DirecTV service unable to fix my problem

[mcd4959]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I have received many great tips on this forum, and hope someone can help with this oddity.

I currently have 2 receivers: HR20-700 in my living room - works fine save the occasional pixellation on some HD channels (ESPN in particular); the second receiver was an HR20-100 in my basement. This was working fine, but now not at all.

I had to disconnect the basement receiver for about a month while having work done (nothing was done in the room the receiver was in, but I disconnected my system to cover it from dust). When I reconnected, I was not able to get past the setup screens.

Called DTV, and they could not remotely fix it, figured it was the receiver, and sent me a refurbished box. Same issue. Called again, signed up for the service plan ($$$), and they sent techs out to diagnose the problem.

The techs were great - found the original install (done when I moved 6 months ago) was a mess - not grounded, badly wired, etc. They re-did all the wiring, put in a new LNB, and gave me a brand new H21-200. But - I'm still having the same problem. They were not able to resolve it and left saying it must be some interference in my house. I don't buy it, since the upstairs TV (which is in the room directly above the basement) works fine.

Here's what happens - the setup screens work fine until you get to the "Advanced Program Guide Data" screen, which loads to 99% and stops cold. No amount of rebooting or unplugging has helped. According to the techs, there is plenty of signal coming off the dish. Tried wiring directly to the dish, removing everything from the rest of my system, connecting directly to the TV, different electrical outlets...nothing seems to work.

DirecTV has promised to send another tech out, but it's been over a week and despite 2 calls on my part, I'm getting nowhere. Does anyone have any ideas?

FWIW, the HR20-700 gets strong signals from 101/110/99(b)/103(a)/103(b). The basement only sees 101/110/119/103(a). The signal jumps around a lot on 101 - the others are more constant. I have been setting it up as a 5 LNB.

I'm stumped. I appreicate any help you can offer.

[Canis Lupus]

Welcome mcd,

Let's start at the simplest point - the fact that you can't get 103b on the downstairs box.
Do you have BBCs connected on that box?

On the working box, tune to CH 480 and 481 and make sure your BBCs are working there (they should pass an on-screen test).

If so, take those working BBCs and attach them to the downstairs box and try again.

Also - post your signal strengths (just % is fine) from the working box for all of your SATs.

Also - although you moved the box out of the way for the work that was done, was there any work near your cabling that could have caused a cabling problem? staples, rewiring, electrical etc?

[mcd4959]

Welcome mcd,

Let's start at the simplest point - the fact that you can't get 103b on the downstairs box.
Do you have BBCs connected on that box?

On the working box, tune to CH 480 and 481 and make sure your BBCs are working there (they should pass an on-screen test).

If so, take those working BBCs and attach them to the downstairs box and try again.

Also - post your signal strengths (just % is fine) from the working box for all of your SATs.

Also - although you moved the box out of the way for the work that was done, was there any work near your cabling that could have caused a cabling problem? staples, rewiring, electrical etc?

Thanks for the reply.

BBC is connected to basement box. Ch's 480& 481 working upstairs. Switched out an upstairs BBC for downstairs - no change. I thopught about the wiring being damaged as well, but the techs replaced everything all the way to the dish.

Upstairs signals:
101:
95-91-94-96-93-96-89-95
92-94-94-96-94-98-91-96
89-0-95-0-95-97-94-98
92-80-93-0-95-97-88-98

110:
95-94-55

119:
95-0-94
51-96-94-95-0-96-100-96

99(b):
76-0-0-0-69-0

103(a):
0-0-95-0-0-0
0-0
72-0-0-0-0-0-0-96

103(b):
67-54-66-52-65-56-67-56
69-61-72-59-71-64
72-60

[Mavrick]

I would suggest taking the known working box from upstairs and try it downstairs and the downstairs box upstairs if the problem stays downstairs then you know that it has to be either with the wireing or the multiswitch if you have one.

[Canis Lupus]

OK - I assume you're not using a multiswitch, so you have 3 lines running from the dish - 2 to the HR20 and 1 to the H20 correct?

Your 103b is low. You want that higher for sure.

I;m not sure where "Advanced Guide Data" comes from, but your data comes mostly from the 101, which looks good at least on one tuner.

You said they swapped out the LNB. When you compare signal strengths on the 101, (using the percentages, not the transponder readings), how do they compare? i.e. does Tuner one on the 101 show 95%, but Tuner 2 shows, say, 75%?

[mcd4959]

The signals on both tuners are virtually identical.

The techs ran 4 lines off the dish (there had been only 3 with one left open on the roof). The 4 lines were run to a new ground block; 3 come inside and the 4th has been capped off at the block.

Where would the multi-switch be if I had one? Aren't they in the dish now?

Since my 103(b) is low, should I attempt to realign my dish? To be honest, I'm not sure the techs did that.

Thanks for all the help - it is much appreicated.

Mark

[fwlogue]

Have you tried hooking the H20 up where the HR20 is at now? If so what happened? If not try that and see if it comes up all the way.

[Canis Lupus]

No prob. Yes there is a built-in switch in the dish supporting up to 4 tuners. A multiswitch is for more than 4, so you don't have one.

Your 103b issue would explain why you get signal issues on the new HDs, so a re-align is in order, whether you try it or have D* come and do it right.

However that doesn't quite explain the data timeout on the H20. Question: How do you know you cannot get the 103b at the H20 if you're unable to get past the Data screen? At what point during this process does it indicate you don't have the 103b?

The suggestion above to swap the boxes and test is not a bad idea either if you can't get further.

[mcd4959]

I'm going to try a a different wire route from the block to the receiver, and if that doesn't work I'll swap the working one. I'll report my findings.

It's colder than hell here today, so I really don't want to get on my roof to align the dish. Another couple of hours of frustration and I may be up there though!

