HD Camera: Which Media to go with?

[Earl Bonovich]

Okay.

So my 7yrd old, Sony Mini-DV video camera, is due to be retired.

So I have started to shop around....
I am most certainly going to go HD..

But right now, I am trying to identify which is the best Media Formats to go with?

-) Internal HDD
-) Mini-DV
-) Media Chips
-) Other?

I can see pro's and con's of everyone.....
But what do you all think?

[hdtvfan0001]

I'll be following this thread carefully, as I am a month behind you in the exact same search (hope to get one before Easter).

[Stuart Sweet]

You know better than to ask me, as whatever I pick will become obsolete.

That being said, SD card would be my choice as it's the most future proof. I have boxes of tapes I can't play, and I'm glad I dumped them to DVD. But, at the time I could not directly rip them to media files.

The media files themselves may go out of fashion eventually but if you record to SD and dump the result to computer you can keep them up to date by transcoding them in batches if need be.

Did you see the $799 1080p camcorder Panasonic had at CES? A little smaller than a coke can and you can get 5 hours of HD on a 32GB SDHC card. Of course you can use smaller capacity cards too.

Why not a hard drive? They die.

[Drew2k]

Why not a hard drive? They die.I agree. The less moving parts the better.

With SD cards and the like, you could also carry several with you on vacation and swap them out as neeed when they become full.

[Earl Bonovich]

My other problem with an HDD....

Is say on a long vacation....

Need to bring a larger external hard drive or something to download all the video too.... or spend all night uploading back to the home system.

My downside to the chips.... they are expensive, and pretty darn small.
And I am sure I won't be able to pick up the larger sizes at Walgreens if I forgot to empty it, or forgot the chip it self.

Then the Mini-DV... 60 minutes... still a tape (even though I haven't had major problems)...

Plus I have about 60 Mini-DV tapes already... (working to clear them all off to DVD soon).

[Stuart Sweet]

I want to really play with the Panasonic myself, as I need a new camcorder and am delaying the purchase. I want to know if you have to shoot 1080p, or can you shoot 480i wide, 720p, 1080i, etc. Say you could drop down to 720p, I wonder if you'd see a 2x increase in the storage capacity. We all want to preserve those moments but personally I'd probably be happier with 1 card holding 10 hours of 720p than 5 hours of 1080p.

[hdtvfan0001]

I want to really play with the Panasonic myself, as I need a new camcorder and am delaying the purchase. I want to know if you have to shoot 1080p, or can you shoot 480i wide, 720p, 1080i, etc. Say you could drop down to 720p, I wonder if you'd see a 2x increase in the storage capacity. We all want to preserve those moments but personally I'd probably be happier with 1 card holding 10 hours of 720p than 5 hours of 1080p.
You're beginning to convince me that its worth a look. :)

I would prefer to record in 720p or 1080i anyway. I am also a big fan of the SD card storage.

[RAD]

I'd stay away from the hard drive model, would take more power and maybe not as reliable due to moving parts.

[phat78boy]

I have the JVC GZ-HD7 camcorder and I will never go back to tape or DVD. It has a 60GB HDD built in and I have never had a problem. A lot of people give me the "limited" space reason for not going with an HDD, but I don't get it personally.

If you start clean, the HDD will give you over 8 hours of HD recording. This is more then enough for my vacation recordings. On top of that, you can edit on the fly and delete those scenes which didn't come out right. Battery life is right on par with other recorders and there is of course extended batteries.

Editing video is where HDD camcorders really impress me. No capturing, just drag and drop. On top of that, HD-DVD players will play regular DVD's encoded in HD-DVD. You can put about an hour and a half of HD quality video on a DVD-DL and it has played in any HD-DVD I've tried so far. Regular SD quality video is just as easy and comes out really well also.

My cousin has the Sony model and is just as pleased with his. I would definitely recommend an HDD camcorder for anyone looking to upgrade.

[Earl Bonovich]

phat78boy -

With that HDD, when you connect it to a PC...
How long does it take to move the 60gb?
Is it just like one big file?

With my Mini-DV's, I have to playback in realtime... it is digital transfer, just not drag and drop.

[phat78boy]

phat78boy -

With that HDD, when you connect it to a PC...
How long does it take to move the 60gb?
Is it just like one big file?

