Diplexer, multiplexer, SWM, wtf?

[bc3tech]

i'm in an MDU community here where each building has a dish. i was told by D* that in order to get the new channels, the dish would need replacement. my HOA isn't replacing them :(

however i am told by another guy in my building that he gets all the channels w/ the current dish. said the installer came buy, took 3 "plugs" off the back of the dish, came in and configured his box, and boom all channels.

i'm trying to configure my box now but to no avail. 103(b) shows up as a satellite ("OK") during the detection, but signal strength is 0, and only 2 of the whole available list of transponders gets a response

I looked over the troubleshooting thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=99528) regarding the new channels and see mention that you must NOT have a diplexer or any splitters in the line.

Here's my setup:
Living room, HR20 (HD DVR), receiving local and "old" HD channels
Bedroom, R15 (SD DVR) - one line split to support dual tuners

Sometimes i get some problems w/ this setup where my upstairs TV won't get signal for whatever reason. i'm told this is because i'm not using an SWM (they weren't out yet when i bought the place)

However, down in my phone/cable configuration area, i see some sort of splitter or whatever. I've attached a picture. My questions are:
could this be the reason that for my 103(b) satellite signal i'm getting (nearly) all zeroes?
Switching to an SWM should fix the problem?
would an SWM allow my current configuration to work flawlessly?thanks for any help!

[Earl Bonovich]

If your MDU already has a 5LNB dish up there.

Then yes, it is possible that installer tapped directly into the dish...

However, he just screwed up the rest of your MDU, as they are going to have difficulties getting the 110 and 119 sats.

Without an MFH-2 or MFH-3 solution, or a direct connection to your 5LNB dish...

There is nothing you can do to get the new HD channels.

And SWM won't help you at this point, as you need access to 4 dedicated stream from the 5LNB dish.

We would really need to see how your entire MDU is wired, to give you some pointers on how to get everything wired up.

[bc3tech]

My 110 and 119 sats work fine TMK. I can get every channel i'm supposed to, w/ the exception of the "new" HD ones.

[Earl Bonovich]

My 110 and 119 sats work fine TMK. I can get every channel i'm supposed to, w/ the exception of the "new" HD ones.

We need a lot more description then on how the signals are setup from your MDU's dish to the other guy in your building.. and to you..

To help undestand how everything is setup.

[carl6]

Also, the device in your picture is a 3x4 multiswitch, which does not/will not work with the new mpeg4 HD channels. Further, it appears to only have 2 input lines, which means it shouldn't even be getting 110/119.

Carl

[AntAltMike]

Most likely, the building has an AU9 with two ports being used for Sat A evens and odds, and two ports unused. Most likely, the installer removed the two caps on the unused AU9 ports, and either, a) is using them as direct, full service lines to another unit, or b) put splitters on the two ports presently in use, and the full service tenant may now be connected to a WB switch that gets its Sat A/99 from the two way splitters, and Sat B-C/103 from the two ports that had previously been unused.

Something could be "kludged" to accommodate bc3tech, but one significant limitation on whatever can be done is that he either will need one home run for each tuner if he paid for and installed a WB switch to go where the two HF splitters are now, or he'd have to add an SWM, a power inserter and four HF splitters. Doing so might well exceed his own technical expertise, and even finding someone in the Yellow Pages who will do this if bc3tech funrishes the parts.

[bc3tech]

Also, the device in your picture is a 3x4 multiswitch, which does not/will not work with the new mpeg4 HD channels. Further, it appears to only have 2 input lines, which means it shouldn't even be getting 110/119.

Carlso i can get ppl to stop telling me what i shouldn't be getting, and more ppl helping me w/ my issue, see the attached images.
Most likely, the building has an AU9 with two ports being used for Sat A evens and odds, and two ports unused. Most likely, the installer removed the two caps on the unused AU9 ports, and either, a) is using them as direct, full service lines to another unit, or b) put splitters on the two ports presently in use, and the full service tenant may now be connected to a WB switch that gets its Sat A/99 from the two way splitters, and Sat B-C/103 from the two ports that had previously been unused.

Something could be "kludged" to accommodate bc3tech, but one significant limitation on whatever can be done is that he either will need one home run for each tuner if he paid for and installed a WB switch to go where the two HF splitters are now, or he'd have to add an SWM, a power inserter and four HF splitters. Doing so might well exceed his own technical expertise, and even finding someone in the Yellow Pages who will do this if bc3tech funrishes the parts.
thank you VERY much for your response. i am going to call d* this week and tell them that one person in my building is getting 103(b) off the existing dish, and the rest of us are not. perhaps they will then do something about it.
i have been told, by more than one person, that if d* sees that they did not hook up the systems in an MDU, they "won't touch" the wiring. it appears the guy that IS getting 103b called d* and an actual d* tech came out and did whatever he did to let this guy get the new channels. ideally that's what i'd like to see happen to the rest of us.
In addition, please see the last image i've attached, is the transponder results from 103B that i am getting... could anybody tell me what channels (if any) these should equate to?

