Hey Scott....

[Halfsek]

Since you're the man when it comes to connections with Dish, I was hoping you might be able to get a specific answer on something.

Up until now there's only been speculation as to why Dish hasn't gone with name based recording. I'm sure network TV is better, but man, these cable channels constantly change their lineup. Not only is the 721 recording shows I don't want (due to a pre emption of some sort) but my saved program screen is just getting cluttered with unwanted shows and partial recordings.

Can you talk to those guys (and some gals, I'm sure) and see if they can give you a specific answer regarding name based recordings.

After switching from Tivo I though it wouldn't be a big deal not to have the name based, but with all the missed shows and the extra crap I'm getting, I'm king of longing for the old days.

[riekl]

Originally posted by Halfsek
Since you're the man when it comes to connections with Dish, I was hoping you might be able to get a specific answer on something.

Up until now there's only been speculation as to why Dish hasn't gone with name based recording. I'm sure network TV is better, but man, these cable channels constantly change their lineup. Not only is the 721 recording shows I don't want (due to a pre emption of some sort) but my saved program screen is just getting cluttered with unwanted shows and partial recordings.

Can you talk to those guys (and some gals, I'm sure) and see if they can give you a specific answer regarding name based recordings.

After switching from Tivo I though it wouldn't be a big deal not to have the name based, but with all the missed shows and the extra crap I'm getting, I'm king of longing for the old days.

So .. switch back to DirecTV with a DirectTivo .. problem solved =)

[Halfsek]

Nope, they only have 35 hours of recording time.
And their programming isn't as good.

Good suggestion though. I'll try it out with my customers. :)

[riekl]

Originally posted by Halfsek
Nope, they only have 35 hours of recording time.
And their programming isn't as good.

Good suggestion though. I'll try it out with my customers. :)

Bah .. 20 mins to upgrade a system to 120 hours and you still save money .. programming isn't as good ? For what ? Spanish channels ? I can't believe someone would compare negatively DTV's programming .. they have everything Dish does and more .. minus foreign channels .. They have more PPV channels, more sports, more local markets .. better equipment.

[Scott Greczkowski]

See my post here....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?postid=76867#post76867

It's not that they dont want to do it, just at the moment they can't

[Halfsek]

Thanks, Scott.

I really do like the 721. As a machine I don't think it's missed a recording of a show that was on (rather than moved) or done anything screwy for about 3 months now. I never even have to reset it. Although, come to think if it, it has reset itself a couple of times. But not at inopportune moments.

As for programming, I actually switched from DTV to Dish due to more channel selection and lower price. I think Dish (at the time) had more Discovery channels and other channels of that type. I suppose DTV could have caught up by now.

[TerryC]

Scott, I read what you said in the link you provided and I gotta tell you, I love you man but you really outta run for public office. ;)

[Bill D]

Wouldn't upgrading the hardrive on a Tivo void the warranty??
Also no UHF remote is a big deal for some of us, and I'm not buying those ugly pyramids, especiallu since you still need a line of sight to the pyramids

[Halfsek]

Warrenty? Bah! The DirecTivo stuff is so far superior that you don't need no stinking warranty. UHF? Overrated. The cheaper price and channel options of DTV more than offsets the slight inconvenience of not having UHF.
:)

[TimL]

Sorry Halfsek, I have All I want on Dish..(more than enough) and my 501 has worked nearly flawlessly for a year. For the excellent price I'm paying I love my programming choices (Top 150, Including the Encore themes and some movie channels)I'm sure TIVO is a good product, but I love my PVR!! (will try to get a 508 as soon as I can)

Tim Lones

[Halfsek]

That was actually somewhat of a sarcastic msg, Tim- in reference to one above.

I am a happy 721 user and have no intentions of switching back to DTV. So you and I are on the same team. :)

[TimL]

Halfsek, Sorry for not catching that..It just irks me that there are some that are so blind in their loyalty for one or the other product. As if all your problems will be solved-Just buy a DirecTIVO. I will say I have been lucky not to have any real problems with my PVR 501..and can never see going back to a non-PVR recever. The 508 I mentioned in the above post will replace a 301 in mine and my wife's bedroom.

[Bob Haller]

Well E could buy the rights to use name based recordings.....

[riekl]

Originally posted by Bob Haller
Well E could buy the rights to use name based recordings.....

Assuming of course they are for sale .. if you were Tivo would you sell your main advantage to your competitor for any amount of money ? I dont think so ...

Name based recordings are what diffentiates a PVR (tivo) from a DVR (dish)

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by riekl
Assuming of course they are for sale .. if you were Tivo would you sell your main advantage to your competitor for any amount of money ? I dont think so ...


