Ces2008 - Hdpc20

[Earl Bonovich]

The official information about the HDPC-20

Product Brochure
Front (http://hr20.dbstalk.com/images/ces2008/hdpc20_front.jpg)
Back (http://hr20.dbstalk.com/images/ces2008/hdpc20_back.jpg)

[phat78boy]

Any price or release date time frames yet?

[Earl Bonovich]

Any price or release date time frames yet?

No

[Greg Alsobrook]

very cool earl.... did they actually have one of these on hand today? i don't remember seeing any pics of it...

[Earl Bonovich]

very cool earl.... did they actually have one of these on hand today? i don't remember seeing any pics of it...

They did not.

[Jeremy W]

What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?

[tony4d]

What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?
Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.

Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

[Draconis]

Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

If they are saying Vista I'm betting that people running XP MCE (like me) will have to upgrade to use it. <sigh>

[tony4d]

Well, on paper and in pictures this thing rocks. Now I just gotta wait for 2G windows home server that includes media center server. Plug 2 of these in there and I have a sweet dvr system for the house.

[tony4d]

If they are saying Vista I'm betting that people running XP MCE (like me) will have to upgrade to use it. <sigh>


Considering they didn't have one at the event it probably won't launch anytime soon, I'm guessing. Anyway, by that time vista sp1 will be out and you should upgrade anyway :D

[Jeremy W]

Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.
I could see it possibly being used for IP callback. It could certainly be possible that DirecTV doesn't want that data traversing through a computer on it's way out. But VOD downloads should definitely be done directly through the computer, since they're stored on the computer.

[Tom Robertson]

The very good news is there is a complete Product number and real product brief. That indicates it's on the way.

Of course, you know it's really about to ship when one of us writes the DBSTalk First Look. :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Draconis]

Anyway, by that time vista sp1 will be out and you should upgrade anyway :D

Actually, I already bought Vista Ultimate, I've just been too lazy to install it.

After all, if it aint broke...

I'm rather looking forward to the HDPC-20, and with those 1 TB HDD's they were showing at another booth you are looking at some great storage space.

[tony4d]

I could see it possibly being used for IP callback. It could certainly be possible that DirecTV doesn't want that data traversing through a computer on it's way out. But VOD downloads should definitely be done directly through the computer, since they're stored on the computer.
Yea, but even that doesn't make sense. Just because it needs to to call back doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not it needs to send it out on the wire. It could easily just use the PC's network card.

I dunno, got me, makes no sense.

[OverThereTooMuch]

Looks awesome, sign me up!

I would LOVE to have my PC video + DVR video all in one place.

Seems like this thing could plug right into a WHS machine today.

Seems odd that they give you MRV capabilities with Vista PC's, but not with their own receivers (unless I just haven't gotten to that CES announcement yet :))

[dklippi]

Any price or release date time frames yet?

Hahaha. As if price matters with this group! I see people with 4 Xbox 360's, 17 HD20's, 100" plasmas, Blu-Ray, etc.....

Date, now that is important! System Requirements would be helpful too so I can start building my new computer now. I have held off upgrading to Vista until this product ships, but I can't wait much longer.

[BarkingGhost]

I think I am about to cancel my two HR21 orders. If this provides the same HD DVR MPEG-4 functionality with me being allowed to create a storage solution then it would be better for me.

Probably a ten year commitment. :D

[ToddD]

The very good news is there is a complete Product number and real product brief. That indicates it's on the way.

Of course, you know it's really about to ship when one of us writes the DBSTalk First Look. :)

Cheers,
Tom

Yes and a FCC ID:Pace TDS540ND

[WyldeStile]

This gives me a reason to hold of on my HD PC Tuner card.

[jkast]

Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?

[CiXel]

The Ethernet port is probably akin to the phone line in other receivers ie. authorizing PPV for the tuners and the like.

[ladderless]

This seems to answer my dreams for a whole-house DVR... Is anyone having consistant success with HD over WIFI? That would complete the circle for me, especially if I didn't need a ful-fledged computer at each TV.

[robd54]

If i missed this questions I apologize, but will it support HD on the PC and recording HD channels to can be watched over an xbox360? Thanks!

[BudShark]

If i missed this questions I apologize, but will it support HD on the PC and recording HD channels to can be watched over an xbox360? Thanks!

HDPC certainly implies HD - but the brochure doesn't state specifically.

It will perform any function a tuner in Media Center will - so yes streaming to Xbox360 is a go.

Chris

[spoonman]

Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.

Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

I saw this too :nono2:

[UnnDunn]

Mac support?

And honestly, if DirecTV can do this without requiring a brand-new, CableCARD certified PC, why can't the Cable folks do it?

[BudShark]

Probably for VOD and connecting to DirecTV, which would be pretty dumb considering the thing is connected to a full-fledged PC.

Interesting the fine print mentions that it requires a media center pc running "windows vista". So is xp media center edition out? Probably not, and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

I would say XP is definitely out - I never expected anything else.

Two reasons:
1) XP doesn't have the tuner security that I'm sure DirecTV (and its providers) were looking for. Cablecards are only compatible with Vista. At least this solution doesn't require OEM boxes!

2) Microsoft probably required it. They don't want to continue developing new/highly desirable products on XP. They want to continue to build reasons to drive people to Vista and artificially locking new *toys* to Vista is one way they do it.

Chris

[BudShark]

Mac support?

And honestly, if DirecTV can do this without requiring a brand-new, CableCARD certified PC, why can't the Cable folks do it?

I don't think DirecTV/Apple ever announced an agreement/partnership, whereas DirecTV/Microsoft did. I think until Apple commits the same resources (people/money/whatever), DirecTV will have little incentive to work with them.

Although this works for me (MSFT guy), I do feel bad for the Mac/Linux users out there. Perhaps if its USB and the security is built into the box... maybe maybe the decoding tools will be opensource or otherwise available to allow the connection in the near future.

Chris

[turey22]

so i could connect this to my pc and it would let me watch a show, movie, or live stream on pc and tv? what else will it do?

[CaMS]

What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?

I heard that it was only for Development, and it would not be on the final version..those pics that where shown are still prototype's in the design area..but M$ does currently have it up and running inside of VMC.. if you look at the pics, it does not list the ethernet port under input\outputs

[UnnDunn]

so i could connect this to my pc and it would let me watch a show, movie, or live stream on pc and tv? what else will it do?
It will allow you to record shows using Windows Media Center on Vista, and in conjunction with a Media Center Extender (eg. Xbox 360 or HP MediaSmart TV), will allow you to watch live and recorded shows on said TV.

An advantage of this is it presumably counts as only one receiver on your account, but Windows Media Center allows streaming on up to 4 Extenders at the same time, network conditions permitting, but you'll only be able to tune two channels simultaneously, so one wonders how they will reconcile that. Even with that limitation, this will serve as a fantastic whole-house DVR solution.

[digitalfreak]

Has it been confirmed by D* that this will indeed be a stand-alone product, and not require a new PC purchase to get one (ala the OCUR boxes)? I've seen a lot of speculation, but no confirmation from any of the folks that actually talked to D* yesterday.

[UnnDunn]

Also, it occurs to me that a Sat-Go style portable antenna would be fantastic in conjunction with this and a media center lapotop.

[Earl Bonovich]

Also, it occurs to me that a Sat-Go style portable antenna would be fantastic in conjunction with this and a media center lapotop.

That would be a tremendous amount of "stuff" to carry around..

[Earl Bonovich]

At this point... probably just VISTA SP1 and up...
One of the reasons for the delay was because of the security issues around the content, that have supposidly been resolved with Vista SP1

As for the network port.
We will see how this unit communicats with XBOX360... maybe it is possible with software updates on the XBOX360... it can communicate directly with it, instead of through a PC

[CaMS]

It will allow you to record shows using Windows Media Center on Vista, and in conjunction with a Media Center Extender (eg. Xbox 360 or HP MediaSmart TV), will allow you to watch live and recorded shows on said TV.

An advantage of this is it presumably counts as only one receiver on your account, but Windows Media Center allows streaming on up to 4 Extenders at the same time, network conditions permitting, but you'll only be able to tune two channels simultaneously, so one wonders how they will reconcile that. Even with that limitation, this will serve as a fantastic whole-house DVR solution.

it will work with any v2 extender such as the new dlink & linksys as well as the 360 and the new HP one...
If this unit is not OEM only, im sure there will be a hack that will let you run 2 of these things..so you can get 4 tuners

[BudShark]

I'd be ok with 1 of these, and OTA tuners. It would eliminate the limitation of the HR2x of only 2 recorded streams. If you could record two OTA, two Satellite, and have your recorded content - I think 1 of these boxes would be fine with extenders...

of course, the more tuners the merrier!

Chris

[Lee L]

I heard that it was only for Development, and it would not be on the final version..those pics that where shown are still prototype's in the design area..but M$ does currently have it up and running inside of VMC.. if you look at the pics, it does not list the ethernet port under input\outputs

Well, let me introduce the DirecTV marketing department to a little program called Photoshop. ;) They could have just edited the darn port out rather than get people all excited or confused.

[Qusix]

I'm currently a cable subscriber. I think the time has come for me to make the switch. I'm looking forward to this product.

[bhelton71]

The thing that scares me about this :

Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program

Delete ?
OK
A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
OK
Are You Sure ?
OK
This file will not fit ...
OK
This operation requires elevated status...
OK

[Earl Bonovich]

The thing that scares me about this :

Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program

Delete ?
OK
A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
OK
Are You Sure ?
OK
This file will not fit ...
OK
This operation requires elevated status...
OK

And the problem is?

You can turn off or by pass all of those questions, if you want to disable those features.
I don't want to turn this into an OS battle thread.

But now having used Vista for the last 9 months or so... it is getting a very unfair "rap" out there.

[ToddD]

The thing that scares me about this :

Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program

Delete ?
OK
A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
OK
Are You Sure ?
OK
This file will not fit ...
OK
This operation requires elevated status...
OK

Sounds to me like you've been watching too many Mac commercials.....

[JayB]

The thing that scares me about this :

Its probably for Vista only - so imagine trying to delete a program

Delete ?
OK
A program has requested blah, blah .. Allow ?
OK
Are You Sure ?
OK
This file will not fit ...
OK
This operation requires elevated status...
OK

I understand you're probably kidding here, but I thought I'd mention that I've yet to have media center under Vista give me more than a single confirmation prompt.

[bhelton71]

And the problem is?

You can turn off or by pass all of those questions, if you want to disable those features.
I don't want to turn this into an OS battle thread.

But now having used Vista for the last 9 months or so... it is getting a very unfair "rap" out there.

That was not my intention at all - and from what I understand sp1 will relax some of the dialogs. It was a feeble attempt at humor - ala mac and pc guy commercials.

I will now crawl back into my hole.

[MIAMI1683]

Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.

[rgreenpc]

Earl -

Any chance if you can find out how many of these wonderful machines one can stick on a single PC?

[greynolds]

A few observations:

1) This is AWESOME news.

2) I would have thought they could have put it into a smaller box - 7" tall is a bit much. I'll find a way to make it fit though :D.

3) I really hope that 2 (or more) of these will work together on the same PC. I currently have a BeyondTV system that uses 6 HD OTA tuners - it's rare that more than 2 are going at the same time, but it does happen. It would be great to have 2 HDPC20's (4 Sat tuners) along with 4 HD OTA tuners all connected to the same box.

4) I'll upgrade to and Vista and use Media Center if I have to, but I really hope there will be a way to make these work with with BeyondTV (and SageTV) - even if I still have to upgrade to Vista.

It'll be interesting to see what the pricing will be AND when we'll be able to get our hands on these.

[DustoMan]

Earl -

Any chance if you can find out how many of these wonderful machines one can stick on a single PC?

My guess is only one, but can you imagine having two or three of these on one PC? That's 4-6 video streams! LOL! :eek2:

[SENATOR]

I believe that Butthead captured it best when he said, "This is the coolest thing... I have ever seen."

[ToddD]

Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.

SP 1 will be a automatic update for all vista systems from Microsoft update sometime around the end of February. It's no big deal...I'm typing this on a Vista SP1 system. As far as I know no update to any extender including x360's would be required.

[Earl Bonovich]

That was not my intention at all - and from what I understand sp1 will relax some of the dialogs. It was a feeble attempt at humor - ala mac and pc guy commercials.

I will now crawl back into my hole.

Sorry... it is early morning here in Vegas, and my cold is still in full force.

[CaMS]

Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.

NO, it will not be Vista SP1.. you will need the next Vista Media Center update, its codenamed " Fiji ". You will prob. here more info after SP1 gets released, which is hopefully soon, prob. by march.. then we have to wait for the Fiji update, then we are ready to goo..

This is not confirmed but I'm just "assuming" that the Fiji update will be around the 08 Holiday season.. Remember there is no Public beta not even to the elite M$ beta testers YET.. its only available internally to M$.. Usually when a M$ product hits beta, it RTMs around 8 months or so..and thats not including any big holdups..

So just be patient.. SP1 is a step into getting the system ready for this card... and yea it will control the UAC a little better, meaning not 1000 prompts and will beef up security and prob. put some security in place for these tuner card

[MIAMI1683]

SP 1 will be a automatic update for all vista systems from Microsoft update sometime around the end of February. It's no big deal...I'm typing this on a Vista SP1 system. As far as I know no update to any extender including x360's would be required.

Nice, kewl stuff. I like Vista and it's been rock solid for me so that's nice to read.:)

[BudShark]

You know Earl... I could be on a plane by 10:00am Eastern if you need someone to take your place out there... :D

Chris

[Earl Bonovich]

Ealr, if you you are right the the Vista that the public uses now would have to be updated to sp1. Correct? Even the 360 would require a download to make it work.

