How do I know I am getting best HD???

[mrbookend]

Had HD service installed last month with a HR20-100 and and H21. Had complained to D* that my HD PQ was not any better than SD. After checking so many things such as loose connections, native on vs native off, TV and STB settings to allow 1080i or 720p, HDMI vs component, BBC's, etc nothing seemed to work. D* did resets and again no better PQ

The first time Ironwood Comm who is local D* installer came, they forced a new software download and declared that HD was "all better" even though I couldn't tell any difference.

Finally, this week a couple of D* lead tech's from Ironwood came back after I complained again and installed new cables from the WB68 to the STB. What a difference. Now I can really see the difference in HD vs SD. They said that HD needs the new 3GHz (?) cables and that the original installer should have replaced my old coax that was in the house feeding the STB


Now my question is: How do I know if I am getting the best HD picture??

Even though HD is now much better than SD, how would I know if it can be even better. Is there a test pattern or some measurement device that would say I am getting the best picture?

I would be willing to install an OTA antenna to compare if that is a fair test.

Thanks in advance.........
Lovin' the snow in Eastern Idaho

[veryoldschool]

Bad cabling should only cause problems with receiving the signal. Since the signal is digital, it is either "I get it" or "I don't get it". If you "don't get it" you should be seeing video breaking up and sound loss. It isn't like analog where "I get it" or "I get it better".
Now coming from the recorder to the TV may improve with cabling and picture quality will depend on how your TV responds to the various resolutions.

[The Scotsman]

Hello Mr Bookend
I sympathize with your question about whether you're getting the best HD picture quality. This in my opinion is a major can of worms. There are HD broadcasts which originate in the excellent 1920 x 1080 format, but are reduced by DirecTV to something less, in order to squeeze more compressed programs into limited bandwidth. Most posts I have seen on this subject quickly lead to anger and controversy and many members ask "Why are you so worried if the picture looks ok?" The way I see it is this. I spend money on a TV which is "true 1080 HD", but the broadcaster (DirecTV) messes around with the line resolution in order to fit more compressed channels into a limited space. Whether it looks good to my eyes or not, I want to be sure that I am getting the HD quality I paid for. This subject seems to be a dark science and there are apparently few people who know the truth or who want to discuss the truth. If we are watching a downgraded version because DirecTV want to over-compress, then what is the point in spending extra dollars on a TV that is capable of the full potential quality? There are lower quality TVs available whose native resolution is far short of the previously quoted figures and they cost a lot less money.

[Xaa]

Scottsman, that's old stuff. They aren't to anyone's knowledge doing that on the MPEG4 HD channels.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that was before D10 when they were seriously bandwidth hampered.

[mganga]

Hello Mr Bookend
I sympathize with your question about whether you're getting the best HD picture quality. This in my opinion is a major can of worms. There are HD broadcasts which originate in the excellent 1920 x 1080 format, but are reduced by DirecTV to something less, in order to squeeze more compressed programs into limited bandwidth. Most posts I have seen on this subject quickly lead to anger and controversy and many members ask "Why are you so worried if the picture looks ok?" The way I see it is this. I spend money on a TV which is "true 1080 HD", but the broadcaster (DirecTV) messes around with the line resolution in order to fit more compressed channels into a limited space. Whether it looks good to my eyes or not, I want to be sure that I am getting the HD quality I paid for. This subject seems to be a dark science and there are apparently few people who know the truth or who want to discuss the truth. If we are watching a downgraded version because DirecTV want to over-compress, then what is the point in spending extra dollars on a TV that is capable of the full potential quality? There are lower quality TVs available whose native resolution is far short of the previously quoted figures and they cost a lot less money.

Amen, brother!

[veryoldschool]

Scottsman, that's old stuff. They aren't to anyone's knowledge doing that on the MPEG4 HD channels.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that was before D10 when they were seriously bandwidth hampered.
That's the MPEG2 HD and only the Discovery theater wasn't along with all of the 720p channels.

[mrbookend]

Bad cabling should only cause problems with receiving the signal. Since the signal is digital, it is either "I get it" or "I don't get it". If you "don't get it" you should be seeing video breaking up and sound loss. It isn't like analog where "I get it" or "I get it better".
Now coming from the recorder to the TV may improve with cabling and picture quality will depend on how your TV responds to the various resolutions.