[mcd4959]

However that doesn't quite explain the data timeout on the H20. Question: How do you know you cannot get the 103b at the H20 if you're unable to get past the Data screen? At what point during this process does it indicate you don't have the 103b?


The setup screen only shows the 101, 110, 119 and 103(a) satellites - this is at the signal strength screen. The Advanced program Guide is the next screen, and the 99% stop is on the "acquiring data from satellite" part of this screen.

FYI, I just made a brand new cable (compression fittings on each end), ran it inside the house to the ground block and the receiver, and have the same issue. I even used the capped off connection at athe gound block to try a different one.

Next step is to switch boxes I guess. My concern with this is the techs tried my original box, the refurbed one, and 2 new ones and got the same result.

[Canis Lupus]

Maybe just for giggles, run that cable directly between the dish and the receiver, bypassing the grounding block. Do you have any couplers?


FYI, I just made a brand new cable (compression fittings on each end), ran it inside the house to the ground block and the receiver, and have the same issue. I even used the capped off connection at athe gound block to try a different one.

[eakes]

Take the box from the basement and connect it upstairs where the working box is located, if possible use your temporary wire from the unused line at the grounding block for this connection.
Also get a long extension cord and power the basement receiver from an outlet on the first floor.
The antenna definitely needs alignment no matter the results of the above tests.

[mcd4959]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I have to run to an appointment, but I'll try the suggestions and report back later.

[carl6]

How long are the coax runs from the dish to each location? Are the ones to the basement significantly longer?

Carl

[K4SMX]

Maybe just for giggles, run that cable directly between the dish and the receiver, bypassing the grounding block. Do you have any couplers?
And use one of the dish lines that goes to the upstairs receiver, i.e., a known-good dish cable. Same as taking it upstairs except for the 120 VAC source being still in the basement. That should resolve the "interference in the house" issue.

[K4SMX]

.....Next step is to switch boxes I guess. My concern with this is the techs tried my original box, the refurbed one, and 2 new ones and got the same result.
If you still have any of those extra receivers, you can try them, too, on the new cable straight to a known-good dish line. Probably not....

Did those other receivers get to 99% and quit, or was that just the new -200? If that receiver won't work on a direct run to the dish or when connected to an upstairs cable, that would indicate to me it might be bad, i.e., there may be more than one problem. You probably need to go into the Setup menu and do a "Reset Everything" when testing the cabling. You will probably have to wait for the "99%" Guide data loading to time out before you can access the menu, however, if you're still stuck there.

[mcd4959]

Hey guys -

Well I have officially tried everything that has been suggested to no avail. I got through to the local service people again and they are supposedly sending a tech out today - unfortunaltey it's the same guy who was here last week, but he thinks he has a solution now. We'll see.

Thanks again for the tips - I'll post what happens after the tech is done.

[Bill Broderick]

What does "no avail" mean? Some of the suggestions here require the results in order to narrow down the problem. If the downstairs receiver worked upstairs, that means the the receiver is OK. If not, the problem would point toward the receiver. If the upstairs receiver works in the basement, then that would point toward the wiring being OK, etc...

"No avail" is "no help" toward solving your problem.

[1948GG]

Upstairs signals:
101:
95-91-94-96-93-96-89-95
92-94-94-96-94-98-91-96
89-0-95-0-95-97-94-98
92-80-93-0-95-97-88-98

110:
95-94-55

119:
95-0-94
51-96-94-95-0-96-100-96

99(b):
76-0-0-0-69-0

103(a):
0-0-95-0-0-0
0-0
72-0-0-0-0-0-0-96

103(b):
67-54-66-52-65-56-67-56
69-61-72-59-71-64
72-60

Okay, just stop all the swapping around sillyness and FIX the easiest part first, i.e., your dish is out of alignment! The low reading on 110/12 and all the 103b signals are a dead giveaway. If you don't have the skill/equipment to do it yourself, get DirecTV in there to do a tweak, or (read below) may be a bad multiswitch/dish).

While they're there doing that, have them troubleshoot any receiver problems that exist after. But you gotta get the signals up first. The good readings on 110/8 & 10 yet not 12, may be a bad multiswitch (in no external one, then the internal dish one).

[mcd4959]

Sorry it's been a few days since the update. Service tech promised to show up on Wednesday morning...I called at noon, he said he'd be there. No show. Called Thursday...got his VM...never called back. Called Ironwood directly, they contacted service tech, came back and told me I had to call DirecTV. Staying calm (remarkably), I asked to speak to a manager, who arranged for a senior tech to come on Saturday.

Tech does arrive on Sat., great guy, really pulls out all the stops trying to help. He can't figure it out. After a few hours, he decides to replace the whole thing - dish, LNB,wires - everything. Reboots whole system...and now the upstairs won't work either. We run a wire directly off the dish to the basement receiver and get a picture! But it's pixellating like mad. Run the cable normally and have same issue.

Upstairs, We disconnect the cable from my wallplate (standard Leviton connectors) and run the cable straight to the receiver, and get a picture - also pixellating, but better. Tech tells me picture will get better overnight - and it does. Upstairs working like a charm.

Downstairs - I turn on the receiver, and I have a picture on a few channels, madly pixellating on others. After a few channel changes via remote, the receiver reboots itself. Now I'm dead again. Stuck at "acquiring info from satellite" screen. At least it's not in the setup screens now.

Long story short - the tech beleives it may be a power issue - too much juice coming through the line - but really is unsure. My house was completely updated with new amps about a year ago (before I moved in) and I have had an electrician here to verify that everything is good. I have tried running the receiver through a Monster Cable Home THeater Powerbar, a Panamax line conditioner, straight to an electrical outlet, an outlet on another circuit breaker...same result.

Back to Sq 1...

Are there any signal boosters that might help? The tech said he was getting strong signals from the dish - I have a free southern line of sight, no trees or anything. This guy was a 10-year vet and said he's never seen anything like this before. Glad to know it's not my fault!