99.9% chance that it will need SP1, as over the last year... that was one of the main reasons why the unit didn't move foward faster (the HDPC-20).

SP1 is already an RC IIRC, so available for download to anyone that wants it today, and soon ready as a full blown released item...

And given that people have commented that the 360 can't talk directly to an item like this, yes... I would think the 360 would need a software update to talk directly to it.
If that is going to be an option (that is just speculation regarding the comments of working with 360 in the documents)

[bakerfall]

99.9% chance that it will need SP1, as over the last year... that was one of the main reasons why the unit didn't move foward faster (the HDPC-20).

SP1 is already an RC IIRC, so available for download to anyone that wants it today, and soon ready as a full blown released item...

And given that people have commented that the 360 can't talk directly to an item like this, yes... I would think the 360 would need a software update to talk directly to it.

A lot of the extender stuff is actually on the PC side (you need to install extender software when initially setting up the connection to the 360), so most likely there is an update on that end. The 360 may also have an update, but I think most of it will be PC based.

I'm really pumped for this, but I'll have to start prepping the wife that I need to buy a new computer. :)

[MIAMI1683]

That's big news. I didn't realize sp1 was already downloadable I may try to load it tonight.

[ToddD]

Earl -

Any chance if you can find out how many of these wonderful machines one can stick on a single PC?

As has been the case with past media center products (turners) the official answer is 2 tuners or in this case one HDPC20. But "hacks" exist to add more than the officially supported number of tuners. The most interesting thing will be if these reside in the analog tuners space or digital one. Media center has a official limit of 2 of each type. Please do not be confused by the tuner space names, there are lot s of tuners that tune digital TV streams but reside in the analog tuner space,CableCard being one such example.

It has been reported that the next Media Center update (Fuji) will add official support for 4 tuners in each space. Fuji is expected latter this year.

[digitalfreak]

My guess is only one, but can you imagine having two or three of these on one PC? That's 4-6 video streams! LOL! :eek2:

I already have 4 OTA tuners in my Vista MCE machine. All 4 can record at one time without a single hiccup. I've seen folks with 8 tuners running at once. :D

[BudShark]

A lot of the extender stuff is actually on the PC side (you need to install extender software when initially setting up the connection to the 360), so most likely there is an update on that end. The 360 may also have an update, but I think most of it will be PC based.

I'm really pumped for this, but I'll have to start prepping the wife that I need to buy a new computer. :)

The thought/remote possibility is that the HDPC20 will work directly off the USB port of the 360 - effectively turning the 360 into an advanced DirecTV receiver (no PC, no extender, no Vista - just a 360)

Which would be really cool for dorms/colleges/apartments... I'd like the MRV solution of having it on a PC, but IF they make it work directly with a 360 I can see the value.

Chris

[CaMS]

NO, it will not be Vista SP1.. you will need the next Vista Media Center update, its codenamed " Fiji ". You will prob. here more info after SP1 gets released, which is hopefully soon, prob. by march.. then we have to wait for the Fiji update, then we are ready to goo..

This is not confirmed but I'm just "assuming" that the Fiji update will be around the 08 Holiday season.. Remember there is no Public beta not even to the elite M$ beta testers YET.. its only available internally to M$.. Usually when a M$ product hits beta, it RTMs around 8 months or so..and thats not including any big holdups..

So just be patient.. SP1 is a step into getting the system ready for this card... and yea it will control the UAC a little better, meaning not 1000 prompts and will beef up security and prob. put some security in place for these tuner card

And as far as the 360.. YES it will need a update to work with playing the Directv content...remember as of right now its VERY limted on the codecs it can play.. ESP. on the extender end..

[MIAMI1683]

A lot of the extender stuff is actually on the PC side (you need to install extender software when initially setting up the connection to the 360), so most likely there is an update on that end. The 360 may also have an update, but I think most of it will be PC based.

I'm really pumped for this, but I'll have to start prepping the wife that I need to buy a new computer. :)

My extender was built in right from Vista. It comes up and finds my 360 from the start without any help. It's literally just plug and play. I use Vista Ultimate. Maybe thats why

[bakerfall]

My extender was built in right from Vista. It comes up and finds my 360 from the start without any help. It's literally just plug and play. I use Vista Ultimate. Maybe thats why

I used Vista for a while but it didn't like my video card so I switched back to xp media center, I guess I don't remember all the steps.

It was pretty painless with XP, from what I remember, but definitely involved an install.

[BudShark]

And as far as the 360.. YES it will need a update to work with playing the Directv content...remember as of right now its VERY limted on the codecs it can play.. ESP. on the extender end..

Actually when used with Vista and Media Center- it shouldn't. Vista would be doing to capture/recording and the result would be a standard media center encoded file/stream which would work just fine with the Xbox360 - same as cablecards, etc... It would just be another tuner.

Chris

[ToddD]

That was not my intention at all - and from what I understand sp1 will relax some of the dialogs. It was a feeble attempt at humor - ala mac and pc guy commercials.

I will now crawl back into my hole.

Hope you did not feel like you were being picked on....it's just that those Mac commercials have made us Vista people rather sensitive. :eek2:

[CaMS]

Actually when used with Vista and Media Center- it shouldn't. Vista would be doing to capture/recording and the result would be a standard media center encoded file/stream which would work just fine with the Xbox360 - same as cablecards, etc... It would just be another tuner.

Chris

Not sure on that, is the cablecard systems MPEG4??

[bakerfall]

Actually when used with Vista and Media Center- it shouldn't. Vista would be doing to capture/recording and the result would be a standard media center encoded file/stream which would work just fine with the Xbox360 - same as cablecards, etc... It would just be another tuner.

Chris

That's kind of what I'm thinking. I don't believe there have been any extender updates for the 360 yet, (although there should be as codec support does not trickle down from Media Center). So far as TV is concerned, it shouldn't be an issue.

[Yogi76]

What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?

This is from a post I also made on the The Green Button.

You will notice there are acutally two USB ports and an ethernet port. One USB is a USB "A" plug, which is typically used for an incoming USB connection, while the other is a USB "B" plug, normally for an outgoing USB connection. I would assume the USB "B" is for connecting the tuner straight to a Media Center computer.

The ethernet and USB "A" plug are a little more tricky. If I had to guess (and this is only a GUESS), I would say it's for networked tuning support similar to an HDHomerun; the ethenet port for wired access, obviously, and the USB port for an add-on wireless device. Remember, most people that currently have DirecTV have the cables running from the dish to their living room or bedrooms, not to their home office. For someone who will have their Media Center computer in the living room connected directly to the TV, they will simply connect the HDPC-20 via USB. For those that want to have the computer in the office and use an Extender, they will be able to place the HDPC-20 behind the TV in the living room using the existing DirecTV cabling and then connect it to their home network for the home office PC to control. I use a similar setup with my HDHomerun and cable (clear QAM) currently.

Also, something else that makes me think (hope) it is for network tuning is the fact that the original OCUR test devices had ethernet tuning capabilities. It was even mentioned in the AnandTech review that it would be removed in the first models to be added back in at a later time. That hasn't happened yet on the digital cable tuners, but they run into less of a problem with coax coming into the house. Many homes have cable coax outlets in every room already. DirecTV typically runs straight from the dish to the device, and currently that device is in the living room for the great majority of DirecTV subscribers.

I can't post a URL on this board yet, but you can see the original OCUR with ethernet and mention of it's removal by searching for "ocur ethernet anandtech" on Google.

Yogi

[ToddD]

Not sure on that, is the cablecard systems MPEG4??

The Media Center security for Advanced TV (today CableCARD) does not store the files in the transmitted formats. So the File that will be played back from the Media Center will be a WMV stream...no update to the extender is needed....and remember if we are talking X360 it has two different playback file sets, one for extender and one for x360 dashboard.

[UnnDunn]

Is it possible that this device would transcode incoming MPEG4 signals into MPEG2 before sending it to the PC? It seems to me that would solve any codec issues...

[ToddD]

This is from a post I also made on the The Green Button.

You will notice there are acutally two USB ports and an ethernet port. One USB is a USB "A" plug, which is typically used for an incoming USB connection, while the other is a USB "B" plug, normally for an outgoing USB connection. I would assume the USB "B" is for connecting the tuner straight to a Media Center computer.

The ethernet and USB "A" plug are a little more tricky. If I had to guess (and this is only a GUESS), I would say it's for networked tuning support similar to an HDHomerun; the ethenet port for wired access, obviously, and the USB port for an add-on wireless device. Remember, most people that currently have DirecTV have the cables running from the dish to their living room or bedrooms, not to their home office. For someone who will have their Media Center computer in the living room connected directly to the TV, they will simply connect the HDPC-20 via USB. For those that want to have the computer in the office and use an Extender, they will be able to place the HDPC-20 behind the TV in the living room using the existing DirecTV cabling and then connect it to their home network for the home office PC to control. I use a similar setup with my HDHomerun and cable (clear QAM) currently.

Also, something else that makes me think (hope) it is for network tuning is the fact that the original OCUR test devices had ethernet tuning capabilities. It was even mentioned in the AnandTech review that it would be removed in the first models to be added back in at a later time. That hasn't happened yet on the digital cable tuners, but they run into less of a problem with coax coming into the house. Many homes have cable coax outlets in every room already. DirecTV typically runs straight from the dish to the device, and currently that device is in the living room for the great majority of DirecTV subscribers.

I can't post a URL on this board yet, but you can see the original OCUR with ethernet and mention of it's removal by searching for "ocur ethernet anandtech" on Google.

Yogi


You raise a good point ...most people do not realize that while OCUR turners plug into the PC via USB they are network devices . They have a embedded Web page. There has been talk of a OCUR over ethernet.

[chrisfowler99]

Hmm...2 USB ports. Chaining?

The PC Link port looks like the one that will go directly to the PC.

And there's another USB port. Another HDPC20? An AM21?

Curious...

[bhelton71]

Hope you did not feel like you were being picked on....it's just that those Mac commercials have made us Vista people rather sensitive. :eek2:

Not at all - it was a poorly placed joke in a very public thread - this one might hit 20,000 reads before the end of the week.

[Yogi76]

Some of the big questions that have been longstanding in the MCE community regarding the DirecTV tuner are:

1.) Will it be OEM only requiring the purchase of a "certified" computer with a special BIOS, etc.?

2.) Will it wrap all recordings in DRM like the current CableCard Media Center recordings? This prevents the use of tools like DVRMSToolbox, transferring recordings to a laptop, or the transcoding of recordings for use on portable devices?

3.) Price and availability? I know we probably won't get the answer to this one, but I can hope on the first two.

Yogi

[mikela]

This is from a post I also made on the The Green Button.

You will notice there are acutally two USB ports and an ethernet port. One USB is a USB "A" plug, which is typically used for an incoming USB connection, while the other is a USB "B" plug, normally for an outgoing USB connection. I would assume the USB "B" is for connecting the tuner straight to a Media Center computer.

The ethernet and USB "A" plug are a little more tricky. If I had to guess (and this is only a GUESS), I would say it's for networked tuning support similar to an HDHomerun; the ethenet port for wired access, obviously, and the USB port for an add-on wireless device. Remember, most people that currently have DirecTV have the cables running from the dish to their living room or bedrooms, not to their home office. For someone who will have their Media Center computer in the living room connected directly to the TV, they will simply connect the HDPC-20 via USB. For those that want to have the computer in the office and use an Extender, they will be able to place the HDPC-20 behind the TV in the living room using the existing DirecTV cabling and then connect it to their home network for the home office PC to control. I use a similar setup with my HDHomerun and cable (clear QAM) currently.

Also, something else that makes me think (hope) it is for network tuning is the fact that the original OCUR test devices had ethernet tuning capabilities. It was even mentioned in the AnandTech review that it would be removed in the first models to be added back in at a later time. That hasn't happened yet on the digital cable tuners, but they run into less of a problem with coax coming into the house. Many homes have cable coax outlets in every room already. DirecTV typically runs straight from the dish to the device, and currently that device is in the living room for the great majority of DirecTV subscribers.

I can't post a URL on this board yet, but you can see the original OCUR with ethernet and mention of it's removal by searching for "ocur ethernet anandtech" on Google.

Yogi


Do you think the extra usb port could be for direct connection to a storage device or anything else besides networking?

[BudShark]

Not sure on that, is the cablecard systems MPEG4??

Doesn't matter...

The HDPC20 will decode the MPEG4/MPEG2 stream and feed it to Vista Media Center. Vista will take the stream from the HDPC20 and process it in the same way it would OTA, cable, cablecard, etc. The result should be a Media Center file with DRM to limit the distribution of the content.

Anyhow - the resulting file would be served up no different to an Xbox360 extender than anything else on that Media Center. They won't have special encoding for DirecTV and the extender will not need to decode raw DirecTV streams...

Chris

[ToddD]

Is it possible that this device would transcode incoming MPEG4 signals into MPEG2 before sending it to the PC? It seems to me that would solve any codec issues...

If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.

This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.

[Earl Bonovich]

Some of the big questions that have been longstanding in the MCE community regarding the DirecTV tuner are:

1.) Will it be OEM only requiring the purchase of a "certified" computer with a special BIOS, etc.?

2.) Will it wrap all recordings in DRM like the current CableCard Media Center recordings? This prevents the use of tools like DVRMSToolbox, transferring recordings to a laptop, or the transcoding of recordings for use on portable devices?

3.) Price and availability? I know we probably won't get the answer to this one, but I can hope on the first two.