Strange as it seems but all the D* techs did was replace the old cabling from the WB68 to the STB's. I was with them the entire time so I know they didn't change anything else. My HD picture improved dramatically.


Also, what I am really trying to figure out is how do I know if I am getting the best picture? They changed my cable resulting in much improved picture. Is there something else to look at that also might even improve over what I now have??

[smoelheim]

Also, what I am really trying to figure out is how do I know if I am getting the best picture? They changed my cable resulting in much improved picture. Is there something else to look at that also might even improve over what I now have??

I gotta side with veryoldschool on this one. Its a digital signal. You either get the signal, or you don't. I'm not really sure how you ever got "fuzzy HD".

[veryoldschool]

Strange as it seems but all the D* techs did was replace the old cabling from the WB68 to the STB's. I was with them the entire time so I know they didn't change anything else. My HD picture improved dramatically.


Also, what I am really trying to figure out is how do I know if I am getting the best picture? They changed my cable resulting in much improved picture. Is there something else to look at that also might even improve over what I now have??
You can tweak your TV with test patterns [HDNet has one early Sunday mornings sometimes]. I keep a copy of it on my DVR.
Your old cable may have been RG59, which shouldn't have been used in the first place.
There are no settings in the HR, so everything would be in your TV. I use the HDMI [digital] to my TV, but many use component and say it's just as good.
Some of the HD channels will look better than others because the provider is upconverting SD to HD.

[mrbookend]

You can tweak your TV with test patterns [HDNet has one early Sunday mornings sometimes].

I will go ahead and try to record that. Thanks...

Just as a test, I may reconnect the old two cables feeding the HR20 just to see if there is any change.

[Gonesouth]

You can tweak your TV with test patterns [HDNet has one early Sunday mornings sometimes]. I keep a copy of it on my DVR.
Your old cable may have been RG59, which shouldn't have been used in the first place.
There are no settings in the HR, so everything would be in your TV. I use the HDMI [digital] to my TV, but many use component and say it's just as good.
Some of the HD channels will look better than others because the provider is upconverting SD to HD.

Is the test pattern called something on the guide so I can search to see when it is on again and record to DVR?

[veryoldschool]

Is the test pattern called something on the guide so I can search to see when it is on again and record to DVR?
Saturday 1/26 @ 3:30 AM [west coast] for 10 min.

[mrbookend]

Is the test pattern called something on the guide so I can search to see when it is on again and record to DVR?

According to this is on Tuesdays 08:00EST

www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetpatterns.html

[Rube79]

What type of Tv are we talking about here? Stats on it..... To see a difference when they changed the rg6 is impossible..... Veryoldschool and smoelheim are both correct.

[veryoldschool]

According to this is on Tuesdays 08:00EST

www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetpatterns.html (http://www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetpatterns.html)
My guide didn't show it then.

[sore_bluto]

Next test pattern is 1/26 from 5:30-5:40 CST on 79 (HDnet). Look for it early Saturday mornings as HDnet Test Pattern or SIGN OFF for 10 minutes. Track this problem from the original post here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115674&highlight=mrbookend)

[RobertE]

Cable replace from dish to box = placebo.

Most likely, what you were looking at before wasn't true HD. Even though there are a good number of HD channels out there, HD content is another story. As time goes on, more and more shows are in true HD, but it will be a mixed bag as time goes on.

Best way to see a difference. Find a program on Biography, Animal Planet or Discovery that was produced in 2007 or 2008. Tune to the SD version and note the quality, then change to the HD version. Note the difference. This can also be done on a program you know isn't in true HD, ie a good number of pre-2006 shows.

I do this for all HD Installs/Upgrades to help the customer know what is going on.

[mrbookend]

Thanks for advise.

I have a Panny 42" Plasma that bought early December 2006 which the HR20-100 is hooked up to.

Wife has a 32" Olevia LCD we bought a month ago.

[John in Georgia]

Strange as it seems but all the D* techs did was replace the old cabling from the WB68 to the STB's. I was with them the entire time so I know they didn't change anything else. My HD picture improved dramatically.


Also, what I am really trying to figure out is how do I know if I am getting the best picture? They changed my cable resulting in much improved picture. Is there something else to look at that also might even improve over what I now have??

In my opinion, about all you can do is compare the OTA reception of a local HD program to DirecTV's feed of the same local. You also might consider feeding an optical HD source to your TV such as Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Currently, these are the highest quality HD sources available to us.