With my Mini-DV's, I have to playback in realtime... it is digital transfer, just not drag and drop.

It is much faster then realtime, which is a huge plus to me. When you connect it, either firewire or USB 2.0, it acts just like a USB HDD. The OS will assign it a drive letter and you can copy the files you want over and even play them back right from that drive.

The files are actually split up by the start and stop of recording. So depending on your record length is how big the file will be. I haven't had it all the way full yet, but about 50 GB (around 7 hours) downloaded in around 20 minutes.

[Earl Bonovich]

The files are actually split up by the start and stop of recording. So depending on your record length is how big the file will be. I haven't had it all the way full yet, but about 50 GB (around 7 hours) downloaded in around 20 minutes.

Sweet...

I use WinDV to move over the Mini-DV files, and it does that for me as well.. (in realtime though).

10 hours on 60gb... not to bad.

[phat78boy]

I like the way it "cuts" up your scenes. By making each stop and start a new file, putting chapters into a DVD is a cinch. Plus it tags each file so you know exactly when it was from. For those occasions when you leave a recording on it you forgot about.

[smiddy]

My suggestion if to start a trade study and list all the features you require, any that don't have that feature are show stoppers. Then, based on the features rank them and compare how they stack up. I left out cost as it is always a limiting factor for most folks, which will ultimately force most folks into a certain item. If you have real deep pockets it won't matter though.

When I purchased my Canon ESO Camera, I looked at several review boards for critical reviews on multiple cameras to see what was working and what wasn't. I would suspect that video cameras have similar boards out there, I'd survey them to get a feel for what is hot and what is not.

Additionally, there are likely a few magazines on video cameras out there that you can review too. The combination of all of this will give you an informed decision and you'll be comfortable in it because of the research.

But, you asked, what do I think...I think you should research it some. :D I haven't yet, but with the 6 month old smiddlett starting to eat solid food, Mrs. Smiddy is itching for one too. The old one doesn't do what it does anymore either. And with HD...ya gotta have it. I would want the video compatible with Music, Photos, & More though ;) :p :lol:

[hdtvfan0001]

Despite some good reports, I personally would still be leary of using a HD-based device. I still see it as a source of hardware failure issues, but that's just me.

There are a couple of newer units out with large capacity support via SD cards, which would be a preference for numerous reasons.

In the past, both JVC and Panasonic have generally done an outstanding job with their imagery quality and relaible storage media.

It does sound impressive that the HD unit described seems to be working so well for phat78boy.

[Earl Bonovich]

Oh I have been doing my looking around, based on other features...

But the Media Storage type is a BIG factor in which cameras I wil be looking at.

[machavez00]

the Pany HDC-SD5 uses 1Gb per 10 minutes on the highest quality settings

[4DThinker]

Tape players had their advantage, for exactly the reason HDD cameras are flawed. You could swap out tapes, and even mail your filled tapes home to be there when you got back from vacation. With Apple's Airbook using flash drives as an option, the manufacturing capacity may increase and the price will come down. The price of little hard drives is coming down, and the capacities are going up. There is a tiny 160GB HDD out there now they are using in iPods.

Ultimately I think someone will find a way to package those little HDDs in a removeable cartridge. You fill up the first 80 gigs, then pull it out and put in a new one. That same cartridge size will hold a flash drive, the 80GB or the 160GB or whatever they come out with next. That's my prediction. If you can wait a little longer I wouldn't be surprised to see the first versions by June this year.

[Chris Blount]

I have had a tape based Mini-DV HD camcorder for almost 2 years now. Having the tapes as a backup is a big plus for me and the PQ is fantastic.

I agree though. Media storage might be the way to go. I am a little leery about HDD camcorders.

[ibglowin]

They are tried and true. Most storage at the least price. If there good enough for the TV stations there good enough for me! :)

[DCSholtis]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QSNNAA/sr=1-5/qid=1201069378/ref=noref?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1201069378&sr=1-5

I've got that model, Earl. You use either an SD or SDHC card. Using a 4GB SDHC card gets you 5 hours of recording time. I got it mainly for its size, easy to hold with one hand.