Any other ideas?

[K4SMX]

.....Tech tells me picture will get better overnight - and it does. Upstairs working like a charm......
He may be a 10 year vet, but I was not previously aware of this "overnight alchemy." Wonder how that works...the special outer space dew annointing the new dish....? Hmmmm!

So now that you have a new dish, what are your 103(b) signals on the upstairs receiver?

Does your H21 work upstairs? IIRC, that receiver has never worked anywhere.

Also, I seriously doubt this problem has anything at all to do with your AC power, and all wall plate pass-through connectors are suspect until proven otherwise.

If you have a friend who is a DirecTV customer with a 5 LNB dish, you might want to take your receivers over to his house to see if they actually work properly.

[joe diamond]

Here is an idea,

I have run across several situations where the "satellite setup" has been set to "3lnb dish" because people look at either the "sidecar" or the "slimline" and count the horns. They see three and set the satellite setup for three lnb.

It is worth a look.

Joe

[Canis Lupus]

Good thought Joe, although the OP did say he was using 5 LNB setup (I assume he meant on-screen setup), but worth a look.

[1948GG]

My house was completely updated with new amps about a year ago (before I moved in) and I have had an electrician here to verify that everything is good. I have tried running the receiver through a Monster Cable Home THeater Powerbar, a Panamax line conditioner, straight to an electrical outlet, an outlet on another circuit breaker...same result.

Please explain 'new amps'....? Never heard of that. Did you mean to say new WIRiNG? Did they move or mess around with your house grounding system? If the dish grounded to the main grounding point, or to some other point (unknown) causing a ground loop?

[Canis Lupus]

I think he means new power (hopefully).

Please explain 'new amps'....? Never heard of that.

[K4SMX]

"Amps" like in amperes. Probably some re-wiring and/or a larger rated service panel.

[mcd4959]

Ok guys, sorry for the intermittent posts, but "real life" has been getting in the way...

Here's the latest:

I have a picture finally in the basement...but still terrible pixellation on local HD and several other HD channels (high 200's mostly).

Upstairs all is pristine - now getting signals in the mid-90's on 103(b).

I'm happier...but still scratching my head. I'm thinking about trying a signal booster for the basement - worth a try?

[Canis Lupus]

how long are those cable runs to the basement again?

[mcd4959]

It's about 35 feet to the basement, and 30 feet upstairs.

[tunce]

With that distance an inline signal booster might do more harm then good. Try to put a grounding block right next to the downstairs box.

[K4SMX]

.....Does your H21 work upstairs? IIRC, that receiver has never worked anywhere......
What's the answer to this?

[1948GG]

What's the answer to this?

I went back and re-read all the posts. The system wasn't completely described, but I'll have to 'figure' that it's 2 ea. DVR's (1 HR20-700 and the other unknown, maybe HR21), in two different locations.

So, the 4 outputs from the dish as fully utilized, and no multiswitch of any type. And as of now, one of the dvr's has good signals, on both tuners (?), with no picuture problems related to the signal path (i.e. satellite to dish, dish to coaxial, coaxial to tuners).

Therefore, take the other reciever(s)/dvr's, and swap with the working one, since you know that the cables and such are good to there.

If it works fine, then take the HR20-700 to the other location, and see if it works there. If not, it's a cable problem, or the other outputs from the dish are bad.
Go further down the troubleshooting 'tree'.

If it doesn't, then it's a bad set.

Always take the know good 'test' set back to the original 'tested good' location and re-test that it still works fine at that location/setup. Double check in other words.

At this point, if the tuners/dvr's are all working, at the 'tested good' location, then put everything back to the original start point (HR20-700 that was working at the first location), and start swapping the cables at the dish/grounding block. You DO have a grounding block, from the cables at the dish at the point they enter the dweling...? Swaping the cables around at the LNB assy. is not a good idea, as the dish could easily be wacked out of alignment.

LABEL all the wiring so you can get back to the original setup, that you have working at least with one set of cables and tuners. That way you can (should) have a 'path' back to it as you swap things around.

All this sounds 'complex', but it isn't. You now have one setup, cables + tuners + dish outputs you know is working. Going from there is pretty easy, just go step by step, write it all down in your memory is a bit flacky (mine is!), and label everything before you start.

Bleh! it was hard writing all his down, but anyone who's done any kind of troubleshooting, whether it be sat stuff or home wiring or working on cars knows the drill. All I can say is HAVE FUN, you're already halfway there (one set of everything working!). :D

Potential problems:

1. Bad other set (dvr or whatever).

2. Bad cable runs

3. Bad outputs from the dish/multiswitch.

4. potential REALLY bad ground loops, but only after the other three have been crossed out.

[shendley]

Though more severe in nature, this reminds me of some problems I was having with an HR20 at one location, in particular - terrible pixelation on many new hd stations, wouldn't finish rebooting if restarted. It turned out to be an electrical problem. The outlet my HR20 was plugged into at the problematic location was 'shared' with an outdoor outlet with a gfi (to turn the power off if moisture seeped into the system). When I stopped using the outdoor outlet, the problem went away.

So, have you tried plugging the box that's giving you the problems into another outlet, preferably - as someone else suggested - with a long extension cord running to an outlet on the floor without a problem?

[mcd4959]

Thanks again, guys, for all the advice and suggestions - I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Here are some answers to everything I think you've asked:
- dish is grounded, and there is a ground block at the entry point of the house
- all wires have already been replaced
- the dish was even replaced (!)
- between myself and the techs, we have tried no less than 6 different receivers - my original, the refurbed one D sent me, and 2 new boxes from each tech. A new box is in now (H21).
- I had tried plugging the receiver in another room in the basement with no luck; I tried a long extension cord and plugged it in a different outlet upstairs today - same result
- I haven't tried bringing my DVR to the basement yet - frankly, I'm not comfortable with the prospect of losing everything, especially now that I've got mostly mid- to upper-90's on all satellites upstairs

Basement is the same as a few days ago - great, mid-90's signals on the 101/110/119 - but either "signal failed" or "n/a" on 103 (a). I don't even get 103 (b) downstairs (I do upstairs). Good pic on some SD channels, and a few HD channels - low #'d HD channels. Most of the 200 channels are not coming in - either seriously pixellated and unwatchable, or "searching for satellite".

