MFH2 and OTA

[ILiveOnWacker]

My building got upgraded to MFH2 over the past week and my unit's upgrade was today. Everything went pretty well, but the installer said that there is no way to hook the OTA antenna up to the system.

Not a big deal since "most" of the locals are coming through the satellite, but we don't get any of the sub channels. I was also expecting to beable to use both sat. tuners and OTA tuners.

Does anyone know if there is a way to get the OTA antenna hooked up?

Thanks

[Earl Bonovich]

Your building engineers would have to diplex in the signal.

And if they truely have an MFH-2 solution..
Then there is an OTA input on every one of the SWM-8 modules..

You would just need a diplexor on your end.

[ILiveOnWacker]

I have a diplexor and installed it on my end with no avail. I guess they didn't hook up the antenna to the swm modules.

[ktabel01]

Who is your provider here in Chicago?

[ILiveOnWacker]

Who is your provider here in Chicago?

USA Wireless Satellite TV

[AntAltMike]

Back before DirecTV was offering standard definition locals, MDU operators would often support and even enhance the existing terrestrial antenna MATV headends so that they could better compete with franchised cable. Then, once the spot beam satellites were operational, they would deliberatly let them deteriorate so as to induce their customers to pay the extra $5 or $6 a month that DirecTV used to charge for locals. I wound up taking over the service of several MATV terrestrial reception headends because the residents who were on MATV only, with no cable or satellite, felt it was better to pay me to repair them than to get jerked by companies that were supposed to be repairing them for free but not diligently doing so.

Does DirecTV's present subscription pricing structure in any way dissuade the DirecTV system operator from assuring the availability of broadcast HDTV signals?

[Earl Bonovich]

Does DirecTV's present subscription pricing structure in any way dissuade the DirecTV system operator from assuring the availability of broadcast HDTV signals?

Considering that the OTA aspects of the receiver... are enabled by the same $9.99 HD Access fee that activates the HD channels...

I don't see where the pricing structure is setup in a way to limit the OTA.

In this case.

I am guessing the building/installer... didn't want to go through the work/cost of splitting the OTA signal to all the SWM8 modules (as they do support diplexing)

[doctor j]

MFH-2 diplexors have to be NAS 9501 units.
There is a 2.3 MHz communication channel within the SWM network. The 9501 places this with the >950MHz Sat arm. Other diplexors even if rated <5Mz put that signal on the OTA 5-860 MHz arm and SWM make not work well.
Not my mandate just the party line Directv is putting out.

Doctor j

Back before DirecTV was offering standard definition locals, MDU operators would often support and even enhance the existing terrestrial antenna MATV headends so that they could better compete with franchised cable. Then, once the spot beam satellites were operational, they woild deliberatly less them deteriorate so as to induce their customers to pay the extra $5 or $6 a month that DirecTV used to charge for locals. I wound up taking over the service of several MATV terrestrial reception headends becuse the residents who were on MATV only, with no cable or satellite, felt it was better to pay me to repair them than to get jerked by companies htat were supposed to be repairing them for free but not diligently doing so.

Does DirecTV's present subscription pricing structure in any way dissuade the DirecTV system operator from assuring the availability of broadcast HDTV signals?

[AntAltMike]

MFH-2 diplexors have to be NAS 9501 units.
There is a 2.3 MHz communication channel within the SWM network. The 9501 places this with the >950MHz Sat arm. Other diplexors even if rated <5Mz put that signal on the OTA 5-860 MHz arm and SWM make not work well.
Not my mandate just the party line Directv is putting out.

I'm not outfitted to evaluate diplexer rolloffs below 5 MHz, so I will have to rely on published specs, but I have to wonder if the NAS 9501 can be diplexed with cable internet that uses an upstream frequency of 10.5 MHz, as it does in Washington, DC. FWIW, I have no trouble getting high speed internet's 10.5 MHz upstream signal to adequately pass through Sonora diplexer paths that are rated to pass 15 MHz to 860 MHz. It might take some seriously steep rolling off to have cutoff points between 2.3 MHz and 10.5 MHz.

How much are they charging for NAS 9501s? I've liked paying about a dollar each for Holland 5MHz to 860 MHz diplexers.

[AntAltMike]

From www.nasproducts.com website:



MODEL STD-9501

DESCRIPTION VHF+UHF / Satellite (950 -2150 MHz) combiner

ORDER # 215200

FEATURES
Low insertion loss.

SPECIFICATIONS
Satellite input frequency range 950 ÷ 2150 MHz
Satellite frequency insertion loss < 2 dB
Satellite return loss > 10 dB
Terrestrial input frequency range 5 ÷ 806 MHz
Terrestrial input insertion loss < 2 dB
Terrestrial return loss > 10 dB
Isolation between satellite and terrestrial > 30 dB
Satellite input DC Voltage pass Yes
Tettestrial input DC voltage pass No
Bias current 500 Max. A
Operating temperature range -34 ~ +60 (-31 ~ +140) Cº(Fº)

APPLICATION
For combining two signals with different frequencies into a common wire.