Yogi


For #1: It is not expected to be an OEM only item.
For #2: You can all but guarantee that DRM will be involved with the recordings

[DirecTV3049]

Well, I'll take my turn at getting whacked.

Why the ethernet port?

Well, if you think about it as just a glorified HR20 set top box for a PC (rather than for a television), doesn't it make sense?

This "set top box" stores data on your PC's hard drive(s) via the USB connection. I'm assuming that that the data stored on your PC is "encrypted" - like it is for the external hard drives some are now using with their HR20s. That is, the data stored on your PC has to go back to the "set top box" to be de-encrypted before you can watch it on your television - so when you want to watcha recorded show, you have to send the encrypted data from your PC's hard drive back to the set top box via the USB connection.

Once the data is unencrypted by the set top box, is there any reason to send the data *back* down to the PC via USB and out to your home network (and extender) via the PC's NIC? From a data security standpoint, it may not even be desirable to do so.

I'm guessing that it probably works "better" (being used here subjectively) for the set top box to just send the unencrypted data directly out to your network through the set top box's ethernet port.

Just a WAG. Now, I'll stand back and prepared to be flamed.

[bakerfall]

If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.

This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.

My guess is this is exactly what would happen.

[jefbal99]

I would venture a guess that the 2nd USB port would be for an OTA tuner such as the AM21

[Earl Bonovich]

I would venture a guess that the 2nd USB port would be for an OTA tuner such as the AM21

Or it could just be a USB Hub, so that you don't have to use a hub, and can directly connect the device... ect....

It is getting kinda common to see mini hubs in usb devices not ment to be disconnected on a regular basis.

[bakerfall]

I would venture a guess that the 2nd USB port would be for an OTA tuner such as the AM21

I would say that's highly unlikely. As Earl mentioned in the other thread, this probably wouldn't be the case. Plus, D* would have no real need or reason to venture into PC OTA solutions, when there are already plenty of companies successfully making them.

[mva5580]

Hi everyone, I joined this board simply on this news alone, this is THE thing I've been waiting for. I'm going crazy over here lol. I guess the one thing I want to make sure of before I'm 100% sure that my cable is going to be canceled and I'm going DirecTV is that this will undoubtedly play all of the HD stations over the PC without any issues. And not just the OTA stuff, i'm talking the ESPNHD, TNTHD, etc, etc. If and when that is confirmed, oh my. I am IN like crazy lol. I understand that the name "HDPC20" certainly implies it, but I'm just waiting for that confirmation.

[ToddD]

Well, I'll take my turn at getting whacked.

Why the ethernet port?

Well, if you think about it as just a glorified HR20 set top box for a PC (rather than for a television), doesn't it make sense?

This "set top box" stores data on your PC's hard drive(s) via the USB connection. I'm assuming that that the data stored on your PC is "encrypted" - like it is for the external hard drives some are now using with their HR20s. That is, the data stored on your PC has to go back to the "set top box" to be de-encrypted before you can watch it on your television - so when you want to watcha recorded show, you have to send the encrypted data from your PC's hard drive back to the set top box via the USB connection.

Once the data is unencrypted by the set top box, is there any reason to send the data *back* down to the PC via USB and out to your home network (and extender) via the PC's NIC? From a data security standpoint, it may not even be desirable to do so.

I'm guessing that it probably works "better" (being used here subjectively) for the set top box to just send the unencrypted data directly out to your network through the set top box's ethernet port.

Just a WAG. Now, I'll stand back and prepared to be flamed.

I'd guess that the Ethernet port is for IP phone home just as is being added for the HR 2x line...note there is no phone jack!

[breevesdc]

Hey Earl... I'm just throwing this out there.

Does this development mean that D* has given up on their Home Media box (or whatever it was called)? I seem to recall them announcing a Home Media server box a couple of years back. It was supposed to act as a "server" (with all of your SAT/OTA inputs going into it for recording/tuning) which would allow you to connect smaller "client" receivers and stream to each of them. It would seem to me that this venture would be a huge waste of money since people would be much more likely (IMHO) to use Media Center with the HDPC20. With an HTPC, you have a lot more flexibility (size of HD, CPU, RAM, etc.) than you do with a box built by D* that you would have to hack (and thus void the warranty) to upgrade. I would tend to think that anyone interested in this kind of a setup is a techie anyway and would prefer a solution they control instead of one that D* controls. Just a thought.

Brian

[Earl Bonovich]

Hey Earl... I'm just throwing this out there.

Does this development mean that D* has given up on their Home Media box (or whatever it was called)? I seem to recall them announcing a Home Media server box a couple of years back. It was supposed to act as a "server" (with all of your SAT/OTA inputs going into it for recording/tuning) which would allow you to connect smaller "client" receivers and stream to each of them. It would seem to me that this venture would be a huge waste of money since people would be much more likely (IMHO) to use Media Center with the HDPC020. With an HTPC, you have a lot more flexibility (size of HD, CPU, RAM, etc.) than you do with a box built by D* that you would have to hack (and thus void the warranty) to upgrade. Just a thought.

Brian

The HMC that was announced 3 CES's ago (or was it longer).... is pretty much a gone thing.

You have seen pieces of it in their newer systems.

Sure the HDPC-20 could lead you to something like that...
But so will the future MRV feature for the HR20/21

[MIAMI1683]

Ok another question earl, if it has all the tunres and a card will it take the place of my hrxx, one reciever insted of having to pay the lease fee on two. Or maybe D* will doulbe dip you for the access fee, (lease fee)

[CaMS]

Doesn't matter...

The HDPC20 will decode the MPEG4/MPEG2 stream and feed it to Vista Media Center. Vista will take the stream from the HDPC20 and process it in the same way it would OTA, cable, cablecard, etc. The result should be a Media Center file with DRM to limit the distribution of the content.

Anyhow - the resulting file would be served up no different to an Xbox360 extender than anything else on that Media Center. They won't have special encoding for DirecTV and the extender will not need to decode raw DirecTV streams...

Chris

The directv stream is H.264, the 360 currently does not support that codec.. so it will need a upgrade at some point to play it natively on the 360

[jagowar]

Some of the big questions that have been longstanding in the MCE community regarding the DirecTV tuner are:

1.) Will it be OEM only requiring the purchase of a "certified" computer with a special BIOS, etc.?

2.) Will it wrap all recordings in DRM like the current CableCard Media Center recordings? This prevents the use of tools like DVRMSToolbox, transferring recordings to a laptop, or the transcoding of recordings for use on portable devices?

3.) Price and availability? I know we probably won't get the answer to this one, but I can hope on the first two.

Yogi

those are my questions as well....
1. will be a critical step in making this a mainstream product. people are not going to buy new computers to use the product. will be interesting to see what the process is to get the device (who you have to go through to get it). i really want probably 3 of them so hopefully its possible to get that many.

2. having mpeg4 would be good but hopefully dvr-ms can handle it since currently its always been a wrapper for mpeg2. would kinda suck to only be able to record in mpeg2 if dvr-ms/vista isnt capable of mpeg4 compression. Also would hate to lose the ability to stream via webguide and lose my auto commercial editing via lifextender.

3. yeah there is no telling how long the device will take.... im guessing its quite a ways off still.

I really hope directv does the right thing here and make it simple to upgrade to unlike cablelabs. they would become the defacto provider for media center overnight in the US.

[ladderless]

Or it could just be a USB Hub, so that you don't have to use a hub, and can directly connect the device... ect....

It is getting kinda common to see mini hubs in usb devices not ment to be disconnected on a regular basis.

...Or it could be a way to connect a thumb drive to dump video for play on another machine or laptop...

Wait - I think I'm waking up now...

[Earl Bonovich]

Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?

If you are on IE...
Just click on the image, and it will zoom it in.

[bakerfall]

The HMC that was announced 3 CES's ago (or was it longer).... is pretty much a gone thing.

You have seen pieces of it in their newer systems.

Sure the HDPC-20 could lead you to something like that...
But so will the future MRV feature for the HR20/21

Wasn't gonna let that last little bit slide :)

[Earl Bonovich]

Ok another question earl, if it has all the tunres and a card will it take the place of my hrxx, one reciever insted of having to pay the lease fee on two. Or maybe D* will doulbe dip you for the access fee, (lease fee)

Lease fees are based on ACCESS cards.

So if you have an HR20 and the HDPC20 you will be paying two fees (with at least 1 credited with your base subscription)

[UnnDunn]

If it's like the OCUR's for CableCard, The incoming stream is demodulated, decrypted and the mpeg stream is extracted within the turner and the resulting stream is then re compressed in Windows Media format with Windows Media DRM.

This stream is sent to the Media Center Turner app and a encrypted dvr-ms file is spooled to the file system.
I thought DVR-MS files were MPEG2, not WMV...

[bakerfall]

...Or it could be a way to connect a thumb drive to dump video for play on another machine or laptop...

Wait - I think I'm waking up now...

I would think that "dumping" for play on another system would have to go through the Media Center box, not the tuner box, since all the files/file system are stored on the PC.

[ToddD]

The directv stream is H.264, the 360 currently does not support that codec.. so it will need a upgrade at some point to play it natively on the 360

it's not going to work natively on X360....just as an extender. Note that in the info sheet- Vista Media Center is required.

Also not that the X360 has no TV turner controls ....only the extender client app that works with the Media Center extender app.

[MIAMI1683]

Lease fees are based on ACCESS cards.

So if you have an HR20 and the HDPC20 you will be paying two fees (with at least 1 credited with your base subscription)

Yea I thought so, so it won't hook up to my tv in place of say an hr20 and get connetced through your network, It is a standalone device and will have an access card in it, and thus the extra lease fee. So essentially its two more tuners for my pc.

[ToddD]

I thought DVR-MS files were MPEG2, not WMV...

They are....the WMV streams are used for transport from the tuner to the system...the MC turner app decrypts and unspools the streams and rewrites them in a encrypted drv-ms file format.

[bakerfall]

Yea I thought so, so it won't hook up to my tv in place of say an hr20 and get connetced through your network, It is a standalone device and will have an access card in it, and thus the extra lease fee. So essentially its two more tuners for my pc.

Two tuners, but one fee. It's essentially another receiver.

[BudShark]

it's not going to work natively on X360....just as an extender. Note that in the info sheet- Vista Media Center is required.

Also not that the X360 has no TV turner controls ....only the extender client app that works with the Media Center extender app.

Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote isprobably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).

So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB receiver that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.

In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.

Chris

[ToddD]

Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote isprobably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).

So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB receiver that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.

In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.

Chris

Well that would require a lot of changes by the xbox team.....and would be I would think a security nightmare. Plus how do you get around the fact that it says that VMC is REQUIRED.

[Thaedron]

But so will the future MRV feature for the HR20/21

Speaking of MRV, that feature has been suspiciously absent from any of the CES updates. Do you have any insight into why they wouldn't be talking about HR2X - HR2X MRV?

[bakerfall]

Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote probably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).

So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB tuner that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.

In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.

Chris

I would bet the remote would be if you were using your computer to watch tv. If you are using an extender, you would use that remote (or perhaps there will be a universal component to the D* remote allowing you to use it with an extender).

As for it working with a "360 or PS3", that isn't ever going to happen directly. This is a tuner sending raw data to a PC which handles all the work (decoding, guide data, recording, etc.). Neither the 360 or PS3 has this capability. The 360 is also a Media Center Extender which is how it will be able to be used. The PS3 has no such capability.

[CaMS]

todd, ok maybe natively was the wrong word to use.. but the 360 will need some kind of codec upate to support playback from the Directv tuner..

look for example the divx\xvid problem.. the PC can play them fine, so can the dashboard but when u try and play one of those files inside the extender (VMC) portion of the 360 it says video codec not suported..

[Earl Bonovich]

Even on it's first release... it may or may not work DirecTV with XBOX360...
But given that the XBOX360 is nothing more then a very specialized computer, there is no reason to think that if the demand is there...

That something couldn't be done.

[Earl Bonovich]

Speaking of MRV, that feature has been suspiciously absent from any of the CES updates. Do you have any insight into why they wouldn't be talking about HR2X - HR2X MRV?

Because they have been talking about it all year...
And it is something that is already known to be coming.

CES this year is mostly about things that have only been rumored or vaguely references.

[jhrain]

Finally, something I can sink my teeth into! I absolutely cannot wait for this to come out.

We were "THIS" close to walking away from our contract because of no TIVO.

This changes everything... as long as it happens sooner, rather than later.

:sure:

[MIAMI1683]

Two tuners, but one fee. It's essentially another receiver.

Yea it's another reciver for you media network, but won't hook up to your tv. I guess I could extend and get another 360 and out it in the room and get rid off one lease fee or two lease fees with the other hr20 but thats a lot of work to me

[BudShark]

Plus how do you get around the fact that it says that VMC is REQUIRED.

Well... I never said it would work. I just said it was potential and my hope and something we shouldn't rule out.

But how I get around that is simple. Like I said, Day 1 it will be a Vista Media Center tuner - thats it. Down the line, the product features and requirements can be changed. Maybe it will work with Mac, Linux, PS3, Xbox360 - who knows.

Chris

[bakerfall]

Yea it's another reciver for you media network, but won't hook up to your tv. I guess I could extend and get another 360 and out it in the room and get rid off one lease fee or two lease fees with the other hr20 but thats a lot of work to me

You could also buy 4 360s, have it on 4 TVs and not pay any fees (if you remove all your boxes). One receiver is included in your D* subscription, if you have it setup correctly, there is no need to have any other D* boxes.

[rgreenpc]

So do you get two tuners for one fee with this or would you still pay for 2 "cards"?

[bakerfall]

So do you get two tuners for one fee with this or would you still pay for 2 "cards"?

