$250 deposit for a satellite dish at our apt?

[gnahc79]

I can understand the requirement for a deposit if a dish could potentially fall from a rail install 3rd floor apt, swing down 10 ft, and crash through a 2nd floor window, but for me:

a) we have renter's insurance, we're required to have renter's insurance
b) I'm on the ground floor
c) We're required to use a tripod, which is fine with me.

My directv install is equivalent to having a potted shrub/short tree sitting out on our patio area. Well, reinforced with a tripod :). I don't have to pay a $250 deposit for plants on the patio. Heck I don't need a deposit for my large Weber gas grill. I plan to have the tripod secured with the pole in a bucket of sand. If that is knocked down the worst it'll do is scratch the concrete. There's no windows within 'striking distance' either.

sigh...mini-rant. We already put down a $700 base deposit and additional $600 for our dog. I'm not exactly thrilled about having another $250 frozen from me.

[Earl Bonovich]

Who is charging you the fee?

[HDTVsportsfan]

Sounds like the management of the apartment complex.

[gnahc79]

oops, yeah it's the apt complex.

[curt8403]

oops, yeah it's the apt complex.


askem about if ya can just put a pole in a 5 gallon plastic bucket filled with cement. do you have a south facing area that is exclusively yours. if so, tell em you are gonna sig the FCC on em. you can do that

[HDTVsportsfan]

I don't know dude. Sounds like your going to have to play by there rules. Luckily I haven't had to deal with an apt. complex or HOA. But again, there ball...there rules.

[HDTVsportsfan]

askem about if ya can just put a pole in a 5 gallon plastic bucket filled with cement. do you have a south facing area that is exclusively yours. if so, tell em you are gonna sig the FCC on em. you can do that

I don't think that would help. They're not saying he can't install it.

[curt8403]

I don't think that would help. They're not saying he can't install it.

OP should give them this, could not hurt

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

[dgordo]

They can do this as long as they can say that the fee doesnt unreasonably increases the cost of having a dish. Im not sure if the FCC has elaborated what amount unreasonably increases the cost of having a dish. My guess is that $250 would not meet that amount especially if you get the money back.

[curt8403]

They can do this as long as they can say that the fee doesnt unreasonably increases the cost of having a dish. Im not sure if the FCC has elaborated what amount unreasonably increases the cost of having a dish. My guess is that $250 would not meet that amount especially if you get the money back.

and an exclusive private area, they cannot do anything at all

[JLucPicard]

How are you going to go about connecting the cables from the dish to your equipment?

Oh, drill through the wall? Maybe that has something to do with the deposit for having a dish installed.

[phat78boy]

How are you going to go about connecting the cables from the dish to your equipment?

Oh, drill through the wall? Maybe that has something to do with the deposit for having a dish installed.

A lot of installers have the "flat" RG6 cables that you can run under a door or sliding glass door. No need for drilling most the time.

[gnahc79]

How are you going to go about connecting the cables from the dish to your equipment?

Oh, drill through the wall? Maybe that has something to do with the deposit for having a dish installed.

No, we're not allowed to drill anything. We're running the cables under our sliding door or window. The distance from the dish to the a/v rack is 8 ft.

[TedBarrett]

move

[Blackz06]

When I use to live in an apartment complex the D* installer drilled small holes and screwed the tripod into the concrete patio, then used some type of glue to really make sure it was sturdy. Trust me, that thing would come down in a hurricane.

You should also ask if you would get your deposit back, if so might be worth not hassling over. How big is the complex? If it's a big one, just do it, they might not even notice. If they do, eh, here's your $250.

[Lee L]

They can do this as long as they can say that the fee doesnt unreasonably increases the cost of having a dish. Im not sure if the FCC has elaborated what amount unreasonably increases the cost of having a dish. My guess is that $250 would not meet that amount especially if you get the money back.


Everything I have read says the FCC basically considers any amount beyond what a typical installation would cost is excessive. I am fairly sure that $250 would be deemed excessive.

[Stuart Sweet]

Not quite sure of the law here but IMO a company should have a fair right to set their policies providing they are legal and stated up front.

[dgordo]

Everything I have read says the FCC basically considers any amount beyond what a typical installation would cost is excessive. I am fairly sure that $250 would be deemed excessive.

That seems to only apply to permit fees, I don't see a declaratory ruling that addresses deposits.

[dgordo]

and an exclusive private area, they cannot do anything at all


The rule was created to address restrictions in exclusive private use areas.