[Stuart Sweet]

They are tried and true. Most storage at the least price. If there good enough for the TV stations there good enough for me! :)

I believe that tape is used only for short term storage at many TV stations, everything goes to media servers.

[hdtvfan0001]

Earl:

This is one of the better objective pieces I've seen on HD camcorders...

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/photo_and_video/hd-camcorders/review.html

[jutley]

Earl,

Thanks for starting this thread. I have also been considering upgrading to an HD camcorder and this has given me some great food for thought. Let us know what you decide and why. Thanks also to those that have posted their thoughts. Lots of great thinkers here.

[urfast1]

I've had the Panasonic SDR-H200 camcorder for a couple of months now. It has a 30 GB hard drive and you can record video to an SD/SDHC card as well. I love the option to record to either hard drive or SD card. I did a lot of research before my purchase and am totally happy with my decision to go with this model. I didn't want to go the HD route yet since the format is still somewhat up in the air and due to the limited playback options right now. The SD card works great and if the hard drive were to ever fail, the SD card will alwys be there. As far as transferring video, it's a breeze and the video quality looks great. Panasonic makes some good stuff and I'm sure you'll like the SD card capability. I was a little concerned about battery life with this camera because it looked like a small battery but I am very surprised how long a charge lasts. It hasn't been a factor at all.

[4DThinker]

As for SD cards always being there, don't count on it. My first digital camera and PDA had smartmedia slots. Apparently smartmedia suffers from some capacity limitation that eventually made it obsolete. I find it very hard to find a smartmedia card anywhere, even though both the camera and that PDA still work.

I'll agree that it is likely that SD cards will hang on for longer than smartmedia did, but with our ever-increasing demand for high capacity storage I suspect the end solution will be world-wide wifi that allows every little device to use servers on the internet to store content. You've noticed the eyefi SD card, haven't you? You fill your SD card with pictures or video, then when somewhere with a wifi connection the content is transferred back to your home server or some web based server.

[Earl Bonovich]

I keep leaning more towards the Mini-DV...
Mostly because my wife is used to it.... and I have about 70+ tapes already

Just gives me the incentive to get them all dumped down to DVD.

And I am really liking the looks of the:

Canon VIXIA HV30
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=16206

Another upside to the MiniDV... is that it is slightly larger, and may fit in my bigger hands better....

[PTravel]

Consumer HD camcorders are either AVCHD or HDV. In theory, both compression codecs are, more or less, equivalent, and AVCHD is, in theory, more efficient. However, all consumer camcorder manufacturers arbitrarily limit the data bandwidth of their AVCHD camcorders to between 12 and 17 mbps, despite the fact that the spec permits up to 25mbps (all consumer HDV machines are 25 mbps).

AVCHD camcorders at the arbitrarily-limited bandwidths have significant compression-related digital artifacts that noticeably, and sometimes dramatically, degrade the video image. These problems are not shared by HDV machines.

To my understanding SD and HDD consumer camcorders all use AVCHD. This makes selection of a consumer camcorder easy: if you care about video quality, get an HDV machine, and that means getting a miniDV-based camcorder. As a bonus, miniDV is a robust archiving medium -- it's cheap and you can keep your raw footage for decades.

The current leader among consumer HDV machines is the Canon HV20 (and now, HV30). I have an HV20, and I recommend it highly.

[techm8n]

Earl,

I recommend getting an AVCHD hard drive based HD camcorder. Sony, Panasonic, and Canon makes AVCHD camcorders.

I have the Sony HDR-SR1 AVC HD 30GB Handycam Camcorder for about 15 months now and have been very happy with it. The 1080i HD video quality I've taken looks great on my 50" Plasma TV. I'm able to transfer/sync recordings to my PC easily. I can also convert HD quality videos to DVD. Or you can keep the HD quality and burn them onto a Blu-ray disc.


Why AVCHD format? Because Blu-ray won the HD format war and will be the HD disc standard. AVCHD can be converted into Blu-ray. You can also play/stream AVCHD files (.m2ts) on a Playstation 3. AVCHD is based on the MPEG4 compression.

Why a hard drive based camcorder? Easy to transfer your recordings to a PC. Ease of video editing/authoring. Many authoring/editing software now support the AVCHD and Blu-ray format.

