MFH-2 103b retrofit question

[odorcide]

I was trying to upgrade a property today from MFH-1 to 2 and everything went well for the 101,110/119 transponders 94+ across the board. 99 had one transponder at 64 rest where 0, 103a all 0 except one 94. 103b I'm only getting even transponders.

I'm coming off a MFH-1 in a box to a SWM chassis with 6 SWM-8's.

To troubleshoot I bypassed the chassis to a SWM-8, three different ones, no change.

Re-peaked the dish, AU-9 Slimline, dithered on the 101. 101 showing -21.7db/14.8 c/n and 110/119 -19.8db/16.1c/n. No change.

Does this sound like a bad LNB on the dish? How can I verify? This has been a good running MFH-1 system so far.

Thanks for the help in advance.


P.S. any other techs out there working with MFH-1 and 2? would love to know because no body at my shop really has any experience with it. I just learned on the streets the hard way!

[AntAltMike]

Spot beams not targeting your region will usually measure zero. Do you get all the HDTV channels? If so, then you are getting all the signals that are available.

[odorcide]

Thanks for the reply, I'm missing some of the new HD channels, FoodHD, TBSHD, etc. Spot beams are on the 103a and 99? For locals off of the satellite?

[odorcide]

Got my answer on the spot beams.


99 and 103(a) are all spot beams so you'll see a lot of variation there... high for beams aimed in your general direction, low or zero for beams aims at distant cities. 103(b) is so far all national so you should see good strength across the board there.

[AntAltMike]

I don't know which beams are spots and which aren't. I was a spot beam junkie when DirecTV4S went up but fewer people are now involved in that hobby.

What are you using for a meter. Can it furnish dBmV or dBm of Ka signal strength, or of individual transponders?

[odorcide]

I'm using a super buddy and I can get power levels on 99 and 103 but no lock. Power levels on the meter where about 31-35db for both sats.

[AntAltMike]

I'm using a super buddy and I can get power levels on 99 and 103 but no lock. Power levels on the meter where about 31-35db for both sats.

I haven't used a super buddy. I use a Blonder Tongue BTSA-5 that lets me visually assess individual transponder levels resolved to a bandwidth of 8 MHz. Does Super Buddy just measure the total RF power of the entire intermediate frequency band (Ka low, Ku, Ka high) under evaluation?

[odorcide]

On the 101/110/119 I can read the different transponders because I get a lock, no dice on the 99 or 103 just power.

[doctor j]

Unfortunately super buddy doesn't see the Ka low 250-750 Mhz freq than are 103b(c) signals.
Even /odd transponder issue is more likely a cable or voltage swapping issue.
Please give more details about each of your MFH-1 & 2 equipment connections.
Do you have a power inserter? PI-6s?
Could be LNB issue but last likelihood.

Doctor j

[yogi]

I was trying to upgrade a property today from MFH-1 to 2 and everything went well for the 101,110/119 transponders 94+ across the board. 99 had one transponder at 64 rest where 0, 103a all 0 except one 94. 103b I'm only getting even transponders.

I'm coming off a MFH-1 in a box to a SWM chassis with 6 SWM-8's.

To troubleshoot I bypassed the chassis to a SWM-8, three different ones, no change.

Re-peaked the dish, AU-9 Slimline, dithered on the 101. 101 showing -21.7db/14.8 c/n and 110/119 -19.8db/16.1c/n. No change.

Does this sound like a bad LNB on the dish? How can I verify? This has been a good running MFH-1 system so far.

Thanks for the help in advance.


P.S. any other techs out there working with MFH-1 and 2? would love to know because no body at my shop really has any experience with it. I just learned on the streets the hard way!

First, You need three power supplys to power six SWM (one power supply for every two SWMs) in a chassis.
Second, Are you running the MFH-2 out of the FTM ports out of the MFH-1?
Do you have all green lights on the MFH-2 chassis? (your coming in hot)
Do you get signal on your super buddy on 103b? (you won't get lock)

[doctor j]

Can you get a TV and receiver in the distribution closet.
If so any one line directly to receiver from 5 lnb dish can check 103(b). Will need BBC's to see .
If ok the you'll know LNB is ok and cable/connectors all need to be checked.
103 odd transponders are on the 14 volt/22kHz line which I believe is port 3.

Doctor j

[AntAltMike]

Suppose you connect an AU9 downlead to the B-band converrter and then connect the B-band converter output to a two way splitter, with one leg going to the receiver and the other to the Super Buddy, If you put the receiver into self test to check for the b-band transponders, then they will have been upshifted, into a band that the Super Buddy sees. Can they then be detected and measured that way?

