Name based Recording [Archive]

casta

02-04-03, 10:29 AM

I've had experience with a Dishplayer for years and put up with all of its quirks. After hearing about the PVR 721 I had to save and get one and finally did this past week.

Well, I had really mixed feelings. I like the dual tuners and the snappier menus and channel changing. I haven't spent much time on it as I am still setting up the dual tuner part, installing an additional cable. I've read there maybe problems with the SW64. I've noticed a lot of break up in the video and I am not sure if the switch is the cause... I certainly hope not.

The biggest disappointment is the scheduler for recordings. I can't believe the name of the show is not considered. The first night I setup a recording for a show then set it to record daily, thinking it would only record that time slot if the particular show I wanted was on. The next day it was recording some show that I did not care about in the same time slot.

Even the older dishplayer would distinguish time slots and show names and adjust itself for longer running show within the same time slot. It is not as good as the TIVO which will record a show if the time slot is moved, but the dishplayer was at least satisfactory. I can't believe the PVR 721, for all the money it costs, has gone to the recording feature set of a VCR... a 20+ year old technology.

Something is wrong with Dish!

Scott Greczkowski

02-04-03, 10:58 AM

Welcome Casta :hi:

Do a search of this forum and you will see some postings from me about Name Based Recording on the 721 (and for that matter 501/508)

There are lots of thing the folks at Echostar would love to have their PVR's do, however because of many reasons they are not quite able to do them now. This does not mean we won't see a feature like named based recording in the future, its just something we won't see at the moment. :)

dbronstein

02-04-03, 11:28 AM

Scott, you keep saying there are "reasons" that they can't do name-based recording. What are these reasons?

Dennis

Mark Lamutt

02-04-03, 11:56 AM

Dennis - the reasons are much more legally oriented than technically oriented in nature...

gcutler

02-04-03, 11:59 AM

I believe it has to do with Look and Feel lawsuits. If E* adds "Name Based Recording", it might infringe on some TiVo or Replay patents and cause a round of lawsuits (at least that is the belief)

ScottK

02-04-03, 12:36 PM

SteveinDanville

02-04-03, 02:37 PM

At what point does "look and feel" become the norm? Pepsi, Royal Crown Cola, Safeway Select, all have the "look and feel" of Coke. Can only two providers of a product have the same "look and feel"? I would think that who ever jumped in the boat second, whether it was Replay or TiVo, should have been guilty of "look and feel" violations, not necessarily the third one in the boat, namely, Echostar. Oh well, I'm not going on a rant, but name-based is FAR superior to time-based. You have to also get used to events recorded that have the wrong name associated with the show you recorded, i.e. my Thursday night recordings of first-run "Friends" that continually show up as "Access Hollywood" on the list of recorded PVR events.

gcutler

02-04-03, 02:42 PM

I know a guy who is a Patent Attorney, and he is on the gravy train for life. It seems there is little standard for determing a valid lawsuit. And the deepest pockets may have the advantage :(

casta

02-04-03, 03:31 PM

I don't understand the issues here. E* has the dishplayer which does have some name based recording. With that receiver, you can schedule a recording for the show to repeat daily/weekly which will only occur if the same name show is on in that time slot. This receiver is old and I don't understand what all the hoopla is about infringing on TIVO.

raj2001

02-04-03, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Mark Lamutt
Dennis - the reasons are much more legally oriented than technically oriented in nature...

Mark,

Is there an official statement from Echostar attesting to that?

Mark Lamutt

02-04-03, 04:35 PM

An OFFICIAL statement? No, as far as I know, Dish has not made an official statement to that effect.

Scott Greczkowski

02-04-03, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by casta
I don't understand the issues here. E* has the dishplayer which does have some name based recording.

That is NOT Echostar software, its microsoft software, thats the difference.

The reason why E* receivers do not have name based recording is the SAME reason why TIVO does not have Caller ID. :D

Blame the legal system

Scott Greczkowski

02-04-03, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by raj2001

Is there an official statement from Echostar attesting to that?

I have talked to many folks at Echostar about this issue. I don't there will ever be an "official" statement on it, the folks at Echostar are trying to come up with other ways to improve things without infringing on anyones patents. :)

There are some very smart folks over at E*, unfortunatly they have even smarter lawyers.

Randy_B

02-04-03, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by SteveinDanville
At what point does "look and feel" become the norm? Pepsi, Royal Crown Cola, Safeway Select, all have the "look and feel" of Coke.

Off the subject a bit, but Coke has been fighting the genericizing of their product name for years. If a product becomes a generic term in the public, they can loose their trademark (at least the enforcement of it). This has happened with Kleenex and Aluminium foil.

Karl Foster

02-04-03, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski

That is NOT Echostar software, its microsoft software, thats the difference.

The reason why E* receivers do not have name based recording is the SAME reason why TIVO does not have Caller ID. :D

Blame the legal system

Sorry, Scott, but I believe that is a crock. How did Microsoft implement name-based recording on Ultimatetv without infringing upon Tivo or Replay? Seems like a technical (or lack of technical) issue by the Dish PVR programmers.

gcutler

02-04-03, 10:23 PM

bunkers

02-04-03, 10:46 PM

I feel that DISH could certainly do something, but based on the battles between SBLU and TIVO, they probably DO worry a little about the legal aspects. I wonder why UTV/microsoft didn't have any legal issues with TIVO or REPLAY ? Maybe DISH worries the Microsoft could sue them for name based, saying that they copied the dishplayer code/logic that was coded for them by MS.