1 card. All DVRs have two tuners, this is no different.

[Steve]

This seems to answer my dreams for a whole-house DVR... Is anyone having consistant success with HD over WIFI? That would complete the circle for me, especially if I didn't need a ful-fledged computer at each TV.I'm not getting how this wouldn't require a computer at each TV, or even provide a whole-house solution. Enlighten me, please? :) /steve

[BudShark]

As for it working with a "360 or PS3", that isn't ever going to happen directly. This is a tuner sending raw data to a PC which handles all the work (decoding, guide data, recording, etc.). Neither the 360 or PS3 has this capability. The 360 is also a Media Center Extender which is how it will be able to be used. The PS3 has no such capability.

Ok - this is all SPECULATION and conjecture on my part, but...

Both the PS3 and 360 are just computers. Thats it. The PS3 already has an announced digital tuner that turns it into a DVR (for Europe) so its a no-brainer that it could work with this - IF they wanted it to.

The 360 already does on the fly decoding of various codecs. There's no reason to think that it couldn't decode the stream coming from the HDPC20.

The truth is both COULD do it. Will either be allowed to is another question.

Chris

[houskamp]

Yea it's another reciver for you media network, but won't hook up to your tv. I guess I could extend and get another 360 and out it in the room and get rid off one lease fee or two lease fees with the other hr20 but thats a lot of work to me
not to mention the power requirements of a pc compaired to a reciever would suck up that 4.99 in a hurry..

[BudShark]

I'm not getting how this wouldn't require a computer at each TV, or even provide a whole-house solution. Enlighten me, please? :) /steve

It would require an XBOX360 or other media center extender at each TV... The extender can stream recorded or live content from the centralized computer which negates the need for a PC/tuner at each TV.

Chris

[MIAMI1683]

You could also buy 4 360s, have it on 4 TVs and not pay any fees (if you remove all your boxes). One receiver is included in your D* subscription, if you have it setup correctly, there is no need to have any other D* boxes.

Right that would work, and my bill would go down :D , but I have all three hrxx so its definately a cool product, but MRV will be better for me I think as Earl has said that is coming also. Very cool guys Earl awesome stuff from out there Thanks again......

D-

[aenea]

It won't be a RF remote, there's no need for it. You don't change channels on the tuner. You tell Media Center, either directly or through an extender, to change the channel and it decides which tuner to use and issues the channel change command and with this device it would use the usb connection. The "special" remote probably just has DirecTV specific buttons.

Yes and no. The brochure states it comes with a "custom remote control" - hence - there is an implication there that this is a "tuner" with a USB output. The remote isprobably RF to allow remote changing of channels (hopefully - and I don't see an IR eye in the picture).

So with that said - the possibilities are really open as to its use. It could be USB control/ethernet control/RF control. It could be a standalone tuner that works on the network, it could be a USB receiver that works with multiple OS's or devices (like a 360 or PS3), etc.

In my opinion, day1 it will be a dedicated Vista Media Center tuner - with DRM and the ability to managed/channel changes via USB. Day 30+ who knows. I have my hopes that this could be something special due to the possibilities implied, but, more likely DRM will severely limit its use.

Chris

[bakerfall]

Ok - this is all SPECULATION and conjecture on my part, but...

Both the PS3 and 360 are just computers. Thats it. The PS3 already has an announced digital tuner that turns it into a DVR (for Europe) so its a no-brainer that it could work with this - IF they wanted it to.

The 360 already does on the fly decoding of various codecs. There's no reason to think that it couldn't decode the stream coming from the HDPC20.

The truth is both COULD do it. Will either be allowed to is another question.

Chris

I guess it's possible, since it's already been announced that the 360 is going to be a Mediaroom reciever (MS IPTV). I guess I just like whole centralized server configuration. :)

[JayB]

You can sign me up for this device. I got an HR20 in May, but ultimately wasn't thrilled with this as a solution since I have to pop back and forth between it an my media center machine for different content. Add the ability to easily add additional storage "at will" and I'm pretty much sold.

[bakerfall]

You can sign me up for this device. I got an HR20 in May, but ultimately wasn't thrilled with this as a solution since I have to pop back and forth between it an my media center machine for different content. Add the ability to easily add additional storage "at will" and I'm pretty much sold.

I'm not going to ditch my HRs and if they get Media Share working better (and with different codecs) along with MRV, it would be almost as good as this.

However, I think it's going to be a long while (if ever) that the HR media experience will be able to compete with the Windows MC one.

[rgreenpc]

This is a tuner sending raw data to a PC which handles all the work (decoding, guide data, recording, etc.). Neither the 360 or PS3 has this capability. The 360 is also a Media Center Extender which is how it will be able to be used. The PS3 has no such capability.

Actually MOST decoding is handled on the cards and is just converted to the DVR-MS format.

I currently run 2 OTA HD tuners and 2 DirecTV boxes via s-video and recording all 4 streams at once I rarely get above 20% CPU usage.

[ToddD]

It won't be a RF remote, there's no need for it. You don't change channels on the tuner. You tell Media Center, either directly or through an extender, to change the channel and it decides which tuner to use and issues the channel change command and with this device it would use the usb connection. The "special" remote probably just has DirecTV specific buttons.

I'd bet that the remote is due to the fact that as MC is now part of Vista (Home Premium and Ultimate ) and not as in the past sold as a special version, most people have the software but no hardware...i.e. a remote!
Yes this allows for it to be a directv remote


You know....that might explain the 2nd USB port... the MC remote receiver uses a USB connection so maybe they have added a USB hub and a usb port for the remote receiver to plug into the turner instead of the pc so you only need 1 USB port on the PC....Also makes it easy to install ....that seems to be an issue if you note the statement on the fact sheet.

[Ryan]

Will it be possible to hook up two (or more) of these units to one PC? 4 tuners x 4 outputs (via extender) with potentially vast amounts of storage via sata raid solutions sounds like the ultimate home media server.

ReplayTV had (has) a feature that would automaticly spread recording duties across multiple units (not quite as necessary with two-tuner satellite equipment); does Media Center do this?

If you can hook up two units to one PC, will media center operate them as two separate devices, or as one 4-tuner device?

Using Media Center, can I integrate a unit like this with something like the HDHomeRun to allow OTA/clear QAM recording all via the same front end?

Wow...the potential for this is quite extraordinary! I guess I'd better start trying out the Media Center features of my PC.

[ChrisL01]

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.

DVR-MS is a wrapper that could theoretically have any format within. Again, it is not WMV.

The Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Exender. The Extender decodes and decrypts video locally. Raw video is not sent over the network, this isn't even feasible.

All tuners that work in Media Center on the PC will work on a Media Center Extender. The DIRECTV tuner is no exception.

Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.

The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.

There have been pictures on the web for years for a DIRECTV Blade on the Xbox 360 Dashboard. If this tuner does work like that, the Xbox 360 Dashboard would need an update. The scans don't make light of this happening. The Xbox 360 as an Extender will work however.

I highly doubt this DIRECTV tune is transcoding video to WMV or MPEG-2 internally. That would be both un-needed and add a significant cost to the product. The MPEG-2 or H.264 video is likely to be wrapped in WMDRM in the same sort of fashion that CableCARD is.

This tuner likely doesn't work in any OS but Vista and only works within the Media Center application within Vista Home Premium/Ultimate. The OS requirement is listed on the scans.

Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.

Vista SP1 is not a feature release, rather a Service Pack. It is not likely that SP1 will make the DIRECTV tuner work. Part of the framework for it to work might be included, but a separate Media Center release (Fiji) is planned at a later date.

The SP1 that can be downloaded now is an Release Candidate. It is not a final release which means you are running pre-production software. I'd use it at your own risk.

Chris Lanier

[bakerfall]

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.

DVR-MS is a wrapper that could theoretically have any format within. Again, it is not WMV.

The Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Exender. The Extender decodes and decrypts video locally. Raw video is not sent over the network, this isn't even feasible.

All tuners that work in Media Center on the PC will work on a Media Center Extender. The DIRECTV tuner is no exception.

Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.

The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.

There have been pictures on the web for years for a DIRECTV Blade on the Xbox 360 Dashboard. If this tuner does work like that, the Xbox 360 Dashboard would need an update. The scans don't make light of this happening. The Xbox 360 as an Extender will work however.

I highly doubt this DIRECTV tune is transcoding video to WMV or MPEG-2 internally. That would be both un-needed and add a significant cost to the product. The MPEG-2 or H.264 video is likely to be wrapped in WMDRM in the same sort of fashion that CableCARD is.

This tuner likely doesn't work in any OS but Vista and only works within the Media Center application within Vista Home Premium/Ultimate. The OS requirement is listed on the scans.

Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.

Vista SP1 is not a feature release, rather a Service Pack. It is not likely that SP1 will make the DIRECTV tuner work. Part of the framework for it to work might be included, but a separate Media Center release (Fiji) is planned at a later date.

The SP1 that can be downloaded now is an Release Candidate. It is not a final release which means you are running pre-production software. I'd use it at your own risk.

Chris Lanier

Thank you for all that. Very succinct and accurate.

[xzi]

Will it be possible to hook up two (or more) of these units to one PC? 4 tuners x 4 outputs (via extender) with potentially vast amounts of storage via sata raid solutions sounds like the ultimate home media server.

Probably not. The current limitation on Media Center is (2) OTA tuners, and (2) regular tuners. I'd imagine this will fall under the later.

ReplayTV had (has) a feature that would automaticly spread recording duties across multiple units (not quite as necessary with two-tuner satellite equipment); does Media Center do this?

Media Center does not do this, and Windows Home Server will NOT add this functionality. Windows Home Server has NO TV or recording capability--it is just a storage OS--everyone seems to be a bit confused about this product.

If you can hook up two units to one PC, will media center operate them as two separate devices, or as one 4-tuner device?

If it was possible, but yes it would actually probably see them as four seperate tuners. My "dual tuner" Adaptec NTSC tuner shows up as seperate devices.

Using Media Center, can I integrate a unit like this with something like the HDHomeRun to allow OTA/clear QAM recording all via the same front end?

Yes, but ONLY because the HDHomeRun fools the OS into thinking it's an OTA device. You can mix OTA and regular tuners, but what you CAN'T do is have a two regular tuners from two different services. The guide only supports OTA and another source.

Wow...the potential for this is quite extraordinary! I guess I'd better start trying out the Media Center features of my PC.

It has some very important limitations to consider and based on the questions you asked you are setting the bar pretty high for Media Center. However, if you have live with the limitations there is no alternative solution that has the support, integration and polish of Media Center. All the open source alternatives support more products and features, but with comes lack of good extender support (XBOX360), lack of product support (no way this will work with them anytime soon) and a definate lack of any sort of "plug and play" setup. You'll be fighting with it weekly to get it work the way you want. Finally, it will lack the big money support from MS, and it shows in their awful menu designs and horrible interfaces.

[CaMS]

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.

DVR-MS is a wrapper that could theoretically have any format within. Again, it is not WMV.

The Xbox 360 can be used as a Media Center Exender. The Extender decodes and decrypts video locally. Raw video is not sent over the network, this isn't even feasible.

All tuners that work in Media Center on the PC will work on a Media Center Extender. The DIRECTV tuner is no exception.

Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.

The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.

There have been pictures on the web for years for a DIRECTV Blade on the Xbox 360 Dashboard. If this tuner does work like that, the Xbox 360 Dashboard would need an update. The scans don't make light of this happening. The Xbox 360 as an Extender will work however.

I highly doubt this DIRECTV tune is transcoding video to WMV or MPEG-2 internally. That would be both un-needed and add a significant cost to the product. The MPEG-2 or H.264 video is likely to be wrapped in WMDRM in the same sort of fashion that CableCARD is.

This tuner likely doesn't work in any OS but Vista and only works within the Media Center application within Vista Home Premium/Ultimate. The OS requirement is listed on the scans.

Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.

Vista SP1 is not a feature release, rather a Service Pack. It is not likely that SP1 will make the DIRECTV tuner work. Part of the framework for it to work might be included, but a separate Media Center release (Fiji) is planned at a later date.

The SP1 that can be downloaded now is an Release Candidate. It is not a final release which means you are running pre-production software. I'd use it at your own risk.

Chris Lanier

Hey chris..

welcome aboard.. i see you received my email.. thanks and hopefully this clears up some things over hear

[bhelton71]

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

<clip>
The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.
<clip>
Chris Lanier

I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?

[dirchm0628]

This is the best news regarding PVR's I've seen. I jumped from Snapstream Beyond TV to HR20-700 in August because of the lack of HD recording capabilities in BTV (non OTA). I recently upgraded a machine to Vista Home Premium with Media Center for photos and music. Now with this devide I could move my HTPC back to my living room and move the HR20-700 to another room. Any Idea if the two devices will see and be able to play each others recordings? That would be the icing on the cake for me.

Also If I put my Dvicio Fusion HD back in the PC will it work in conjunction with the HDCP Direct TV device????

[ChrisL01]

I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?

Yes, but only for the Xbox 360 Dashboard. The Extender function uses different codec's and it does not currently support H.264.

It isn't likely recordings will be playable using the Dashboard because of DRM.

Chris

[CaMS]

I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?

Bh - yes there was but the problem is that the updates that M$ have been releasing are for the dashboard ONLY not the Extender version of the xbox.. The extender team are totally separate from the xbox tean and on a totally different time schedule..hence why u are not seeing updates on the extender side of the 360.. but it will be coming..but no time frame

[xzi]

Media Center does not transcode any video on-the-fly. None. It is not even a feature of Media Center.

Those of us who have been fighting with Transcode360 know this limitation all too well :)

The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.