Seeing as how ReplayTV already has it and is a bigger competitor than Dish is, it's pretty much a moot question.

Dennis

[riekl]

Originally posted by dbronstein


Seeing as how ReplayTV already has it and is a bigger competitor than Dish is, it's pretty much a moot question.

Dennis

How is ReplayTV a bigger competitor ? They have like .. no customers .. its a dying product already

Also I will have to check but I think Tivo is suing Replay for exactly that reason, i believe the name based recording is a patened feature of Tivo.

[zimm0who0net]

Originally posted by dbronstein
Seeing as how ReplayTV already has it and is a bigger competitor than Dish is, it's pretty much a moot question. 

ReplayTV does it slightly different than TiVo.  No doubt those changes were made to get around TiVo's patents.  Similarly, no doubt that ReplayTV has also patented their methodology.  Microsoft/UTV does it slightly different from both ReplayTV and TiVo.  Again, no dobut that Microsoft has patented their implementation.  Finally, Gemstar/TVGuide has a whole slew of patents in this area.

Add in TiVo's, ReplayTV's and Gemstar's proclivity to sue based on Patent infringements (Dish has already been sued *unsuccessfully* by Gemstar over Patents), and you're walking on very dangerous ground. 

E* unfortunately got into the PVR game a little too late and some of the most fertile ground was already staked out.

[raj2001]

Originally posted by Bill D
Wouldn't upgrading the hardrive on a Tivo void the warranty??

Warranty is only 90 days. On the protection plan they don't care. I'd just make sure to swap back the original drive so you don't end up giving away a 120 gig drive.

[Karl Foster]

Originally posted by riekl


i believe the name based recording is a patened feature of Tivo.

Wrong. Ultimatetv on Directv (a Microsoft product) also has name-based recording.

The way a Tivo uses name-based recording may be different, but it isn't the only name-based recording in town.

[raj2001]

Originally posted by zimm0who0net


ReplayTV does it slightly different than TiVo.  No doubt those changes were made to get around TiVo's patents.  Similarly, no doubt that ReplayTV has also patented their methodology.  Microsoft/UTV does it slightly different from both ReplayTV and TiVo.  Again, no dobut that Microsoft has patented their implementation.  Finally, Gemstar/TVGuide has a whole slew of patents in this area.

Add in TiVo's, ReplayTV's and Gemstar's proclivity to sue based on Patent infringements (Dish has already been sued *unsuccessfully* by Gemstar over Patents), and you're walking on very dangerous ground. 

E* unfortunately got into the PVR game a little too late and some of the most fertile ground was already staked out.


I don't buy that. I don't buy it at all. Dish was the first with satellite PVR's so I don't think they entered the game late at all. As far as I see, no one has had an official word from Echostar that patents are preventing name based recording. I don't think DISH is afraid of lawsuits, since they have already been skirting the law in other areas, like with the SHVIA and SYNDEX rules to provide "superstations".

[TerryC]

zimm, I've never used Replay. How does it differ in it's name based recording compared to TiVo?

[dbronstein]

I don't know how TiVo's works, but here's how it worked on my old Replay (a 2000 model). You select the show in the guide to set up the program. Then you can specify which days you want it to look for the show. Doing it this way it would look about an hour before and after the time of the original show, and adjust the record time for longer episodes and such. You could also set up a "theme channel" for a show and it would record every episode on every channel.

Dennis

[Halfsek]

Both Tivo and Replay sued eachother.. but dropped those lawsuits about a month ago (woo hoo for stock prices!).

I would think that Tivo doesn't have the time or the money to pursue another lawsuit. They seem to be doing find making all these deals with other companies.

The beauty of name based recording is that you can have one touch recording- when a commercial is on for a show, your DVR could post a msg saying "Hit <a specific key> to record this show." If you do, then the DVR automatically sets the timer to record that show. Then again, I suppose it could do that with time based, but it wouldn't be as reliable.

[Jacob S]

Dish was first with PVR with the dishplayer 7100 with Microsoft. Either that or Microsoft was out first then Tivo came out then the 501, 508, 721 by Dish.

How do these different companies do name based recordings different from each other?

Can you get an extended warranty with Tivo or the other PVR products (and standalones without DirecTv built in) with name based recording? If so then what is the period of the extended warranty and price?

Also Replay would not truely have name based recording, but something similar to what Dish is going to be doing on adjusting the time of a show if it would change.

