Policy on Choice Limited MDU

[AntAltMike]

I'm presently the "hardware guy" for a 400 unit MDU that has bulk SMATV. They are paying about $8.50 per drop per month for the programming they are getting. The property manager would like the contact converted to Choice Limited, whereby the bulk price goes up to $13.99 per drop per month, but then, if any resident wants to have his service upgraded to Choice, he gets a receiver box and is additionally billed $19.99 per month rather than $49.99, directly by DirecTV.

The dealer of record is concerned that if this property is converted to Choice Limited, he will be the one stuck explaining programming packages to the cusotmers, and if so, it might be too much of a headache to endure for the modest increase in commission he'd enjoy.

I told him that I think the residents would call DirecTV directly, they would be responsible for educating the customer and explaining the packages and then he would be notified to install a receiver in apt #XXX at street address #YYY. Can anyone confirm that that is how it works?

[DirecTv Chicago]

I'm presently the "hardware guy" for a 400 unit MDU that has bulk SMATV. They are paying about $8.50 per drop per month for the programming they are getting. The property manager would like the contact converted to Choice Limited, whereby the bulk price goes up to $13.99 per drop per month, but then, if any resident wants to have his service upgraded to Choice, he gets a receiver box and is additionally billed $19.99 per month rather than $49.99, directly by DirecTV.

The dealer of record is concerned that if this property is converted to Choice Limited, he will be the one stuck explaining programming packages to the cusotmers, and if so, it might be too much of a headache to endure for the modest increase in commission he'd enjoy.

I told him that I think the residents would call DirecTV directly, they would be responsible for educating the customer and explaining the packages and then he would be notified to install a receiver in apt #XXX at street address #YYY. Can anyone confirm that that is how it works?


That about sums it up. Generally you will start with a 48 channel headend on site when using Total Choice Limited. If a tenant wants to upgrade they would contact the system operator to install a receiver, as at this point they are going digital instead of analog and need at least a D12.

Once that is installed they will call DirecTV and have them hit the receiver with the Choice package and will pay the 19.99 instead of the full retail rate. Any upgrades from their, Choice Xtra, DVR, HD, Premium channels, etc they will pay the difference.

They do need to contact the System Operator first, this is very important. Because they are responsible for adding the programming to the account and in this case the discounted rate. If they contact DirecTV straight up the typical Customer Service Reps will only set them up for a retail account and they will not receive any discounts.

[AntAltMike]

One more thing. Suppose they just want HBO and Showtime, which cost around $14 each (I haven't checked lately) but they are satisfied with the analog Choice Limited. Can they set up an account just for those premiums and pay just for those two, or do they have to also pay the $19.99 for the digital upgrade, even if they don't want access to all of (Total) Choice.

I suspect that the best I could accomplish at this property is to advise the residents that if they want to upgrade to Choice Digital or any other digital services, then they would call the Activities Director who would explain to them their choices and, once they selected the choice, the Activities Director would either send the subscriber information to the MSO/dealer, or perhaps even submit it DirecTV to DirecTV in a capacity as recognized agent or representative of the MSO operator.

There is no way in Hell that an MSO operator could endure explaining to a bunch of senior citizens with declining mental faculties that they can have DirecTV STD in one room but just Choice Limited in another, or that, if they get DirecTV HD in one room, the other room loses all analog channels above the lifeline because of the frequency conflict (baseband starts at 250 MHz) AND they would lose the eighteen channels of UHF, on-channel broadcast HDTV that the MATV system receives from six cities but of which DirecTV only carries six, etc.

And if they ever got hold of the system operator's phone number, they would also call him whenever they forgot to put their TV on channel 3 to get the modulated output, or whenever they put the batteries backwards in their replacement remote and wiped out the programming, etc, etc.

[DirecTv Chicago]

One more thing. Suppose they just want HBO and Showtime, which cost around $14 each (I haven't checked lately) but they are satisfied with the analog Choice Limited. Can they set up an account just for those premiums and pay just for those two, or do they have to also pay the $19.99 for the digital upgrade, even if they don't wqant access to all of (Total) Coice.

I suspect that the best I could accomplish at this property is to advise the residents that if they want to upgrade to Choice Digital or any other digital services, then they would call the Activities Director who would explain to them their choices and, once they selected the choice, the Activities Director would either send the subscriber information to the MSO/dealer, or perhaps even submit it DirecTV to direcTV in a capacity as recognized agent or representative of the MSO operator.

There is no way in Hell that an MSO operator could endure explaining to a buch of senior citizens with declining mental faculties that they can have DirecTV STD in one room but just Choice Limited in another, or that, if they get DirecTV HD in one room, the other room loses all analog channels above the lifeline because of the frequency concflict (baseband starts at 250 MHz) AND they wold lose the eighteen channels of UHF, on-channel broadcast HDTV that the MATV system receives from six cities but of which DirecTV only carries six, etc.