[odorcide]

the setup there is a power inserter, sa-6a amp/line leveler, pfa-6600 and a mcu. I tried to use the FTM ports but I wouldn't get green lights on the chassis. instead I used the cascadable outputs with voltage blockers on the ports. good green lights on the chassis. I have a H20 in the closet, that's where I've been doing my testing.

So I can hook up that H20 directly to the dish bypassing all the MFH-1 stuff?

It shouldn't matter what order the LNB's are hooked up to the power inserter right?

Thanks for all the help.

[doctor j]

To check the LNB , yes you can bypass all the MFH-1. Will need BBC to get Ka low.
Order from dish to power inserter doesn't matter.

AntAltMike: hadn't thought about upshifting with bbc. Will try and see what signals I can get.

Doctor j

[AntAltMike]

I'm not familiar with all the part numbers. I am planning on using Sonora polarity lockers to power each of five AU9s with Sonora wideband trunkline amps in five similar buildings, and then the polarity locker outputs will go into fairly strong trunklines that will be tapped at four floors to feed the chassis.

I haven't yet had an FMC chassis in my hand, but the only photo of one I saw included just two power supplies. I also have only seen one SWM and one power inserter.

The Power Inserter had two ports and claimed to pass 2.3 MHz to 2K+ MHz, so I figured that the powering of the SWM came through its SWM stacked output line. So how does the FMC chassis deliver the power to the SWMs? It would be really beneficial for me to be able to power it through another path, because I am going to have to put SWMs in 4" deep cabinets that do not have 110v outlets in them and are not even deep enough for the FMC chassis, but if I could power them from another port, I could either inject the power into the trunklines or even run a powering coax from the attic above the 4th floor down to each of the four floors where the junction boxes are.

[odorcide]

There are three power supplys for the chassis, two on the left and one on the right. To power the SWM's off the chassis you use the legacy 3 port, wish it would go off of the trunk lines. I'll get some pictures of everything when I get back out there. I will connect the H20 directly to the dish and that will steer me in the right direction.

[texasbrit]

Suppose you connect an AU9 downlead to the B-band converrter and then connect the B-band converter output to a two way splitter, with one leg going to the receiver and the other to the Super Buddy, If you put the receiver into self test to check for the b-band transponders, then they will have been upshifted, into a band that the Super Buddy sees. Can they then be detected and measured that way?

I don't see why this should not work but you will need to set the receiver to a b-band channel (say CNNHD) otherwise there will be no control signals going to the BBC to tell it to do the conversion.

odorcide - I know you are in Dallas, is that where this installation is? My dish here in DFW is probably aligned just about as well as it could be and I get the following:

99(b) - all these TPs are spotbeams for other cities but I see a few signals. TP3=76, TP4=74, TP6=83

103(a)/(s) (some receivers show 103(a), others with newer software show 103(s))- these are also spotbeams but these include the DFW ones. DFW HD locals are on TP21 and TP23 which are b-band signals from DirecTV10.
My 103(a)/(s) signals are as follows:
TP5=100, TP15=98,
Tp16=85,
TPs 17-24 98, 0, 96, 83,100,0,98,94

103(b) , called 103(c) on some receivers, carries all the new national HD channels. All the TPs that are not n/a, I have signals between 94 and 98.

I suspect you have two different issues. First, you are missing all the odd transponders on 103(b) and probably on 103(a) also. Do you have the odd TPs on 119? If you don't have any odd TPs on 119 either, then as doctor j mentions you probably have a cable problem in the cable coming into the fourth port of your SWMs, the one marked 13v 22KHz. All the odd TPs on 103/110/119 are on this cable.
If you are seeing odd TPs on 119 but not on either of the 103 screens, a cable problem is still possible but much less likely. You will need to swap the two 103/110/119 cables at the dish to see if the problem moves with the cable (in which case it will move to the even TPs) or stays on the odd TPs (indicating an LNB issue).

Once you are getting odd and even TPs, I think you will probably find you still have a signal strength issue. Mike's suggestion to use a BBC to shift the signals into a band you can measure is a very interesting one. Otherwise you will have to use a receiver and look at the signal strength screen for 103(b) to help you peak the DirecTV10 signals.