"The rule only applies to restrictions on property where the viewer has an ownership or leasehold interest and exclusive use or control."

[warriorking]

Q: What is an unreasonable expense?

A: Any requirement to pay a fee to the local authority for a permit to be allowed to install an antenna would be unreasonable because such permits are generally prohibited. It may also be unreasonable for a local government, community association or landlord to require a viewer to incur additional costs associated with installation. Things to consider in determining the reasonableness of any costs imposed include: (1) the cost of the equipment and services, and (2) whether there are similar requirements for comparable objects, such as air conditioning units or trash receptacles. For example, restrictions cannot require that expensive landscaping screen relatively unobtrusive DBS antennas. A requirement to paint an antenna so that it blends into the background against which it is mounted would likely be acceptable, provided it will not interfere with reception or impose unreasonable costs.

Looks to me that they cannot charge the Fee....It would be beyond the cost of the install.....Not a lawyer however so I would contact or Email the FCC offices about the fee.....

Q: Who do I call if my town, community association or landlord is enforcing an invalid restriction?

A: Call the Federal Communications Commission at (888) CALLFCC (888-225-5322), which is a toll-free number, or 202-418-7096, which is not toll-free. Some assistance may also be available from the direct broadcast satellite company, broadband radio service provider, television broadcast station, or fixed wireless company whose service is desired.

[dgordo]

Q: What is an unreasonable expense?

A: Any requirement to pay a fee to the local authority for a permit to be allowed to install an antenna would be unreasonable because such permits are generally prohibited. It may also be unreasonable for a local government, community association or landlord to require a viewer to incur additional costs associated with installation. Things to consider in determining the reasonableness of any costs imposed include: (1) the cost of the equipment and services, and (2) whether there are similar requirements for comparable objects, such as air conditioning units or trash receptacles. For example, restrictions cannot require that expensive landscaping screen relatively unobtrusive DBS antennas. A requirement to paint an antenna so that it blends into the background against which it is mounted would likely be acceptable, provided it will not interfere with reception or impose unreasonable costs.

Looks to me that they cannot charge the Fee....It would be beyond the cost of the install.....Not a lawyer however so I would contact or Email the FCC offices about the fee.....


Like I was saying, that arent calling it a fee, its a deposit. Im not sure if that matters or not since the FCC has not decided.

[warriorking]

So long as he meets the criteria imposed by the FCC I doubt they will consider a deposit not a fee , basically if he dosen't pay the deposit he can't install the Dish, I think the FCC took that into consideration .I would just call the listed number and talk to the FCC in person.....

[Lee L]

I guess to me the point is if they require a deposit for other itmes outside the unit, such as grills or flower pots, which the OP stated they do not.

Best option at this point is to call the number. They will actually help you on the phone from reports I have seen, which makes then unlike most government agencies. ;)

[gnahc79]

Called the FCC, I don't know if I explained my issue clearly enough, but the rep said that she doesn't know :(. There's no restriction for requiring a deposit if the dish is mounted on the rail, I think she said for any non-exclusive area. When I asked about having it on a tripod in the patio area on the ground floor, the rep said she didn't know "for my specific situation". I'll probably call again next week to try to explain my situation more clearly.

portion of the lease agreement pertaining to the deposit. Again, no additional deposit required for my grill. They told me that renter's insurance covers that. Well if so why not the dish? I'll bring this up with the apt mgmt when they bring it up with me. There's lots of other tenants with rail drilled installs up on the 2nd and 3rd floor.

9. SECURITY DEPOSIT INCREASE. Your security deposit (in paragraph 7 of your Lease, where allowed by law) is increased by an additional sum of $ (see community specific policies for amount) in order to help protect us against possible repair costs, damages, or failure to remove at time of move-out. This increased security deposit does not imply a right to drill or otherwise alter your apartment or the Premises.


full wording of the lease agreement for anyone interested:

SATELLITE DISHES

You have a limited right to install a satellite dish or receiving antenna within your leased space. We are allowed to impose reasonable restrictions relating to such installation. You are required to comply with these restrictions as a condition of installing such equipment. This provision contains the restrictions that you and we agree to follow.

1. NUMBER AND SIZE. You may install only one satellite dish or receiving antenna within your leased space. A satellite dish may not exceed 3.3 feet in diameter. An antenna may receive but not transmit signals.