And if they ever got hold of the system operator's phone number, they would also call him whenever they forgot to put their TV on channel 3 to get the modulated output, or whenever they put the batteries backwards in their replacement remote and wiped out the programming, etc, etc.


I have never had a building tenant do that but I suppose what you could do would be to setup the 48 system headend, purchase a 9.99 digitial package and then just order those channels specifically at an addtional $12.00 a month. Personally I would pay the additional $10.00 to get the extra 120 channels but that is their choice.

But the only way this would work is if you have a headend with a digital overlay to allow the SMATV to ride below the digital when the receiver was on. I guess you could then turn off the receiver and would pick up the headend channels when you want to watch something else. All theoretical of course but I don't see the benefit except saving a few bucks a month.

[AntAltMike]

The SMATV dealer who is trying to process this property's request for conversion to Choice Limited with digital overlay said that our L-band system of having one WB68 in each junction closet, enabling the residents to either fully support one HDTV tuner, or diplex it to support one SD receiver along with an extremely robust analog SMATV/broadcast HDTV lineup, was deemed unccceptable.

I'm told that the MSO will require an SWM system and "design" it for us when I give them building diagrams. In another forum, an MSO required that the DirecTV system had four ports per residential units, but I don't know if that project included analog SMATV.

A four SWM port per unit system in this complex, which also includes nine clusters of four cottage units each, would probably cost the better part of $100,000 to install. If I have to make four SWM ports available per apartment, I'm going to change this place over to DISH Network. This property will surely have under a hundred subs, with an average of maybe two tuners per property.

[DirecTv Chicago]

The SMATV dealer who is trying to process this property's request for conversion to Choice Limited with digital overlay said that our L-band system of having one WB68 in each junction closet, enabling the residents to either fully support one HDTV tuner, or diplex it to support one SD receiver along with an extremely robust analog SMATV/broadcast HDTV lineup.

I'm told that the MSO will require an SWM system and "design" it for us when I give them building diagrams. In another forum, an MSO required that the DirecTV system had four ports per residential units, but I don't know if that project included analog SMATV.

A four SWM port per unit system in this complex, which also includes nine clusters of four cottage units each, would probably cost the better part of $100,000 to install. If I have to make four SWM ports available per apartment, I'm going to change this place over to DISH Network. This property will surely have under a hundred subs, with an average of maybe two tuners per property.


I don't know the size of your location but $100,000 seems a little high to install the system. 3-4 channels per unit is not a bad estimate. In many of my buildings I have people who have up to 4 HD/DVR's among other receivers. Just make sure you document who is on what channel properly. That way when you start filling up you can easily move people around to fill up space.

[AntAltMike]

I don't know the size of your location but $100,000 seems a little high to install the system. 3-4 channels per unit is not a bad estimate. In many of my buildings I have people who have up to 4 HD/DVR's among other receivers. Just make sure you document who is on what channel properly. That way when you start filling up you can easily move people around to fill up space.

I'm figuring that to outfit the five, four story buildings there containing 340+ units with four SWM channels available per unit, I'd need to install 48 Chassis, maybe 180 SWMs, I'd have to arrange remote powering to each of 20 flush wall boxes since there is no 110v power source in those boxes, and I'd need to install five reception headends and trunklines (I haven't actually installed the headends and trunklines: I just physically delivered those parts a couple of months ago but told the manager that I'd wait until I knew the exact terms under which he might be operating this system before I made it operational).

Then, for the nine clusters of cottage buildings with four units in each, I'd need to install three AU9s, with possibly one or two being pole mounts because of trees, and I'd have to pull, by my count, a dozen coaxes through underground conduit to allow one junction box containing 6 SWMs in a chassis to each support the junction boxes on either side of it, and I'd have to have an electrician install outdoor 110v power to three outdoor boxes, because it would be impossible to remotely route DC into those boxes given the distances involved. Maybe I could do this all for $70,000 to $80,000, but I don't even employ the grunt manpower needed to do this as economically as a large company in a low wage area might.

But at present, I was planning on just installing the WB68 trunks in the five main buildings, probably charging the customer about $1,200 each for a minimal system consisting of a powered polarity locker, Sonora AGC trunkline amps, and a simple tapped trunks (-9dB on top floor, --6bB on next, two-way splitter on next), and leaving it up to us to "wing it" on the cottages on an as-needed basis. That would serve this customer very well for about $6,000.

If DirecTV will approve this for inclusion into their program that lets subscribers bump themselves up to Choice for $19.99, then they will make a lot of money off this, but if not, since this customer owns its own headend and distribution network, we could swap those headend receivers with DISH Network receivers and I could install DP34s for about the same price, or DP44s, which would up the cost of the job somewhat but would have some additional benefits, and all they might "lose" is access to Sunday Ticket, which no one there has even asked for.