[yogi]

the setup there is a power inserter, sa-6a amp/line leveler, pfa-6600 and a mcu. I tried to use the FTM ports but I wouldn't get green lights on the chassis. instead I used the cascadable outputs with voltage blockers on the ports. good green lights on the chassis. I have a H20 in the closet, that's where I've been doing my testing.

So I can hook up that H20 directly to the dish bypassing all the MFH-1 stuff?

It shouldn't matter what order the LNB's are hooked up to the power inserter right?

Thanks for all the help.

What are you using PI-6S for line locking? We had some trouble with voltage reg. and 22khz tone gen.

[yogi]

I don't see why this should not work but you will need to set the receiver to a b-band channel (say CNNHD) otherwise there will be no control signals going to the BBC to tell it to do the conversion.

odorcide - I know you are in Dallas, is that where this installation is? My dish here in DFW is probably aligned just about as well as it could be and I get the following:

99(b) - all these TPs are spotbeams for other cities but I see a few signals. TP3=76, TP4=74, TP6=83

103(a)/(s) (some receivers show 103(a), others with newer software show 103(s))- these are also spotbeams but these include the DFW ones. DFW HD locals are on TP21 and TP23 which are b-band signals from DirecTV10.
My 103(a)/(s) signals are as follows:
TP5=100, TP15=98,
Tp16=85,
TPs 17-24 98, 0, 96, 83,100,0,98,9

103(b) , called 103(c) on some receivers, carries all the new national HD channels. All the TPs that are not n/a, I have signals between 94 and 98.

I suspect you have two different issues. First, you are missing all the odd transponders on 103(b) and probably on 103(a) also. Do you have the odd TPs on 119? If you don't have any odd TPs on 119 either, then as doctor j mentions you probably have a cable problem in the cable coming into the fourth port of your SWMs, the one marked 13v 22KHz. All the odd TPs on 103/110/119 are on this cable.
If you are seeing odd TPs on 119 but not on either of the 103 screens, a cable problem is still possible but much less likely. You will need to swap the two 103/110/119 cables at the dish to see if the problem moves with the cable (in which case it will move to the even TPs) or stays on the odd TPs (indicating an LNB issue).

Once you are getting odd and even TPs, I think you will probably find you still have a signal strength issue. Mike's suggestion to use a BBC to shift the signals into a band you can measure is a very interesting one. Otherwise you will have to use a receiver and look at the signal strength screen for 103(b) to help you peak the DirecTV10 signals.

If he have problems with getting some transponders on all sats. He probable has it hookup wrong.
From port 1 of the MFH-1 goes to port 2 of the Chassis. port 2 goes to port 1. port 3 to port 4. port 4 to port 3.

[doctor j]

Agree that you've got to follow 13/14v : 18/20v :13/14v & 22mHz tone : 18/20v & 22 mHz tone consistently. Sonora vs NAS power inserters are sequenced differently. WB68 vs SMW-8 inputs are in reverse order. The FMC-6 chassis sounds like it may be crossed as well.

Doctor j

[texasbrit]

Agree that you've got to follow 13/14v : 18/20v :13/14v & 22mHz tone : 18/20v & 22 mHz tone consistently. Sonora vs NAS power inserters are sequenced differently. WB68 vs SMW-8 inputs are in reverse order. The FMC-6 chassis sounds like it may be crossed as well.

Doctor j

If you look at all the combinations it's pretty difficult to cross connect incorrectly and get zero on the odds. Getting the even signals at the receiver on both sets of transponders (just like using a splitter with a conventional DirecTV setup) is certainly possible. But I am sure you are right, somewhere in there if you don't cross-connect the cables correctly between the various units you can probably get signals on the evens and zero on the odds, I just haven't managed to work out how!

[odorcide]

I went back out there today to do some more troubleshooting. I hooked up a H20 directly to the dish and got good readings, pictures below.

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0345.jpg
http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0346.jpg
http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0347.jpg

I also swapped the lines, input #3 and 4, no change.

I hooked up the H20 directly to the polarity locker and was able to get even TP's off of #4 output 18v 22KHz. When I hook the H20 to #3 13v 22KHz I get no TP's even or odd. My understanding is I should get odd's off of #3 port.

I'm confused if it is the polarity locker that was screwing up the 13v/18v 22KHz tone then wouldn't the 110/119 TP's be screwed to?

I've talked to Pace where we got the MFH-1 in a box and they didn't have any other ideas and are supposed to call me tomorrow.

I'm not sure where to look next.

Below are the transponder levels while the H20 is hooked up to the SWM.