I'm wondering if the ground issue might be correct. When the last D tech was here, we were working on the upstairs DVR, and out of nowhere my subwoofer started humming - low level, almost buzzing. Switching it off or disconnecting it from my Denon AV receiver stopped it. Now I hear a mild pop sound from the sub whenever the microwave in the kitchen (one room over) is turned on. This is definitely new - but very intermittent.

Should I call an electrician next? Would they be able to determine if I have a grounding issue?

Thanks again.

Mark

[BattleZone]

Should I call an electrician next? Would they be able to determine if I have a grounding issue?


Yes and yes! And I'd agree with the previous posters. I've ran into similar situations 2 or 3 times over the years, where no "DirecTV" fixes fixed the problems. In every case, it turned out to be a power-related problem. In one case, someone had driven a screw into a wall and pierced the romex inside, and power was arcing across the screw to the ground. Did I mention that the screw itself was hot? They were very lucky not to have had a house fire.

[ironwood]

Try this:
1. Disconnect green ground wire from the ground block.
2. Disconnect satellite inputs from the receiver upstairs so that your basement receiver is the only receiver connected to the dish. After each step - reset the receiver.
3. With ground and second receiver disconnected try to move your extension power cord to different outlets in different parts of the house.

The tricky part with electrical - it doesnt have to be bad power in the basement for receiver to be acting up. It can be outlet upstairs where "good" receiver is plugged in. And it will affect your basement receiver.

Wouldnt hurt to double check b-band converters. I assume you already switched those with "good" receiver.

[mcd4959]

Thanks ironwood - I will try your suggestions today.

I went ahead and scheduled an electrician to come out to the house - if nothing else than for peace of mind. I'm having a weird issue with a remote no longer charging than I'm told (from another forum) could be voltage related. Too many coincidences with a possible electrical issue involved, so I figured I should get a pro out here to make sure all is OK. They arrive tomorrow afternoon.

I'll post results. Fingers crossed!

[jaguar325]

Generally, when a piece of A/V equipment acts up in a particular location, it's got to do with wiring. Sounds like you're way down the tracks on diagnosing electrical problems but I didn't see reference to what you're tried in terms of bypassing the coax. You could have a piece of cable that's gotten damaged, a bad connector, or might be on the verge of a distance limitation.

If you have access to the feeds coming directly off the dish, try hooking one up to the receiver directly - bypassing the existing cabling in your house. If that works but you still can't get it to work in the normal location, there might be a problem with the RG6 between that spot and the location in question, try using a new piece of RG6 run separately from the existing cable all the way to where that receiver normally sits to see if the distance is a factor. If it works with the new cable, then it's got to do with the old cable, multiswitch or something in between.

[inkahauts]

Have you tried using a UPS battery backup? Any computer one that is decent should keep your voltage at 120, so trying that might tell you if you are having voltage problems.

[mcd4959]

OK, you guys are going to love this...

I tried ironwood's solution of disconnecting my upstairs 2-feed DVR and then rebooting the downstairs receiver. Bang zoom - downstairs receiver boots up, great picture on all channels, including HD, great signal on 103b.

I then go upstairs, reconnect the DVR, and have the usual great picture up there. I'm totally psyched.

I went back downstairs, and still had the HD channel I was on before I went upstairs. I'm thinking all is great...

BUT...

...then I changed the channel. Back to "searching for satellite", pixellated HD and high 200's...same as before.

I did have an electrician come out today and he verified that the house and dish are grounded properly, there are no problems with voltage, and basically nothing was done by anyone that did any damage.

So it seems to me that there just isn't a strong enough signal coming into the house to handle the 3 feeds at the same time. Is there a signal booster anyone can recommend that would help this?

Is ther anything else to consider at this point?

BTW, thanks ironwood - you pinpointed the problem.

Mark

[eakes]

What your tests have shown is that the problem is not lack of signal from the antenna to the downstairs receiver, but the signal from the receiver to the dish has a problem. If the problem was poor signal down, then the downstairs receiver would not have shown a good signal when connected by itself.

What you have is a ground potential difference between the two receivers. What happens is the upstairs receiver is providing the ground for the system which happens to be different from the ground from downstairs. The result is the voltage delivered by the downstairs receiver to the switch/LNBs is of an incorrect value when referenced to the ground provided by the upstairs receiver. The switch then does not switch properly and/or the required LNB receives insufficient power to operate correctly.

The solution is to correct the ground problem.

As a test power both receivers (and TVS) from the same AC outlet using extension cords. Both receivers should then work correctly.

[K4SMX]

....What you have is a ground potential difference between the two receivers......
Agree. And I don't think this could ever occur if the cases of the HR2x series receivers were grounded through a 3 wire grounding line plug to a properly wired house.

[mcd4959]

Forgive my ignorance, but how would I go about correcting the ground problem? Is there a way to diagnose this? The electrician said everything is grounded properly, so I'm confused. I have a ground pole buried under the fusebox, with a thick gauge copper wire connected to it from the fusebox. The electrician tested the outlets in the basement and they are all showing as grounded. When I had the house inspected (we moved in 7 months ago) all the outlets were tested and grounded.

The wiring from the dish: one of the RG6 wires has a ground wire attached to it which the DTV tech placed through the opening at the top of the ground block. There is a second green wire that is attached to a clamp on a pipe on the house that was conncted to the opening at the bottom of the ground block. Is this the problem?

