No LOS to 119... Unknown wait time for unsure ch. moves or attempt combo dish setup?

[pratttech]

I was just installed on 1/8/08. As best I can tell from hanging around this forum for the past month it is a new AU9 5-LNB slimline dish. I am in Massachusetts and my house faces east so the satellites from here are W/SW-- all behind my neighbors house, my backyard, and trees. The best the D* installer could do was find a spot where I have LOS to all other necessary satellites (99, 101, 103, 110) save 119, which is only at 22 degrees above the horizon from here. My dish was installed on a pole in the front yard and actually appears to be aimed at my neighbor's front door. I have LOS over their house to all of the others satellites but 119 is too low.

I have been reading all of the excellent information contained herein to the best of my current abilities and must admit to being a little overwhelmed. This satellite is their furthest west and just a pain to see from New England according to the installers who visited me. Would that D* ever put one over the Atlantic or even east of the Galapagos, lol! Even still based on what I've seen it should be technically possible to get another dish for 119 alone and combine it with the feed from my primary dish:

Two verified schemes to receive all 5 satellites .... Well, actually FIVE schemes! ... (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1079192&postcount=164)

Cal Amp 5-LNB Slimline Dish Modification (NOT APPLICABLE TO THE WNC LNB) (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1322936&postcount=275)

From my backyard there are plenty of holes through the trees. I suspect getting LOS to any single satellite will not be an issue, but getting them all on the multisat dish was for the installer. I am just not really sure where to start or even if I should bother. I was told that channels are moving off of 119 so I wonder if I should just wait or make this effort. I had started a thread to inquire about any potential 119 channel moves (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115856) and found that whether this is even true or not, or when it would even happen if at all is still completely unknown.

However I really (really really really :p) want HDNet, ESPN2 and my locals (most are available OTA, but some I don't get OTA are on D*) now! It seems like once a day there is something on HDNet or one of those locals that I want to check out and it is very frustrating. I have seen the 18" dishes are also very cheap now and my labor is free for me :D . Therefore the reason for my post now is to evaluate the cost/benefit ratio of even tackling such a project and if it merits the attempt to get some help from all the DBS veterans hanging out here.

[litzdog911]

Well, you found the right threads if you want to solve the problem using multiple satellite dishes.

It's quite likely that the two HD channels beamed from 119 (HDNet and ESPN2) will move to 99 or 103-deg W after the new D11 satellite goes live later this Spring or early this Summer. You're easiest "solution" is to wait a few more months. Of course, if you're good buddies with a local installer, or a very handy do-it-yourselfer, we can help you out.

[carl6]

There is one other consideration beyond what HD channels are on 119, and that is guide data that is sent on 119 in addition to what is on 101 (duplicate feeds). This is so that receivers that stay tuned to some of the new HD channels for long periods of time will still receive guide data, which they might otherwise not receive.

Bottom line is, you really want to be able to see 119.

Carl

[pratttech]

Thanks for the quick feedback guys. I'm still pretty new to this technology and haven't come across any Complete Idiot Guide or Dummies for DBS books yet :D. I'm still not completely sure what I would be getting into with this. To be honest the thread is very long and I haven't really read it all yet.

I am leaning towards the project but from reading those threads concerned about cost and leery about cracking the 5-LNB assembly. I'm assuming this would void any D* warranty too :p. Does anyone make aftermarket LNBs designed for this sort of thing? As for potential cost any ideas? What exactly would I need? Dish, combiner, cables?

[carl6]

If you are talking about a multi-dish solution for HD, cost would involve buying 2 or 3 dishes (Slimline with the correct (CalAmp) LNB that can be modified, plus a Phase III or a Sat C dish/kit and a 119). The slimline (or AT9 if you can find one) is probably going to be $75 to $100. The Phase III maybe $50, no idea about a separate 110 and 119 but should be no more than a phase III. So you're looking at about $150 for the dishes. Then you need a multiswitch, Zinwell WB68, about $45. Coax - depends on what you buy, a 500 foot spool of RG6 copper clad steel (not recommended) is about $70. You should get solid copper center, so higher cost. Connectors, crimper, miscellaneous. You are probably looking at $250 to $300 total to put this together, more if you need longer coax runs.

Warranty, gone if you modify the slimline. The other dishes you would buy used anyway, so no warranty. That should not effect warranty on receiver or DVR though, just the dish.

Carl

[pratttech]

If you are talking about a multi-dish solution for HD

Yes

...cost would involve buying 2 or 3 dishes (Slimline with the correct (CalAmp) LNB that can be modified, plus a Phase III or a Sat C dish/kit and a 119).

Already have a slimline with initial installation last month. So do you mean just one more dish (Phase III or Sat C-- what's the diff?). How do I tell if my slimline is CalAmp or WNC?

...Then you need a multiswitch, Zinwell WB68

This is the combiner thingy? :p

Warranty, gone if you modify the slimline. The other dishes you would buy used anyway, so no warranty. That should not effect warranty on receiver or DVR though, just the dish.

Exactly what I was thinking too. Does dish only come with a 90 day like receiver anyway?

Thanks very much for your help.