Why can't dish have number codes for each show and then you select the codes of the shows you want to record? Or you can search for a show's code then it find the codes to that show. A different show will have a different code, if it is a repeat then it would have a same number as before and if it finds a duplicate then it will not record it again or you can see the duplicate and decide to delete one yourself.

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by Jacob S
Also Replay would not truely have name based recording, but something similar to what Dish is going to be doing on adjusting the time of a show if it would change.

How is Replay's not truly name-based recording? It can record all instances of a show at any time on any channel. And that was the first-generation software. I have no idea if they've improved it since then.

Dennis

[Jacob S]

Originally posted by dbronstein
I don't know how TiVo's works, but here's how it worked on my old Replay (a 2000 model). You select the show in the guide to set up the program. Then you can specify which days you want it to look for the show. Doing it this way it would look about an hour before and after the time of the original show, and adjust the record time for longer episodes and such. You could also set up a "theme channel" for a show and it would record every episode on every channel.

Dennis

This does not sound name-based to me unless I am misunderstanding this.

[Bob Haller]

E had enough financing to buy D. Why not use a bit of that $ and buy TIVO? Name based now NO PROBLEM! Plus they could try to market E to all those TIVO users

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by Jacob S


This does not sound name-based to me unless I am misunderstanding this.

Apparently you are misunderstanding this. You set a program to record Friends. It finds Friends every time it is on and records it. That's the definition of name-based recording.

Dennis

[Halfsek]

Sonic Blue (aka Replay TV) is looking for a buyer or an investor. I suppose E* could look into buying them... or at least invest in the Replay side of the company.

[raj2001]

Originally posted by Bob Haller
E had enough financing to buy D. Why not use a bit of that $ and buy TIVO? Name based now NO PROBLEM! Plus they could try to market E to all those TIVO users

You've got to be joking, right? If you want TiVo, why don't you just get D*?

[raj2001]

Originally posted by Jacob S

Can you get an extended warranty with Tivo or the other PVR products (and standalones without DirecTv built in) with name based recording? If so then what is the period of the extended warranty and price?


You can get extended warranties from some stores (CC, BB). You can also get the DirecTV protection plan for about $5/month which covers all your receivers, switches, dishes and cabling. I've used it already and I got an RMA unit from them with no problem.

[Jacob S]

Hmmm, Dish only charges $2 per month for any hardware on the account. $5 is still a good deal if you have pvr units on an account. I figured that the stores had an extended warranty. I was hoping Tivo and the other pvr companies would have something directly through them that was not too high priced like you have on your tv's available to you that they send to you in the mail after your one year is up, although pricey.

If you pay by the month they do not cover the hardware, just the software, right?

[Halfsek]

Maybe because some people like E* better.

[bunkers]

Just a few comments.

The current market cap of SBLU is ~$ 30 Million -- and TIVO is ~ $ 298 Million (as of 1/31/03 market close). The Market cap of DISH is ~ $12.5 Billion. Certainly, either a joint venture (i.e. the Dish ReplayTV receiver) or an aquisition of the division of some sort would be possible, IMHO. DISH could aquire SBLU for far less than it paid (might pay) for the DTV merger exit clause.

raj2001, even though DISH was the first into the satellite PVR market -- they farmed it out to Microsoft -- and anyone who has watched a charlie chat in the last couple years knows how that went. Its really the same story/excuse that the dishplayer folks know all too well. So I think that failed venture really set them back a couple of years.

Its important to remember that an astonishing > 60% of all current PVR/DVR users are also Satellite TV subscribers. I think that a deal with SBLU/REPLAY makes sense knowing that (a) SBLU is cheap and needing cash, (b) DISH has the cash and customers, (c) this is a quick way to enable internet access (via.
your existing home netowkr), networking, media sharing and better name-based timers.

Remember, wireless networks in the home are going to be HUGE in the next 10 years -- HUGE. Its what broadband needs to really
take off.

Also, if the replayTV units (or a variant with DISH receiver built in) stored the DISH bitstream -- they could store many more hours per GB than they do currently. Maybe a unit with the option to record DISH bitstream (as DISH PVRs do already) AND ALSO record from analog sources as replayTV already does with its mpeg encoder. I want that!

I have also read that in some PVR tests, the replay implementation of name based timers is actually more accurate in some instances than TIVO. It definately IS name based and not just a timeslot based DVR trying to adapt to the EPG better, like DISH PVR(s).

[bunkers]

Oh, and DISH was trying to merge with GMH, which has a market cap of ~ $ 9.8 Billion. So your right folks, they should have the cash to do a lot of things, potentially. I do think its time for DISH to become a big player in the PVR world ... sooner rather than later.