There are places where it may be to DirecTV's benefit to hold out and demand that an installation be built in the way that best serves DirecTV's perceived future interests, but there are also projects that will not fly if forced to incur the cost of that substantial a system, and this place is clearly the latter. This is an assisted living community with a tremendous free SAMTV system that includes 11 local broadcast analogs, 42 DirecTV bulk cable channels and 18 local broadcast HDTV channels, so demand for digital upgrades is going to be well under half of what you get in a cosmopolitan apartment complex, and maybe closer to one quarter of the demand.

[DirecTv Chicago]

I'm figuring that to outfit the five, four story buildings there containing 340+ units with four SWM channels available per unit, I'd need to install 48 Chassis, maybe 180 SWMs, I'd have to arrange remote powering to each of 20 flush wall boxes since there is no 110v power source in those boxes, and I'd need to install five reception headends and trunklines (I haven't actually installed the headends and trunklines: I just physically delivered those parts a couple of months ago but told the manager that I'd wait until I knew the exact terms under which he might be operating this system before I made it operational).

Then, for the nine clusters of cottage buildings with four units in each, I'd need to install three AU9s, with possibly one or two being pole mounts because of trees, and I'd have to pull, by my count, a dozen coaxes through underground conduit to allow one junction box containing 6 SWMs in a chassis to each support the junction boxes on either side of it, and I'd have to have an electrician install outdoor 110v power to three outdoor boxes, because it would be impossible to remotely route DC into those boxes given the distances involved. Maybe I could do this all for $70,000 to $80,000, but I don't even employ the grunt manpower needed to do this as economically as a large company in a low wage area might.

But at present, I was planning on just installing the WB68 trunks in the five main buildings, probably charging the customer about $1,200 each for a minimal system consisting of a powered polarity locker, Sonora AGC trunkline amps, and a simple tapped trunks (-9dB on top floor, --6bB on next, two-way splitter on next), and leaving it up to us to "wing it" on the cottages on an as-needed basis. That would serve this customer very well for about $6,000.

If DirecTV will approve this for inclusion into their program that lets subscribers bump themselves up to Choice for $19.99, then they will make a lot of money off this, but if not, since this customer owns its own headend and distribution network, we could swap those headend receivers with DISH Network receivers and I could install DP34s for about the same price, or DP44s, which would up the cost of the job somewhat but would have some additional benefits, and all they might "lose" is access to Sunday Ticket, which no one there has even asked for.

There are places where it may be to DirecTV's benefit to hold out and demand that an installation be built in the way that best serves DirecTV's perceived future interests, but there are also projects that will not fly if forced to incur the cost of that substantial a system, and this place is clearly the latter. This is an assisted living community with a tremendous free SAMTV system that includes 11 local broadcast analogs, 42 DirecTV bulk cable channels and 18 local broadcast HDTV channels, so demand for digital upgrades is going to be well under half of what you get in a cosmopolitan apartment complex, and maybe closer to one quarter of the demand.

If the demand is going to be so limited why build out the entire network? Why not just add SWM's as needed and run two dishes?

For many of the sat 101 buildings I buildings I plan on leaving that system up so that those who could care less about HD not be forced to shift over to the MFH2 and can keep their old receivers. Now a building with a headend system might be a little different.

[AntAltMike]

If the demand is going to be so limited why build out the entire network? Why not just add SWM's as needed and run two dishes?...

At the moment, I only know that one operator with whom I occasionally correspond said that he had to have 4 SWM ports per unit for his system to be approved for inclusion in the MDU digital program. When I submit the building drawings to my master MSO, I'll know for certain just waht they require to be prebuilt. You may be aware, for example, that under the standard Sat A requirements, the backbone had to include available ports equal to 40% of the home runs per floor, with the means to build any junction up to 100% on two days notice.

I don't know what can reasonably be worked for cost allocation of the SWMs to the residents. I mean, since the system operator is getting a very small percentage of the $20 per month that a standard upgrade generates, it would take him well over a decade to get the parts cost of a single SWM and power supply back from one residential installtion, and if he tried to pass that cost along to the subscriber, he'd go from being in the satellite programming business into the arguing business.

[AntAltMike]

I did the drop count today and have 362 drops coming off 20, flush mounted "D" boxes that are two feet square by 4" deep. They each presently have three, 8-port hardline taps in them, and they are connected to one another with two straight 1-1/4" ID conduits, that are close to vacant.

Each box services anywhere from 12 to 24 home run lines.So my question to whomever has had their hands on an FMC6 chassis is, can I possibly stuff this into a 4" deep box?

My other challenge will be length. The maximum hallway length from a junction box to the most distant apartment front door is 280 feet on the longest building, 260 on the second longest and 225 on the third longest. Figure ten feet from the box to the hallway ceilling midpoint, and maybe 30 feet from the hallway to the first wallplate (most apartments will have three plates/two bedrooms).