I disconnected both of these wires per ironwood's suggestion above - should I reconnect only one or run a wire to the pole in the ground? Or should I just give up and go with cable??? (Kidding guys!)

Getting both receivers to operate from one outlet full time will be quite a challenge. I'd have to do some serious drilling - and I live in a 70 year old brick house. Not fun.

I really do appreicate the help here guys. At least I've given you all something challenging to think about, right???

[eakes]

The voltage differential between the two receivers is likely caused by a difference in potential on the AC neutral at the upstairs and downstairs AC outlets (hence the suggestion to try feeding both receivers from the same outlet). The receiver chassis are not connected to AC ground (no three-prong plug), therefore AC ground could be absolutely correct at both outlets (up and down) but the AC neutrals could have a difference in potential although they should both be at AC ground potential. The problem is likely caused by unwanted resistance in the AC neutral wiring between the outlet(s) and the AC panel (I assume all wiring in the house feeds from the same AC panel).
Since you stated earlier that both receivers worked at their present locations prior to some construction work in the basement, I would begin any investigation into the problem by looking at the work that was done. If there was any work that involved AC wiring in the basement, I would certainly take a close look at what was done and how.

I would question the outside ground from the RG6 grounding block to the pipe on the side of the house - this may not be a good ground.

One solution which has been demonstrated to work (although not practical) is to install a separate antenna system for each receiver location!

[davejacobson]

The dish ground and all the cable grounds should go the the ground rod by your fuse box.The ground CAN go to a cold water pipe less than 5 feet from where it enters the house, but MUST go to the ground rod for the electrical system. ALL grounds must terminate at the same point.If you have more than 1 ground rod they still must be connected together. It sounds like you have different ground potentials. Go to http://ecmweb.com/nec/electric_article_radio_television/
to learn about proper grounding

[mcd4959]

UPDATE

I discovered one problem - by removing the green wire from the ground block, I am able to get all channels except local HD and high 200's HD - they are very pixellated. So grounding is definitley an issue.

I tried plugging the downstairs receiver into the same outlet as upstairs, and have the same result. I'm trying all kinds of things now. Interestingly, I tried rebooting both systems at the same time while plugged into the same outlet; downstairs worked perfectly until upstairs fully rebooted, and then the pixellation problem started again.

Right now I have them on separate outlets (1 down, 1 up), and am getting the same results as when plugged into the same outlet. So there is improvement, but not enough.

The odd numbered transponders on 103b will not lock on downstairs. I am getting a minimum signal of 87, but most are in the mid to upper 90's. The odd #'d transponders will show 94 or so for a second, and then drop to 0.

The only thing done electrically in the basement was the addition of an electric exhaust fan in the bathroom. It is on a different cuircuit from the DTV receiver, though.

[K4SMX]

Hook the wire from the dish back up to your grounding block.

Disconnect the green wire to the water pipe and run a new wire from the grounding block to the ground rod at the electrical service.

Loosen a screw on the back of any receiver not having a 3 prong plug and run a wire from the case to the screw on the wall plate where the receiver plugs in to the AC. (This may requires a #10 security Torxx driver, which you can by at Sears. Alternatively, you could wrap the wire around the coax connector in a very secure fashion or use a large alligator clip from Radio Shack.)

Seriously consider eakes' suggestion to review the work done in the basement. They've got a poorly connected or mis-wired neutral (white) wire in one of your receptacles or somewhere else on this circuit, or they have somehow damaged it in the walls. (Isn't the downstairs receiver on the same circuit as the area in which they were working?) Another possibility: did they modify any lighting where the work was done?

[ironwood]

Have you tried plugging both receivers downstairs?

[ironwood]

The only solution we know for sure in this case is to order a second dish and run downstairs receiver from its own dish. Will save you headaches. But of course we wouldnt be able to solve the mystery..................

[mcd4959]

Yesterday brought more fun...

I took apart the new switch for the electric fan in the basement bath, and found one problem. The ground wire had been spliced into only one of the switches. It had been a light switch and an electrical outlet double gang box; when they added the fan, they put a triple gang box in and a separate switch for the fan. The ground wires from the light and fan switches were twisted togethter and connected to the fan only.

I untwisted them, followed the wire path to be sure I was right, and reconnected the grounds to their proper switches.

Back to the TV - have the RG6 w/the ground coming off the dish now reconnected into the ground block. I do not have a separate ground wire coming off the ground block at this time.

Yesterday afternoon, I have full strong signals on everything - all satellites including 103b, local HD, etc. Strong, mid-90's signals on all transponders upstais and downstairs. Great picture on both. Problem solved, right???

Wrong. While watching a movie on Starz HD, picture starts pixellating again. Never breaks up completely, but is annoying. By the time the movie ends - around 7 PM my time - I have lost most of the non-HD channels in the high 200's. All HD is working perfectly though. Now it's the 110 satellite that has zeroes on several transponders. I have no hair left from all the head scratching...

So...today I'm going to try:
1) reconnecting the ground from the ground block to the house ground pole
If that doesn't work
2) connect a separate ground wire from the receiver as K4SMX suggested - my Panamax surge protector has a ground connection - should I try running it there?
If that doesn't work
3) second dish is not a bad idea, or I'm going to just skip it altogether. This has been going on for over a month now.

Thanks again for your patience and advice guys.

Mark

[jaguar325]

Yesterday brought more fun...

I took apart the new switch for the electric fan in the basement bath, and found one problem. The ground wire had been spliced into only one of the switches. It had been a light switch and an electrical outlet double gang box; when they added the fan, they put a triple gang box in and a separate switch for the fan. The ground wires from the light and fan switches were twisted togethter and connected to the fan only.

I untwisted them, followed the wire path to be sure I was right, and reconnected the grounds to their proper switches.

Back to the TV - have the RG6 w/the ground coming off the dish now reconnected into the ground block. I do not have a separate ground wire coming off the ground block at this time.