The XBox360 doesn't decode H.264 within Media Center yet. It does, however, through the blade interface. My understanding from Microsoft is Media Center will do this eventually--right now it is purely a licensing-cost issue as H.264 is not a free CODEC (much like MPEG-2 isn't, either). They have announced it will do it eventually, though, and probably only when you actually have a device that needs it (like this) so as to keep licensing costs down (hell, they will probably back that cost into the price of this device).

[aenea]

Not for the media center client. Just for content played from the dashboard. Since this tuner is for media center, the media center client for the 360 would have to be updated.


I don't have a 360 so I don't know this for fact - but I thought there was an update to enable H264 decoding in the past year ?

[bakerfall]

Not for the media center client. Just for content played from the dashboard. Since this tuner is for media center, the media center client for the 360 would have to be updated.

Right now to get the most out of 360 video playback, you really need to use both the Media Center and Dashboard playback tools.

Media Center codecs: .mpg, .wmv, .dvr-ms

Dashboard codecs: .avi (divx/xvid included), .wmv, h.264

Neither does "everything". Media center on the PC uses your PC's codecs so even things like .mkv work.

[hoyty76]

The Xbox 360 doesn't currently decode H.264. In order to playback DIRECTV HD, the Xbox 360 Extender will need a software update.

Chris Lanier

I normally wouldn't disagree with Chris in regards to MCE stuff but I think you are wrong on this one. The Xbox 360 with HD-DVD has to be able to decode H.264 since some movies are encoded that way. The drive itself doesn't do any decoding so the decoding is done by the 360. It may not have had the ability to decode H.264 via a stream enabled but it surely can decode H.264 or it wouldn't be a complaint HD-DVD drive.

Edit: I see Chris responded to this. I understand the distinction now Extender blade vs. Media or HD-DVD blades. However the codec is available for the 360 so it is more an enabling of it than creating.

[digitalfreak]

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

Currently Media Center supports two (2) NTSC/CableCARD tuners + two (2) ATSC tuners. Unless this official limit changes with the next Media Center release it will mean that one (1) DIRECTV tuner [Dual Tuner] + two (2) ATSC tuners will be supported at once.

Chris Lanier

Chris - since you are 'da MCE man, how does that HTPC vendor that's selling a PC with 4 OCUR tuners getting around the limitation? Can't remember the name unfortunately. I would assume it's using the standard hack, but that seems kinda tricky for a company that has to support a product.

[bakerfall]

I normally wouldn't disagree with Chris in regards to MCE stuff but I think you are wrong on this one. The Xbox 360 with HD-DVD has to be able to decode H.264 since some movies are encoded that way. The drive itself doesn't do any decoding so the decoding is done by the 360. It may not have had the ability to decode H.264 via a stream enabled but it surely can decode H.264 or it wouldn't be a complaint HD-DVD drive.

HD-DVD playback is still done through the 360 software itself, not the MCE software.

MCE and 360 dashboard are two totally different things.

[ChrisL01]

I normally wouldn't disagree with Chris in regards to MCE stuff but I think you are wrong on this one. The Xbox 360 with HD-DVD has to be able to decode H.264 since some movies are encoded that way. The drive itself doesn't do any decoding so the decoding is done by the 360. It may not have had the ability to decode H.264 via a stream enabled but it surely can decode H.264 or it wouldn't be a complaint HD-DVD drive.

This is covered just above is about five posts, but The Xbox 360 Extender doesn't currently decode H.264. The Dashboard can, the HD DVD Playback can, the Media Center Extender function of the Xbox 360 can not.

Hard to believe how stupid that is, but it is very true.

Chris

[ChrisL01]

Chris - since you are 'da MCE man, how does that HTPC vendor that's selling a PC with 4 OCUR tuners getting around the limitation? Can't remember the name unfortunately. I would assume it's using the standard hack, but that seems kinda tricky for a company that has to support a product.

Microsoft has made some changes to the conflict management, but overall the OEM's offering four CableCARD tuners for CI's are basically using the tuner registry hack.

There is really no technical reason four DIRECTV tuners can't be supported, but that's a change Microsoft has to officially make sure they can be setup within the UI.

Chris

[JayB]

Windows Home Server has NO TV or recording capability--it is just a storage OS--everyone seems to be a bit confused about this product.

True. I think the confusion is coming from 2 sources - first the fact that WHS can be a media sharing device. You can configure it, just like with Media Player, to share all the music, pictures, and video on the server - in fact the HR20 will even play the music and pictures shared in this way. Second, there are some tricks that you can do that allows you to use the WHS machine as a storage device for your dvr-ms files - my understanding is that once they're on the WHS and if you have sharing on, it's very similar to the experience you can get (for playback at least) of using the extender setup from Media Center.

Oh and the third thing of my "2" things is that there's the persistent rumor that WHS v2 will allow for tuners and recording. This may be just wishful thinking however, but if it's on the tubes of the interweb, some take it as gospel. :)

[BudShark]

[snip]
A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.
[snip]
Chris Lanier

I think this content answers my point.

The satellite stream coming into the HDPC20 will be demodulated and the MPEG content will be exposed. It will then be wrapped in WMDRM and output via USB (or potentially ethernet). Correct?

So - here's my thoughts/questions:
1) The DirecTV data (including channel, guide, info, etc). Will it be left in stream or decoded and dumped? Media Center pulls its own guide data, so I would assume it would have no use for DirecTVs data correct?

2) The HDPC20 will need to change the frequency to tune various channels. This could be done either via USB, ethernet, the remote control, or an IR extender.

3) The raw WMDRM (in your description) is captured by Media Center and this raw data (which is MPEG2/4) is sent to the 360 for on the fly decoding. So the only thing missing from making this work natively with the 360 (or any other device that is WMDRM compatible/authorized) is the ability to isolate one of the tuners and change the frequency. IF the HDPC20 had a single tuner mode AND the remote was full funtioning - you would have a fully capable USB tuner (obviously the 360 or whatever other device, would need a mode to expose this - but that would be it. The channel changing and demodulation done by the HDPC20, the MPEG decoding done by the 360 or other device).

4) My only questions would be:
Can the HDPC20 insert guide data on the fly?
Is the remote a full functioning remote (able to change channels, list guide, etc)?
Is WMDRM the only sanctioned DRM output or will there be other DRM compatbile output modes?

I am hoping the HDPC20 is basically a H2x with dual tuners and no MPEG decoding chip on board. This would make it the ideal solution. A DirecTV tuner with raw streaming MPEG output (once you could deal with DRM requirements)

Chris

[ShapeGSX]

DVR-MS files can basically be shared with all computers on your home network via network shares, and they should be decrypted fine. I'm not entirely sure what the rules are for this. But yeah, WHS could definitely be a storage device for a different Media Center computer.

[ChrisL01]

I think this content answers my point.

The satellite stream coming into the HDPC20 will be demodulated and the MPEG content will be exposed. It will then be wrapped in WMDRM and output via USB (or potentially ethernet). Correct?

That is how it currently work with CableCARD, so I'd expect the same or near same to be at work here.


So - here's my thoughts/questions:
1) The DirecTV data (including channel, guide, info, etc). Will it be left in stream or decoded and dumped? Media Center pulls its own guide data, so I would assume it would have no use for DirecTVs data correct?

It will likely be using in-band EPG data from the D* stream. See http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archive/2007/12/21/1409645.aspx


3) The raw WMDRM (in your description) is captured by Media Center and this raw data (which is MPEG2/4) is sent to the 360 for on the fly decoding. So the only thing missing from making this work natively with the 360 (or any other device that is WMDRM compatible/authorized) is the ability to isolate one of the tuners and change the frequency. IF the HDPC20 had a single tuner mode AND the remote was full funtioning - you would have a fully capable USB tuner (obviously the 360 or whatever other device, would need a mode to expose this - but that would be it. The channel changing and demodulation done by the HDPC20, the MPEG decoding done by the 360 or other device).

WMDRM is actually Windows Media Digital Rights Management, which would likely be used to protect the content. The reason the Xbox 360 Extender will control it is because an Extender session is local on the PC (basically a separate user account named MCX1, MCX2, MCX3 depending on your Extender).

Making it work directly with the Xbox 360 Dashboard is would a bit more difficult.

Also, for the past five years content that is WMDRM protected for Media Center can't be played back on any device expect the Media Center PC it was recorded on and Extenders. If the same holds, it doesn't matter if the device supports WMDRM or not because Extender's are the only devices that work in the first place (proxy issues, etc).



4) My only questions would be:
Can the HDPC20 insert guide data on the fly?

The EPG data should be in-band, so yes.


Is the remote a full functioning remote (able to change channels, list guide, etc)?

Very likely yes. It is most likely an RC6 remote that will work with any Extender and/or the PC. Your not controling the tuner, the PC is passing the commands to the tuner.


Is WMDRM the only sanctioned DRM output or will there be other DRM compatbile output modes?

Can't tell you for sure, but WMDRM is the only DRM method that has ever been used within Media Center.

Chris

[huskerpat]

as long as I can combine this with an OTA tuner in the MCE program guide, I'll be switching from dish with this is released.

[ChrisL01]

DVR-MS files can basically be shared with all computers on your home network via network shares, and they should be decrypted fine. I'm not entirely sure what the rules are for this. But yeah, WHS could definitely be a storage device for a different Media Center computer.

Unless they are protected in the same type of method CableCARD and CGMS-A recordings are today. In this case, the DRM can only be decrypted on Media Center Extenders and the PC it was recorded on. Depending on the protection it can also limit storage, but I believe CableCARD can be stored on a WHS without much issue.

Chris

[belogical]

Wow, great news... I guess it was good timing getting my Windows Home Server. This is going to be awesome, been waiting for this for a long time.

FYI, been on Vista Ultimate for awhile. Love it.

[BudShark]

[snip]Can't tell you for sure, but WMDRM is the only DRM method that has ever been used within Media Center.

Chris

What I am looking for is the potential of using this device outside of Media Center - whether its with a 360, Linux, Mac, etc.

The more "full functioning" the device is, the more likely it is to work elsewhere. So if its a H2x series receiver without MPEG decoding, this means the device itself would be capable of frequency tuning, in-line guide presentation, etc. Once we know this, then we can begin to determine what options might be there.

I'd like to know more about the WMDRM management. If thats done via hardware/software within the HDPC20 and whether or not there's the potential for other DRM solutions. I'm guessing "Hollywood" wouldn't sanction anything other than WMDRM at this time - severely limiting the options and making this a Media Center only solution (which I think it could be so much more).

Chris

[VLaslow]

Thanks for the information, Earl. Any chance you could re-digitize the brochure at about 4 times the resolution so we could read it?

It looks like a mock up that is done many times in printing; the pictures are there, but the words are gibberish and to be filled in later.

But I see from the dual tuner doc that I was mistaken. Real words for real fanatics (like us).

[phat78boy]

We've been thinking of the network jack in terms of computers and extenders. How about for use for MRV to other DirecTV boxes like the HR21?

[Thaedron]

Because they have been talking about it all year...
And it is something that is already known to be coming.

CES this year is mostly about things that have only been rumored or vaguely references.

I was hoping for something in the way of a planned release date, but that can probably be inferred from the other capabilities (at least a relative timeframe).

[PennHORN]

I am a recent Macbook convert after being a PC user for years. I have the latest and greatest Intel chip in my laptop. Assuming a Mac solution a la EyeConnect for MediaShare is not created, can I still use my laptop to be my media center. Will I need to get Vista on my machine. Would it then work?

[bakerfall]

We've been thinking of the network jack in terms of computers and extenders. How about for use for MRV to other DirecTV boxes like the HR21?

Possible, but doubtful. Any such integration would have to go through the PC anyway, since it's doing all the work (and would have to tune into said video.) I think it's highly unlikely since MCE would have to change.

[Mykroft]

Yea, but even that doesn't make sense. Just because it needs to to call back doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not it needs to send it out on the wire. It could easily just use the PC's network card.

I dunno, got me, makes no sense.

Actually it's perfectly logical of them to design an ethernet port on this device itself for three reasons.

First of all, you may not have your PC connected to the network and internet. You may not have an ethernet adapter (although, in this day and age, that's highly unlikely) on your host PC. Putting the port on the tuner itself makes it so they can still support VOD and IP callback. Granted, most people who'll end up getting one of these will likely not fall into this category, they probably did it to just cover their bases on possible user setup.

Second of all, DirecTV is very touchy about keeping their data secure across the wire. Sending IP callback and other messages through the host PC and then to the internet seems like it'd be a no brainer, but doing that is less secure than just sending it over the wire on its own dedicated port. As a software engineer, this makes perfect sense to me.

Lastly, I one might think that the PC could just download VOD content on its own, but everything from DirecTV is likely to be encrypted, and the decryption will likely HAVE to be done on this tuner. (Where I'm guessing the access card(s) will be inserted) Again, it's more secure from a content pipeline security point of view to have this also done on the tuner itself so it can be decoded and then sent to the PC. (Where it will likely be re-encrypted with MS-DRM)

[Mykroft]

Mac support?

And honestly, if DirecTV can do this without requiring a brand-new, CableCARD certified PC, why can't the Cable folks do it?

Because the cable folks are crazy psychos.

[phat78boy]

Possible, but doubtful. Any such integration would have to go through the PC anyway, since it's doing all the work (and would have to tune into said video.) I think it's highly unlikely since MCE would have to change.

No, it wouldn't need to go through the PC and thats my exact point. MCE most likely isn't going to open up support for DirecTV boxes. The HDPC20 is, in my mind, like an HR20/21 that is using your PC as its HDD. So in that aspect, to do MRV it would be a lot easier to just have say an H21 talk directly to the HDPC20 which would in turn talk to its HDD(PC) to get the movie or show.