The specs indicate that it will pass low frequency cable modem upstream signals.

It could well be that most or all off-the-shelf diplexers also pass up to 2.3 MHz on the DC/22KHz path, but that DirecTV has not yet formally certified any of them.

[DirecTv Chicago]

My building got upgraded to MFH2 over the past week and my unit's upgrade was today. Everything went pretty well, but the installer said that there is no way to hook the OTA antenna up to the system.

Not a big deal since "most" of the locals are coming through the satellite, but we don't get any of the sub channels. I was also expecting to beable to use both sat. tuners and OTA tuners.

Does anyone know if there is a way to get the OTA antenna hooked up?

Thanks

What receiver model are you using? H21 or HR21 do not have off air tuners built into the receiver. You could diplex directly into your tv if your tv had an off air tuner, but to the best of my knowledge you would not be able to go through either one of those receivers.

And in most cases this would not be a concern as the majority of the stations will be picked up on the 5 LNB.

[ILiveOnWacker]

What receiver model are you using? H21 or HR21 do not have off air tuners built into the receiver. You could diplex directly into your tv if your tv had an off air tuner, but to the best of my knowledge you would not be able to go through either one of those receivers.

And in most cases this would not be a concern as the majority of the stations will be picked up on the 5 LNB.

I have an HR-20 and an H-21. I know that the H-21 doesn't have OTA ability but the HR-20 does. I know it isn't a huge deal, but I would like the ability to record from OTA. There are also some programs that I enjoy watching on PBS which does not currently come in over the satellite.

Is this something I should bring up with the installer or am I out of luck?

[Earl Bonovich]

I have an HR-20 and an H-21. I know that the H-21 doesn't have OTA ability but the HR-20 does. I know it isn't a huge deal, but I would like the ability to record from OTA. There are also some programs that I enjoy watching on PBS which does not currently come in over the satellite.

Is this something I should bring up with the installer or am I out of luck?

Where are you in relationship to The Sears Tower and the Hancock.

You are probably going to be better off get a small indoor UHF antenna, to get all the signals from the Tower... the only one on the Hancock, I think is CBS.

[ILiveOnWacker]

Where are you in relationship to The Sears Tower and the Hancock.

You are probably going to be better off get a small indoor UHF antenna, to get all the signals from the Tower... the only one on the Hancock, I think is CBS.

I am about 10 blocks north/west of the sears tower. I see it out of my window. If I get one of the indoor antennas, can I just hook it up to the HR-20 and it will work just about the same?

[ktabel01]

Live just off wacker, and an indoor antenna hooked up to the HR20 works pretty nicely.

[texasbrit]

MFH-2 diplexors have to be NAS 9501 units.
There is a 2.3 MHz communication channel within the SWM network. The 9501 places this with the >950MHz Sat arm. Other diplexors even if rated <5Mz put that signal on the OTA 5-860 MHz arm and SWM make not work well.
Not my mandate just the party line Directv is putting out.

Doctor j

As far as I knew there was no 2.3Mhz communication channel. I think the SWM8 has its channels at the following frequencies.
1 - 974
2 - 1076
3 - 1178
4 - 1280
5 - 1382
6 - 1484
7 - 1586
8 - 1688
9 - 1790

there are nine channels, eight are for the satellite channels and the ninth is for communication between the SWM8 and the receivers.

I've not seen any other references to a 2.3MHz channel for SWM.....and my SWM handles OTA quite nicely with a regular diplexer...

[kliff11]

Considering that the OTA aspects of the receiver... are enabled by the same $9.99 HD Access fee that activates the HD channels...

I don't see where the pricing structure is setup in a way to limit the OTA.

In this case.

I am guessing the building/installer... didn't want to go through the work/cost of splitting the OTA signal to all the SWM8 modules (as they do support diplexing)

I also live in Condo Building in Chicago serviced by USA Wireless. They are implementing the MFH2 solution today. The installer is telling me I can't get my OTA channels anymore - "not technically possible". I was previously hooked up the the OTA on our roof. If this is true I'll loose many local HD channels. Is this correct? USA Wireless told me on the phone they could hook this up and now the installer doesn't think its possible.

[Earl Bonovich]

I also live in Condo Building in Chicago serviced by USA Wireless. They are implementing the MFH2 solution today. The installer is telling me I can't get my OTA channels anymore - "not technically possible". I was previously hooked up the the OTA on our roof. If this is true I'll loose many local HD channels. Is this correct? USA Wireless told me on the phone they could hook this up and now the installer doesn't think its possible.