Yesterday afternoon, I have full strong signals on everything - all satellites including 103b, local HD, etc. Strong, mid-90's signals on all transponders upstais and downstairs. Great picture on both. Problem solved, right???

Wrong. While watching a movie on Starz HD, picture starts pixellating again. Never breaks up completely, but is annoying. By the time the movie ends - around 7 PM my time - I have lost most of the non-HD channels in the high 200's. All HD is working perfectly though. Now it's the 110 satellite that has zeroes on several transponders. I have no hair left from all the head scratching...

So...today I'm going to try:
1) reconnecting the ground from the ground block to the house ground pole
If that doesn't work
2) connect a separate ground wire from the receiver as K4SMX suggested - my Panamax surge protector has a ground connection - should I try running it there?
If that doesn't work
3) second dish is not a bad idea, or I'm going to just skip it altogether. This has been going on for over a month now.

Thanks again for your patience and advice guys.

Mark

Maybe your house is haunted by some past cable provider.

[K4SMX]

.......
So...today I'm going to try:
1) reconnecting the ground from the ground block to the house ground pole
If that doesn't work
2) connect a separate ground wire from the receiver as K4SMX suggested - my Panamax surge protector has a ground connection - should I try running it there?
If that doesn't work......
Don't use that water pipe. Use the ground rod for the electrical service, even if it's just a temporary line on the ground.

The surge protector ground post should be fine, if it's plugged directly into a grounding receptacle.

[arxaw]

K4SMX is right. Always use the main electrical ground rod for phone, cable and satellite dish & coax grounds.

Additionally, some locales do not allow cold water pipe connections any more.

[ironwood]

MCD let me ask you this: what happens when you switch receivers places?

[mcd4959]

I haven't switched places with receivers - I've tried so many in the downstairs location that it can't be the receiver.

I'm so frustrated now...my head really hurts from all this.

I'm back to square one...the grounding fixes did not work. I tried all the suggestions, one by one. Now the receiver won't see the 103b ("signal failed") again. Pixellation all over the place on the channels it does get. Won't lock on to transponders even on the 101.

It's got to be some kind of grounding issue. I read several of the other grounding issue posts on the board and the problems I'm having are very similar.

The only thing that has worked was when I plugged the 2 receivers into the same outlet. I'm at the point now where I'm trying to figure out how to run a ridiculously long extension cord.

Just now my wife tells me that the picture is pixellating on channels upstairs. Great.

[ironwood]

Didn't you say basement receiver worked great downstairs when you disconnected upstairs receiver?

[K4SMX]

There's some as yet undiagnosed problem in your basement wiring. I don't know where your electrical panel is located, but how much trouble would it be for an electrician to run a new piece of Romex from the panel through the floor and across the basement to your downstairs receiver location? He could wire it into the same breaker which serves your upstairs receiver.

[mcd4959]

Unfortunately it would be a huge deal to run new romex - the panel is at the back of the house, the reciver in the front. 2 layers of brick, 70 year old house, concrete floor in basement. Right now I am missing my cookie cutter suburb house with its drywall and studs...

Upstairs seems to have corrrected itself after a reboot. Downstairs I've got nada right now. I agree it has to be the wiring at this point. The dish signals are great, and the unit does work when plugged into the same outlet as the upstairs receiver. It's perplexing - the ground fixes should have worked, I thought.

Tomorrow I'm going up on the roof just to be sure the ground wire is connected properly up there. After that I may seriously run an extension cord through the floor upstairs - how dangerous is that...

[K4SMX]

Not a problem. Buy yourself a 14 gauge extension cord of sufficient length and a spare male in-line grounding plug. Chop the male end off, push the wire through the hole to the upstairs, attach the new plug, and you're good to go. Or you could do it from the other direction with an in-line grounding female receptacle.

[ironwood]

hmm I dont think you need to climb up on the roof, mcd.... That ground wire would not cause any problem whether it is connected or disconnected. Seriously. I know it is against electrical codes not to ground but I've seen a lot of installs without ground and it works just great. Bad or loose ground at the main source on the other hand would sometimes cause signal loss and pizelation/frame freeze on HD receivers. I just had one like that the other day. TV was unwatchable. As soon as I unhooked the ground wire from the panel everything went back to normal. The good part is I always check my signals before I leave otherwise we would have one very upset and angry customer.

[dlocks]

How about connecting the romex from the downstairs outlet to the same breaker where the upstairs outlet is connected in the panel.

[JGL]

The techs ran 4 lines off the dish (there had been only 3 with one left open on the roof). The 4 lines were run to a new ground block; 3 come inside and the 4th has been capped off at the block.



Forgive my ignorance here, but when you say 'capped off', do you mean as in a terminator installed on one of the lines from the LNB? Wouldn't that effectively short that output and possibly mess with the other voltages from the receiver? Just throwing it out there...not exactly sure how all that works.

JGL

[K4SMX]

I think he's just talking about a plastic push-on cap. I've never been really sure exactly what type receiver mcd4959 is trying to run down there in the basement. In the OP he referred to an H21-200. Maybe it's an HR21 with one antenna cable.....

[mcd4959]

The cap is actually metal, and it's just an RG6 terminator the techs installed. It screws on like a cable.

Downstairs right now is an HR21 - sorry for the confusion.

As of last night, I still have major pixellation on local HD, many channels 249 and above in the 200's, and several of the HD movie channels (Starz, Cinemax). It's unwatchable. Everything is perfect upstairs (HR20-700).

I may call the electrician back and ask if Stew's suggestion of changing the romex at the box would work, but I'm at my end with this now. My wife suggested that we just run an extension cord upstairs when we want to watch downstairs. Horrible yet practical solution for now.

I do want to thank you all once again for walking me through this. I don't know what else to try at this point, but I'll keep looking.

Mark

[K4SMX]

Remove that "cap," please!