[bakerfall]

No, it wouldn't need to go through the PC and thats my exact point. MCE most likely isn't going to open up support for DirecTV boxes. The HDPC20 is, in my mind, like an HR20/21 that is using your PC as its HDD. So in that aspect, to do MRV it would be a lot easier to just have say an H21 talk directly to the HDPC20 which would in turn talk to its HDD(PC) to get the movie or show.

Unless there is more going on under the hood than advertised, I just don't think that's the case.

[jagowar]

What I am looking for is the potential of using this device outside of Media Center - whether its with a 360, Linux, Mac, etc.

The more "full functioning" the device is, the more likely it is to work elsewhere. So if its a H2x series receiver without MPEG decoding, this means the device itself would be capable of frequency tuning, in-line guide presentation, etc. Once we know this, then we can begin to determine what options might be there.

I'd like to know more about the WMDRM management. If thats done via hardware/software within the HDPC20 and whether or not there's the potential for other DRM solutions. I'm guessing "Hollywood" wouldn't sanction anything other than WMDRM at this time - severely limiting the options and making this a Media Center only solution (which I think it could be so much more).

Chris

I say there is a very small chance it will ever work outside of vista.... sagetv is a possibility but i dont see mac or linux support coming. this is a partnership between directv and microsoft which was developed specifically for vista.

i dont think there will be any hacking of things like silicon dust has managed to do with the hdhomerun.

[Mykroft]

The directv stream is H.264, the 360 currently does not support that codec.. so it will need a upgrade at some point to play it natively on the 360

Just to clarify, all tuners in Vista Media Center decode down to the raw media stream, then VMC re-encodes it using WMV and applies Windows Media DRM to that stream. That's is what is stored on the hard drive in DVR-MS files. When the media is streamed to extenders (including the 360), it's just the DVR-MS file that's WMV encoded being streamed and decoded by the 360.

So, no, the 360 will likely NOT need an update. The only thing that would likely need updating is the PC to include the new drivers to support this tuner in VMC.

[Paznos]

Wow now this is something I would want, can't wait to hear more details about it, would go nice with my 24" monitor.

[mathism]

DirecTV integration with Xbox 360 was announced at CES 2006, but no details were released since then. I guess this is the first clue, it'll still be interesting to see how it works on the Xbox side of things.

Maybe the box will be taking the signals from the tuner and converting them to the IPTV format that Microsoft should already have software support for?

[ToddD]

Just to clarify, all tuners in Vista Media Center decode down to the raw media stream, then VMC re-encodes it using WMV and applies Windows Media DRM to that stream. That's is what is stored on the hard drive in DVR-MS files. When the media is streamed to extenders (including the 360), it's just the DVR-MS file that's WMV encoded being streamed and decoded by the 360.

So, no, the 360 will likely NOT need an update. The only thing that would likely need updating is the PC to include the new drivers to support this tuner in VMC.

almost correct....DVR-MS files are MPEG2 not WMV (although it is true that they could contain other formats)

[bakerfall]

DirecTV integration with Xbox 360 was announced at CES 2006, but no details were released since then. I guess this is the first clue, it'll still be interesting to see how it works on the Xbox side of things.

Maybe the box will be taking the signals from the tuner and converting them to the IPTV format that Microsoft should already have software support for?

:beatdeadhorse: The 360 functionality is strictly as a media center extender.

[Mykroft]

No, it wouldn't need to go through the PC and thats my exact point. MCE most likely isn't going to open up support for DirecTV boxes. The HDPC20 is, in my mind, like an HR20/21 that is using your PC as its HDD. So in that aspect, to do MRV it would be a lot easier to just have say an H21 talk directly to the HDPC20 which would in turn talk to its HDD(PC) to get the movie or show.

Support for DirecTV was baked into Vista early on in the design in Vista. Essentially the same support they added for CableCard tuners was also intended to work with DirecTV.

While you could think of this tuner as a small version of an HR20/21, I don't think you can assume it just "uses" the computer's hard drive for storage. There's a complex process of decoding the source signal (HDPC-20), re-encoding the raw signal as MPEG2 (Windows) and applying DRM (Windows).

Based on my experience with OTA and CAbleCard tuners in VMC, this tuner is essentially just a tuner, it's job is to decode the proprietary DirecTV signal so it can be consumed by VMC. Once it does that, it'll all be in the hands of VMC as it works now.

[ChrisL01]

Just to clarify, all tuners in Vista Media Center decode down to the raw media stream, then VMC re-encodes it using WMV and applies Windows Media DRM to that stream. That's is what is stored on the hard drive in DVR-MS files. When the media is streamed to extenders (including the 360), it's just the DVR-MS file that's WMV encoded being streamed and decoded by the 360.

So, no, the 360 will likely NOT need an update. The only thing that would likely need updating is the PC to include the new drivers to support this tuner in VMC.

I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely wrong.

Microsoft requires NTSC/Analog tuners to have hardware MPEG-2 encoders. The MPEG-2 is not touched, rather just up into an DVR-MS wrapper. It is not transocded to WMV or any other format.

ATSC tuners take the digital broadcast and drop it untouched into the DVR-MS wrapper.

CableCARD tuners take the MPEG-2 w/ copy protection and remove the protection then reapply a new protection (WMDRM).

No tuners in Media Center re-encode/transcode anything to WMV. DVR-MS is not WMV. It is a simple wrapper. WMDRM can be applied in DVR-MS without the video being WMV (which is good, because there is no tuner that put WMV in DVR-MS).

Please, please don't think that anything is transcoded. Please let me know where you read this information so it can be fixed.

Chris

[Capmeister]

I. Must. Have. One.

Just sayin'.

[ChrisL01]

Support for DirecTV was baked into Vista early on in the design in Vista. Essentially the same support they added for CableCard tuners was also intended to work with DirecTV.

While you could think of this tuner as a small version of an HR20/21, I don't think you can assume it just "uses" the computer's hard drive for storage. There's a complex process of decoding the source signal (HDPC-20), re-encoding the raw signal as WMV (Windows) and applying DRM (Windows).

Based on my experience with OTA and CAbleCard tuners in VMC, this tuner is essentially just a tuner, it's job is to decode the proprietary DirecTV signal so it can be consumed by VMC. Once it does that, it'll all be in the hands of VMC as it works now.

This is also incorrect and misleading. Vista added several content protection technologies that D* support is likely to use, but CableCARD and D* are entirely different and require much more behind the scenes then you appear to understand. There will be a big software update to allow the D* tuners to work.

And again, nothing is en-encoded to WMV!

Chris

[Mykroft]

almost correct....DVR-MS files are MPEG2 not WMV (although it is true that they could contain other formats)

Oops, sorry, yes, that's what I meant. Point being it's not the raw DirecTV signal.

[aenea]

..

[Mykroft]

I don't know where you heard this, but it is completely wrong.

Microsoft requires NTSC/Analog tuners to have hardware MPEG-2 encoders. The MPEG-2 is not touched, rather just up into an DVR-MS wrapper. It is not transocded to WMV or any other format.

ATSC tuners take the digital broadcast and drop it untouched into the DVR-MS wrapper.

CableCARD tuners take the MPEG-2 w/ copy protection and remove the protection then reapply a new protection (WMDRM).

No tuners in Media Center re-encode/transcode anything to WMV. DVR-MS is not WMV. It is a simple wrapper. WMDRM can be applied in DVR-MS without the video being WMV (which is good, because there is no tuner that put WMV in DVR-MS).

Please, please don't think that anything is transcoded. Please let me know where you read this information so it can be fixed.

Chris

I already stated in another post that I mean to say that it's stored in the DVR-MS as MPEG2 instead of WMV... that was just me thinking of the two as the same thing, which they're obviously not. I edited my original post, sorry for the confusion.

And actually, I'm almost 100% sure I'm correct here. I may not have chosen the best words, so sorry for that. I said that tuners decode to the raw stream... that's what I meant by MPEG2. They have to decode it from the wire format, decrypt it, whatever. (Which is my way of saying removing protection)

Then it has to be stored into a DVR-MS file ... whether or not that signal is changed isn't the point ... my point is that it's stored in a file of a specific format, which is DVR-MS. It may just be a wrapper on the MPEG2 data, but from a developers point of view (which is what I am), that's a change in format, albeit a small one. No, it's not transcoding the entire signal.

[Mykroft]

This is also incorrect and misleading. Vista added several content protection technologies that D* support is likely to use, but CableCARD and D* are entirely different and require much more behind the scenes then you appear to understand. There will be a big software update to allow the D* tuners to work.

And again, nothing is en-encoded to WMV!

Chris

I never said they were the same! Where did I say that? Obviously they're different, my point was that core technologies were added to VMC before it was ever released so that they could integrate both CableCard and DirecTV tuners into their VMC/DRM scheme without "major" updates.

[RoundRockJohn]

This a very compelling product, and I'd have to seriously consider it. I think the key factor is going to be how much and how good are the media extenders are going to behave with this unit.

All in all, I think the only people happier than the forum posters are about this thing are the people who sell them hard drives.

[Chop69]

Hey guys,

ChrisL01 is a moderator (owner?) of www.thegreenbutton.com (http://www.thegreenbutton.com), which is pretty much the DBSTalk of Windows Media Center.

You can view anything he says as Gospel; as much as anything Earl says over here.

[ChrisL01]

I already stated in another post that I mean to say that it's stored in the DVR-MS as MPEG2 instead of WMV... that was just me thinking of the two as the same thing, which they're obviously not. I edited my original post, sorry for the confusion.

Sadly again, it still isn't right if you look at the most advanced TV capture. CableCARD content is not encoded at all, either is ATSC. I wouldn't expect D* to be re-encoded just because it is H.264.

The only time content is re-encoded is when it is captured using an analog tuner that has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.

I never said they were the same! Where did I say that? Obviously they're different, my point was that core technologies were added to VMC before it was ever released so that they could integrate both CableCard and DirecTV tuners into their VMC/DRM scheme without "major" updates.

And my point is the opposite. If you were just talking about DRM, that's basically right. However, D* tuners can't be integrated using what is there in Vista now.

Chris

[Yogi76]

All in all, I think the only people happier than the forum posters are about this thing are the people who sell them hard drives.

One of the good things about this is that the DVR-MS files produced by this will almost certainly be H.264 files, which will be quite a bit smaller than the current MPEG-2 files I'm recording from my HDHomerun. So, I'll actually be able to get a lot more TV on my 600GB drive dedicated for recording TV on my Vista Media Center box.

Yogi

[phat78boy]

Support for DirecTV was baked into Vista early on in the design in Vista. Essentially the same support they added for CableCard tuners was also intended to work with DirecTV.

While you could think of this tuner as a small version of an HR20/21, I don't think you can assume it just "uses" the computer's hard drive for storage. There's a complex process of decoding the source signal (HDPC-20), re-encoding the raw signal as MPEG2 (Windows) and applying DRM (Windows).

Based on my experience with OTA and CAbleCard tuners in VMC, this tuner is essentially just a tuner, it's job is to decode the proprietary DirecTV signal so it can be consumed by VMC. Once it does that, it'll all be in the hands of VMC as it works now.

Yes, support for DirecTV was built in. Not support for MRV to DirecTV boxes. My point was not to minimize what the HDPC20 will do, but only to show how it would be seen by the client MRV boxes. To me this would not only make a lot of sense but enable to DirecTV to sell client boxes, if you will, instead of telling everyone to get media center extenders

[ToddD]

Sadly again, it still isn't right if you look at the most advanced TV capture. CableCARD content is not encoded at all, either is ATSC. I wouldn't expect D* to be re-encoded just because it is H.264.

The only time content is re-encoded is when it is captured using an analog tuner that has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.



And my point is the opposite. If you were just talking about DRM, that's basically right. However, D* tuners can't be integrated using what is there in Vista now.

Chris

So If I understand you Chris, you think that the DirecTv stream will be kept in the H.264 format and wrapped with DRM and XML to create a DVR-MS?

This would require an update to just about every element of VMC and to extenders as there is not support for H.264 (as we all know by reading your posting about this several times)
It seems more likely that they would choose to re-encode as some format that MC ALREADY supports like MPEG2

[Mykroft]

Sadly again, it still isn't right if you look at the most advanced TV capture. CableCARD content is not encoded at all, either is ATSC. I wouldn't expect D* to be re-encoded just because it is H.264.

Chris

If it's not encoded then it would be cake to rip off the wire. (In other words, Analog) If it's digital, it's encoded somehow.

I think what you're misunderstanding me saying "encoded" to mean that transcoding is going on, which is not what I mean. When I say a tuner is decoding the signal, I mean just that. Taking the wire format, which is digital and spitting that out in some format the PC can read, which is an MPEG2 stream, or whatever it is.

[phat78boy]

It's going to integrate with MCE.

Ok, maybe I'm giving this device too much credit. I know it says Vista on the paperwork, but to me that is just a start. Lets say they offer this device as not only a tuner for MCE, but almost like a server for your house.

What I mean is you could set it up to record all the shows you want to a seperate eSata HDD that connects to the second USB port. That way your shows can be retreived without worrying about if you have MCE configured correctly or if your computer is in use or turned off.

Going through MCE for MRV to DirecTV boxes seems like asking a customer to do a lot of setup to me.

[mjones73]

Yes, support for DirecTV was built in. Not support for MRV to DirecTV boxes. My point was not to minimize what the HDPC20 will do, but only to show how it would be seen by the client MRV boxes. To me this would not only make a lot of sense but enable to DirecTV to sell client boxes, if you will, instead of telling everyone to get media center extenders

I highly doubt it's going to have the ability to be directly networked for MRV use to Directv boxes, most likely it's only going to be a tuner for direct integration into MCE.