[carl6]

You have to go look at the LNB assembly itself. The CalAmp is easily modified (see the details in the other thread). The WNC can't be modified for this purpose (at least not readily).

Phase III is the 3-LNB dish. You can use that, unmodified, to get 110 and 119 assuming you can see both satellites from one location. If not, then you need to use a separate 110 and 119 dish.

For any of the possible configurations documented in that other thread, you need to use a WB68 (or possibly SWM, don't think that's been tried but should work). That is what lets you combine all the dishes together. You take the outputs of the multiswitch to feed the receivers.

Carl

[pratttech]

Phase III is the 3-LNB dish. You can use that, unmodified, to get 110 and 119 assuming you can see both satellites from one location. If not, then you need to use a separate 110 and 119 dish.

Thanks again Carl. Still a bit confused by the above. I do have LOS from my current dish to 110 already. Why would I need a second dish for anything but 119?

[BattleZone]

The LNBs for 110 and 119 get wired together, which makes it look like a single LNB to the receiver. Essentially the 3 transponders DirecTV uses on 110 are "remapped" to lower frequencies and combined with the signals from 119 (of which DirecTV only uses 11 of the 32 transponders), so that the receiver simply sees one LNB with 14 active transponders.

Because of this interaction, 110 and 119 will probably need to come from the same dish, especially given the complexity of the integrated LNB packs for the HD dishes.

[carl6]

Thanks again Carl. Still a bit confused by the above. I do have LOS from my current dish to 110 already. Why would I need a second dish for anything but 119?

IIP gave you the right answer. But what I want to say is take the time to read the entire thread about using separate dishes. It's long, but there is a lot of information in there and I think you will understand better after doing so.

Very briefly, there are four signalling combinations the receiver uses to tell the dish what channel you tuned to (what satellite feed to send back to the receiver). These four signalling combinations are 13 VDC no tone, 18 VDC no tone, 13 VDC with a 22KHz tone and 18 VDC with a 22 KHz tone.

Each satellite has multiple transponders. The odd numbered use right hand circular polarization and the even numbered use left hand circular polarization. So any given voltage/tone combination will provide you either the even numbered, or the odd numbered, transponders from specific satellites.

Here is what each signal combination is for.
13V no tone: 99 odd, 101 odd
13V 22KHz: 103 odd, 119 odd
18V no tone: 99 even, 101 even
18V 22KHz: 103 even, 110 even, 119 even

There are no 110 odds, and the three 110 evens are re-mapped and mixed with 119. It is this re-mapping and mixing of 110 that requires the Sat C kit and combiner.

If you end up with the signal from two different transponders on the coax at the same time, they interfere with each other and nothing works. So to use multiple dishes, you have to find a way to isolate each combination of transponders so that no two are providing a signal at any one time.

With this rudimentary introduction, reading that other thread should let you put all the pieces together.

Carl

[pratttech]

Read the thread in more detail and think there is no way I'm going to do this with my 5-LNB Slimline. The board level soldering stuff just seems a bit more than I want to bite off. My current thinking is that I will either look for two AT9 dishes or an AT9 and a Phase III and just replace my current dish entirely.

That or I was wondering if I just get a taller pole if I can go high enough to get clear LOS over my neighbor's house and see the 119 from the current dish location. I am just not sure of that either. When I use DishPointer (http://www.dishpointer.com/) and view the 5-LNB it is more to the south than if I select the 119 alone, which is much more west. It appears that the 119 may be obstructed by his tree which is much taller than the house.

I am not sure then if a taller mount would even help as elevation is only 22 degrees. I've attached the DishPointer (http://www.dishpointer.com/) views. What is the best way to survey this ahead of time? It seems whether I want to raise my current dish or set up a second I'll need to survey this. When the installer was out he had a small sight device that he was checking LOS with. Are these things cheap or available to rent?

[litzdog911]

.... What is the best way to survey this ahead of time? It seems whether I want to raise my current dish or set up a second I'll need to survey this. When the installer was out he had a small sight device that he was checking LOS with. Are these things cheap or available to rent?

See the link in my signature. You can use the moon's position on the correct dates/times to "see" where the satellites are located.

[pratttech]

See the link in my signature. You can use the moon's position on the correct dates/times to "see" where the satellites are located.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. With regards to 119/DirecTV-7 as best I can tell the sun sets pretty close to the right location currently. The azimuth lines up at 4:02PM tomorrow but at only 10.1 degrees. With the satellite at 22 degrees I guess I should just picture it twice as high as the sun is above the horizon in same location. The moon is at the right azimuth only 25 minutes later at 4:27PM at 13 degrees over horizon. I'm not sure if it is even dark yet at that time.

For 110/DirecTV-5 the sun is still short but in the right spot at 3:18PM and the moon even earlier than for 119 supposedly at 3:43PM. It also appears that the twice a year perfect line up is just around the corner for me: March 3 at 2:49PM (110W) and 3:28PM (119W). Good stuff! I'm guessing the yellow dots in the hemisphere map are stars, but what do the red circle, red dot, and blue semi-circle represent? Is my location at the axis of N-S/E-W?