[RegGeek]

Mark,
I am way out of my league on the technical issues you are facing, but have you tried removing that metal cap? When we installed our multiswitch there were warnings in big bold letters not to cap off unused ports with metal terminators. I realize you're not using a multiswitch from previous posts, but taking it off might be worth a try.

Edit: oops. What K4SMX said - he beat me to it.

[ironwood]

So after 5 service calls and hours of fixing things including completely changing the dish, cables and receivers those tech managed to overlook a terminator left at the ground block? Wow. Terminators are not allowed on 5 lnb dishes its basics every tech should know. Like pointing dish to the south.

[mcd4959]

Good to know about the terminator. Sometimes it is the simplest things that get overlooked.

I removed the terminator yesterday, and rebooted the basement receiver last night. About 2 hours later I have a blank screen, signal failed, etc. I'm too tired to deal with it at this point, so I called it a day.

This morning I turned it on and voila...full picture on every channel - local HD, high 200's, etc. Great signals across the board. I'm psyched...but cautious. I did not have the upstairs receiver on at all since the reboot downstairs.

Still in disbelief mode, I went ahead and turned on the upstairs receiver - all good. Go back downstairs and welcome back to pixellation land. Now it's just local and national HD (not all national HD - high 200's mostly). Tried turning off upstairs but no change downstairs.

So it seems clear that there is some sort of electrical feedback or crosstalk that causes issues with the basement receiver. So it looks like I'm back to square 1 with an electrical or grounding issue.

[ironwood]

You have to reboot for changed to take effect.

[JGL]

Are you running 2 lines to the downstairs receiver and 1 to the upstairs?

If you remove the coax line to the upstairs receiver while the downstairs receiver is having all these issues, does it make it better or the same on the downstairs receiver?

[joe diamond]

Forgive my ignorance here, but when you say 'capped off', do you mean as in a terminator installed on one of the lines from the LNB? Wouldn't that effectively short that output and possibly mess with the other voltages from the receiver? Just throwing it out there...not exactly sure how all that works.

JGL

LGL,

You may have something. The chrome caps are not to be used to terminate active multiswitch ports. They can short the switch. The plastic caps are ok. You have to pull the little pin out of the chrome ones.


ALSO........if the HD is running through a surge supressor that could be a problem .

Joe

[ironwood]

Is there happy ending for this story or what? I hope mcd didnt give up on us.

[mcd4959]

Nah, I haven't given up on you guys! You've been way too good to me:) I've just been very busy - I got laid off a couple of months ago, so I've been real busy in the job search mode. Luckily, I've found a great new position that starts in a couple of weeks, so I can get back to real life issues, like finding answers to my weird satellite problem.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, it's still not resolved...and it's gotten weirder.

Now I have a great picture any time during the day on both receivers. Once darkness falls, the pixellation begins and stations disappear. No amount of resetting makes a difference. That next morning, all is well.

I did remove the metal cap on the 4th line at the ground block. It's just open now. I haven't had any time to mess with the ground wires again or run the extension cord so both receivers are running on the same outlet. That's my next step, but I want to make sure it works at night given the latest bizarro problem.

I will keep you posted...there WILL be a positive outcome...or I could just move...

Mark

[K4SMX]

I think you need to move. You are obviously near a crack in the Torchwood rift. :)

[Hansen]

Any chance the installer put a metal termination cap on the 4th outlet of the LNB. You'll have to pull the LNB to find out.

Edit: Assuming he only ran 3 lines from LNB, which seems unlikely but possible.

[K4SMX]

Any chance the installer put a metal termination cap on the 4th outlet of the LNB? You'll have to pull the LNB to find out.
Most excellent sleuthing based on the facts in evidence!

[ironwood]

dish does have four lines otherwise there wouldnt be a terminator on the ground block.

[ironwood]

as to the new development we go back to the electrical problem. something happens at night with power supply that makes that receiver act weird

[kokishin]

Nah, I haven't given up on you guys! You've been way too good to me:) I've just been very busy - I got laid off a couple of months ago, so I've been real busy in the job search mode. Luckily, I've found a great new position that starts in a couple of weeks, so I can get back to real life issues, like finding answers to my weird satellite problem.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, it's still not resolved...and it's gotten weirder.

Now I have a great picture any time during the day on both receivers. Once darkness falls, the pixellation begins and stations disappear. No amount of resetting makes a difference. That next morning, all is well.

I did remove the metal cap on the 4th line at the ground block. It's just open now. I haven't had any time to mess with the ground wires again or run the extension cord so both receivers are running on the same outlet. That's my next step, but I want to make sure it works at night given the latest bizarro problem.

I will keep you posted...there WILL be a positive outcome...or I could just move...

Mark

Other things to try:

1) During the day when both DVRs are working well, turn on any lights or electrical devices that would be on at night when you have the problem. If the problem occurs now, then start turning off each electrical device until the problem goes away. If some electrical device is causing the problem, then this should help isolate it.

2) Have you tried another HD DVR upstairs? Theory is that the upstairs HD DVR might be causing the problem.

[Hansen]

There have been lots of good suggestions here. It does sound like some bizzare power issue with ground or neutral.I also like the idea by the previous poster to make sure the dvr upstairs is not introducing the problem even though it does work. A couple other thoughts

- can you run an extension cord from your neighbor temporily to help with diagnostics.

- I wonder if a neutral wire has been crossed with a common on some AC circuit. Check all recent electrical work and all switches
, lights and recepticles on both branch lines and look for mis-matching.