MFH-2 is structurly designed to work with OTA.

The core of the setup (the SWM-8 modules), have a specific input for OTA... for that reason. It even says so right on the SWM-8 Module.
(And newer documentation for the SWM-8's state that the OTA is specifically for MDU installatiosn)

As for the HD that you will lose:

The HD Locals that you will lose in Chicago is WCIU, WTTW...
WCIU will most likely be coming around the time baseball season starts.
WTTW is slated to come once the contracts for the PBS affiliates are complete.

WPWR, I don't think carries any HD content anymore...

I do think there is another PBS out there, but can't recall if it is in the Chicago DMA or not.

All the other Chicago stations broadcasting in HD are carried via SAT
(ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, CW) and of course CSN

[kliff11]

MFH-2 is structurly designed to work with OTA.

The core of the setup (the SWM-8 modules), have a specific input for OTA... for that reason. It even says so right on the SWM-8 Module.
(And newer documentation for the SWM-8's state that the OTA is specifically for MDU installatiosn)

As for the HD that you will lose:

The HD Locals that you will lose in Chicago is WCIU, WTTW...
WCIU will most likely be coming around the time baseball season starts.
WTTW is slated to come once the contracts for the PBS affiliates are complete.

WPWR, I don't think carries any HD content anymore...

I do think there is another PBS out there, but can't recall if it is in the Chicago DMA or not.

All the other Chicago stations broadcasting in HD are carried via SAT
(ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, CW) and of course CSN

The installer got it to work. I don't know exactly what he did in the communications closet but in my condo he initially tried using a Skywalker Diplexer (5-2300MHz) and it would freeze the signal. He took that off and then used a Tradewind HR S2 2 Way Splitter (5-2400MHz) and it worked. I have all the OTA and Sat HD stations working now and can finally record 2 shows at once.

[DirecTv Chicago]

I also live in Condo Building in Chicago serviced by USA Wireless. They are implementing the MFH2 solution today. The installer is telling me I can't get my OTA channels anymore - "not technically possible". I was previously hooked up the the OTA on our roof. If this is true I'll loose many local HD channels. Is this correct? USA Wireless told me on the phone they could hook this up and now the installer doesn't think its possible.

Can the OTA work on MFH2, yes. Do system operators want to continue to service OTA after the majority of channels are now available on the new system, No.

There is alot of work involved to keep local HD channels at an acceptable level. Some buildings have no issues, others based on location have to have them tuned weekly.

[ILiveOnWacker]

The installer got it to work. I don't know exactly what he did in the communications closet but in my condo he initially tried using a Skywalker Diplexer (5-2300MHz) and it would freeze the signal. He took that off and then used a Tradewind HR S2 2 Way Splitter (5-2400MHz) and it worked. I have all the OTA and Sat HD stations working now and can finally record 2 shows at once.

Maybe that is my problem too. I have the skywalker diplexer and it doesn't work. I just bought a cheap OTA antenna and it works ok, but loses the signal a bunch. Looks like I will be giving USA Wireless a call....

[AntAltMike]

So far, no one has reported "scoping out" the SWM output to see what the signal levels are of unintended RF products that fall in the cable TV band, such that we could then have an informed opinion on potential problems that might occur by diplexing cable or off-air with satellite by using just splitters with no bandpass filtering.

[ILiveOnWacker]

So far, no one has reported "scoping out" the SWM output to see what the signal levels are of unintended RF products that fall in the cable TV band, such that we could then have an informed opinion on potential problems that might occur by diplexing cable or off-air with satellite by using just splitters with no bandpass filtering.

I don't know much about this stuff, but I believe the skywalker does have bandpass filtering. One of the outputs is labeled for OTA while the other is for satellite. Is that what you mean?

[AntAltMike]

I don't know much about this stuff, but I believe the skywalker does have bandpass filtering. One of the outputs is labeled for OTA while the other is for satellite. Is that what you mean?

Yes, but in kliff111's last post, he said that after he had trouble with the Skywalker diplexer, the tech removed it and replaced it with an ordinary high frequency splitter that does not have bandpass filtering and that worked and is the configuration he went with. MY current concern is that we can't asses kliff111's current vulnerability to out-of-band interference that might come out of the unfiltered SWM lead.

[doctor j]

I don't judge just report information given.

This is from the SBCA MFH1 &2 Certification course.

Doctor j

[texasbrit]

I don't judge just report information given.

This is from the SBCA MFH1 &2 Certification course.

Doctor j


Interesting, haven't seen this anywhere else.

[AntAltMike]

Interesting, haven't seen this anywhere else.

I just opened the box containing an SWM power supply, and the accompanying flyer said it passed signals from 2.3 MHz to whatever its upper limit was (2+GHz).