I think if DISH just modified their current timers to have the option to "roll" into adjacent timeslots (providing they don't have any conflicts when doing do), then that would fix most of the limitations which currently exist. The rolling capabilty could handle shows offset by 1 hour on either side of the timer and could also handle duration extensions of up to 1 hour on either side of the timer' timeslot (for variable length episodes).

My first vote would be to either enter in to a joint venture with SBLU/REPLAYTV and/or buy the ReplayTV division from the cash starved SBLU.

dbronstein

02-05-03, 07:48 AM

I agree that doing something with Replay would be the best way to go. The Replay software already does just about everything we want the 721 to do, so there's no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Dennis

Scott Greczkowski

02-05-03, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by karl_f

Sorry, Scott, but I believe that is a crock. How did Microsoft implement name-based recording on Ultimatetv without infringing upon Tivo or Replay? Seems like a technical (or lack of technical) issue by the Dish PVR programmers.

Whats to say Microsoft does not own a patent for the way it does name based recording in it's software.

I don't believe its a technical issue whatsoever, I am a programmer myself, besides programing the software and databases here at DBSTalk I also do programming for work.

I would say that in some aspects it would be EASIER to program a name based routiene then a time based routiene.

What does the future hold? Will we ever see name based recording on a Dish PVR? All's that I can say is Stay Tuned, until then I am going to enjoy my 721. :D

EvanS

02-05-03, 11:10 AM

I have also wondered about how M$ got name-based in the UTV.
Now I am new to both sat and PVR (got both when the 501 first came out) but isn't it true that... (1) the DishPlayer was 1st on the scene with name-based recording and (2) the DP code is very much M$?

without having any other insight I would have to wonder if maybe TiVO is not the patent holder at all...maybe it is Micro$oft. Maybe TiVO and Replay licensed from M$...and we all know how M$ is with it's licenses......

bscoles

02-05-03, 12:43 PM

I don't think this is rocket science :)

There are three ways to implement something.

#1 Design it without regard to existing patents & technology and then wait for the lawsuits and actions to begin.

#2 Design it without infringing on existing patents & technology and then wait for the lawsuits and actions to begin (I think that part is unavoidable because someone will always feel that you step on their patent toes)

#3 License/ purchase the right to use the idea/technology from the patent holder. A royalty fee would probably be involved and would thus increase the per unit cost.

Brent

gcutler

02-05-03, 01:03 PM

Well the #1 & #2 might involve lawsuits and NOT doing involves No Lawsuits, so No Lawsuits are cheaper. And #3 means paying someone, which is not cheaper.

And we know charlie, your 3 options either involve potential lawsuits or spending more money, charlie may have desire to do neither, thus no go.

Swampthing

02-10-03, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by casta
Even the older dishplayer would distinguish time slots and show names and adjust itself for longer running show within the same time slot. It is not as good as the TIVO which will record a show if the time slot is moved, but the dishplayer was at least satisfactory.

When ANGEL switched from Sundays to Wednesdays, my Dishplayer changed time slots automatically. I've also seen other programs switch slots over the years, and Dishplayer has always accomodated the changes as well.

Right now the only PVR with "Name based recording" (weren't we just calling this "event based recording" a few months ago???) is the infamous Dishplayer... so YES, Echostar does have a receiver with that capability. Dishplayer is a JOINT product between Echostar and Microsoft. It's just a choice about whether you want the extra baggage that a Dishplayer can sometimes bring... :shrug:

Greg Haynes

02-11-03, 03:54 PM

I do think were going to be stuck with Time based recording for quite some time or maybe forever.

watcher

02-13-03, 06:02 PM

I am new here so you will have to forgive me for asking a silly question. Can the 508 be told to record every friday on ch 122 from say 9 to 11?

This has nothing to do with what might happen to be in the slot, can I just tell it to record? For ongoing shows that I can never catch, that would be a big advantage. If the show moves in time, well I can live with that.

Bill R

02-13-03, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by watcher
I am new here so you will have to forgive me for asking a silly question. Can the 508 be told to record every friday on ch 122 from say 9 to 11?

Yes, you can do that by setting up a manual recording. ALL DISH PVRs (even the DishPlayers) allow setting up manual timers. It is especially useful if you want to record only part of a show. For example, one of my local stations has a two hour early morning news show (6 - 8 AM) and, of course, it shows up in the EPG as two hours. I just set up a manual timer to record the show from 6:00 to 6:30 daily.

RobbinMerritt

02-14-03, 08:59 AM

Since buying my 721, I've missed some parts of the name based recording that the DP7200 did, but there are up sides. Two things I don't miss are:

1) The unit recording a weekly series multiple times, like when HBO runs The Sorpranos more than once in the same time slot

2) Unable recording a different movie at the same time each week -- impossible to do before the manual option was added.

dbronstein

02-14-03, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by RobbinMerritt
Since buying my 721, I've missed some parts of the name based recording that the DP7200 did, but there are up sides. Two things I don't miss are:

1) The unit recording a weekly series multiple times, like when HBO runs The Sorpranos more than once in the same time slot

2) Unable recording a different movie at the same time each week -- impossible to do before the manual option was added.

A good name-based PVR doesn't have either of these problems. On my old Replay, you could specify days and/or times for the shows. So you could set a program for the Sopranos for just a specific day and time so you didn't get the multiple airings. And it also had manual timer ability as well as name-based so you could do the same time slot every week.

Dennis

raj2001

02-15-03, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski

That is NOT Echostar software, its microsoft software, thats the difference.

The reason why E* receivers do not have name based recording is the SAME reason why TIVO does not have Caller ID. :D

Blame the legal system

Ummm there are DirecTV receivers with CallerID now (have been for quite a while), and DirecTV is now controlling and branding the DirecTiVo boxes. So I don't think that's the reason, sorry.