- this is not likely the cause but who knows. Check your power voltage and see if your getting wide fluctuations up and down. You can hook up a digital voltmeter to a wall recepticle and watch to see what it does. There are some voltmeters that track the changes and you can download the results to a computer. Radio shack has one I think. Although I did not have your problems, I had some very bizarre things go on with electronics (did not have HR2x at time) that were caused by power variations. Power was going from 119 to 144 and all over in between. Turned out it was caused by corrossion on the large underground connection bars at the street where my house power tapped into the main transmission line for the street. Power company replaced them and propely sealed them and issue solved. We went through all kinds of ideas and investigations before coming across this cause and solution. Moral of story: the cause is out there and can be found, do not discount any theories and make no assumptions about somone having done something correctly - check everything for yourself to make sure.
Good luck and keep us posted on the results.

[Hansen]

Also, do you have any 3-way switches on any of the branch circuits feeding the receivers? If so, check the wiring to make sure someone didn't mix up the wiring, which is common when done by a prior homeowner. It might also pay to check any other 3-way switches as all wiring goes back to the panel and cross contamination can come from another branch circuit.

[K4SMX]

dish does have four lines otherwise there wouldnt be a terminator on the ground block.
Oops! Good point. Hansen's laudatory appelations are hereby revoked. :)

[Hansen]

Any luck finding the cause of the problems?

[Rockaway1836]

Hi guys, I just read this incredible thread. This has to be frustraing as hell for the OP. There have been a lot of great trouble shooting going on here. While I think the terminatin cap may have been the cause of the original problem. The day night issue, I think may be moisture in the system someplace. (most likley the LNB) ) I'm thinking that because the OP lives in a cold area, that the moisture is freezing up at night screwing up the connection. Do you guys think that's possible?

[joe diamond]

Rockaway,
Now we are really looking close. I have seen what you describe happen over several years where water has made it into a fitting at a ground block. It pushes the center wire away with each freeze. I think it must be like a spark plug arcing. Eventually..after years of working ..the gap finally gets too wide and he circuit opens. When you find one of these there is no center wire.

Joe

[ironwood]

Rockaway,
Now we are really looking close. I have seen what you describe happen over several years where water has made it into a fitting at a ground block. It pushes the center wire away with each freeze. I think it must be like a spark plug arcing. Eventually..after years of working ..the gap finally gets too wide and he circuit opens. When you find one of these there is no center wire.

Joe

Absolutely not. If you read this thread from the beginning you ll see that every part of this installation was replaced at least once. And the problem is still the same it was at the beginning. Everything in this case was replaced exept the electrical.

[joe diamond]

I don't think so either......unless there is an uncrimped or uncompressed fitting somewhere.

Mark mentioned removing a metal cap from the ground block.HMM! There are four wires from the dish to one of those 4 position ground blocks......the chrome kind that have defective ports.......Sometimes the center wire gets crushed or bent.

But the night thing is still strange.

Joe

[JGL]

Because of the day/night issue, now we have to determine if the OP has any circuits with photocells on them. Any outside lights that are controlled by these?
Sometimes it's not hard to have one mis-wired, or cause strange problems if one of these is failing.
If no photocells, are there any outside lights on a timer circuit?

As long as we're grasping at straws here, one other thing may be interference from a circuit that has a bad ballast in a flourescent light fixture.
The OP may have to just start turning off breakers one at a time and see if anything improves.

JGL

[K4SMX]

What your tests have shown is that the problem is not lack of signal from the antenna to the downstairs receiver, but the signal from the receiver to the dish has a problem. If the problem was poor signal down, then the downstairs receiver would not have shown a good signal when connected by itself.

What you have is a ground potential difference between the two receivers. What happens is the upstairs receiver is providing the ground for the system which happens to be different from the ground from downstairs. The result is the voltage delivered by the downstairs receiver to the switch/LNBs is of an incorrect value when referenced to the ground provided by the upstairs receiver. The switch then does not switch properly and/or the required LNB receives insufficient power to operate correctly.

The solution is to correct the ground problem.

As a test power both receivers (and TVS) from the same AC outlet using extension cords. Both receivers should then work correctly.
.....I tried plugging the downstairs receiver into the same outlet as upstairs, and have the same result. I'm trying all kinds of things now. Interestingly, I tried rebooting both systems at the same time while plugged into the same outlet; downstairs worked perfectly until upstairs fully rebooted, and then the pixellation problem started again......
But later you say:

.....The only thing that has worked was when I plugged the 2 receivers into the same outlet. I'm at the point now where I'm trying to figure out how to run a ridiculously long extension cord......
I'm confused. :confused: Which of your statements do you think is correct please? Have you tried this again now that you've removed the terminated end cap off the spare port on the grounding block?

[Hansen]

Anyone know if the OP solved the problem?

[Nightraider]

mcd4959,
Do you have any florescence (or neon) lights indoors or outdoors. You could have a bad ballast or one going bad that comes on at night (as someone else mentioned). This could be injecting noise through signal between the dish and the recievers. Your reciever is like a radio that expects to have a certain signal level. If you have interference (RF noise) that raises the noise floor you reciever is incapable of seeing the dish because it's signal is lost in the noise. A spectrum analyzer would be nice for you to see if this is the case or to see transients (noise) at the end of your coax and at your ac wall plate. The ballast suggestion comes from a problem we experienced on a cell site issue (I'm a Cell Site Tech) that was causing dropped calls every night and clear up in the morning. We checked a multitude of things at the cell site during the day. We looked at the stats for the timeline it started and matched that up to the time we were there about an hour prior to that with our test equipment hooked up (spectrum analyzer). One us was outside and one inside looking at the monitor. When I seen the noise come up off the noise floor accross the band (multiple megahertz's) The other Tech noticed a business sign come on right in front of our site. It ended up being a bad ballast. Believe me you see some strange stuff that can cause you grief and test your skills. But it's fun searching and finding the culprit!! One other thing. If possible turn off everything at the breaker except for the recepticles were both TVs/DTV RX are and see if that helps. If that does try turnning one breaker on at a time to isolate circuit causing the problem.

[ironwood]

What is Cell Site?

[Hansen]

Cellullar (mobile phone) transmitting site.