What if we turn into a anti E site too?

[Bob Haller]

The other site is definitely pro D given the experiences folks including management had there. Then we have the new bugs showing up in the 721.

The newsgroups have also gone pro D largely over the bugs and outages, and declining customer support from E.

We appear headed the same way. With long term E supporters like Darrel Boldt. Bill R, and others including myself getting tired of E and the poor service.

Now will E really care? I USED to think were important, but now I question that. In the beginning E depended on small retailers and the net for growth.

Are they now so big these no longer matter?

Are we meaningless?

[Mark Lamutt]

Bob, DBSTalk is NOT Pro-E* or ANTI-E* or PRO-D* or ANTI-D*, and for that matter, neither is DBSForums. It's the users that fall into one of those camps, not the places.

The fact of the matter is that all subscribers from both services are just numbers on a computer screen. Individually, we don't matter to either one of them. That's the way the business is.

[Bob Haller]

Well I meant if the users become pro one or another. At that point you could say the site falls into one camp or another.


If this occurs I wonder if E will care. I mean newbies might get scared off of E reading about the various bugs.

I guess my question, does E care about its public reputation on these sites?

I used to be told by many at E we really appreciate the feedback from the boards, it tells us whats going good and what needs work.

Has that changed? Is anyone even listening?

[gcutler]

Bob, While I think that some bug issues are appreciated for being discussed here (thus helping to document). That E* may consider our complaining to be just a bunch of 1000 whiners, while the other 7,999,000 subscribers are totally happy. And while more and more "non-technical" people subscribe (and they only get two 301s) the # of happy subs probably goes up, making our #s even less. So it seems those who are ignorant or impervious to the PVR technology probably are sitting happy with their 301. If something goes wrong, chances are it is a hardware failure, nothing inherently wrong with the SW or design. Which shows that Ignorance is Bliss when it comes to Dish.

My only question is how would D* handle these level of complaints or is it outside of their business model to let beta-hardware/software out the door so you get a stable if not fully working product???

[Bob Haller]

My only question is how would D* handle these level of complaints or is it outside of their business model to let beta-hardware/software out the door so you get a stable if not fully working product???
__________________

Yeah that doesnt appear to be a problem for them. Harry raised a good point at the other site. IT USED to be E responded to these sites. New channel ADDED, Problem FIXED, but NOW the response isnt the same. I think we have largely lost what impact we had. Individuals at E might care and try to help but in the BIG picture were largely ignored. If I owned E stock I would consider selling. Companies that ignore their customers histoirically dont do well........

[IndyMichael]

Hi, I just found this forum. I switched from digital cable to Dish Net a few month's ago, and couldn't be happier. I have a 508 on the main tv and also have two 301's on my other tv's.

[Scott Greczkowski]

We are not a pro anything site, when a company does good they get the credit they deserve, when they do something dumb we let them have it.

We are here to HELP all DBS users, no matter which company they use. Some other forums have forgotten that we are just users helping users. We are not satellite gods who wave the flags for one team or another. We just want to give everyone the best information and help that we can.

[firephoto]

What if we turn into a anti E site too?

Why?
DBSTalk.com is great for getting answers to all the questions I have about dbs, or just about anything actually. If you just need a place to bash E* then why not do it on these so called pro D* sites?

Even with the great number of members here I don't think we represent most E* customers. So if E* was to just flat out ignore everything here then I wouldn't find that unacceptable. We are the minority so we don't carry much weight. Now I'm sure they take notice to what goes on here, but just because they don't say "we got the new feature idea for the 721 from bob at DBSTalk.com" during the charlie chat doesn't mean they are ignoring the customers. ;)

Tom

[Chris Blount]

E* and D* are both here and read these forums. Trust me. On an average work day, we will see at least 4 active IP addresses all day long coming from E* and 1 or 2 coming from D*.

Oh yes, they read these forums and are listening to us.

[Bob Haller]

But are they DOING anything? Not individually but in the BIG picture?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Bob sometimes I wonder the same thing.

I will be honest, the thing that fustrates me most about Echostar is that they seem to be about just getting new customers, after your ther customer you are tossed by the wayside. Lately it seems as though Dish Network would rather have people go to DirecTV then try to keep them on as customers.