If you read the posted specs, the ethernet port isn't even listed, it's possible the picture is an early prototype and the finished product might not even have a port. It also states to use it you need to hook it up to a PC and fire up MCE to watch TV.

Speculation never hurts but I think you are giving it too much credit. We'll just have to wait and see what happens when dbstalk finally gets one in their hands to test. :)

[CaMS]

So If I understand you Chris, you think that the DirecTv stream will be kept in the H.264 format and wrapped with DRM and XML to create a DVR-MS?

This would require an update to just about every element of VMC and to extenders as there is not support for H.264 (as we all know by reading your posting about this several times)
It seems more likely that they would choose to re-encode as some format that MC ALREADY supports like MPEG2

Yes that what it looks like, the stream will be untouched.. and Fiji is the update that will make this happen.. it will be a major update with alot of new things added

[spartanstew]

OK, so I just heard a commercial on the radio and had to ask this question:

Would using something like gotomypc* allow you to use this like a slingbox? Or does Vista prevent that?



*I've never used gotomypc, so don't know of its limitations.

[aenea]

Set it up how, using who's interface, outputing to what, using who's encryption, tagging with what metadata, and using what to control access?

I think it's unlikely in the exterme that this is going to write out unencrypted files to anything, and a disk full of encrypted recordings isn't going to do anyone any good without an ecosystem to decrypt and play them back. This is the PC tuner that was talked about by Bill years ago, for Vista's media center. Directv already has a standalone device that records programs whether or not your computer is in use or turned off, and is rumoured to be workin on mrv for it.

Ok, maybe I'm giving this device too much credit. I know it says Vista on the paperwork, but to me that is just a start. Lets say they offer this device as not only a tuner for MCE, but almost like a server for your house.

What I mean is you could set it up to record all the shows you want to a seperate eSata HDD that connects to the second USB port. That way your shows can be retreived without worrying about if you have MCE configured correctly or if your computer is in use or turned off.

Going through MCE for MRV to DirecTV boxes seems like asking a customer to do a lot of setup to me.

[phat78boy]

OK, so I just heard a commercial on the radio and had to ask this question:

Would using something like gotomypc* allow you to use this like a slingbox? Or does Vista prevent that?



*I've never used gotomypc, so don't know of its limitations.

Kind of. The refresh rate would make live video on your home machine look like changing pictures. Don't think it would be very effective. Now if you have a high speed connection and a VPN, you could remote your desktop and probably get a better result.

[ToddD]

Yes that what it looks like, the stream will be untouched.. and Fiji is the update that will make this happen.. it will be a major update with alot of new things added

here's something that might be interesting...Some poster on one of the many forums that I read said that a DirecTv person told him at the show that this will ship this quarter. (I'm looking for the post to provide a link) If so, no update to Fuji would re required as of course it's not yet available.

[phat78boy]

Set it up how, using who's interface, outputing to what, using who's encryption, tagging with what metadata, and using what to control access?

I think it's unlikely in the exterme that this is going to write out unencrypted files to anything, and a disk full of encrypted recordings isn't going to do anyone any good without an ecosystem to decrypt and play them back. This is the PC tuner that was talked about by Bill years ago, for Vista's media center. Directv already has a standalone device that records programs whether or not your computer is in use or turned off, and is rumoured to be workin on mrv for it.

Using MCE you can setup the recordings and also view on your PC. My thought is for purely using this "standalone" once recordings are "on it". This could be done if storage was able to be added directly to the device.

[sportsunit]

You can instantly sign me up for two of these tuner boxes. This Directv Media Center integration will allow me to complete what I consider to be the perfect entertainment setup in my house. I just hope it's not the monumental failure that cablecard is in terms of having to get new pc's just to use it. The cable industry just doesn't get "it." Also, in-band guide data is absolutely necessary as well. The standard Media Center guide for Directv stinks.

[Mykroft]

here's something that might be interesting...Some poster on one of the many forums that I read said that a DirecTv person told him at the show that this will ship this quarter. (I'm looking for the post to provide a link) If so, no update to Fuji would re required as of course it's not yet available.

It's just part speculation and part my understanding of how VMC was designed, but I don't think Fiji will be required to make this tuner happen.

However, I could be wrong, and hopefully we'll find out more tomorrow as DirecTV is supposedly making an announcement about it.

[Yogi76]

Kind of. The refresh rate would make live video on your home machine look like changing pictures. Don't think it would be very effective. Now if you have a high speed connection and a VPN, you could remote your desktop and probably get a better result.

The builtin Remote Desktop application doesn't allow you to view the video over the connection. While you could probably do it in theory using another remote application like VNC, it would probably be so slow as to be unusable. Media Center Extenders basically use Remote Desktop for the interface and then stream the data for the video separately (not sure of the exact details; Chris could probably explain better) and they are on a LAN connection.

Alternatively, there are applications that allow streaming, such as Orb or WebGuide. However, these applications use transcoding which won't be able to be done if the recordings are wrapped in restrictive DRM. Hopefully DirecTV sees all the limitations DRM imposes on legal fair use scenarios and doesn't require it.

Yogi

[bakerfall]

OK, so I just heard a commercial on the radio and had to ask this question:

Would using something like gotomypc* allow you to use this like a slingbox? Or does Vista prevent that?



*I've never used gotomypc, so don't know of its limitations.

http://www.asciiexpress.com/webguide/

[ToddD]

It's just part speculation and part my understanding of how VMC was designed, but I don't think Fiji will be required to make this tuner happen.

However, I could be wrong, and hopefully we'll find out more tomorrow as DirecTV is supposedly making an announcement about it.

Ok I found where I had seen the shipping this quarter...It's in Chris's blog from TGB

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/01/07/233530.aspx

read the comments at the bottom....and if this source is correct the press announcement from Microsoft will be today at 4:00PST

[BudShark]

My hope continues to be that this is a tuner, with no MPEG decoding. Basically that it is a full functioning dual-tuner solution, with a full functioning remote, and the ability to embed the giude data/stream into the output.

At that point you have an H2x dual tuner solution - with no video output. Just digital retransmission of the MPEG streams. For the current use they are wrapped in WMDRM for output - but here's hoping the output can be managed in the future in ways that would open up the compatbility.

Chris

[bakerfall]

Ok, maybe I'm giving this device too much credit. I know it says Vista on the paperwork, but to me that is just a start. Lets say they offer this device as not only a tuner for MCE, but almost like a server for your house.

What I mean is you could set it up to record all the shows you want to a seperate eSata HDD that connects to the second USB port. That way your shows can be retreived without worrying about if you have MCE configured correctly or if your computer is in use or turned off.

Going through MCE for MRV to DirecTV boxes seems like asking a customer to do a lot of setup to me.

I think the point is that there likely will be no MRV between MCE and HR-2X. They are two totally different things.

This box is doing nothing except acting as a tuner. There are OTA tuners, cable tuners and this is a sat tuner. It has no brains, it has not guide, nothing. It can't record, it can't playback. It is simply a tuner. MCE is doing all the work in this equation (guide, recording, playback, channel changing).

If all you want is a box with eSata capabilities and MRV (soon), then the HR series is what you want. If you want to use MCE instead of the HR series, then you want the HDPC.

[digitalfreak]

Hey guys,

ChrisL01 is a moderator (owner?) of www.thegreenbutton.com (http://www.thegreenbutton.com), which is pretty much the DBSTalk of Windows Media Center.

You can view anything he says as Gospel; as much as anything Earl says over here.

At least when it comes to Media Center... :D

Seriously, Chris knows what he's talking about, so I wouldn't argue with him on this stuff.

[bakerfall]

My hope continues to be that this is a tuner, with no MPEG decoding. Basically that it is a full functioning dual-tuner solution, with a full functioning remote, and the ability to embed the giude data/stream into the output.

At that point you have an H2x dual tuner solution - with no video output. Just digital retransmission of the MPEG streams. For the current use they are wrapped in WMDRM for output - but here's hoping the output can be managed in the future in ways that would open up the compatbility.

Chris

I believe that all MCE tuners do their own decoding, which is really what you want ( you don't want your PC doing all the work, that would suck up a lot of resources.) Guide data comes from the web, not from the tuner.

Functionally there is no reason to believe that this is going to do anything that existing OTA/cable tuners don't do, except work with D*.

[BudShark]

And thanks Chris for spreading some of TGB knowledge over here... there will be a lot of renewed interest in Media Center from this crowd when the device launches!

Chris

[digitalfreak]

Ok I found where I had seen the shipping this quarter...It's in Chris's blog from TGB

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/01/07/233530.aspx

read the comments at the bottom....and if this source is correct the press announcement from Microsoft will be today at 4:00PST

*crosses fingers*

[phat78boy]

The builtin Remote Desktop application doesn't allow you to view the video over the connection. While you could probably do it in theory using another remote application like VNC, it would probably be so slow as to be unusable. Media Center Extenders basically use Remote Desktop for the interface and then stream the data for the video separately (not sure of the exact details; Chris could probably explain better) and they are on a LAN connection.

Alternatively, there are applications that allow streaming, such as Orb or WebGuide. However, these applications use transcoding which won't be able to be done if the recordings are wrapped in restrictive DRM. Hopefully DirecTV sees all the limitations DRM imposes on legal fair use scenarios and doesn't require it.

Yogi

If you use remote desktop and play a video file on that machine, it works just fine. Not sure what you mean.

[bakerfall]

RDP won't allow Media Center, it will allow video. MCE errors out.

[dklippi]

That's big news. I didn't realize sp1 was already downloadable I may try to load it tonight.

SP1 that is downloadable now also expires. Wait for the real deal unless you have a need to test unfinished software.

[ulbonado]

So for all those who miss the Tivo/DirecTV combination, is there any reason this couldn't provide a solution? I understand Tivo would have to come to some legal arrangement with DirecTV for access to technical specs &c, but it certainly sounds like an appropriate update to Tivo's software could even allow the existing Series 3 and Tivo HD boxes to support this device. They already have USB ports. Assuming the politics/legalisms work out.

[ulbonado]

Of course what would really be cool is if the specs were open and it could be made to work with Linux & MythTV, but I suppose the Rights Managers of the world aren't going to allow that to happen. Officially at least.

[ShapeGSX]

So for all those who miss the Tivo/DirecTV combination, is there any reason this couldn't provide a solution? I understand Tivo would have to come to some legal arrangement with DirecTV for access to technical specs &c, but it certainly sounds like an appropriate update to Tivo's software could even allow the existing Series 3 and Tivo HD boxes to support this device. They already have USB ports. Assuming the politics/legalisms work out.

No, Tivos don't work with MPEG4, as far as I know.

[ToddD]

At least when it comes to Media Center... :D

Seriously, Chris knows what he's talking about, so I wouldn't argue with him on this stuff.

Yes except that like all of us ...Yes that includes me ....sometimes he's wrong.

[Yogi76]

If you use remote desktop and play a video file on that machine, it works just fine. Not sure what you mean.

Windows Media Center works fine in Remote Desktop until you attempt to play video.

Yogi

[dklippi]

One of the good things about this is that the DVR-MS files produced by this will almost certainly be H.264 files, which will be quite a bit smaller than the current MPEG-2 files I'm recording from my HDHomerun. So, I'll actually be able to get a lot more TV on my 600GB drive dedicated for recording TV on my Vista Media Center box.

Yogi

Instead of single large drives, you might consider 3 drives in RAID 5. If you bang on this thing enough any single drive will eventually fail. RAID 5 will survive a single drive failure.

[dklippi]

Kind of. The refresh rate would make live video on your home machine look like changing pictures. Don't think it would be very effective. Now if you have a high speed connection and a VPN, you could remote your desktop and probably get a better result.

No need for VPN, but you will need a static IP address. Just open up 3389/TCP on your firewall. Be sure the administrator account is either disabled or you have renamed it, though. There is hacker software out there that will bang a dictionary attack on your administrator account.

[bakerfall]

Windows Media Center works fine in Remote Desktop until you attempt to play video.

Yogi

That's pretty much my point, thanks for the screenshot. :)

[Yogi76]

Instead of single large drives, you might consider 3 drives in RAID 5. If you bang on this thing enough any single drive will eventually fail. RAID 5 will survive a single drive failure.

It's only my recorded TV, not my irreplaceable family photos or work documents. I can't justify the added cost of a RAID 5 array for recorded TV. My TV drive is actually two drives in RAID Concatenation, making it even more susceptible to failure since if one drive goes, I lose everything. But, there's always reruns. :)

Yogi

[Yogi76]

That's pretty much my point, thanks for the screenshot. :)

I think you got your "won't" and "will" backwards in your original post. :) You probably meant to say:

"RDP will allow Media Center, it won't allow video. MCE errors out."

If we could just RDP in and do video fine, people wouldn't still be clamoring for the legendary "Softsled" software.

Yogi

[jagowar]

Instead of single large drives, you might consider 3 drives in RAID 5. If you bang on this thing enough any single drive will eventually fail. RAID 5 will survive a single drive failure.

i know its not ready yet but my ultimate hope is we get an esata or ethernet drobo for this kind of thing.... it would be awesome to be able to "upgrade" my raid array as needed.

[ulbonado]

No, Tivos don't work with MPEG4, as far as I know.

There was a recent announcement that I saw somewhere that Motorola was introducing an MPEG4 cable box, and there was accompanying talk of cable companies switching to MPEG4 as DirecTV has done. It raised the obvious question of whether that would obsolete the current HD cable Tivos. Someone (I know, reliable source, eh? Sorry, I can't remember...) on tivocommunity.com I believe was saying that the current HD cable Tivos use a chip that actually supports MPEG4 already, they're just not currently enabling that feature (no need for it, so far). So a software update might theoretically deal with that issue as well.