You need to realize, however, that DirecTV (or any other satellite or cable system) is unable to deliver a 1080 source at this time.

[veryoldschool]

You need to realize, however, that DirecTV (or any other satellite or cable system) is unable to deliver a 1080 source at this time.
This isn't quite true. Even the masters of the HDlite discussions have acknowledged that Discovery HD theater is full 1080i [aka 1920 x 1080 MPEG-2].

[mrbookend]

Thanks for all the input..

I am now starting to play around a little with different cables and settings to see if I can figure out what works best.

Also, once I am on a HD channel such as Animal Planet should I see the same difference in quality whether I change channels between the HD and SD feeds as compared to leaving on the HD channel and changing the TV input from HDMI to S-Video????

Will be ordering a OTA antenna from Solid Signal next week to help in comparison.

[RobertE]

Thanks for all the input..

I am now starting to play around a little with different cables and settings to see if I can figure out what works best.

Also, once I am on a HD channel such as Animal Planet should I see the same difference in quality whether I change channels between the HD and SD feeds as compared to leaving on the HD channel and changing the TV input from HDMI to S-Video????

Will be ordering a OTA antenna from Solid Signal next week to help in comparison.

You will see a bigger difference switching between the HD & SD versions than different inputs.

[mrbookend]

I disconnected two of the four feed into the WB68 and directly put into my old Samsung DVR so I could check to see if the WB68 had any effect. But before I checked its output to my wifes Olevia LCD, I happened to look at the picture on the Panny which is fed by the HR20-100. The HD picture really popped. It was so much clearer and crisp.

I reconnected the two feeds from dish back into the WB68 and the Panny HD PQ has remained excellent for the last couple of hours.


Now, I got to believe as most have said that the new cables didn't improve my picture but rather the Tech's must have done something unintentionally to improve the picture just as I did tonight.

Any ideas what might cause this???

[veryoldschool]

I disconnected two of the four feed into the WB68 and directly put into my old Samsung DVR so I could check to see if the WB68 had any effect. But before I checked its output to my wifes Olevia LCD, I happened to look at the picture on the Panny which is fed by the HR20-100. The HD picture really popped. It was so much clearer and crisp.

I reconnected the two feeds from dish back into the WB68 and the Panny HD PQ has remained excellent for the last couple of hours.


Now, I got to believe as most have said that the new cables didn't improve my picture but rather the Tech's must have done something unintentionally to improve the picture just as I did tonight.

Any ideas what might cause this???
I think this is a common occurrence that happens. I know I've done it. I'm looking at picture quality and make a change to the system. I watch a program for a while and conclude it "looks better". I think what we see is a good quality program [and not really the changes we've made]. I know I did this with changing from 480i to 480p. I watched the program for some time and came to the conclusion it looked better. Then I noticed that the resolution light was still 480i. While I'd deselected 480i in the setup menu, until you changed channels the resolution doesn't change.
Your mind can tell your eyes or ears what they are seeing or hearing is better.
In the old stereo days the sales force called it psycho acoustics. They'd turn on some small good sounding ones and then the big black & chrome ones that would catch the eye of the customer [but the left the small ones still on]. Lots of the big crappy ones sold and few of the clean small ones did.
Anyway make a good recording with lots of colors and detail in the image. Then replay it after you make changes and then see. Even this doesn't completely remove "the mind" out of the loop [as I posted above]. :)

[mrbookend]

I think this is a common occurrence ..... called it psycho acoustics. . :)

I am starting to think you may be right. When I got up this AM I decided to check the HD vs SD channels again. Now I am back to not being able to tell hardly any difference between the two. Last night it was night and day.

Even had my wife looking and she definitely noticed a big difference last night compared to what we had been receiving. She knew each time when we were on an HD channel without even comparing to the SD feed.

I think until I get that OTA antenna installed I won't have a reliable reference.

I was hoping it might be something like poor grounding or a bad WB68 that could cause this.

[ssandhoops]

Sounds like you have all of the outputs of the HR20 connected to your TV. I hope you realize that when you have the S-video selected on your TV, that input is not capable of HD. Only the HDMI and Component inputs of your TV can do HD. I'm guessing that when you are unable to see a differenece in picture, it's because you have your TV set to the S-Video input. My recommendation would be to select the HD input you think looks best (HDMI or component) and disconnect the others. That way there is no way you can accidentally set the TV to a non HD input. Personally, I only have an HDMI connection between my HR20 and TV.