I have been trying to get a $99 deal to upgrade my Dishplayers wih no avail, I even told them I would sign a 1 year contract if they would upgrade me. I really don't understand, I am a good customer and my bill is over $120 a month, you would think they would not want to loose a customer like me.

Dish Network needs to work on keeping existing customer happy, not drive them away with their scripted answers. My cell phone company now has a plan which I think Dish should think about, after a set period of time I get an equipment credit which lets me buy new equipment. It keeps me a loyal customer and it keeps me with the latest equipment.

On the software side of things I really wish I could show people whats going on, let's put it this way the software teams (especially the 721 team) is putting a lot of time and effort into making their products the best they can be, however politics, and legal troubles prevent a lot of breathtaking things from seeing the light of day.

I know a lot of people scream all the time, "why doesn't Dish add this feature... Why dosent DirecTV add ...." and the honest answer is the probably already have.

We thank both DirecTV and Echostar for visiting us every day, they are listening.

[Bob Haller]

Scott, Did you get that contact info for the CEO@echo office? Cant hurt to try her although I have passed it around so much she is probably sick of hearing Bob Haller told me to call....

I will be glad to give it to you or post it somewhere.

There was a definite shift in customer service, retention, and care over time.

I used to hope they payed attention to our concerns. Now I think the upper beancounters have taken control and could care less. Charlie talks of concern for retention. I doubt he is even aware of this stuff, or if he is he is depressed and doesnt care.

[tampa8]

Let me present a little different perspective. I have or have had a 4700, 4900, and 508. As a current customer I got the 508 for $199 which I do not feel is a bad price. All have performed nearly flawlessly. A few hiccups but rarely and not bad. I used to think they changed channels a little slowly but after using my neighbors Charter Cable box, it is much better with a better guide. I rarely lose the picture, though over the last couple of months it has happend breifly as posted here. My rates just went DOWN and I will be getting two additional movie channels. When I have called to have programming changed it has gone smoothly, but before I found these forums and called Dish for answers, I will say technical questions are not what CSR's do best. But always polite. Since 1999 there has been one billing error - charging me too much. It was fixed with one call and without asking I got three free months of HBO. (I won't even start with talking about how many problems Cable had in this area and how hard it was to get them fixed) Dish does not presently have my locals (Direct Tv does) and it is a problem because we cannot get real good over the air reception on analog. However we do qualify for distant locals, and I do have a digital - HD receiver for over the air (RCA DTC 100) and can get CBS and ABC most of the time but because of our distance from the transmitters signal does break up at times. Bottom line what do I really have to complain about? Sure the picture could be less compressed, but by comparison it is MUCH better than our Cable. My situation certainly can be different from others, especially those with the DP. But I think we do have to remember there are many who are satisfied with Dish. I have to say, what really made me think about just who posts here and what their motive is, was the recent posts (rants at time) about the $2 increase, and how it would put dealers out of business. My thoughts were confirmed when I have seen little or no such rants about Direct TV raising their rates. Especially when these increases did not affect all Dish customers.(I had a decrease) I obvously still like this forum and respect and agree with many who have suggestions or complaints. But sometimes we go over the top.

[RichW]

My take on it is this. We who frequent either or both of the major DBS forums are mostly folks who were riding the wave and an expanding new marke. New Channels were being added and new types of equipment, like PVRs, we being introduced.

Now that DBS is a more mature market and both comapnies are focusing on profitability, much of the thrill is gone for us "techies".
DBS is truly a mass market now and we early customers are just a footnote in history.

DBS is litle more exciting than buying a refridgerator these days. Yet people buy them (and subscribe to DBS) every day. we are not special anymore, nor really should we expect to be.

[Bob Haller]

Reasons to be upset...

Not returning of mail to CEO@echstar THATS RUDE!:(

Buggy software causing grief.

Paying shipping to replace defective 721 thats BRAND new.

10% of new PVRs are defective according to Metro

Being beta testers.

Long delayed receivers miss basic featrures that are slowly added creating bugs.

A $600 receiver should have the best premium features even if E has to spend $ for the rights or litigate it.

The dippy DP mess.

Long term subs are NOT rewarded for loyalty, they are treated like mushrooms

Jim and Charlie arent kept informed of satellite outages, and more than likely other problems.

BVOTTOM LINE. the company doesnt appear to care.

[jzoomer]

Disagreement on what we like is okay but it seems that a lot of post replies are off the original topic or geared to flame bait. For example, someone may post that they have a problem with Dish equipment, it would not be unusual to see a post to buy Directv equipment. Not much help.

There is a danger that a forum become too divisive that people looking for information won't go there. An example of this was dvd forum which I enjoyed reading years ago. When the divx push by some stores happened it created a division that caused flames on almost every post. I stopped reading that news group because it was a waste of time.

[Jacob S]

You are correct sir. Why corrupt the forums of its useful knowledge? These forums are to help aleviate problems and to help each other out and stay up to date on things and if things get too harsh then it will not do that. Maybe there should be a flame forum or something seperate from this one.

[TimL]

There are several reasons I come to this forum (and DBS Forums)
1. Reasoned thoughtful opinions on the state of DBS which I have become very interested in the last couple of years.
2. Help for various problems/glitches with Equipment and software of which I have had very few problems.
3. News and things to be aware of..especially when it comes to DISH Network.
4. This may sound corny..but to make a few new friends/acquaintences and have a little fun besides.

Everybody has their own opinion about which provider and equipment is best or works best for them. We can express those opinions without flames. Last summer I came close to leaving both forums because there was too much flaming within each forum and between the forums. I appreciate Scott and Chris here as well as Dan and Stephen and others over at DBS Forums for keeping things civil and as flame free as possible..I can imagine it is not always easy to do so, But as I said last year we need to keep the focus on helping people with DBS and enjoying the technology.

Sorry for the length of the post but both DBS Talk and DBS Forums are great sites and deserve to be congratulated for it.

Tim Lones
Canton, Ohio
DISH TOP 150
PVR 501, 301
Sky Angel (since 1999)

[Chris Blount]

At last, a voice of reason. Thanks Tim for your comments. I agree with you. Both forums are great and the focus should always be helping people and discussing DBS. I personally think it's great that we have 2 forums with very different moderation styles. It keeps the world of DBS discussion from going stale.

To this day I still don't understand how the following type of discussion creeps into threads on either forum:

http://www.dbsforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=003120 (scroll about half way down)

I only quote the above thread because it's the latest incarnation of the same old sour grapes that still seem to exist. Why can't we all just get along?

Bob,

I really don't think we will turn into an anti-anything site. Everyone has an opinion about both services ( E* & D* ) so it would be next to impossible to be one way or the other permanantly. Right now the pendulum is swaying one way. It will swing back soon enough. You can count on that.

[Bob Haller]

Chris I certinally hope your right. The present direction leads me to believe that in the future when anyone comes to the net for info, they will be directed to buy D . Once someone espically a newbie, sees endless discussions of E tech problems they will be concerned for good reason and leery of investing money in E services and equiptement. Honestly this is how it should be and sadly Echostar will be the big looser.

Someone with clout at E needs to impress this to upper management including Charlie and Jim.

We arent a isolated problem. We are reflecting a serious danger to E. True perhaps were a vocal minority. But the average sub must be having the same sort of problems we are.

If its not eventually someone is going to take this to the media. DBS will be the big looser when that occurs. I really dont want to see them dragged thru the mud of a consumer reports or 60 minutes investigation on poor service.

They should make the $99 DP upgrade official, drop that $10 charge foor DP pVRs. Work hard to only sell receivers that have had the software complete BEFORE the first box leaves for a sub, Build feature rich units from day one. Just because they can modify software doesnt mean they should. They should do studies on what subs want BEFORE they design the box. They should have a IMMEDIATE plan if a future software problem knocks any number of subs offline for any reason. Example put top 60 up for free access till the problem is solved.

None of this is rocket science, its just good business......

[TimL]

Chris:
Just read the postings over at DBS Forums..seems such old news. I don't want to feel like I have to choose one forum over the other. I'll be E-mailing you shortly about something. Just to give you a heads up

Tim Lones

[Jacob S]

There are two main satellite providers just like there are two main satellite forums. Just because there is another does not mean one is bad, or one is worse than the other. It just means that there are two forums, or services, that all serve the same purpose.

I think the administration of these sites is part of what makes these sites possible. I remember reading on some alt sites a good while back where there was no administrators and things were not as well organized and well developed as these two sites are.

If things were flames all of the time things would get off topic too much.