[ChrisL01]

So If I understand you Chris, you think that the DirecTv stream will be kept in the H.264 format and wrapped with DRM and XML to create a DVR-MS?

That would basically be my guess. It would require that Stream Buffer Engine (SBE) be updated. This would keep the H.264 video, put it in a DVR-MS wrapper which would then allow copy protection and metadata.


This would require an update to just about every element of VMC and to extenders as there is not support for H.264 (as we all know by reading your posting about this several times)

All current v2 Extenders (Linksys, D-Link, HP) already support H.264. The main thing that doesn't is the Xbox 360 Extender which of course Microsoft controls.


It seems more likely that they would choose to re-encode as some format that MC ALREADY supports like MPEG2

The problem with this is the hardware requirements shoot up amazing (either software or hardware). The world is moving away from MPEG-2, and to MPEG-4 AVC. An update to SBE is also needed overseas where MPEG-2 is no longer the traditional broadcast format.

If it's not encoded then it would be cake to rip off the wire. (In other words, Analog) If it's digital, it's encoded somehow.

I think what you're misunderstanding me saying "encoded" to mean that transcoding is going on, which is not what I mean. When I say a tuner is decoding the signal, I mean just that. Taking the wire format, which is digital and spitting that out in some format the PC can read, which is an MPEG2 stream, or whatever it is.

Your wording was "re-encoded", not encoded or decode. I see that you fixed that and now have a better idea. Re-encode means transcode, so that's a huge difference. :)

The builtin Remote Desktop application doesn't allow you to view the video over the connection. While you could probably do it in theory using another remote application like VNC, it would probably be so slow as to be unusable. Media Center Extenders basically use Remote Desktop for the interface and then stream the data for the video separately (not sure of the exact details; Chris could probably explain better) and they are on a LAN connection.

Yogi

v1 Extenders (which don't work in Vista) basically did this. However the Xbox 360 and new v2 Extenders have a much richer UI. I don't know what protocols are used for everything now, but it is a bit more than RDP. Video has always been streamed over a separate protocol though (and still is).

I believe that all MCE tuners do their own decoding, which is really what you want ( you don't want your PC doing all the work, that would suck up a lot of resources.) Guide data comes from the web, not from the tuner.

Decoding of video is done by the PC (generally with video card assist). The tuners don't do any decoding. If a Media Center Extender is used, decoding is done locally by either software or hardware in that device.

Also, the D* tuner is likely use in-band (sat) EPG data instead of the Internet delivered one from Zap2It.

Yes except that like all of us ...Yes that includes me ....sometimes he's wrong.

I'm by far not right all the time, but the main thing I'm trying to do here is give non-Media Center users a better idea of how things work now. The only things I'd take for sure out of this is what is listed in those scans.

Chris

[bnash972]

What's the Ethernet port for on the back? "Future use"?

Could this be used as a network device and accessed from multiple PCs in the home?

[BTDT]

As a former DirecTV customer who moved to FiOS a couple of years back I will just post my intention to move back to D* when this becomes available.

It looks like we are pretty sure that this thing will *not* require an OEM PC (the CableCard solution doesn't need to do their either to do DRM, but it does). In that case I may move forward with building my own VMC and get started with OTA and S-Video transferred cable recordings for now, and then upgrade to the D* solution later. A two phase process would make it an easier transition in terms of WAF....

Very exciting! I joined this forum as soon as I saw this come up on TGB.

[mjones73]

Could this be used as a network device and accessed from multiple PCs in the home?

Been discussed already in the thread, most likely no.

[Yogi76]

Been discussed already in the thread, most likely no.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion so quickly. Remember, the original test versions of the OCUR had network tuner access (http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2662&p=2). In fact, the final ATI Digital Cable Tuners show up as network devices, even when connected using USB, I'm pretty sure (can someone with CableCard MCE setup confirm this?) Unless DirecTV removes the Ethernet port, my bet is that is exactly what it will be used for.

Yogi

[dloftis]

Anybody else find it odd that the photos show BNC connectors rather than F?

[rherrmann]

Look like F-connectors to me.

RIck

[greynolds]

Decoding of video is done by the PC (generally with video card assist). The tuners don't do any decoding. If a Media Center Extender is used, decoding is done locally by either software or hardware in that device.

I was thinking that he meant that ~encoding~ is done by the tuner (for recording analog content) - and unless I'm mistaken WMC only supports analog tuners that have hardware encoding (wasn't there was an exception to this for the ATI HDTV Wonder?). In the case of digital content (HD OTA, Digital Cable, DTV, etc.), no encoding is needed (obviously).

[VeniceDre]

This would work great for me since I spend so much time on my computer in my home office. Plus the fact that I've got two more tuner feeds available on my SWM-5 that feeds this side of my house the FTM will come in handy. Can't wait to get my hands on one.

[sorahl]

My guess is only one, but can you imagine having two or three of these on one PC? That's 4-6 video streams! LOL! :eek2:

How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.

John

[sorahl]

There is a lot of incorrect information about how Media Center works in this thread.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how video is captured for Media Center. Using CableCARD as an example, the signal goes directly into the OCUR (CableCARD Rec.) and the OpenCable Copy Protection is removed. Before it leaves the OCUR it is wrapped in WMDRM. The content is still MPEG-2, the video doesn't get transcoded to WMV or any other format.

Chris Lanier

Glad someone else understands this too.
I did someone make a comment earlier that they wanted to hook it up to a WHS. I don't know that this will work. It certainly could if they wanted it to, and it would save me a LOT of additional cabling. I'd love to put this with my planned WHS machine in my closet where my satellite wires are split out from.

john

[phat78boy]

No need for VPN, but you will need a static IP address. Just open up 3389/TCP on your firewall. Be sure the administrator account is either disabled or you have renamed it, though. There is hacker software out there that will bang a dictionary attack on your administrator account.

Why I suggested VPN.

[ToddD]

That would basically be my guess. It would require that Stream Buffer Engine (SBE) be updated. This would keep the H.264 video, put it in a DVR-MS wrapper which would then allow copy protection and metadata.

Except if you'll take a minute to look at how DirecTv builds their receivers, you'll see that the output from the ASIC they use is a MPEG2 TS stream not Mpeg4



The problem with this is the hardware requirements shoot up amazing (either software or hardware). The world is moving away from MPEG-2, and to MPEG-4 AVC. An update to SBE is also needed overseas where MPEG-2 is no longer the traditional broadcast format.

I strongly disagree that the world is moving away from MPEG2....seen much talk about ATSC or what we here call OTA of late- it's MPEG2 by law. Media Center is doing MPEG2 HD just fine right now thank you -on todays hardware. As to the topic we are discussing here....As I noted above the output from DirecTV's ASIC of choice IS MPEG2



There just is no reason to have to reinvent the wheel here....MC supports MPEG2 HD today (ATSC and CABLECARD), so do extenders, so does the silicon that DirecTv uses to build receivers.

[phat78boy]

Windows Media Center works fine in Remote Desktop until you attempt to play video.

Yogi

You are correct. Sorry. I use Dameware to remote my machines using RDP security and figured it would be the same. I know they remote using different drivers and didn't realize Microsoft had turned off that feature when using their remote client.

[BudShark]

How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.

John

You mean to tell me Joe User doesn't have a gig switch with the PC hardwired, Cat6 cabled to each RG6 location, and a wireless segment? :lol:

Chris

[ToddD]

How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.

John

You know that is not as hard as you might think.....If we took the MPEG2 stream of 4 Full HD TV stations they would all fit in less than 100Mb's
As Wireless N can do up to 300Mb's and Gigabit might have a thruput of around 400Mb's....it not too hard any more or too expensive.

[ChrisL01]

Except if you'll take a minute to look at how DirecTv builds their receivers, you'll see that the output from the ASIC they use is a MPEG2 TS stream not Mpeg4

I'm just saying how I would do it. This isn't a D* STB.


I strongly disagree that the world is moving away from MPEG2....seen much talk about ATSC or what we here call OTA of late- it's MPEG2 by law. Media Center is doing MPEG2 HD just fine right now thank you -on todays hardware. As to the topic we are discussing here....As I noted above the output from DirecTV's ASIC of choice IS MPEG2

MPEG-2 by regulation (no law)...in the US. As I said overseas in the UK and other places MPEG-4 is where it is at.

The MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 comment was about transcoding. Feel free to try on-the-fly software encoding from 1080i MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 on your PC and then tell me your hardware does it just fine. :)

Chris

[phat78boy]

You know that is not as hard as you might think.....If we took the MPEG2 stream of 4 Full HD TV stations they would all fit in less than 100Mb's
As Wireless N can do up to 300Mb's and Gigabit might have a thruput of around 400Mb's....it not too hard any more or too expensive.

If the network is doing only that. Add in music streaming and the music downloading the kids are doing and people will start complaining as they have no idea whats going on.

[CCDMan]

Yeah Right. And does anyone remember the DirecTV Home Media Center from CES 2005 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Jan_6/ai_n8684410)? D* made a big splash about that and all the great things it would do and that it would be out by the end of the year.

Never heard about it again.

Would be nice but I will wait and see if this is another example of hype with no real content.

[jeffbarnett513]

Another guy here that is stoked his media center dream setup is coming to fruition.

Re: network bandwidth for multiple tuners. Nick at the Silicon Dust Forums (HD Homerun manufacturer) says that a 1080i stream consumes about 16 Mbps. FYI

[ToddD]

I'm just saying how I would do it. This isn't a D* STB.

Yes it is....

MPEG-2 by regulation (no law)...in the US. As I said overseas in the UK and other places MPEG-4 is where it is at.
In the us FCC regs have the force of law

The MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 comment was about transcoding. Feel free to try on-the-fly software encoding from 1080i MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 on your PC and then tell me your hardware does it just fine. :)




OK, I'm done with this ....you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine...One of us will be right and one of us will be wrong...so be it. No point in continuing to take everyone time on hearing our opinions...the answer will be clear at some point and it will be what it will be.

[ChrisL01]

This isn't a race Todd. There is no need for a winner and a loser and there is no need to argue or get upset. I'm sorry that's happened.

Chris

[smiddy]

I will have one of these on my HTPC...soon! I really can't wait. Seriously this is really good stuff right here.

[digitalfreak]

How many people out there besides myself have a home network tha tcould handled 6 streams without any network degredation??
I don't care but I'd be interested to see the bandwidth needed if you have multiple streams running, specially for those poor souls on wireless.

John

*raises hand*

[openhelix]

RDP won't allow Media Center, it will allow video. MCE errors out.

Hmm I just tried it and it worked fine. The only caveat is you have to RDP to the Vista box with the console option.

[phat78boy]

Hmm I just tried it and it worked fine. The only caveat is you have to RDP to the Vista box with the console option.

Thanks for the feedback. I was going to try when I got home but thought I had used RDP before.

[P Smith]

Except if you'll take a minute to look at how DirecTv builds their receivers, you'll see that the output from the ASIC they use is a MPEG2 TS stream not Mpeg4.
<...>

Todd, you're half right - newest D* receiver/DVRs have both types video compression in TS depending of SCID - most of all from 103W sat are MPEG-4[H.264].

[openhelix]

Thanks for the feedback. I was going to try when I got home but thought I had used RDP before.
FWIW, I was using the 6.1 TS client (Vista client) not the older XP RDP/TS client. Not sure if that makes a difference with the enhanced RDP security.

[mva5580]

I'd like to see Microsoft comment on this device as well at the CES, you'd think they would have something to say about it considering it will obviously work hand in hand with Media Center.

Release date and price.......Need information.......Please...........

[digitalfreak]

I'd like to see Microsoft comment on this device as well at the CES, you'd think they would have something to say about it considering it will obviously work hand in hand with Media Center.

Release date and price.......Need information.......Please...........

Supposedly a press conference at 4pm PT today. May be some of the info you're looking for there.

[mva5580]

Supposedly a press conference at 4pm PT today. May be some of the info you're looking for there.

Oh lord. Someone use the Jedi Mind Trick and force the information out of them. Thanks for the info :)

[phat78boy]

FWIW, I was using the 6.1 TS client (Vista client) not the older XP RDP/TS client. Not sure if that makes a difference with the enhanced RDP security.

Thats what I use also. I only have one XP machine left around the house. Also, the other poster looked to be using MCE 2005. I have been using Vista MCE.

[ToddD]

Todd, you're half right - newest D* receiver/DVRs have both types video compression in TS depending of SCID - most of all from 103W sat are MPEG-4[H.264].


I wasn't taking about what comes off the Sat..I was talking about deep within the silicon. See Here: http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/4501-PB01-R.pdf

Quote: "The final error-corrected output is delivered in MPEG-2 transport format"

[mva5580]

At this point, the main thing I want to hear is absolute confirmation from MS/D* that this product will NOT be for OEM PC's only.

Yes, from the looks of it, it certainly appears that it will be available to everyone. But I need some concrete, definite confirmation from the companies themselves.

[Yogi76]

FWIW, I was using the 6.1 TS client (Vista client) not the older XP RDP/TS client. Not sure if that makes a difference with the enhanced RDP security.

I just tried it again, using the /console switch, but I still got the same error. Windows Vista on both sides. Were you actually able to get video to play, or just launch Media Center?

Yogi

[Pinion413]

That looks absolutely delicious. Thanks for the images and info Earl.

I will own one of those. :D

[Shunopoli]

what happened to the press conferences