[texasbrit]

I just opened the box containing an SWM power supply, and the accompanying flyer said it passed signals from 2.3 MHz to whatever its upper limit was (2+GHz).


And I have received confirmation that there IS a 2.3MHz signalling channel - thanks for the info doctor J.
So cheap diplexers without band pass filtering (like the ones I use with my SWM) work fine, but anything that filters out the low frequencies (splitters or diplexers) will not work with the SWM.

[ILiveOnWacker]

And I have received confirmation that there IS a 2.3MHz signalling channel - thanks for the info doctor J.
So cheap diplexers without band pass filtering (like the ones I use with my SWM) work fine, but anything that filters out the low frequencies (splitters or diplexers) will not work with the SWM.

I just tried the cheapest thing that I had.....a splitter from when I had cable. That didn't work. I'm thinking that the installers didn't hook up the antenna.

[malthound]

As far as I knew there was no 2.3Mhz communication channel. I think the SWM8 has its channels at the following frequencies.
1 - 974
2 - 1076
3 - 1178
4 - 1280
5 - 1382
6 - 1484
7 - 1586
8 - 1688
9 - 1790

there are nine channels, eight are for the satellite channels and the ninth is for communication between the SWM8 and the receivers.

I've not seen any other references to a 2.3MHz channel for SWM.....and my SWM handles OTA quite nicely with a regular diplexer...

The Communication that occurs at 2.3 MHz is a specific channel for each IRD to request transponder info from the SWM. the Ch 1 "network channel" is for common info to each IRD such as APG guide data, downloads, etc. The info I'm getting from the field seems to indicate that some diplexers are passing the 2.3MHz on the SAT leg, probably because a diplexer is basically a notch filter that removes a set of frequencies to send to one leg and sends the remainder down the other leg. Some diplexers notch the SAT freqs, while others notch the OTA freqs. If you are using the wrong kind of diplexer, the IRD may not see the SWM, because the SWM isn't receiving the request for either SWM channel assignment or for the desired transponder. Hope this helps...BTW, there's an MFH2 class in Denver on FEB 28th at the DTV facility, if you're interested.

[AntAltMike]

My guess why some pass the 2.3MHz and some don't is that the Sat port has a high pass filter in parallel with a DC shunt path that may be nothing more than an inductor that passes DC and 22KHz, and the rolloff of that lowpass filter will determine whether it inadvertently allows 2.3MHz to pass.

[texasbrit]

The Communication that occurs at 2.3 MHz is a specific channel for each IRD to request transponder info from the SWM. the Ch 1 "network channel" is for common info to each IRD such as APG guide data, downloads, etc. The info I'm getting from the field seems to indicate that some diplexers are passing the 2.3MHz on the SAT leg, probably because a diplexer is basically a notch filter that removes a set of frequencies to send to one leg and sends the remainder down the other leg. Some diplexers notch the SAT freqs, while others notch the OTA freqs. If you are using the wrong kind of diplexer, the IRD may not see the SWM, because the SWM isn't receiving the request for either SWM channel assignment or for the desired transponder. Hope this helps...BTW, there's an MFH2 class in Denver on FEB 28th at the DTV facility, if you're interested.


Yes, it depends on the diplexer. As I posted, my cheap Radio Shack diplexers pass the 2.3MHz signals on the satellite leg OK so they work fine with the SWM.

[malthound]

I'm wondering.... why would a business owner focus on saving a couple of bucks on a diplexer while at the same time risk rolling a truck at roughly 100.00 an hour all expenses considered because of untested components? I understand in this market of ever decreasing margins the necessity of minding costs, but that always should be balanced against the cost of repeat service calls due to unreliable components. The cost difference of the NAS diplexer is minimal compared to the cost of an unbillable service call due to spotty performance on Radio Shack components, IMO.....

[AntAltMike]

The problem is lack of knowledge and lack of inventory.

[sattec]

"my cheap Radio Shack diplexers pass the 2.3MHz signals on the satellite leg OK so they work fine with the SWM."

I don't remember Radio shack being cheap in cost.....:)

[texasbrit]

I'm wondering.... why would a business owner focus on saving a couple of bucks on a diplexer while at the same time risk rolling a truck at roughly 100.00 an hour all expenses considered because of untested components? I understand in this market of ever decreasing margins the necessity of minding costs, but that always should be balanced against the cost of repeat service calls due to unreliable components. The cost difference of the NAS diplexer is minimal compared to the cost of an unbillable service call due to spotty performance on Radio Shack components, IMO.....

I think you misunderstood. It's my own installation not a customer. And the point I was making is that people are actually having problems with some of the EXPENSIVE diplexers because they have more effective notch filtering on the signals and the 2.3GHz signal that is supposed to go to the SWM is getting filtered out.