Juno may be be only $10 but $20 for Earthlink is well worth it.

Plus with Earthlink you have the option to use their s/w or use the standard windows DUN, I hate using an ISPs software, and I'm glad Earthlink doesn't force me to use it.

[jeffwtux]

Well the best dial-up ISP service I've ever had was BigNet which was only $6.25/month when paid in 6 month installments. However, that was a Detroit Lions season ticket-holder special. Bignet is also a phone company with long-distance service. They had more dial-up numbers in Michigan than anybody. I was never dropped even when idle for hours(SOMETIMES THAT ACTUALLY WAS A BAD THING!!), and I think had less than 5 busy signals in 2 years.

[jeffwtux]

I've never heard anybody having trouble with Access4Less either.

[Jacob S]

I think it does make a difference with the provider you go with because some will have slow speeds, lots of disconnects, poor customer service compared to other ones.

Wireless may be the wave of the future to remote areas where high speed internet may never be availabe at. Prices just need to come down.

[Steve Mehs]

Also depends on the dial up #. There's one dial up number for Earthlink I never have any luck with and there the one I use 99% of the time which is pretty stable. Only thing I dislike about Earthlink, is after 12 hours (to the second) of continuous connection you get cut off, no matter if idle or active. I understand why they do it, I just don't like it :)

[Jacob S]

Yes, you are right. It depends on where you live and if you live in the country more than likely you will also have less dial up numbers in addition to no high speed internet access.

[jeffwtux]

Jacob:
well, it's against the rules but Sprint PCS Vision is very affordable and can be connected to a computer, but it breaks the rules. When compared to their Free and Clear Plans, it's less than the cost Earthlink.

[BobMurdoch]

Best reasons to get it.....

1. Able to read text on 57" screen vs. computer monitor. Great when the wife and kid want to get info from a medical site, museum site for homework, etc.

2. able to surf while I pause the TV and let the buffer build up so I can skip commercials.

3. interactive/enhanced TV (Game Show Network, etc.)

4. Check/pay bills (American Express, etc.)

5. check email (from my AOL or MSN accounts, which BOTH let me bring my own access.... if you're curious I have both as my wife primarily uses the AOL account and I use the MSN account. As AOL will not let two people online at the same time, I keep the 2nd as a backup. Plus MSN has better email management (spam filters etc.)

[MikeW]

It's after noon on the 21st..no update on this post yet?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Nothing to report.

Dealers can sell Earthlink DSL and Dialup service, the savings to the customer are really no better then going and signing up directly from Earthlinks Web Page.

Other happenings from the chat were mentioned in other threads (The addition of KNWS 51 to the Houston Locals and Internet Access on the 721)

No mention of The For Sale Sign on the Uplink Centers lawn. :D

[Mark Lamutt]

The chat was basically about partnering with Earthlink to offer DSL service or dialup service at a discounted rate. Plus further clarification about the new price structure.

[Jacob S]

They always have two retailer chats a month but only one consumer chat each month.

[jeffwtux]

See that bundle deal is BS. They shouldn't penalize people because they can't get DSL. I AM A DISHNETWORK RETAILER, AND I SAY THIS IS WORSE THAN CABLE, WORSE THAN ANYTHING ANY CABLE COMPANY HAS EVER EVER DONE. At least when cable makes their bundled savings, the savings are available to ALL the customers at least in the cluster. Even if some customrs wanted the max bundled savings they couldn't get it. They should be giving AT LEAST a $10 for dial-up+dish bundle, AT LEAST. The profit margins on dial-up are far higher, why do you think all the DSL piggy-backers go out of business. So basically, the people who can't get DSL are subsidizing the lucky ones that can. If this causes standalone DIsh rates to go up $0.01, then it is the biggest outrage in this history of satellite TV. It's worse than YES.

[jeffwtux]

If I was only a customer, of Dish, I'd be calling and harassing every CSR until they submitted to my demands and gave me the $10 discount on dial-up and dish.

[jeffwtux]

This would also give me more reason to harass SBC to give me DSL. Broadband access, especially DSL is a very political and ugly business. THERE IS NOTHING HiGH-TECH ABOUT DSL. DSL IS MORE LIKE WASTE MANAGEMENT THAN HIGH-TECH.

