what's a reasonable time...

[buzzcut]

hi everyone,

posted this on another forum, but, thought i might try and get some help here, too.

Saturday night i was watching a college hockey game on FSN. every once in awhile, i would get these random "white flashes"---similar to a flash bulb going off. coming back from a commercial, i did notice about 12-14 "flashes" approximately 1/2 second apart. that was the only time the "flashes" were orderly. otherwise, it was mostly a flash or two here, and a flash or two there. it got to be rather annoying.

i then thought i would flip over to ESPN to a college basketball game (in HD) and it seemed to be going on during that game also (though, maybe not quite as bad). last night during the same time frame, i checked some other channels, they didn't appear to have the same problem.

i'm just your "average joe" hdtv watcher, so, i am not sure what to think of this occurance. wonder if anyone would be able to shed some light on the subject?

just to add, the 622 is connected to the hdtv via a 6 ft hdmi cable.

tia for any help/suggestions.

[HobbyTalk]

Do you happen to have your SD channels set as grey bars?

[fwampler]

I've seen that too. I just assumed there were photographers around.

[buzzcut]

I've seen that too. I just assumed there were photographers around.

ummmm, no. it's pretty obvious that they are NOT the result of courtside (or any other) photographers. i just used that analogy because that's the best thing i could come up with at the moment.

[buzzcut]

to give Dish?

i posted in the "622" forum, and, the L448 software thread in the "622" forum about a problem i am having with "white flashes" occuring during broadcasts of sports---the ESPN channels, FSN, ABC, BTN, TNT, etc. (not to mention "video studder" on many channels). anyway, i reported this problem to Dish almost 2 weeks ago. i have contacted them twice about the problem---all i get for a reply is "there is no information or resolution available at this time, thank you for your patience".

i watched a couple of bb games last night, and, at times, about drove me nuts. i am starting to lose my patience.

in your opinion(s), how long should i wait before i need to be more "forceful"---if you know what i mean. the first time i contacted them, they mentioned that the problem was most likely a software problem (it occurs on both tv's---hdtv, and standard tv).

i want to give Dish the benefit of trying to fix the problem, but, i am receiving no information at all. and, watching these basketball games can really be irritating at times!

any suggestions?

[Jim5506]

6 months?

[HobbyTalk]

From your other discssions it appears that it is an isolated case. Did you have a tech come out to check your install?

[ernste40]

to give Dish?

i posted in the "622" forum, and, the L448 software thread in the "622" forum about a problem i am having with "white flashes" occuring during broadcasts of sports---the ESPN channels, FSN, ABC, BTN, TNT, etc. (not to mention "video studder" on many channels). anyway, i reported this problem to Dish almost 2 weeks ago. i have contacted them twice about the problem---all i get for a reply is "there is no information or resolution available at this time, thank you for your patience".

i watched a couple of bb games last night, and, at times, about drove me nuts. i am starting to lose my patience.

in your opinion(s), how long should i wait before i need to be more "forceful"---if you know what i mean. the first time i contacted them, they mentioned that the problem was most likely a software problem (it occurs on both tv's---hdtv, and standard tv).

i want to give Dish the benefit of trying to fix the problem, but, i am receiving no information at all. and, watching these basketball games can really be irritating at times!

any suggestions?

I'm not sure about the stutters, but there's a good chance that the white flashes are just that -- camera flashes. Most indoor arenas have a built in arena-wide flash system built in for the official photographers, i.e. when the photographer presses the shutter button, giant strobes on the ceiling fire to give a better lit image quality. I have noticed that HD sports broadcasts pick these flashes up much more than SD did. To the point of NBC's HD hockey broadcasts being nearly unwatchable because the flashes are very bright, very often and actually cause the whole picture to flicker. And, I am watching those OTA, so they aren't a Dish issue.