[SPACEMAKER]

Does OP have an HDTV? If yes, what model?

The only reason I ask is to just check the simple things first.

[mrbookend]

Sounds like you have all of the outputs of the HR20 connected to your TV. I hope you realize that when you have the S-video selected on your TV, that input is not capable of HD. Only the HDMI and Component inputs of your TV can do HD. I'm guessing that when you are unable to see a differenece in picture, it's because you have your TV set to the S-Video input. My recommendation would be to select the HD input you think looks best (HDMI or component) and disconnect the others. That way there is no way you can accidentally set the TV to a non HD input. Personally, I only have an HDMI connection between my HR20 and TV.


I use the HDMI for HD. Only reason I had S-Video outputed to TV was because was much quicker to change between inputs knowing that a S-Video only supports 480 and HDMI would be for 720 or 1080.

Changing channels took longer as waited for TV to adjust for resolution.

[BattleScott]

I am starting to think you may be right. When I got up this AM I decided to check the HD vs SD channels again. Now I am back to not being able to tell hardly any difference between the two. Last night it was night and day.

Even had my wife looking and she definitely noticed a big difference last night compared to what we had been receiving. She knew each time when we were on an HD channel without even comparing to the SD feed.

I think until I get that OTA antenna installed I won't have a reliable reference.

I was hoping it might be something like poor grounding or a bad WB68 that could cause this.


Make sure to always use a single channel as your reference when comparing. I would recommend Discovery HD as it available in HD and SD with the same program on both and the HD content is reliable and good quality. Many of the other channels are just upconverting the SD content (which still usually looks much better on an HD TV) or are employing the dreaded Strech-O-Vision. Also, make sure the TV is set to FULL aspect ratio and the HRxx to Pillar Bar mode. This will eliminate any additional distortion in the images being displayed. Also, always check the resolution that the TV is seeing by hitting the RECALL button. If your wataching an HD program ([HD] in the info banner) on DiscoveryHD and the RECALL button shows 1080i FULL, it sould look better than any SD you've ever seen... if not, perhaps there is a ceratin percentage of the population that can't 'SEE HD'...

[mrbookend]

Make sure to always use a single channel as your reference when comparing. ...

Definitely agree with you.

Just now I switched to the science channel and the difference between HD vs the SD channel is night and day. So I am definitely getting HD and can see the difference. But this morning I couldn't tell the difference between the HD or SD on the science channel or others. I keep making sure that I am receiving 1080i as displayed on screen when hitting the Panny remote or looking at blue light indicator on front of STB. Also I only have HDMI outputted to TV.. Also I make sure that on channel guide it says HD and show is not too old.

I ran satellite setup this AM after doing a RBR and now I am able to tell the difference, easily.

Last night before I changed some cables around I wasn't able to see the difference. But then all of a sudden I could definitely tell difference after I pulled off two cables from feed from dish.

So this isn't about whether we can tell HD vs SD but rather sometimes we get it and other times we don't . And that is what I can't figure out.

Appreciate all the suggestions but I am really starting to think there is some kind of interference or something that affects how the signal is displayed

[veryoldschool]

I use the HDMI for HD. Only reason I had S-Video outputed to TV was because was much quicker to change between inputs knowing that a S-Video only supports 480 and HDMI would be for 720 or 1080.

Changing channels took longer as waited for TV to adjust for resolution.
I see some variables here:
1) Using the S-Video output of an HD program will look better than the SD broadcast of the same program.
2) using different inputs also brings the TV settings into play as [on mine] each input has its own adjustments.
3) as I've posted and others too, not every HD program is "equal". Some are just upconverting SD programing to their HD channel.

I think the best way would be to find a good looking HD channel and see if it was also being broadcast on their SD channel. Then maybe record both and this way you can compare the exact same part of the shows.
I haven't met anybody that can't tell HD from SD, when I show off my system.

[veryoldschool]

Appreciate all the suggestions but I am really starting to think there is some kind of interference or something that affects how the signal is displayed
While the receiver sometimes needs a reset to get back on track [this should be rare though], there isn't much from the receiver to the dish that can make the differences you seem to be seeing. This kind of points to the receiver to TV connections/settings as being the source/cause.

[Milominderbinder2]

It's digital.

Bad cables do not reduce resolution. Bad cables can cause you to lose signal. Bad cables can cause pixellation.

Bad cables do not reduce resolution.

- Craig