So my worst case apartments will be half a dozen apartment's wiring traversing 280' hallway plus 10' hallway-to-junction, plus 30' hallway-to-unit splitter, plus maybe another 30' unit splitter-to-bedroom plus the three way splitter, plus diplexers. My worst case will be 350 feet plus a three-way plus 2 diplexers. I'll be dropping maybe 35dB or more over that length, and I won't be able to to insert line extender amps at any coax midpoint, so the amplification will have to be either post-loss or pre-loss.

What are the power levels coming out of an SWM? Do they have AGC? I might have to leave the junction box at -20dBm to service the most distant apartments.

In another thread, someone said that there was a 2.3 MHz return channel. If that is so, is there a line extender with a return path?

I guess I will be powering these units from just above the fourth floor. If I can't fit an FMC chassis in the cabinets I have, then can I power three SWM's off a three output, diode steered splitter using one of the two power supplies that an FMC6 chassis uses?

[jash]

I did the drop count today and have 362 drops coming off 20, flush mounted "D" boxes that are two feet square by 4" deep. They each presently have three, 8-port hardline taps in them, and they are connected to one another with two straight 1-1/4" ID conduits, that are close to vacant.

Each box services anywhere from 12 to 24 home run lines.So my question to whomever has had their hands on an FMC6 chassis is, can I possibly stuff this into a 4" deep box?

My other challenge will be length. The maximum hallway length from a junction box to the most distant apartment front door is 280 feet on the longest building, 260 on the second longest and 225 on the third longest. Figure ten feet from the box to the hallway ceilling midpoint, and maybe 30 feet from the hallway to the first wallplate (most apartments will have three plates/two bedrooms).

So my worst case apartments will be half a dozen apartment's wiring traversing 280' hallway plus 10' hallway-to-junction, plus 30' hallway-to-unit splitter, plus maybe another 30' unit splitter-to-bedroom plus the three way splitter, plus diplexers. My worst case will be 350 feet plus a three-way plus 2 diplexers. I'll be dropping maybe 35dB or more over that length, and I won't be able to to insert line extender amps at any coax midpoint, so the amplification will have to be either post-loss or pre-loss.

What are the power levels coming out of an SWM? Do they have AGC? I might have to leave the junction box at -20dBm to service the most distant apartments.

In another thread, someone said that there was a 2.3 MHz return channel. If that is so, is there a line extender with a return path?

I guess I will be powering these units from just above the fourth floor. If I can't fit an FMC chassis in the cabinets I have, then can I power three SWM's off a three output, diode steered splitter using one of the two power supplies that an FMC6 chassis uses?

hi mike,

i applaud your openness and candor in planning your build out. any idea what an operator will spend to upgrade a 233 unit complex from mfh1 to mfh2?

thanks.

[AntAltMike]

...any idea what an operator will spend to upgrade a 233 unit complex from mfh1 to mfh2?...

Not much more than the cost of SWMs and the FMC frames.

The photos of MHF1 modules I've seen had two parallel rows of output ports. One row was the "through" paths to sustain the trunk to the next successive MFH1, and the other was labeled, "reserved for future use". The SWM or frame simply connects to those ports

[DirecTv Chicago]

Not much more than the cost of SWMs and the FMC frames.

The photos of MHF1 modules I've seen had two parallel rows of output ports. One row was the "through" paths to sustain the trunk to the next successive MFH1, and the other was labeled, "reserved for future use". The SWM or frame simply connects to those ports


MFH2 is the same backbone as MFH1 with just different switches. No need for additional cabling, just swap out the dish for $100 - $150 and change out the switches and basically have your system right there. A few more changes needed but thats the jist of it.

[dave29]

I did the drop count today and have 362 drops coming off 20, flush mounted "D" boxes that are two feet square by 4" deep. They each presently have three, 8-port hardline taps in them, and they are connected to one another with two straight 1-1/4" ID conduits, that are close to vacant.

Each box services anywhere from 12 to 24 home run lines.So my question to whomever has had their hands on an FMC6 chassis is, can I possibly stuff this into a 4" deep box?

My other challenge will be length. The maximum hallway length from a junction box to the most distant apartment front door is 280 feet on the longest building, 260 on the second longest and 225 on the third longest. Figure ten feet from the box to the hallway ceilling midpoint, and maybe 30 feet from the hallway to the first wallplate (most apartments will have three plates/two bedrooms).

So my worst case apartments will be half a dozen apartment's wiring traversing 280' hallway plus 10' hallway-to-junction, plus 30' hallway-to-unit splitter, plus maybe another 30' unit splitter-to-bedroom plus the three way splitter, plus diplexers. My worst case will be 350 feet plus a three-way plus 2 diplexers. I'll be dropping maybe 35dB or more over that length, and I won't be able to to insert line extender amps at any coax midpoint, so the amplification will have to be either post-loss or pre-loss.