2. LOCATION. Location of the satellite dish or antenna is limited to your leased space, namely: (1) inside your dwelling, or (2) in an area outside your dwelling but within your sole control such as your balcony, patio, yard, etc. Installation is not permitted on any parking area, roof, exterior wall, window, windowsill, fence or common area, or in any area that other residents are allowed to use. A satellite dish or antenna may not extend beyond the vertical and horizontal space that is leased to you for your exclusive use (e.g., the satellite dish or receiving antenna may not extend beyond the balcony railing). Think of it this way: if the building were to be wrapped in “plastic wrap”, and you were to affix a satellite dish to your balcony railing or otherwise place it on your balcony, no portion of the satellite dish or receiving antenna may come in contact with the plastic wrap.

3. SAFETY AND NON-INTERFERENCE. Your installation: (1) must comply with reasonable safety standards; (2) may not interfere with our cable, telephone or electrical systems or those of neighboring properties; (3) may not be connected to our telecommunication systems; and (4) may not be connected to our electrical system except by plugging into a 110-volt duplex receptacle. If the satellite dish or antenna is placed in a permitted outside area, it must be safely secured by one of three methods: (1) securely attaching it to a portable, heavy object such as a small slab of concrete in a container; (2) clamping it to a part of the building's exterior that lies within your leased premises (such as a balcony or patio railing); or (3) any other method approved by us. No other methods are allowed. Your satellite dish or antenna system must be a stand-alone system; you may not splice into any existing wires or cables. We may require reasonable screening of the satellite dish or antenna by plants, etc., so long as it does not impair reception.

4. SIGNAL TRANSMISSION FROM EXTERIOR DISH OR ANTENNA TO INTERIOR OF DWELLING. You may not damage or alter the leased premises and may not drill holes through outside walls, doorjambs, windowsills, etc. If your satellite dish or antenna is located outside your dwelling (on a balcony, patio, etc.), the signals received by it may be transmitted to the interior of your dwelling only by the following methods: (1) running a "flat" cable under a doorjamb in a manner that does not physically alter the Premises and does not interfere with proper operation of the door; (2) running a traditional or flat cable through a pre-existing hole in the wall (that will not need to be enlarged to accommodate the cable); (3) connecting cables "through a window pane" similar to how an external car antenna for a cellular phone can be connected to inside wiring by a device glued to either side of the window-without drilling a hole through the window; (4) wireless transmission of the signal from the satellite dish or antenna to a device inside the dwelling; or (5) any other method approved by us.

5. WORKMANSHIP. You are responsible for ensuring that the installation of any satellite dish or antenna is performed in a safe and secure manner within your leased space. We reserve the right, but have no obligation, to inspect the installation of any satellite dish or antenna within your leased space. We reserve the right, but have no obligation, to require that the satellite dish or receiving antenna be re-located, re-installed, or removed if in our reasonable judgment, such equipment poses a safety hazard or may cause damage beyond reasonable wear and tear to the Premises.

6. MAINTENANCE. You will have the sole responsibility for maintaining your satellite dish, receiving antenna and all related equipment.

7. REMOVAL AND DAMAGES. You must remove the satellite dish or receiving antenna and other related equipment when you move out of the apartment. You must pay for any damages and for the cost of repairs or repainting which may be reasonably necessary to restore the Premises to its condition prior to the installation of your satellite dish, antenna or related equipment.

8. LIABILITY INSURANCE AND INDEMNITY. You are liable for any injury or damage to persons or property caused by your dish, and you must maintain liability insurance covering any such damage. You install and operate your dish at your own risk. You will be liable for any injury or damage to persons or property caused by your dish. To ensure that you are able to pay damages in the event that your dish causes injury or damage, unless your apartment is on the ground floor, you must purchase and maintain liability insurance in an amount of not less than $100,000 for your dish for as long as you have it at the community. You must provide us with proof that you have this insurance, and AvalonBay must be named as “additional insured” under your liability policy. We must be notified by your insurance carrier at least thirty days in advance of any cancellation of your liability policy. Further, you agree to hold us harmless and indemnify us against any claims related to your dish by others.

9. SECURITY DEPOSIT INCREASE. Your security deposit (in paragraph 7 of your Lease, where allowed by law) is increased by an additional sum of $ (see community specific policies for amount) in order to help protect us against possible repair costs, damages, or failure to remove at time of move-out. This increased security deposit does not imply a right to drill or otherwise alter your apartment or the Premises.

You may start installation of your satellite dish or antenna only after you have: (1) provided us with written evidence of the liability insurance referred to above; and (2) paid us the additional security deposit. Your limited right to install a satellite dish, as well as our right to impose reasonable restrictions, both arise as a result of a Federal Communications Commission (FCC) order. If you have any questions about this order, feel free to contact us or you may contact the FCC directly.