[Jacob S]

Also some do not have computers so it would be useful for those that do not and want internet capabilities.

[jeffwtux]

Jacob: but that's choice. As long as you're offered the bundled savings, it's sort of OK. Cable get's bashed for requiring cable TV to get cable modems at a reasonable price, however, at least everybody can get the bundled price. Not the case here.
Oh, this is different from locals too. At $5.99 for each local package, they aren't being subsidized by anything. Currently, there aren't any promotions that give locals for free for any period of time either.

[jhall]

so how many free PCI slots are there in a 721? It could act as a router and if you could put an HDLC NIC into the chassis along with an ethernet NIC, your 721 could service a LAN. and a DS1. Now people would argue that DS1s cost tons, but they need not, the phone people just want money and can get away with it. Even a fractional DS1 is acceptable to most.

[Surfer Joe]

The EarthLink package is a sham. Anybody can get EarthLink DSL for $44.95 just by calling EarthLink direct. $5 discount my big old hairy butt.

On a positive note I've had EarthLink DSL through my local cable company (Time-Warner) and it rocks! Never had a problem with it at all and the best part is that EarthLink has a referral program that gives you a month free just for referring a friend. I've turned on some friends and have gotten the credit on my next bill.

[jeffwtux]

Surfer Joe, but it's also a $5 discount off your Diish bill for as long as you keep both services(and the promotion is still offered). WHERE IS THAT $5 going to come from?????? Who's going to pay that $5? The pitiful, hapless peasants who can't get DSL, that's who. This is robbing from the poor to give to the rich. Most of telecom is just that.

[jeffwtux]

Anybody, who can't get DSL yet sticks with their RBOC is complete idiot who doesn't care about money. If you can't get DSL, you might as well take advantage of that and switch local phone companies month to month(DON'T BUY THE FUD, THERE IS NO RISK, WE ARE DEALING WITH late 19th century TECHNOLOGY HERE in the 21st century) and get free months from the CLECs and bribe back deals from the RBOC. Make your own bundle that's what I do.

[Mark Holtz]

Slight problem. My local phone company qualifies as a "small phone company" under FCC rules, and thus, CLECs cannot come in and compete. The only DSL that is available is through the phone company.... noone else.

[dlsnyder]

Originally posted by jeffwtux
scooper, no I'm reading and hearing telco executives say just that before congress. DSL deployment has halted at least when it comes to deploying new RTs. That's what the executives say.

DLsnyter: what I mean is that if you have an RBOCs land line service you are simply paying for other people's dsl. If you want a land-line, stick it to the RBOCs and get CLEC dsl. You can get your first month free with MC Neighborhood(you're stuck with RBOC POTS if you want DSL so you should take advantage of this if you can't get it). Then the RBOCs will pay you $20-$40 to come back, you take that, and then go to the the next CLEC for a free month.

No real options in my neighborhood. Verizon is the phone company, Adelphia is the cable company. Adelphia doesn't offer cable modem service to my street yet (probably never will) or local phone service. DSL is available from Verizon and a few CLECs including Earthlink (I am just over 6000 ft from CO). I have no need right now for DSL though as cost/benefit doesn't add up for me. Dial up connect at 50666 via Juno at $9.99/mo. is good enough for my current needs. :) I have high speed access at work where I do the vast majority of my web-surfing ;) I haven't found any compelling reason for it at home yet that would justify the extra $40.00/mo. Any suggestions that might change my mind?

My wife doesn't buy the idea that it's "cool"! :cool:

[jeffwtux]

A cable modem connection is a little easier to justify than DSL. Cable modems are usually cheaper and can replace a phone line making futher savings. You need a phone just to get them to sell you DSL so you won't be saving any additional money from it just spending more. If you could throw away the phone line and just use your cell phone(which is always a better value than a landline) with a cable modem, you might save money AND get broadband access. That's where I see the growth.

[guest]

Also, If you are a USAA member it is $17.95. Good deal for a ISP that rate well in the computer and consumer magazines.


Originally posted by jeffwtux
and Earthlink dial-up is rippoff.