[buzzcut]

I'm not sure about the stutters, but there's a good chance that the white flashes are just that -- camera flashes. Most indoor arenas have a built in arena-wide flash system built in for the official photographers, i.e. when the photographer presses the shutter button, giant strobes on the ceiling fire to give a better lit image quality. I have noticed that HD sports broadcasts pick these flashes up much more than SD did. To the point of NBC's HD hockey broadcasts being nearly unwatchable because the flashes are very bright, very often and actually cause the whole picture to flicker. And, I am watching those OTA, so they aren't a Dish issue.


wow. if that's true, that is really frustrating. i have actually quit watching some games because it is really a pain in the a$$!!! i thought i was intelligent enough to distinguish between a camera flash and what was going on with the picture i was watching. one piece of evidence that swayed me to believe there was something wrong is when i was watching a hockey or basketball game and i just happen to start counting the number of flashes---14 of them, evenly spaced---about 1/2 second apart. that was when i really made up my mind these weren't camera flashes.

i have to admit, never heard of your explanation before.

man, i would think sports fans would be going nuts over this phenomenom. it is really irritating to try and watch a game while this is going on.

oh, and, no. Dish never mentioned having a tech drop by---guess i didn't ask since they said it was most likely a software problem and probably could be remedied through a receiver update (or whatever the proper terminology would be).

everyone sees this during basketball and hockey games---and, i am the only one complaining? just seems weird. (no offense to anyone)

[bartendress]

... ... Most indoor arenas have a built in arena-wide flash system built in for the official photographers... ... ...

I've been to many NBA and NHL games in a few arenas over the years and I have never experienced this... and the human eye is way more sensitive than an HDTV camera.

Furthermore, the arena's light rigging is more than sufficient for still photographs taken with a disposable camera, let alone those taken by a professional using an SLR camera.

[bartendress]

... ... ... oh, and, no. Dish never mentioned having a tech drop by---guess i didn't ask since they said it was most likely a software problem and probably could be remedied through a receiver update (or whatever the proper terminology would be).

everyone sees this during basketball and hockey games---and, i am the only one complaining? just seems weird. (no offense to anyone)... ... ...

Don't wait any longer. Insist that they send you a replacement receiver. If that doesn't resolve the issue, then insist on a tech visit to check out your hardware.

[HobbyTalk]

He has already had a couple of receiver replacements (per other threads) with the same result. That is why I said it might be best to have a tech visit.

Note: This one good reason not to start mutiple threads about the same problem. It makes it difficult for someone that wants to help to get all of the information unless they happen across the other threads.

[Ron Barry]

So far buzzcut this is the first report regarding white flashes here from what I have read (I don't read all posts but try to). As for time frame.. If it is software related and that commonly happens on sports channels I would expect more reports and the fact that I have not seen any others I doubt they would be working on a fix unless it is more widespread as this board is indicating. Based on my software experience, to address a software issue, the following usually needs to happen.

1) Problem needs to be identified and reproduced. (Developer cannot fix something they cannot see).
2) Significant amount of customer pain. (Problem has to effect multiple people).
3) Has to be high enough in severity and priority compared to other issues being addressed.

If those three things above are meet, I believe it would be in someone's queue to be addressed. Based on this site, I am not sure if the above requirements are meet so personally my answer to your questions is "Long time because this appears localized and random in nature and those are the toughest issues to resolve, in fact at this point I am not sure this is an issue". Trouble with Video issues, one has to see it and compare to what they know is normal to say one way or another if it is an issue.

Like others here have indicated, You need to really determine if this issues is real and rule out all other possibilities externally including sensitivity. We can help here in that regard, but unless there is a show it always happens on it might be hard here.

If you can get a video clip showing what you are seeing that would be very helpful in documenting your experience. in the meantime, have you tried all resolutions.. 1080i, 720p, 480p and see if it happens in all resolutions.

You did say it happens with TV1 and TV2 outputs. Is this on two separate TVs? if so, I would say this rules out a TV/receiver incompatibility.

[buzzcut]

So far buzzcut this is the first report regarding white flashes here from what I have read (I don't read all posts but try to). As for time frame.. If it is software related and that commonly happens on sports channels I would expect more reports and the fact that I have not seen any others I doubt they would be working on a fix unless it is more widespread as this board is indicating. Based on my software experience, to address a software issue, the following usually needs to happen.

1) Problem needs to be identified and reproduced. (Developer cannot fix something they cannot see).
2) Significant amount of customer pain. (Problem has to effect multiple people).
3) Has to be high enough in severity and priority compared to other issues being addressed.

If those three things above are meet, I believe it would be in someone's queue to be addressed. Based on this site, I am not sure if the above requirements are meet so personally my answer to your questions is "Long time because this appears localized and random in nature and those are the toughest issues to resolve, in fact at this point I am not sure this is an issue". Trouble with Video issues, one has to see it and compare to what they know is normal to say one way or another if it is an issue.