Other features I like.
Direct Burn to DVD
4 hours of HD or 7 hours of SD recording.
Dolby® Digital 5.1 Audio
USB 2.0 Interface
4.0 Megapixel still-capture
AVCHD converts to Blu-ray

I've researched and found that people has successfully streamed AVCHD videos through Tversity and TwonkyMedia. I'm going to try to stream my AVCHD (.m2ts) videos to my HR21 via Tversity or TwonklyMedia tonight. I'll open a new thread and inquire if someone here has tried this before.

I recommend these two newer Sony model AVCHD camcorders. HDR-SR12 120GB ($1089) and HDR-SR11 60GB ($929). These are Pricegrabber.com prices.

Sony HDR-SR12
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665291496&langId=-1

Sony HDR-SR11
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665291500

[Earl Bonovich]

Thank you for the details.

I am still leaning towards the Mini-DV...

Why?

There are times that we can go away for a while.... and will record more then 4hrs... and won't have the opportunity to dump it down to a laptop or someother storage media.

We already own about 50 mini-dv tapes... and the wife is familiar with it.

Canon just released their latest minidv hd camera...

While I haven't made the purchase yet... that is the way I am leaning

[techm8n]

Thank you for the details.

I am still leaning towards the Mini-DV...

Why?

There are times that we can go away for a while.... and will record more then 4hrs... and won't have the opportunity to dump it down to a laptop or someother storage media.

We already own about 50 mini-dv tapes... and the wife is familiar with it.

Canon just released their latest minidv hd camera...

While I haven't made the purchase yet... that is the way I am leaning

The 4 hours (HD) or 7 hours (SD) specs is for the 30GB version. The version I recommended has 120GB which equates to 16 hours (HD) or 28 hours (SD).

One of the key feature to keep in mind when shopping for an HD camcorder is the recording format. Make sure that the camcorder's recording format can be converted into Blu-ray and keep the HD resolution. It's not ideal or efficient to connect your camcorder to your TV and swap mini-dv tapes when watching your videos.

It's easier to archive all your recordings onto a Blu-ray disc and watch them on your Blu-ray player. I'm sure you'll eventually want to share HD videos to family and friends who will eventually own our new HD standard format Blu-ray player.

You'll also save $$ on Mini-DV tapes if you get the AVCHD/Hard Drive camcorder. Transferring recordings to your PC will also be faster. Don't worry about the wife, transferring recordings is as easy as syncing a Palm device to a PC.

[Earl Bonovich]

The 4 hours (HD) or 7 hours (SD) specs is for the 30GB version. The version I recommended has 120GB which equates to 16 hours (HD) or 28 hours (SD).

One of the key feature to keep in mind when shopping for an HD camcorder is the recording format. Make sure that the camcorder's recording format can be converted into Blu-ray and keep the HD resolution. It's not ideal or efficient to connect your camcorder to your TV and swap mini-dv tapes when watching your videos.

It's easier to archive all your recordings onto a Blu-ray disc and watch them on your Blu-ray player. I'm sure you'll eventually want to share HD videos to family and friends who will eventually own our new HD standard format Blu-ray player.


Most of our post viewing, will be after I have loaded the content into the computer and used editings suites to make final versions of the content.

So for most of it... it will be down-rezed to DVD's... and saved (on hard drives) for when HD Optical burners are more practical (or access via media players, such as the HR20*)

For the last 7 years we have been using the Mini-DV's... and it really hasn't been a hinderance when watching content.

But I do appriciate the comments and the ideas on the other formats.

[techm8n]

Most of our post viewing, will be after I have loaded the content into the computer and used editings suites to make final versions of the content.

So for most of it... it will be down-rezed to DVD's... and saved (on hard drives) for when HD Optical burners are more practical (or access via media players, such as the HR20*)

For the last 7 years we have been using the Mini-DV's... and it really hasn't been a hinderance when watching content.

But I do appriciate the comments and the ideas on the other formats.

Sure, no problem.

I'm going to try to stream my AVCHD (.m2ts files) video recordings to my HR21 using Twonky or Tversity. I'll let you know if it works.

And Blu-ray burners are now affordable at $359.

[Earl Bonovich]

Sure, no problem.

I'm going to try to stream my AVCHD (.m2ts files) video recordings to my HR21 using Twonky or Tversity. I'll let you know if it works.