What are the power levels coming out of an SWM? Do they have AGC? I might have to leave the junction box at -20dBm to service the most distant apartments.

In another thread, someone said that there was a 2.3 MHz return channel. If that is so, is there a line extender with a return path?

I guess I will be powering these units from just above the fourth floor. If I can't fit an FMC chassis in the cabinets I have, then can I power three SWM's off a three output, diode steered splitter using one of the two power supplies that an FMC6 chassis uses?


-the fmc6 will not fit into a 4'' deep box
-i think the chassis uses different power inserters than the swm's
-i know they make a directv approved splitter to power 2 swm's off of a standard PI
-thats about all i can help you with, sorry

[hatchet]

If I may butt in here, I have a n00b question that I feel like you guys can answer once and for all.

I live in a neighborhood of single-family homes. Currently, we get basic analog cable though DirecPath which I understand to be DirecTV supplied to MDU's (typically condos/apartments/townhomes). The fee is included in my monthly HOA dues.

DirecPath says I can have a receiver installed/set-up in my home and for an additional $19.99, I can upgrade my current line-up to the Total Choice package, something like 150 channels. I was also told the Total Choice Plus package of 180 channels is available but I forget how much it would be. DirecPath told me once the receiver was set up, I could call DirecTV and have the premium channels added.

So, the DirecPath installer comes by, doesn't see a dish on the house and says I need a dish in order for the receivers to work. An obvious contradiction to what DirecPath says and to what appears you guys are saying here.

I'm sorry to hi-jack here but in memory of the great Fox Mulder, "the truth is out there" and I'm trying to find it. If I go to a BB/CC B&M and buy a $99 receiver, bring it home, hook it up and then call DirecTV to activate it, will this work? Or is there or could there be some sort of block/firewall on the HOA setup to prevent this?

Just looking for answers, thanks for the help!

[AntAltMike]

You need to call Directpath, confirm that they have enrolled your building in a digital MDU program, and have them send out another guy.

If you instead had called DirecTV for the installation and they co-incidentally called DirectPath as one of their contract installers for residential installation, then an installation so-contracted would not have enrolled you into the $19.99 Choice upgrade program.

If you buy your own receiver and install it yourself, it may or may not work, depending on how the installation company has connected your homerun coax, but even if it does, you'll be paying full-fare for the subscription.

The price differential between packages remains constant, so if Choice Plus, with no specials, costs $5 more than Choice, then the $19.99 per month digital upgrade monthly bill becomes $24.99

[DirecTv Chicago]

He pretty much sums it up with the above post. Based on the pricing they gave you of $19.99 to receive Total Choice. It sounds as though you have Total Choice Limited, anywhere from 48 to 60 channels directly through your coax connection by a headend system.
Is this correct?

Next you need to determine who your system operator is, bascially who do you call if your service goes out. They will let you know whether or not you can setup additional receivers. They would come out and in most cases just move your connection in the telecom room to a multiswitch allowing you to receiving the digital signal. All of course dependent on the type of system they have installed.

Anytime DirecTV comes out or schedules someone to come out they are only equipped to handle single dish single home situations. That is why they were not able to complete the installation.

You also need to go through your system operator to get your discounted rate. If you plug in a receiver and it happens to work, when you call to activate you will get the retail rate of $40-$50.00 and not the $19.99 you should receive, as the CSR will not know of the program.

[hatchet]

It sounds as though you have Total Choice Limited, anywhere from 48 to 60 channels directly through your coax connection by a headend system. Is this correct?

Correct sir...I think we get somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 channels, all through a single coax run to the side of the house.

I don't know who the operator is, all I know to do is call 866-430-PATH which I understand to be one of two call centers, one in the Phillipines and one in NC. They are the ones telling me I can hook up the receivers and I have spoken to 4-5 CSR's. If they wouldn't have been so insistent it was possible, I would have never scheduled the install. I have been trying to speak with the installers supervisor but I keep missing his phone call and he says there is no local number for me to reach him. The installer was definitely with DirecPath as advertised on his truck and shirt.

What is even more funny is the installer was leaving my house to go to another install only to have to tell that customer the same thing, no dish, no receiver.

My new plasma is getting hung on the wall tomorrow. I'm going to take that time to make some phone calls. What stinks is I already re-wired my connections on the wall. When I thought I was getting a receiver, I wired for two HDMI hookups, one for the receiver and one for my Blu-Ray player. I realized I was only going to get SD channels and only the local HD's. I wanted the HD receiver to simplify my in-wall HDMI hook-ups. Now, I re-wired everything and fashioned my own HDMI/coax plates for hookup. Once the TV is hung, It won't be as easy to get to if I have to go back to the dual HDMI.

It's a shame it's such a process to get decent programming!