[Thaedron]

Sounds like they're just trying to milk tenants for some extra deposit cash. I'd try to reason with them and given the fact that you already have a substantial deposit down either get that to be "sufficient" or ask that you divide it up in small amounts to be paid over several months.

[JLucPicard]

If there is an expectation (realistic is debatable?) - or maybe even past experience - that installing a dish could do damage that the apartment managers would need to fix, is their wish for a deposit unreasonable? If the parameters are set for the reason for the depoist and what happens with the deposit at the end of it all, are they violating anything?

I don't know - I'm just asking. :shrug:


ETA: Never mind anything I said above - Holy Crap! When I first posted I skipped right over post #24 because I thought it was just someone posting the FCC regs again. Wow! That was the lease addendum regarding satellite dishes???

How much you wanna bet that it is being read more thoroughly by more people being posted on here than by people that are signing leases at that complex?

[HDTVsportsfan]

Not to be argumentative w/ the OP, but I just don't see a problem w/ this no matter how crazy it may be. I understand ground level, tripod, etc...
But still....it's in the lease. And this is the most comprehensive policy for having a sateliite dish for apartments or condos I've seen here posted here.
They are following FCC guidelines it looks like and allowing you to have it.

They can't set a policy for everyone except those on the ground level. That just leaves themselves open for other issues.

Anyway, good luck no matter where this goes.

[gnahc79]

No offense taken at all, I understand your conclusions. Yeah, in general it would be messy to start making exceptions for specific situations. However, they already do that with the $100k liability insurance waiver for ground floor units (which we have anyways).

To ensure that you are able to pay damages in the event that your dish causes injury or damage, unless your apartment is on the ground floor, you must purchase and maintain liability insurance in an amount of not less than $100,000 for your dish for as long as you have it at the community.

All of this is a moot point in reality I guess. In all likelihood they'll never approach us about the $250 deposit. There's so many units (456) here and lots of people 'hiding' pets and avoiding the $600 deposit and additional $35/month pet fee.

[dgordo]

No offense taken at all, I understand your conclusions. Yeah, in general it would be messy to start making exceptions for specific situations. However, they already do that with the $100k liability insurance waiver for ground floor units (which we have anyways).



All of this is a moot point in reality I guess. In all likelihood they'll never approach us about the $250 deposit. There's so many units (456) here and lots of people 'hiding' pets and avoiding the $600 deposit and additional $35/month pet fee.


I tend to agree with HDTVsportsfan. This is the most comprehensive policy I have ever seen. It is clear they had an attorney write this who understood the FCC rule. The only problem I see with it is that they restrcit you to one dish.

Bottom line, call the FCC back and talk to a more knowledgable rep or pay the deposit. I cant see anyway you wouldnt get it all back.

[PCampbell]

This is a great time to buy a HOUSE.

[nevea2be]

I would think a deposit would be needed if the dish was going to be secured to some part of the building. Hence the possibility of fixing something once the dish is removed. I think by bypassing the securing of it to the building part ie; filling a 5 gallon pail of cement with a pole and having the installer connect the dish to that would in fact bypass any need for a deposit based on it not being secured to the building.

But they could always argue that if it happened to fall over and break something so that is why they wish to have it. But I think because you are on the first floor it really could be argued. If they do then you could always look up a tenant association in your area for help.

[DirecTV3049]

I tend to agree with HDTVsportsfan. This is the most comprehensive policy I have ever seen. It is clear they had an attorney write this who understood the FCC rule. The only problem I see with it is that they restrcit you to one dish.


Well . . . wait a minute. As an attorney let me tell you that reading the FCC materials posted here regarding "unreasonable fees," it's not 100% clear to ME that the deposit IS allowed. Of course, I'm not 100% sure its prohibited either.

A LOT of "law" isn't clearly one way or the other. Put simply, attorneys argue about whether stuff is "covered by the rule" or "not covered by the rule" all day long. There's a LOT of "gray area" between the "black" and the "white."

IF you're an attorney for the Landlord and you're asked to write a lease provision for satellite dishes, then, of course, you are going to claim as much of the "gray area" for the landlord as you think you can get away with. Landlords, in general, do not want you to put up a dish . . . that's why the FCC made the regs *forcing* them to do so (provided some conditions are met). In that environment, the landlord's attorney isn't going to be "fair" in drafting the lease provisions. He's most likely going to restrict dish useage by reading the rules in such a way as to impose the most restrictions he thinks he can get away with.