And Blu-ray burners are now affordable at $359.

If I can stream to my XBOX360 or the HR20/21... I can wait a while to 2nd/3rd gen burners are available.

I purchased multiple 1st gen burners over the years... but since I have a viable option this time... I can wait.

[dave29]

i have been wanting to buy a new video camera for a while now and i think that you have helped me make up my mind on what to get!!! thanks for all the info. BTW, do you have a link to that BD burner, and is it an external drive?



The 4 hours (HD) or 7 hours (SD) specs is for the 30GB version. The version I recommended has 120GB which equates to 16 hours (HD) or 28 hours (SD).

One of the key feature to keep in mind when shopping for an HD camcorder is the recording format. Make sure that the camcorder's recording format can be converted into Blu-ray and keep the HD resolution. It's not ideal or efficient to connect your camcorder to your TV and swap mini-dv tapes when watching your videos.

It's easier to archive all your recordings onto a Blu-ray disc and watch them on your Blu-ray player. I'm sure you'll eventually want to share HD videos to family and friends who will eventually own our new HD standard format Blu-ray player.

You'll also save $$ on Mini-DV tapes if you get the AVCHD/Hard Drive camcorder. Transferring recordings to your PC will also be faster. Don't worry about the wife, transferring recordings is as easy as syncing a Palm device to a PC.

[heaphus]

Consumer HD camcorders are either AVCHD or HDV. In theory, both compression codecs are, more or less, equivalent, and AVCHD is, in theory, more efficient. However, all consumer camcorder manufacturers arbitrarily limit the data bandwidth of their AVCHD camcorders to between 12 and 17 mbps, despite the fact that the spec permits up to 25mbps (all consumer HDV machines are 25 mbps).

AVCHD camcorders at the arbitrarily-limited bandwidths have significant compression-related digital artifacts that noticeably, and sometimes dramatically, degrade the video image. These problems are not shared by HDV machines.

To my understanding SD and HDD consumer camcorders all use AVCHD. This makes selection of a consumer camcorder easy: if you care about video quality, get an HDV machine, and that means getting a miniDV-based camcorder. As a bonus, miniDV is a robust archiving medium -- it's cheap and you can keep your raw footage for decades.

The current leader among consumer HDV machines is the Canon HV20 (and now, HV30). I have an HV20, and I recommend it highly.

I have been looking into this as well, lately. I keep trying to gravitate toward the HDD/SD models, but I keep coming back to mini-DV for exactly the reasons that PTravel has layed out here. I have always kept my standard def. tapes for backup. I don't know, I may stick with my standard def. Canon awhile, and see what comes out down the road.

[Slip Jigs]

I prefer MiniDV for one reason - you get totally uncompressed video. I'm not totally sure about the HDD cameras if they are uncompresed or not, but the other storage types are, newer ones are Mpeg4. That's fine in many cases, but I'm a purist and I like the best quality to start with.

As stated, the tape is the backup of the footage, so it's a cheap solution. There are downsides tho, not just the linear capture time. HD video eats up HUGE amounts of disk space when captured, and you have to have a powerful computer to edit and render it. It's worth it if you're going to burn BluRay discs, but no if you're just uploading to You Tube.

Also, I use Premiere Element which doesn't support AVCHD, and there may be other editors that don't either.

[techm8n]

i have been wanting to buy a new video camera for a while now and i think that you have helped me make up my mind on what to get!!! thanks for all the info. BTW, do you have a link to that BD burner, and is it an external drive?

Here's the link. This one is an internal Blu-ray burner.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106037

They're starting to come out with external Blu-ray burners but they're still expensive. Around $1000.

[techm8n]

I was NOT able to stream AVCHD (.m2ts files) videos to my HR21 using both Twonky and Tversity.

But I did successfully stream them to my PS3 using either Twonky or Tversity. Twonky natively support .m2ts files. When I use Tversity, I have to rename my video files from .m2ts to .m2t for Tversity to recognize it in the library.

This is awesome. I can now stream/view all of my Sony HD camcorder recordings archived in my server/PC to my PS3. I'll eventually burn them to Blu-ray but I'll wait a bit for the prices to go down on the burner and discs.