[DirecTv Chicago]

What type of location is it? Condo, Apartment, Townhomes, residential?

They are a sneaky little company, I've dealt with them in the past. You have a headend so you have a dish somewhere on site. You need to find out where that is and if there is a telecom room that holds all the multiswitches. Then contact DirectPath and request a technician that is familar with the building. That may be hard if you are calling the phillipines (this is why I hate outsourcing). When the tech comes out show him where the dish is and where that room is. Now the issue is getting someone familar with MDU locations not general DirecTV installations.

Now they could also be doing a master headend to a central location off site and fiber to your location. Expensive to do that, so doubtful. My other suggestion would be to check with your neighbors as someone is bound to have an upgraded receiver. The 50 channels that they provide in their package is usually not enough for the average viewer.

[hatchet]

What type of location is it? Condo, Apartment, Townhomes, residential?

Chicago...good morning from Miami!

I am in a residential neighborhood of single-family homes, and not patio homes, we're talking 4,5,6 bedrooms. DirecPath now serves our community and another of similar sized homes, so between the two communities, I would say 1,500 homes total. We get cable (Total Choice limited as best I can tell) and Internet. The Internet is a shared connection at around 756Kb speed, slowest by far. The Internet is upgradeable as well as the cable, at least what I've been told therein lies my dilemma.

When I first moved in two years ago, DirecPath did not exist. The cable company was an unknown company basically ran by a husband and wife. The husband was the on-call tech and the wife answered the phones. I had the tech out a couple of times for signal quality issues and that is how I learned of the community's setup.

There is a large (although not 1980's size) dish just outside the front gate of our property. Beside that, there is a shack. Inside the shack, are the 60 some recievers each tuned individually to a channel we receive as part of our basic HOA included line up.

I initially inquired about getting my cable upgraded so I could receive HBO and the like but I was told they were not currently issuing STB's and to wait. I did and several months later, we were being serviced by DirecPath. When I started inquiring about cable upgrades, I was informed I would need a dish. Since this was never mentioned or even heard of during the construction phase, I did what anyone would have done and had the house wired with an abundance of cable jacks for just that, cable not satellite.

I actually have a call-in to the supervisor for the installations since the only way to reach him is through the call center. Somebody doesn't know what they are talking about and it's either the call center or the installer. At this point, I'm not sure who to believe!

[DirecTv Chicago]

Chicago...good morning from Miami!

I am in a residential neighborhood of single-family homes, and not patio homes, we're talking 4,5,6 bedrooms. DirecPath now serves our community and another of similar sized homes, so between the two communities, I would say 1,500 homes total. We get cable (Total Choice limited as best I can tell) and Internet. The Internet is a shared connection at around 756Kb speed, slowest by far. The Internet is upgradeable as well as the cable, at least what I've been told therein lies my dilemma.

When I first moved in two years ago, DirecPath did not exist. The cable company was an unknown company basically ran by a husband and wife. The husband was the on-call tech and the wife answered the phones. I had the tech out a couple of times for signal quality issues and that is how I learned of the community's setup.

There is a large (although not 1980's size) dish just outside the front gate of our property. Beside that, there is a shack. Inside the shack, are the 60 some recievers each tuned individually to a channel we receive as part of our basic HOA included line up.

I initially inquired about getting my cable upgraded so I could receive HBO and the like but I was told they were not currently issuing STB's and to wait. I did and several months later, we were being serviced by DirecPath. When I started inquiring about cable upgrades, I was informed I would need a dish. Since this was never mentioned or even heard of during the construction phase, I did what anyone would have done and had the house wired with an abundance of cable jacks for just that, cable not satellite.

I actually have a call-in to the supervisor for the installations since the only way to reach him is through the call center. Somebody doesn't know what they are talking about and it's either the call center or the installer. At this point, I'm not sure who to believe!


Okay, that shack is the headend and where all of the switches more than likely would be. Assuming they have the right equipment they should be able to set you up through there.

If not or they refuse to then you can by law install your own dish. Your HOA will fight you but they can not legally stop you as long as you are within a few guidlines. The only issue you may run into with DirecTV is if they have what they call a restriction flag on the property. Basically means that only DirectPath can service and no other company, including DirecTV.

[texasbrit]

In another thread, someone said that there was a 2.3 MHz return channel. If that is so, is there a line extender with a return path?

I queried this post but did not get a reply. As far as I know the SWMs do not use a 2.3MHz return channel (I posted an SWM frequency map, including the return channel) so I am not sure what this is meant to be.

[AntAltMike]

I queried this post but did not get a reply. As far as I know the SWMs do not use a 2.3MHz return channel (I posted an SWM frequency map, including the return channel) so I am not sure what this is meant to be.


The post of yours I saw just listed 9 center frequencies, spaced at 102MHz intervals. I believe that the receiver self test show nine channels, so that means to me that they are downstream channels.