[bc3tech]

attached is still more evidence of what's going on. I took some photos of the dish on the structure as well as the back connections (as good as i could get). I also contacted the guy in our unit that is getting the channels, and had a look at his connection into his house. It appears he has the MAIN line (big ol' fatty) running to his place only!

My question now is, what could an installer / company do w/ that main line to get it to everybody's place? short of running lines to all of us?

[litzdog911]

That guy got there first :)

There's no simply way for DirecTV to also connect you using that same dish without disconnecting everyone that's connected via the multiswitch you posted earlier. The right answer is to use one of the new MDU/SWM solutions, so perhaps you and the other folks in your situation can put pressure on the installer to upgrade the entire system (provided they can get the equipment, of course).

Another option would be installing a second dish just for you.

[AntAltMike]

There is nothing to be accomplished by bc3tech calling DirecTV because he is not presently aggrieved and there is nothing that DirecTV can do for him.

His building has a Sat A reception and distribution system, and so he is presently getting all satellite signals he is entitled to.

The MDU installer installed a reception antenna that has capabilities in excess of what that system requires, and someone found a way to put that capability to use for himself. That does not entitle or even enable anyone else to derive similar benefit from that system.

There is no economical way to make DirecTV's full Ka/Ku service available to everybody without spending several thousand dollars. Bc3tech might benefit from having someone scoff up the remaining, unused port for himself, but if he only has one home run coax going from his junction closet to his unit and if he is presently enjoying the benefit of a stacked Sat A trunkline system to support multiple STD tuners in his unit, then he won't be able to get Ku/Ka access without sacrificing the signals to his other tuners.

[bc3tech]

There is nothing to be accomplished by bc3tech calling DirecTV because he is not presently aggrieved and there is nothing that DirecTV can do for him.

His building has a Sat A reception and distribution system, and so he is presently getting all satellite signals he is entitled to.

The MDU installer installed a reception antenna that has capabilities in excess of what that system requires, and someone found a way to put that capability to use for himself. That does not entitle or even enable anyone else to derive similar benefit from that system.

There is no economical way to make DirecTV's full Ka/Ku service available to everybody without spending several thousand dollars. Bc3tech might benefit from having someone scoff up the remaining, unused port for himself, but if he only has one home run coax going from his junction closet to his unit and if he is presently enjoying the benefit of a stacked Sat A trunkline system to support multiple STD tuners in his unit, then he won't be able to get Ku/Ka access without sacrificing the signals to his other tuners.
again thanks for your responses. However i'm afraid i am not picking up on all your tech-speak.

when you say "full Ka/Ku service," are you referring to the new HD channels? We were told by the assoc that the contractor who wired the buildings quoted $300/bldg to upgrade the system. What kind of a solution does that sound like it would be?
I was thinking it was likely an SWM w/ wires run to each unit from the dish.

[AntAltMike]

Upgrade from what to what? What was there? How many units did it serve? All anyone might be able to do for $300 is replace a round dish with an AU9 and tack on a WB multiswitch, which will allow it to support 8 or 16 full service home run coaxes.

DirecTV has a "core" satellite parked at 101 deg that carries its most popular, standard definition programming. It simultaneously transmits two sets of signals at the same frequencies (950-1,450 MHz). The two sets of signals can either be connected to multiswitches, which allow a larger number of coaxes to select from either one set of signals or the other, or they can spend a little more to frequency-shift or "stack" one set above the other, such that one coax can simultaneously carry all of those standard definition signals (950-2025 MHz).

DirecTV also has partial use of two other satellite slots, commonly called Sat B and Sat C and that is where its nine original channels of Ku HDTV programming are (ESPN, HBO, Showtime, etc). It is expensive and often impractical to stack all of the Sat A, B and C signals onto one line (950 MHz-3,400 MHz) so it ordinarily is only done in highrise buildings where the system operator has a monopoly (read: franchised cable generally not available). More commonly, the four sets of signals will go into 4-input multiswitches, and each home run coax will have full access to any one of the four sets of signals at one time.

DirecTV has since begun operating another fleet of satellites broadcasting at different frequencies, which are called Ka band satellites and are in the 99 and 103 degree slots. It is using these for its local broadcast HDTV and for about eighty additional national HDTV channels. It has found a way to mix these signals with the Ku signals so that there are four different sets of signals from 250 to 2,150 MHz. A receiver can call for any one of those four groups to enable it to tune the program of his choice, but that only works out well if the resident can arrange one coax for each TV tuner that he owns. Some MDUs are easy to "post-wire" with additional home run coaxes, and when that is the case, an MDU system operator just puts in lots of four input "wideband" multiswitches at the junction closet. WB616 switches presently retail for about $200 and can each support up to 16 home run coaxes going to 16 separate tuners.

But if you are limited to one home run coax per apartment, then you really have to use SWMs, which will cost you the better part of $300 for hardware for one unit (SWM, power inserter, high frequency splitters, etc) plus labor, plus reseller markup if you expect an installer to stand behind it. There are very few condo associations who will pay for a fully developed, expandable SWM system unless nearly all of the residents are using it, and I can tell you from experience that trying to "divvy" the costs between a small number of self-selected users is more of a headache than you can get any responsible installer to incur.