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0342.jpg
http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0343.jpg
http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0344.jpg

Below I've included some pictures of the setup incase people are curious on the SWM chassis and stuff.

Polarity locker

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0332.jpg

MFH-1 in a box

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0333.jpg


SWM chassis

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0334.jpg


Close up of the trunk lines, SWM power is the coax on the right

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0335.jpg


Close up of the SWM power port connected to Legacy #3 port

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0337.jpg


The whole shebang

http://drunkhourphoto.com//files/1/IMG_0348.jpg

Any other ideas please throw them out, I'm lost now. Thanks.

[odorcide]

If he have problems with getting some transponders on all sats. He probable has it hookup wrong.
From port 1 of the MFH-1 goes to port 2 of the Chassis. port 2 goes to port 1. port 3 to port 4. port 4 to port 3.

Already went through that when I first hooked it up, thanks.

[doctor j]

Not the problem but the 103(b) Ka low, conus signals are a bit low.
You should be getting 90's on all Tp's. A little tweaking az +/or el should bring that into better values.
I've not worked in a FMC-6 chassis ( lots of single SWM work) but I know the inputs do need to be "tuned" to insure proper operation. I have been to the MFH 1 & 2 certification course last month. We tuned a FMC-6 chassis directly from the amp, not thru the master unit. Are the input LED's red , green or blinking red. You may actually be too hot ie red and attenuators could help. Would make certain again that the cable on ports 3 &4 are good and connectors all ok , maybe the lines out of the master unit to the bottom of the box are bad. That would not affect any of the MFH-1 performance.

On the outputs of the MFH-in-a-Box you can check odd/even 101 on lines 1 & 2 with the Super Buddy. I would probably swap line 1&2 out of the Power inserter to lines 3&4 into the SA-6A amp and check odd/even 101 on line 3&4 out of the box to make certain none of the jumpers have gone bad.

Its not supposed to be this hard. It should be plug and play.
Good luck.

Doctor j

[doctor j]

reviewed MFH-2 manual.
Loss of 103 transponder can be from non-terminated outputs from the master unit.
Must be "capacitive" terminators ie: D/C block & 75 ohm terminator.
Would like to understand why the FTM (MFH-2) outputs on the master unit "didn't work". Maybe placing D/C block and terminators on the "cascade" outputs will allow the FTM outputs to connect to the FMC chassis and function properly.
Chassis needs to be loaded from bottom up.

Good Luck

Doctor j

[doctor j]

On "third thought" I don't like your 103 (b) signals directly from the dish.
The odd transponders are still significantly different compared to the evens.
If dithering one of two turns each direction doesn't get all transponders into the 90's, a new slimline dish might be in order. Relatively speaking that might be an easier checkup.

Please report progress.

Doctor j

[texasbrit]

You did not say where your installation was....zip code??

[odorcide]

Zip code is 75202, I've been talking to pace and they suggested by passing the attenuators going into the polarity locker. I did that today but no change so I'm going to swap out the polarity locker to see if that changes anything.

[odorcide]

problem solved! it was the polarity locker. weird because I was still getting 110 and 119. thanks everyone for the help.

[texasbrit]

problem solved! it was the polarity locker. weird because I was still getting 110 and 119. thanks everyone for the help.

So what signal strengths are you now seeing?

[doctor j]

CONGRATULATIONS!
Solving a difficult problem is a GREAT feeling.
WAY TO GO!!!

Thanks for the follow up

Doctor j

[odorcide]

So what signal strengths are you now seeing?

103b all 94+ except for one TP at 83 and on at 63. I chalked those up to low coming off the satellite.

[texasbrit]

103b all 94+ except for one TP at 83 and on at 63. I chalked those up to low coming off the satellite.

All your 103(b) signals should be identical (within 3-4 points of each other). To get 94+ with an 83 would be strange and a 63 even stranger.
How about 103(a) TPs 21 and 23? They are where the DFW locals come from and should be mid 90s to 100.

[doctor j]

One transponder still could be cable problem or improper termination with partial reflection.
But overall you are lookin good.

Doctor j

[yogi]

problem solved! it was the polarity locker. weird because I was still getting 110 and 119. thanks everyone for the help.

Sound like the same problem we had.
Good job.:)

[odorcide]

Yup to called it, should have known it was the polarity locker after hooking the H20 directly to #3 and not getting the odd TP's but Pace talked me out of it. I'm upgrading 3 units today, hope it goes well.