How does the SWM communicate upstream? The DiSEqC and proprietary DISH network protocols take a 22KHz tone and chop it into low baud rate communications streams that I think are around 1,200 bits per second. I think the SWM needs a more robust upstream channel than a chopped up 22 KHz carrier could develop.

Tomorrow, I might be going to a dealer's shop at which he said he had a couple of SWMs set up. I will insert a cable TV highpass filter and DC voltage block in the SWM line and see if it jams up essential communication between the receivers and the SWM. Unfortunately, that won't tell me if the upstream communication was at 22KHz or 2.3 MHz, but failure to communicate would exclude the possibility that the ninth channel is an upstream channel.

[texasbrit]

The post of yours I saw just listed 9 center frequencies, spaced at 102MHz intervals. I believe that the receiver self test show nine channels, so that means to me that they are downstream channels.

How does the SWM communicate upstream? The DiSEqC and proprietary DISH network protocols take a 22KHz tone and chop it into low baud rate communications streams that I think are around 1,200 bits per second. I think the SWM needs a more robust upstream channel than a chopped up 22 KHz carrier could develop.

Tomorrow, I might be going to a dealer's shop at which he said he had a couple of SWMs set up. I will insert a cable TV highpass filter and DC voltage block in the SWM line and see if it jams up essential communication between the receivers and the SWM. Unfortunately, that won't tell me if the upstream communication was at 22KHz or 2.3 MHz, but failure to communicate would exclude the possibility that the ninth channel is an upstream channel.

None of the posts I have seen on the SWM in "domestic" use (mainly by the people doing field tests) have shown any problems using standard diplexers of various manufacturers, both for the SWM5 (with two diplexers, one diplexing "on" and another "off") and for the SWM8 (one diplexer, just diplexing "off").
I am just using standard, cheap RCA diplexers 40-2150 MHz with mine, without any problems with either SWM communication or the OTA signal.
I just found in my old "favorites" the original patent application back in 2006, that revealed the existence of the FTM systems , I posted it then: see http://www.freshpatents.com/System-architecture-for-control-and-signal-distribution-on-coaxial-cable-dt20061005ptan20060225100.php?type=description If you are willing to dig through it it does make interesting reading, especially now with the SWM installed and working. There is reference to the signalling between the IRDs and the SWM being modified DiSeqC at 22/88Khz and being half-duplex on a single channel, as far as I can tell.
I will be interested in your comments!

[AntAltMike]

None of the posts I have seen on the SWM in "domestic" use (mainly by the people doing field tests) have shown any problems using standard diplexers of various manufacturers, both for the SWM5 (with two diplexers, one diplexing "on" and another "off") and for the SWM8 (one diplexer, just diplexing "off").
I am just using standard, cheap RCA diplexers 40-2150 MHz with mine, without any problems with either SWM communication or the OTA signal.
I just found in my old "favorites" the original patent application back in 2006, that revealed the existence of the FTM systems , I posted it then: see http://www.freshpatents.com/System-architecture-for-control-and-signal-distribution-on-coaxial-cable-dt20061005ptan20060225100.php?type=description If you are willing to dig through it it does make interesting reading, especially now with the SWM installed and working. There is reference to the signalling between the IRDs and the SWM being modified DiSeqC at 22/88Khz and being half-duplex on a single channel, as far as I can tell.
I will be interested in your comments!
Someone had posted that link at DBSForums (http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70223&highlight=patent) back in December of 2006, but traffic over there was so low that there wasn't much of a discussion of it.

From the linked Patent Summary

[0144] The 13/18 VDC and 22/88 kHz protocol described herein is only one protocol that can be used within the scope of the present invention. Other protocols, e.g., ethernet, or other custom designed protocols, can be used without departing from the scope of the present invention. The 88 kHz signal (DiSeqC 1.0 uses 22 kHz) is just one example of a customized signal; other protocols, other bit patterns, other commands can be used instead...

Conclusion

[0147]...The foregoing description of the preferred embodiment of the invention has been presented for the purposes of illustration and description. It is not intended to be exhaustive or to limit the invention to the precise form disclosed. Many modifications and variations are possible...

If the SWM has six input channels with standard, 40 transponder plans (24 Ka, 16 Ku) on four of them, and sixteen on each of the other two, "flexiport" inputs, the receiver would have to call the SWM and request one of nearly 200 unique transponder addresses, which the SWM would then tune, frequency shift and route to the appropriate intermediate frequency downstream channel. If I were a computer guy, I might be able to develop an informed opinion of how much data would have to be exchanged between the receiver and SWM to do this, but unfortunately, when I had a chance to get in on the "ground floor" of the computer field back in the mid 1960s, I concluded that computers were a fad, like the hula hoop, so I let the opportunity go by and am still waiting for the next big "thing" to come by, so I'll have to leave that estimate for others here.

A 40-806/860 MHz diplexer band is the pass band of the cable/terrestrial path. Such diplexers always work well with off air but often impede cable modem upstream signals which I have seen as low as 10.5 MHz, but there are inexpensive diplexers whose cable/off-air pass band begins at 5MHz, so those will pass all known upstream cable TV signals.

The 950-2,150 plus DC, "satellite" path has been proven to reliably pass the 22KHz signals along with the DC, and so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch for it to also pass 88 KHz signals if that is what is being used here.

[AntAltMike]

Here is an analysis of DISH Network's proprietary switching protocol, developed by Kevin Timmerman, who visits various DBS satellite forums:
http://www.compendiumarcana.com/dbsindex.aspx?content=logger

This may give some of you some ideal of what the capabilities of a 22 KHz tone control system were, back in the early 2000s.

[texasbrit]

Someone had posted that link at DBSForums (http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70223&highlight=patent) back in December of 2006, but traffic over there was so low that there wasn't much of a discussion of it.

From the linked Patent Summary



If the SWM has six input channels with 40 standard transponder plans (40 Ka, 16 Ku) on four of them, and sixteen on each of the other two, "flexiport" inputs, the receiver would have to call the SWM and request one of nearly 200 unique transponder addresses, which the SWM would then tune, frequency shift and route to the appropriate intermediate frequency downstream channel. If I were a computer guy, I might be able to develop an informed opinion of how much data would have to be exchanged between the receiver and SWM to do this, but unfortunately, when I had a chance to get in on the "ground floor" of the computer field back in the mid 1960s, I concluded that computers were a fad, like the hula hoop, so I let the opportunity go by and am still waiting for the next big "thing" to come by, so I'll have to leave that estimate for others here.

A 40-806/860 MHz diplexer band is the pass band of the cable/terrestrial path. Such diplexers always work well with off air but often impede cable modem upstream signals which I have seen as low as 10.5 MHz, but there are inexpensive diplexers whose cable/off-air pass band begins at 5MHz, so those will pass all known upstream cable TV signals.

The 950-2,150 plus DC, "satellite" path has been proven to reliably pass the 22KHz signals along with the DC, and so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch for it to also pass 88 KHz signals if that is what is being used here.
I had posted the patent application also back in 2006 and was surprised very few people seemed to be interested. The only responses seemed to be from some of the MDU people :) :)
200 transponder addresses is not very many, that's only 8 bits of data. Even if the system is designed to be expandable to, say, 15 satellites each with up to 63 transponders, that is only 10 bits of transponder address data.

[vspede]

I'm presently the "hardware guy" for a 400 unit MDU that has bulk SMATV. They are paying about $8.50 per drop per month for the programming they are getting. The property manager would like the contact converted to Choice Limited, whereby the bulk price goes up to $13.99 per drop per month, but then, if any resident wants to have his service upgraded to Choice, he gets a receiver box and is additionally billed $19.99 per month rather than $49.99, directly by DirecTV.

The dealer of record is concerned that if this property is converted to Choice Limited, he will be the one stuck explaining programming packages to the cusotmers, and if so, it might be too much of a headache to endure for the modest increase in commission he'd enjoy.

I told him that I think the residents would call DirecTV directly, they would be responsible for educating the customer and explaining the packages and then he would be notified to install a receiver in apt #XXX at street address #YYY. Can anyone confirm that that is how it works?

I don't know the specifics about your building or how they want to do it but this is my experience with MDU and Directv. I posted here earlier before.

Our building is a 32 floor high rise in Chicago and we're currently serviced by MDU.

With our contract coming up in June, we sent out notices not to renew and we brought 2 System operators and Comcast to the table to negotiate it out. This way we get the best deal for our residents.

We also put out a survey to the residents on what they would prefer, package wise, etc. and a link to Directv to see what packages they offer and what bulk rates etc.

Currently the price is floating for us: Total Choice for all residents = $25.

No Maintenance fees, etc. So flat $25 per unit.

Hope this helps.

[DirecTv Chicago]

I don't know the specifics about your building or how they want to do it but this is my experience with MDU and Directv. I posted here earlier before.

Our building is a 32 floor high rise in Chicago and we're currently serviced by MDU.

With our contract coming up in June, we sent out notices not to renew and we brought 2 System operators and Comcast to the table to negotiate it out. This way we get the best deal for our residents.

We also put out a survey to the residents on what they would prefer, package wise, etc. and a link to Directv to see what packages they offer and what bulk rates etc.

Currently the price is floating for us: Total Choice for all residents = $25.

No Maintenance fees, etc. So flat $25 per unit.

Hope this helps.

Dependent on the demographics of the building Total Choice Bulk from DirecTV is almost always the best fit both economically and system wise for the MDU market.

Comcast's retail rate for the comparable package is usually closer to $60.00, however I am not sure what their bulk rate usually comes out to.