Is is just coincidental that DISH ups its cost by $2 per month -- and now TIVO does the same increase as well?

Hmm (church lady version) ... ?

[riekl]

So ... you want Dish to go buy a PVR company with no brand recognition that keeps going bankrupt ? The current incarnation of Replay will fail in less then 6-9 months .. why on earth would Dish buy it ?

Replay is already burried in heavy litigation for its recording sharing options, the last thing Dish needs is to get involved in that, maybe when the matter is settled (probably 24+ months which Replay will be deader then a doornail by).


Originally posted by bunkers
Just a few comments.

The current market cap of SBLU is ~$ 30 Million -- and TIVO is ~ $ 298 Million (as of 1/31/03 market close). The Market cap of DISH is ~ $12.5 Billion. Certainly, either a joint venture (i.e. the Dish ReplayTV receiver) or an aquisition of the division of some sort would be possible, IMHO. DISH could aquire SBLU for far less than it paid (might pay) for the DTV merger exit clause.

raj2001, even though DISH was the first into the satellite PVR market -- they farmed it out to Microsoft -- and anyone who has watched a charlie chat in the last couple years knows how that went. Its really the same story/excuse that the dishplayer folks know all too well. So I think that failed venture really set them back a couple of years.

Its important to remember that an astonishing > 60% of all current PVR/DVR users are also Satellite TV subscribers. I think that a deal with SBLU/REPLAY makes sense knowing that (a) SBLU is cheap and needing cash, (b) DISH has the cash and customers, (c) this is a quick way to enable internet access (via.
your existing home netowkr), networking, media sharing and better name-based timers.

Remember, wireless networks in the home are going to be HUGE in the next 10 years -- HUGE. Its what broadband needs to really
take off.

Also, if the replayTV units (or a variant with DISH receiver built in) stored the DISH bitstream -- they could store many more hours per GB than they do currently. Maybe a unit with the option to record DISH bitstream (as DISH PVRs do already) AND ALSO record from analog sources as replayTV already does with its mpeg encoder. I want that!

I have also read that in some PVR tests, the replay implementation of name based timers is actually more accurate in some instances than TIVO. It definately IS name based and not just a timeslot based DVR trying to adapt to the EPG better, like DISH PVR(s).

[riekl]

Originally posted by bunkers
Oh, and DISH was trying to merge with GMH, which has a market cap of ~ $ 9.8 Billion. So your right folks, they should have the cash to do a lot of things, potentially. I do think its time for DISH to become a big player in the PVR world ... sooner rather than later.

Is is just coincidental that DISH ups its cost by $2 per month -- and now TIVO does the same increase as well?

Hmm (church lady version) ... ?

It makes absolutely perfect sense :) Oh and Tivo isn't raising their fees .. DTV is.

You see DTV waits for Dish to raise prices, they then get the churn from Dish customers who say thats the last straw switching to DTV, then they up their own service amount and those same customers are in a catch-22 having just signed a one year agreement with DTV.

[bunkers]

Tivo already raised their monthly fees from 9.95/mo to 12.95/mo .

SBLU won't be bankrupt -- and in fact, will be doing much better if they sell one of their assets to a 3rd party.

They have the Rio and GoVideo lines which are also on the rise.
JUst wait till the GoVideo DVD/VCR with 10 minute buffer hits the market -- its going to be big.

Your knowledge of Replay is outdated, it seems. They are not buried in litigation right now. They have gone further to work out those issues than any other company, including TIVO.

[riekl]

Originally posted by bunkers
Tivo already raised their monthly fees from 9.95/mo to 12.95/mo .

SBLU won't be bankrupt -- and in fact, will be doing much better if they sell one of their assets to a 3rd party.

They have the Rio and GoVideo lines which are also on the rise.
JUst wait till the GoVideo DVD/VCR with 10 minute buffer hits the market -- its going to be big.

Your knowledge of Replay is outdated, it seems. They are not buried in litigation right now. They have gone further to work out those issues than any other company, including TIVO.

That 9.95-12.95 is soley for the standalove tivo .. has absolutely nothing to do with the DBS market place. The original poster was talking about Dish's price raise. Trying to compare the two is like saying if AT&T Raises LD rates that is comparable to GE raising the cost of telephones. Two completely differnt uncomparable markets.

As far as replay .. ok you watch them .. they dont have the market share to make it, nor the brand name.

[Jacob S]

Its still $9.99 for DirecTv customers isn't it or $4.99 ?

[riekl]

Originally posted by Jacob S
Its still $9.99 for DirecTv customers isn't it or $4.99 ?

$4.99 unless you have the Premium package in which case the Tivo service is free