Most news is bad news that you hear, not the good news. How about the good things that are happening? All of the local channels that have went up for people, having a pvr product available at all, the improvements that have been made, more features. Just because there is going to be bad things happening does not mean that there are not any good things happening either.

Sometimes we dwell on the bad things too much and overlook the good things. We do have our opinions and others should be respected as well, but there is a limit to those and one cannot force someone else to think the same way and force opinions over on them.

I do not come on here to flame, although if I feel that something is not right, I will mention it, and see if others do agree with me or not, because I want someone else's opinion too to see if it is just me or if it a common problem among others, not to try to force my opinions on others.

I also come on here to try to find out information, keep up to date on things, and to help others out. This is a hobby for me, as well as a small business in which is what I enjoy to do. I may not put many systems in all the time but its what I like to do because I get to meet new people and make a little doing it because everyone has to make something. Whatever I do online is not for profit though and for hobby.

[Bob Haller]

Is anyoine else concerned tha darrelB, bill r, myself and other long term E supporters are all very cncerned about the direction E is headed?

[FTA Michael]

Chris et al,

From my skewed perspective, the E* folks are split into two camps: Those who hate their DishPlayers, and those who don't own one. :)

Seriously, as a SA Lifetime TiVo user, I read all the fuss about those darn boxes and it sounds like trying to keep Windows 3.0 from crashing. Users love the improvements but hate the erratic performance of the beast. If we could keep the DP complaints from leaking into the rest of discussions, that would reduce 60% of the acidity on the boards here. IMHO.

Me, I'm here to listen to cool inside info, moan gently about my wish list, and try to share what little I've learned. Have a great week everybody!

[Jacob S]

Yes, I am concerned about where E* is heading and things are just not as they were. I do agree with you Bob on that. Charlie used to have more excitement in the industry as a hobby but now it seems to be more about money. He had some excitement when it came to a merger, but it was also excitement not only of new technology but of money as well. I have seen a BIG change with E* since 1997 to now. When did things take a turn to be like this? I think when someone gets from small to big this is what happens in almost every case.

Charlie wanting to sell the company should show you that its more about money than it used to be. I think he did this for more of a hobby before than he does now. When this stuff was new it was exciting but the excitement is gone because satellite is the norm now. When something comes out for the first time it is exciting but then you get spoiled by it.

I was a long-term E* supporter but after what they are not trying to pull on me as a retailer, CSR's badmouthing me to customers and lying as well, and all of these other things going on, I do not think the same anymore. I still like how they set things up with programming and so forth but its their customer service and corporate dealings that need fixing.

[Scott Greczkowski]

One thing that upsets me and that I find quite slanderous is what Dan Collins has posted at DBS Forums (Quoted below)

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But while the management of that forum sends emails to some members asking them to stop being so critical of Echostar, I find claims of neutrality to be a bit hard to swallow. I'm not trying to start a spat here, just pointing out the facts - I've had a couple of these emails forwarded to me.

Has ANYONE here gotten an email like mentioned above from any of the staff here at DBSTalk.COM?

I have asked Dan for a copy of these message but have received NOTHING.

How many people have we written to privately to get them in contact with eaither provider to help them out? I know we have done this with quite a few but never EVER do I know where any staff member have asked ANYONE to stop being so crucial of Echostar.

Up until this point I have not know Dan Collins to be a liar. Its sad that he seems to be one now.

[Jacob S]

Well I think whatever differences there are should be settled. I remember I had said certain things before and Dan had gotten onto me about it but he had a right to because I had mentioned it the wrong way and apologized for that.

Opinions are opinions. I think one can go overbored on opinions though but as long as the opinions are not lies.

[Cheyenne]

Perhaps Dan C. has a hidden agenda?

[Jacob S]

Now now, lets not assume things, that is what causes problems sometimes, people sometimes misunderstand taking things the wrong way. I am not for sure but I think a moderator quit on that site and I am not for sure what the reason was, it might have been because of some negativing, or another reason, I am not going to assume anything, but I know that there were others that quit coming on because of negative comments, even a mention of a lawsuit on one site because of things said.

[Nick]

This whole thread is a waste. I am "overbored" with it.