Like others here have indicated, You need to really determine if this issues is real and rule out all other possibilities externally including sensitivity. We can help here in that regard, but unless there is a show it always happens on it might be hard here.

If you can get a video clip showing what you are seeing that would be very helpful in documenting your experience. in the meantime, have you tried all resolutions.. 1080i, 720p, 480p and see if it happens in all resolutions.

You did say it happens with TV1 and TV2 outputs. Is this on two separate TVs? if so, I would say this rules out a TV/receiver incompatibility.


yes, i noticed the "flashes" on my lcd hdtv and my sd 26" tv. although, the 46" lcd makes it much more noticeable.

apologies for the posts on different threads. i should have stuck with one spot. just too anxious to figure out what the problem is, i guess.

i did watch a good share of the North Dakota-Minnesota hockey game tonight. did not notice any "flashes". will have to see what happens with basketball on Saturday.

btw, since upgrading to the 622 in the fall, it is the only 622 receiver i have had installed. i used to have a 625 before i bought the lcd. in fact, i received a different 625 because the caller id never worked on the original 625---and, never worked on the replacement either. works fine with the 622.

anyway, guess i will check out the basketball games on Saturday and see what happens. if it (flashes) persist, will have to contact Dish again.

btw, have not tried 720p or 480p.

also, would like to add---thanks for all your help/comments, it is greatly appreciated.

from an "average joe" hdtv viewer.

[ernste40]

I've been to many NBA and NHL games in a few arenas over the years and I have never experienced this... and the human eye is way more sensitive than an HDTV camera.

Furthermore, the arena's light rigging is more than sufficient for still photographs taken with a disposable camera, let alone those taken by a professional using an SLR camera.

In many cases this is true. And, for many sports photographers, they won't use a flash with their SLR. But, I attend a lot of hockey games at the Kohl Center in Madison and I know for a fact that the house photographers (i.e. the official UW photographers) use a built-in arena wide flash. In fact, that is how you can tell when there is an official photographer at a game... the flash strobes in the rafters will go off throughout.

Here are two examples... First, a news photo from the State Journal:

http://www.madison.com/images/articles/wsj/2008/02/02/62089.jpg

Now, an official UW photo:

http://uwbadgers.com/photos/2392_3.jpg

Notice how sharply defined the shadows are in the official photo and how pure the reds are. That is because the flash freezes the action at a lower ISO, creating a more polished photo. Without a flash, the news photographer can still get a shot, but it is grainier and at a higher ISO.

As for the regular interval flashes, that would come from an SLR shooter tied into the overhead flash rig, holding down the shutter button for multiple photos to follow the action. Perhaps all arenas don't have these systems, but most of them do. And, many of them allow certain media to have access to the flash systems, as well as just official photographers.

I don't know if that is the issue the OP is seeing, but I know that I have noticed that with HD reception (mine coming OTA), the coverage of indoor sporting events picks up those overhead flashes a lot more sensitively than SD ever did -- to the point of the image flickering after each pulse of the flashes.

[bartendress]

Here are two examples... First, a news photo from the State Journal:

http://www.madison.com/images/articles/wsj/2008/02/02/62089.jpg

Now, an official UW photo:

http://uwbadgers.com/photos/2392_3.jpg

Notice how sharply defined the shadows are in the official photo and how pure the reds are. That is because the flash freezes the action at a lower ISO, creating a more polished photo. Without a flash, the news photographer can still get a shot, but it is grainier and at a higher ISO.

What I see is a game-action photo (State Journal) compared to a UW promotional shot taken under very different, likely static, lighting conditions... the latter most likely during practice. If... and I do mean IF... there were strobes for photogs to tap into, the arrays would be set up to achieve the pinnacle of action photography... no shadow... the 'official' photo exaggerates the shadow to the point it actually distracts from the subject and the color in the 'official' photo is quite washed out. If I'm going to stage an official photo... I'm going to make sure there's a proper color saturation.

[HobbyTalk]

A quick google would have given you this

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ET0Z

[bartendress]

A quick google would have given you this

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ET0Z

I guess it's possible I don't know everything. LOL

Thanks for the link.

[ernste40]

A quick google would have given you this

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ET0Z

Thanks for the link... I'm glad to have my story corroborated!