But that doesn't mean that a JUDGE would agree with the position the landlord's lawyer has taken.

Keep in mind, the person (probably a lawyer) drafted the lease for the BENEFIT of the LANDLORD. So, speaking from personal experience (cough, cough) it is not beyond the pale - given how aggressive the client wants to be - to put in provisions that the lawyer only believes has a 5%-10% chance of actually being upheld in court . . . the landlord bets on the fact that most tenants - when shown the language - will say "oh, ok, I see." In legal circles, we call that the "red faced argument" . . . as in I wouldn't be 100% embarassed to argue the position to a Judge although I don't believe the Judge would likely buy it.

Again, I'm NOT saying that the $250 deposit is - or is not - allowable under the FCC guidelines. Not that much of an "expert" in this area. I'm just going by what I read . . . and by my past experiences in drafting leases and other types of business agreements.

The question is what will really happen if push comes to shove?

If you're a risk taker, if you can sleep soundly at night knowing that the apartment manager may take action against you - removing the dish, suing you, declaring you in breach, etc. - then you probably are inclined to put the dish up and find out what happens. Ok, there is nothing immoral or fattening about being a risk taker, sticking your toe out and seeing what happens. Of course, if you pull your toe back in (and decide to play by the apartment's rules) you may be on the hook to DirecTV for early termination fee or have to put $250 down for the deposit. On the other hand, they may not come after you. It's sort of a game of "chicken" at this point . . . except that you have more at risk (monetarily) than they do.

If you are not a risk taker and cannot live with the possibility of being bothered by the apartment manager - if it causes you to lose sleep and be anxious - then I'd take a pass on the dish OR just get my head wrapped around paying the $250.

That's my $0.02.

[dgordo]

DirecTV3049

I am also an attorney, and this is the point I was trying to make. It isn't clear if a deposit is allowed or not as the FCC hasn't ruled on that. That was why I said to ask the FCC for guidance or pay the deposit. To me it is obvious that the lawyer who drafted the rules read the FCC rules and said, "I don't see anything prohibiting a deposit, only a fee, lets call this a deposit." Of course you could just put up a dish and see what happens, but why bother when the FCC has an obligation to tell you if the deposit is allowed?

[joe diamond]

This is a good one. The management company found a little detail and ran with it. I did notice they said "THEIR CATV LINES". I bet they get a slice of the CATV money.

This is as good as the NO SATELLITE DISHES on the outside deal I found. The reason cited was.......this is subsidized housing and if the evening news comes here for a cop story and someone sees the dishes they could get the state and federal money coming to this place canceled.....

The deposit is more subtle.

Joe

[DirecTV3049]

DirecTV3049

I am also an attorney, and this is the point I was trying to make. It isn't clear if a deposit is allowed or not as the FCC hasn't ruled on that . . . but why bother when the FCC has an obligation to tell you if the deposit is allowed?

Well, I'm not sure that the FCC has an *obligation* to tell you if the deposit is allowed. It MAY be that the FCC has decided the matter or developed guidance on the matter, but . . .

Like calling the IRS service numbers, the answer (be it "yes," "no," "maybe," or "I don't know") you get depends on the qualifications of the person answering the phone . . . and I doubt that they're the FCC's attorneys.

That is, the OP's question really drills down past the surface doesn't it (is a "deposit" a "fee" and does it matter how much the deposit is)? So how much stock do you really want to put into an answer from "Joe" or "Jane" from the FCC? Without knowing WHO the person is - and something about their qualifications.

There's also the little matter of whether the FCC's interpretation of it's own rules would be upheld.

I consider it entirely possible that the FCC's policymakers haven't considered the matter at all . . . or have considered it, but don't have a ready answer either. As a lawyer currently working IN government, I can tell you that similar types of issues type up even the BEST in-house lawyers and policymakers and can cause a lot of headscratching.

I, personally, would be inclined to take any "advice" I got over the phone - especially from a lower level FCC person - with a HUGE grain of salt. Even more so, if they couldn't point me to a written opinion, memorandum, circular or FAQ covering the exact circumstances.

[Lee L]

Sounds to me like you should either pay the deposit or look around for a new place. Even though I am not sure about the insurance requirement or the deposit, they did spend some time on that language and while you might fight them and win, they could always just jack your renewal rates sky high next time or refuse to renew your lease, so you would lose in the end.