Changing from 301

[Sandman]

I was a Direct subscriber that went to Dish rather blindly, I went to WalMart and bought my 301 receiver and 500 dish, paid approx $130.00, did the install my self, then called Dish to subscribe. When I subscribed to American Everything the rep told me that since I bought my own equipment they would give me a credit on my montly bill of $12.50 per month for 12 months, which I am receiving, I get a monthly statement, was never asked to do a credit card pay.
I was not aware that there were many different receivers and the 301 is fine except for the EPG which really bugs me and I want to upgrade to a 508 or something similar, the thing I cannot get a clear answer is what happens to my present agreement with Dish, will I loose my $12 per month credit, can I just by another receiver and call them up and tell them I bought a new receiver, cancel the old and authorize the new, with Direct this was a simple thing, with Dish it seems complex.. Maybe I could get a second receiver and pay the mirroring fee, but I cannot find anyone locally that will sell me a 508 without complete install and programming package.:confused:

[gcutler]

The typical deal is a free 301, so that was why they gave you a credit. As long as you keep ONE active Reciever and the programming you agreed to you will keep the credit. You can buy the 508 and your only loss would be the waste of the 301 not being used (which you could probably sell for close to what you paid for it). Or as you said you can have 2 recievers. If you do the install yourself look at www.dishdepot.com or if you have access to a Costco you might be able to get a good deal there.

The only people who have to worry about penalty costs for switching recievers are those who are renting (as Dish owns the equip).

[HTguy]

What you got was the "Free For All" promotion which you were entitled to get since you bought the system outright. You get a $12.50 credit for the 1st 12 months as a payback.

There is no formal comittment but if you don't pay your bill, or if you are late enough to go into DC mode, you will not get any further credits after that.

You can always buy a PVR508 or higher model & sell your DP301 but if you do so during the 1st 12 months be very sure the CSR understands you are exchanging your primary rcvr when you activate it.

[abospaum]

What sucks is that as a new subscriber you can buy equipment for half the price as a current subscriber. That 508 will now cost you more.

I am interested in getting a 721 but the best price I have seen for current subs is about $529. New subscribers can get the receiver, Dish 500, Quad LNB or SW-64 and install for about $349. This makes no sense to me if all I want is the receiver and they can keep everything else including the install.

I already have 2 dishes on my house although only one is hooked up. The other one is only missing a pair of RG-6 cables running into my house. I will be hooking up to a room that is already pre-wired with two cables.

Figure that Dish has to pay the installers and that the additional equipment isn't free why am I paying so much more for my equipment as a loyal customer?

[gcutler]

Originally posted by abospaum
What sucks is that as a new subscriber you can buy equipment for half the price as a current subscriber. That 508 will now cost you more.

I am interested in getting a 721 but the best price I have seen for current subs is about $529. New subscribers can get the receiver, Dish 500, Quad LNB or SW-64 and install for about $349. This makes no sense to me if all I want is the receiver and they can keep everything else including the install.


It is pretty obvious that Dish is spending resources mostly on new subs and very little on existing subs. So the subsidy is not available to existing subs. You figure that they would at least offer a discount of some type if you commit to a certain level of programming but that seems to be rarer and rarer.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by abospaum
What sucks is that as a new subscriber you can buy equipment for half the price as a current subscriber...
...New subscribers can get the receiver, Dish 500, Quad LNB or SW-64 and install for about $349. This makes no sense to me if all I want is the receiver...
...why am I paying so much more for my equipment as a loyal customer?

DISH Network is not in the satellite receiver business. They manufacture, distribute and "sell" the equipment at break even or loss in order to build & maintain a subscriber base. The only thing they "make money" on is the programming. And after expenses for the spacecraft, uplink centers & personnel they have only made an actual profit a few financial quarters the past couple of years.

In order to attract new subscribers they subsidize the equipment costs even more - to the point of giving up to $199 off the MSRP (which, incidentally, is the same as the "wholesale" price to retailers - a rather unique distribution model.) This, in addition to the subsidies paid for installation result in several hundred dollars in Customer Acquisition Costs that result in the company carrying the subscriber at a loss for 2-3 years. In order to remain attractive to Wall Street investors they are on a mission to reduce these customer acquisition costs, not increase them.

If they kept giving existing subscribers the same "discounts" on the already subsidized equipment they would never get out of the hole and they would go into bankruptcy pretty soon.