Bob Haller is enamored with the sound of his own voice. He thinks E* stinks because they don't 'listen' to him anymore. If his emails to D* are as flaky and incoherent as his forum posts, I can understand why they pay him no mind. He has no clue as to how to deal with people in order to get problems rectified. Ranting and raving and being a general pain in the ass won't win him any points in Littleton.

[George_F]

I'm with you Nick!!!!

I feel for Bob, apparently he has a problem or problems with receivers, but Damn, I'm getting tired of hearing him whine in every thread......He's dragging this forum down!!!!
Bob, I highly recommend you switch to DirecTV, you will add years to your life.

I own a Bed and Breakfast, I've probably owned 25 different Echostar receivers with no or very little problems, Echostars CSR's have been great. I would highly recommend Dish Network to my friends and family.

Bob, don't worry about Echostars direction there heading, they will be just fine.........sheesh. :nono:

[johnsmith22]

I have been with E* for a year now, the first couple of months with the 501 were problematical but now I find it does everything I want it to do and I don't have any of the horror stories we see so frequently here. In fact I find E* gives me what I want so even if I could move I would not even be contemplating it.

I often wonder when I see the great winges about E* here and particularly on DBS Forums which definately has a management bias towards D* why the wingers don't just jump ship and move over to D*, why grin and bear something when you either dislike the service, have no faith in the equipment or despise the CEO?

Perhaps the real reason is in their heart of hearts they know the grass is no greener on the other side, after all you are just a name in a computer to both companys.

[gcutler]

Nick, Pretty harsh words. :(

[Jacob S]

Maybe they do not want to pay for equipment to switch over seeing how much money they have in the pvr units or will not get superstations if they switch or under a commitment for a year and there is nothing they can do. There is no refunds on the satellite equipment.

[Darkman]

Bob - relax a bit man, eh?
You can get a heart attack putting so much energy into those posts...It is only TV!

[Tim]

Is anyoine else concerned tha darrelB, bill r, myself and other long term E supporters are all very cncerned about the direction E is headed?

Not really. In fact I just dumped cable for a new 508. Got rid of my grandfathered sports pack on D*. In 6 months if I don't like it I'll go a different direction. It's hard for me to be "concerned" over my television provider. I get concerned over much more trivial matters, such as my 401(k), Iraq, and whether or not my kids will be affected by school redistricting in my county.

[cnsf]

I just want to chime in here and say that I learned quite a bit from this site, found everyone to be extremely helpful and actually see some of the discussions come to a solution on the E* side.

The value of this site is unquantifiable and those who administer it are nothing but impartial and objective and donate their time for a cause they care about, not for money.

[PWenger]

And just a note, I was actually referred to DBSTalk by DBSForums...I had a question, and someone there was kind enough to link me to a thread here. In any institution, hobby, etc, there are going to be tensions. I just enjoy the news and have received invaluable help from both sites.

[TimL]

Despite any real or perceived slant toward D* or E* I would love to think of both sites as supplementing each other rather than being rivals. As I wrote in an e-mail to a DBSTalk founder several of the more active DBS Forums regulars also regularly post here including myself. There will be disagreements but lets remember the big picture. We are all members of the same community. Let's not let sniping get in the way of that. There are no other places on the net you can get the advice and info that you can get at DBS Forums and DBSTalk. I go no place else And I use both sites equally. Lets just keep the focus is all I am saying.

[dbronstein]

Originally posted by Tim
Not really. In fact I just dumped cable for a new 508. Got rid of my grandfathered sports pack on D*. In 6 months if I don't like it I'll go a different direction. It's hard for me to be "concerned" over my television provider. I get concerned over much more trivial matters, such as my 401(k), Iraq, and whether or not my kids will be affected by school redistricting in my county.

Me too. I've got a lot more important things to worry about than the direction of my TV service company. As long as I can keep getting the channels I want for a reasonable price and the service is good, I'm fine with Dish. I've had Dish for 2.5 years now and I have no complaints about the service I've had so far.

Dennis

[razorbackfan]

I've subscribed to E* for about 7 months and couldn't be happier. I've called the CSR's 5 times to change programming and each time I was met with polite, nice people. I have no complaints about E* or their service. I don't care which satellite is carrying which channel at 148 or whatever, or that this particular switch is better than another. I turn my tv on, turn my E* on and watch tv. It works, and I'm happy. AND it's a LOT cheaper than Cox Cable!

[aboz]

I have been a E* sub for 7 years, I have endured blackouts on my 4000 reciever years ago. I made them send me replacement recievers at thier cost, eventhough they were out of warranty. I have been always been treated with respect by thier CSR's, never had a billing problem. When the 501's first came out, I emailed dish and they put me in contact with the head engineer for the 501 project. I kinda found it cool to watch the 501 grow step by step. I am overall pleased with E*. They do have to shore up certain "weak spots". Compare to my cable company they are like a breath of fresh air! When I had a problem with my cable modem they insisted it was my computer, I said "how can my computer cause the cable light to flash?" They sent a tech and come to find out the pedestal was bad. I just hate bieng BS'ed like that.

[lee635]

It seems a lot of this dissention stems from small independent dealers.

It's the monthly cost stupid:
I would note that D* doesn't have an equivalent to E*'s AT50, so the monthly cost to get started with D* is quite a bit higher. When I worked in retail, I can't tell you how many times a day a customer would say something like, "I don't care about the price, how much is it a month?" I like that if my budget gets tight I can drop down to AT50 - can't do that with D*. I always get a big grin when someone says they don't mind paying a PVR fee and can't understand why anyone would have less than a Tivo or Ultimate - You got to be rich in the first place to think like that. ;)

The image:
I think some of the perceived bias among the folks who post here has to do with the D* spin doctors marketing D* as the "Cadillac" while the E* marketeers look for a more folksy "Chevrolet" image
Then there's the whole "My satellite company is bigger than yours. Yeah, but my company gets more new customer "trim" than yours. ;)

Dishplayers:
I own a DP and I haven't whined as much others here. Good Lord, if my dishplayer chafed my crotch as much as some of you folks, I'd have sold it on ebay a long time ago.

Summary:
My venerable old model 3000 just works like a charm and my wife refuses to upgrade - it's just tv to her. I'll wait and see what happens with the dishplayer, but won't pay the monthly fee, recording on the hard drive isn't that great IMHO.

[Nick]

Originally posted by gcutler

Nick, Pretty harsh words. :(

I know, but well-deserved nonetheless.

I am tired of Haller baiting and trolling about E*. He was once a respected commentator. but more recently has gone over the edge and doesn't realize how bitter and irrational he sounds.

[manicd]

They only "major" problem I have evr had with E* is trying to get my PPV downloaded so I could pay for them! :D

[hu]

What if we turn this into a anti- Bob Haller site also?

[Jacob S]

Lol, i remember his pom poms to Dish, I used to like them too, and I can see his side of the story. Being a retailer for Dish and being done wrong in that aspect as well as a customer makes it a LOT worse than just being a subscriber.

[Cheyenne]

I think Bob is one that must require more than his share of attention. He has had issues on another site in the past.
We all may want to take his on-going rant concerning his "love"
of E* a bit less seriously.
I really doubt E* cares what Bob thinks "should" be the direction.

I do know that neither of the satellite TV providers are strong on customer retention, nor do either of them feel they should reward loyal customers with any kind of perk. The closest to a "perk" that I have seen, and taken advantage of, is/was the 508 upgrade offer. Of course, if I had never been a Dishnet customer I would have saved $150. When I looked for a "comeback" deal for a PVR from DirecTV, none was to be found. Furthermore, Dishnet (are we not supposed to use their names here?) programming charges are less than DirecTV (for the comparable package I chose).

There is room to improve for certain. I went with the lesser of the 2 evils and am satisfied.

[Jacob S]

I think they are looking at the subscriber base as a whole instead of individually.

[Bob Haller]

Well I havent been around for nearkly 2 weeks, what with a nice florida vacation followed by the shuttle disaster. I am vcery interested in nasa ands space stuff. Look I honestly anm sure NO COMPANY cares about any individual customer. But the direction E has taken is a poor one. Sloppy QC, wiith a10% PVR reject rate, not taking care of their dealers, management not being aware of outages and E possibly being for sale. The DP is just another example of a downward spiral of customer service. Big compnies loose something as they grow its called Gigantism or something like it.

Like I ALWAYS said I call em as I see em. In the past I took issue with some E polices. Most were addressed. But the wholesale unhappiness of so many big E supporters should concern managemnent. Its a sign of a big problem.

I am not up to date and am very buisy but thought I would stop in briefly. This thread sure has grown since I last saw it.