So quit whining. You got a good deal on the promotion you started out on and you can continue to buy new equipment for a lot less than the retail mark-up on practically everything else you buy.

[Crazy 1]

Thats not a good way to conduct business in my eyes. They should try to keep the customer that they already have happy, by allowing them to buy an extra receiver at the same price as a new customer. Sounds to me like they don't care about their existing subs, they just want to get new ones. Thats why I'm not with them any anymore. just my $.02

[JayeDVXIII]

Dish does now offer some deals for existing customers wanting to upgrade to the 508.

I called about this and they offered to sell me a 508 for 199 as long as I was willing to commit to America's Top 150 for 12 consecutive months (I'm already a subscriber who is still in a 12-month contract and I already have AT150, so this was fine--i'm in the first 3 months) the only catch was to sign up for credit card auto-pay.

I think that 199 is a tad steep for a receiver so I just went out and bought a TV Tuner card and am using PVR software on my computer; which I like better :-)

I also refuse to sign up for credit card auto pay b/c I used this before and they f**ked up my bill many times..

so yes..they do help out with the cost..i also know that you can generally upgrade your receiver if you threaten to cancel at a signifcantly low price as well (a kind of brutal tactic..but it does work)

The only other option you have if you're upset about the price is to do the whole "move and disconnect" and then "sign up as a new customer at your real address" :-)

my 5 cents

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Crazy 1
Thats not a good way to conduct business in my eyes. They should try to keep the customer that they already have happy, by allowing them to buy an extra receiver at the same price as a new customer. Sounds to me like they don't care about their existing subs, they just want to get new ones. Thats why I'm not with them any anymore. just my $.02

Totally valid point, But I doubt they are oblivious to the issue and have made a business decision. I wonder what the real #s are?
I can't see many people jumping from D* to E*, perhaps they are happy with the new sub #s? And these subs are less sophisitcated so don't complain about PQ or PVRs not working as well as others...

[HTguy]

Originally posted by Crazy 1
Thats not a good way to conduct business in my eyes. They should try to keep the customer that they already have happy, by allowing them to buy an extra receiver at the same price as a new customer.

In order to do that they would have to charge the new customers more, not the existing customers less. That would simply result in fewer new subscribers.

Totally valid point, But I doubt they are oblivious to the issue and have made a business decision.

Hey if you guys don't like this business model (and, believe me, some retailers are in agreement with you) why don't you get together and start up your own DBS company?

Maybe you never knew or have forgotten that before DBS millions of people willingly paid $3-5 thousand dollars or more for C-Band systems - those big ugly dishes ("BUDs") you still see around. When DirecTV first started the systems were around $1000 installed. Over the years the equipment has advanced enormously and the costs have come down. And, due to competition, those costs are now being subsidized and basic installation is done w/o charge to the cust. The simple fact is that when it comes to satellite TV you've never had it so good & things are getting better. My goodness, now you can buy a 2-tuner PVR w/a massive HD, UHF programmable RC, DD surround, sound, etc., etc. for about half of what a no-feature low memory IRD cost 5 0r 6 years ago. Get real!

[gcutler]

Originally posted by HTguy
Maybe you never knew or have forgotten that before DBS millions of people willingly paid $3-5 thousand dollars or more for C-Band systems - those big ugly dishes ("BUDs") you still see around...My goodness, now you can buy a 2-tuner PVR w/a massive HD, UHF programmable RC, DD surround, sound, etc., etc. for about half of what a no-feature low memory IRD cost 5 0r 6 years ago. Get real

2.3 Million was the peak # of C-Band Subs, 2.3 Million is on the low end of the definition "Millions". 20 Million DBS subscribers, now those are "Millions" And how many of those C-Band $5000 paying subs had no choice, as many were rural subs with no choice of cable. You are comparing apples and oranges when comparing C-Band subs vs the typical DBS sub TODAY.

But what does that have to do with people wanting even more bang for their buck. A 27" TV now starts at $200 these days, does this mean people should not complain if they feel they not getting their $200 worth, when 5 year ago the same tv cost $500. Granted if people are angry at E*, they should goto D*, but that still dosen't discount that they have the right to be dissatisifed with E* for the business model they are taking.

People in the past used to make $5000 a year and were happy for that money, should a person today be satisfied with a salary of $5000 year? Just because "Thats the way it was in the past" dosen't have anything to do with today.

STOP LIVING IN THE PAST!

[HTguy]

2.3 Million was the peak # of C-Band Subs, 2.3 Million is on the low end of the definition "Millions". 20 Million DBS subscribers, now those are "Millions" And how many of those C-Band $5000 paying subs had no choice, as many were rural subs with no choice of cable. You are comparing apples and oranges when comparing C-Band subs vs the typical DBS sub TODAY...

STOP LIVING IN THE PAST!


Well, I respectfully disagree. The reason C-Band peaked at 2.3M (accepting your figure) and the reason DBS subs are approaching 20M is because DBS has always been more convienient & economical and it is still getting better & cheaper overall. That's my main point. So I don't think I'm living in the past.

But this thread is mainly about why existing subs pay more for the eqmt than new one. I explained why for the interest of people who weren't aware. A couple of you offered opinions to the effect that it is a "bad" business model. (BTW, it's essentially the same for D* altho their PVRs are cheaper since TIVO charges monthly for the service.)

So I still challenge you to start up a DBS service with a "better" model. A lot of retailers who want to make a profit on the "merchandise" the traditional way will certainly get on board with you.

As it is your paying less for the eqmt than the traditional business model and the promotions for new subs is building the subscriber base which in turn helps to keep the DBS companies in business and helps to keep programming costs from rising higher & more often.

:hi:

[abospaum]

HTGuy or should I say Charlie Ergen?

Don't get so defensive about Dish Network. There are thousands of ways that Dish could save money and get millions more subscribers. I'll name a few.

1) If Dish loses money on equipment then why did they decided to produce their own PVR's rather than relying on other manufacturers who produced the older model receivers. Also have you ever heard of economies of scale. If they made 5 million 721 receivers it would cost much less per unit than 50,000. This lower cost would enable more people to buy the units and would attract more people to Dish Network.

2) They could actually try to make a small profit on other equipment by encouraging people to hook up more receivers in their homes. I don't know how many people have more than 2 receivers in their homes but most Americans have more than that many televisions.

3) They could drop stupid fees such as the $4.99/month additional receiver charge. This alone might cost them upfront but would probably help to double the number of subscribers within a few years. Most of my friends and family with cable won't go to DBS because these costs make DBS significantly more expensive than cable for multiple tv households. Most TV's are cable ready and only require a box for the digital or premium channels but most cable subscribers may have 2 or more tv's without cable boxes.

3) Sell more PPV movies- Cost used to be $2.99 for one viewing and $3.99 for all day. Who watches a movie more than once in a day? Especially if you have a PVR or VCR this is not necessary. I used to get twice as many PVR's as I do now but my movie rental place only charges $3/movie so I tend to go there. Dish said that they got a market research study on movie rentals and found that most households hold movies for multiple days as they may not watch them together. Again these are completely separate markets and Dish doesn't seem to see that.

4) Do a better job of negotiating with the sports leagues. I used to get MSG from Dish and from cable. With cable I could watch all of the events at any time. My feed from Dish was blacked out during Knicks and Ranger games because I lived outside of the local viewing area. The same thing happens with multiple Sports Channels. Also DirecTV does a better job of getting the better packages such as the NFL Sunday Ticket. Get all of these events and they'll win away the D* customers.

So HTGuy or Charlie or whatever your name is while I like my Dish Network it doesn't mean that they do a perfect job. A little common sense would just help them to make more money as well as to make new and current subs happier.

If some other company was allowed to make their own 721 it would probably only cost about $300. Since Echostar isn't making any money on their receivers they should give the plans to other manufactures for free and allow them to produce equipment and compete.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by abospaum
HTGuy or should I say Charlie Ergen?

Don't get so defensive about Dish Network. There are thousands of ways that Dish could save money and get millions more subscribers. I'll name a few.



HOW DID YOU DISCOVER MY SECRET IDENTITY?! :evilgrin:

(Just kidding.);)

Hey, I'm not being defensive; I'm just telling you how the E* business works.

I don't see that other manufacturers are making PVRs significantly cheaper. They just use the same kind of model of selling them below cost on the front end and collecting over time on the back end with subscription charges for the PVR function, which E* has chosen not to do.

I'm not going to run down all your wonderful suggestions point-by point. I'm just going to suggest again that you use them to set up a new company & see how you do.

If you don't want the hassle of starting from scratch I'll let you in on another deal: GM has had a "For Sale" sign on DirecTv for a few years now. (Maybe because it's been bleeding red ink by the barrel for it's entire history.)

So why not get some investors together, take over D*, and show us all how to really run a DBS company?
:sure: