Experience with DTV and Arbitration?

[V Davis]

Hello,
I had an R15 which was having issues with the Hard Drive. After several calls and troubleshooting with the customer care, they agreed to exchange the unit.

I received the replacement after a few days, sent the old one back and activated the new one. During the activation process, the rep mentioned the 24 month commitment. I stopped the entire process, got the reps name, and verified that this was a replacement and my contract should not be extended. The rep looked at my account, agreed, and we went forward with a successful activation.

A few days later I received a letter stating that I'd see a 19.95 charge on my bill for shipping and handling, and that I agreed to a 24 month commitment.

I immediately called, spoke to 4 different people and eventually got the issue escalated. They finished the investigation, and notified me that the commitment would continue for 2 more years.

At this point, I want to begin arbitration proceedings. All I want is to have my comittment set back to end August of 08, instead of Jan of 2010. I've been a customer for 4 years, always paid my bill on time, have NFLST, and generally don't have problems with DTV. This is it though....I'm done with them and going with FIOSTV one way or another.

Does anyone on here have any experience with DTV arbitration proceedings, and can you tell me your experience?

[Pink Fairy]

If it is a leased receiver, the commitment should not have been extended. I can't help you with arbitration - but I believe DIRECTV would fix the problem before letting the matter go that far.

[Upstream]

but I believe DIRECTV would fix the problem before letting the matter go that far.


If he already called, had the issue escalated, and DirecTV investigated and told him he has a new commitment, then what should he do to get DirecTV to fix the problem before going to arbitration?

[Pink Fairy]

Sometimes I wonder if you ever have anything postive to say.

Email, or write a letter. Either way, the problem should be fixed.

[V Davis]

Sometimes I wonder if you ever have anything postive to say.

Email, or write a letter. Either way, the problem should be fixed.

I e-mailed on it already... didn't get a satisfactory response. I really hate for it to have to go to arbitration, but it's become an issue for me. I don't want to be hooked to DTV any longer than necessary if they won't stand behind what their reps say. I'm not even trying to cancel now, just get the com. back to what it was.

I did some investigation on arbitrating though.

1. First I have to give them 60 days to attempt to resolve the issue informally by writing a letter to the legal dept.

2. Then I have to start the arbitration by filing papers with JAMS.

3. Then I pay the arbitration fee.

I'm guessing that the legal dept. will switch it back, but it shouldn't take that much effort.

I'll update the thread as I move forward.
B

[carl6]

...
3. Then I pay the arbitration fee.
...


Well, that should only be 3 or 4 times more costly than the cancellation fee if you break the committment.

Carl

[curt8403]

Hello,
I had an R15 which was having issues with the Hard Drive. After several calls and troubleshooting with the customer care, they agreed to exchange the unit.

I received the replacement after a few days, sent the old one back and activated the new one. During the activation process, the rep mentioned the 24 month commitment. I stopped the entire process, got the reps name, and verified that this was a replacement and my contract should not be extended. The rep looked at my account, agreed, and we went forward with a successful activation.

A few days later I received a letter stating that I'd see a 19.95 charge on my bill for shipping and handling, and that I agreed to a 24 month commitment.

I immediately called, spoke to 4 different people and eventually got the issue escalated. They finished the investigation, and notified me that the commitment would continue for 2 more years.

At this point, I want to begin arbitration proceedings. All I want is to have my comittment set back to end August of 08, instead of Jan of 2010. I've been a customer for 4 years, always paid my bill on time, have NFLST, and generally don't have problems with DTV. This is it though....I'm done with them and going with FIOSTV one way or another.

Does anyone on here have any experience with DTV arbitration proceedings, and can you tell me your experience?

there is Directv and then there is Directv, and what you really need is to put the whole thing in writing and send it to Direct customer service rather than call, the second step is going to be to have an agent of direct create an annual commitment dispute escalation to be sure that it gets to the correct directv department, hope this helps

[Upstream]

Sometimes I wonder if you ever have anything postive to say.



I think you pretty much know that I don't have a positive impression of how DirecTV manages their commitment policies and processes.

[curt8403]

I think you pretty much know that I don't have a positive impression of how DirecTV manages their commitment policies and processes.

I feel it could be managed a bit better

[dtrell]

vdavis, was your R15 replaced with an R15?

[ThomasM]

I e-mailed on it already... didn't get a satisfactory response. I really hate for it to have to go to arbitration, but it's become an issue for me. I don't want to be hooked to DTV any longer than necessary if they won't stand behind what their reps say. I'm not even trying to cancel now, just get the com. back to what it was.



DirecTV email is like dialing your own number over and over and getting a busy signal each time. (It's worthless) And, of course, what a CSR tells you on the phone is all heresay in a court of law (or an arbitration procedure).

I think it's terrible that DirecTV extends a programming commitment (or tries to) when one of their LEASED receivers breaks down (especially since many of them are "refurbs"). The $19.95 S & H fee on the other hand is very fair in my opinion. Various posters on this system have stated that you DO or DON'T get a commitment extension for exchanging a defective leased receiver.

I hope you follow through and push them up against a wall so everyone here knows exactly what the policy is and what is to be expected if a subscriber has a leased receiver failure.

DirecTV seems to love putting everything in writing. Subscriber agreement. Lease agreement. Do they actually have a printed agreement that you sign regarding replacing a failed LEASED receiver with another identical unit that states that a programming commitment extension will result?

Good luck and keep us informed!!

[V Davis]

Well, that should only be 3 or 4 times more costly than the cancellation fee if you break the committment.

Carl

No, the arbitration fee is the amount you would pay to file the suit (small claims for this) not to exceed $125.

vdavis, was your R15 replaced with an R15?
Yes, an R15 with a refurb R15.

To be honest, my thought (hope) is that they'll receive my complaint and intent to sue (arbitration request) and then just take it off. I'll follow through if they don't though.

[tim81]

a vital piece of info is missing from this post. was this an owned or leased receiver that was being replaced.

the fact that you're been a customer for 4 years and didn't include it in the post makes me think it was owned. but it would impact the situation and answers if it were one or another...

[V Davis]

a vital piece of info is missing from this post. was this an owned or leased receiver that was being replaced.

the fact that you're been a customer for 4 years and didn't include it in the post makes me think it was owned. but it would impact the situation and answers if it were one or another...

I thought that all R15s were leased (unless you paid the $400 or whatever it is).

I got that DVR installed around 12/20 of 2004, which means I've had it for just over three years. Do I need to look at some billing statements or something to find out if it was owned versus leased?

I do thank everyone for their input.

[HDTVsportsfan]

The lease policy started on March 1 2006. So it sounds like you own that receiver. Where did you obtain the original R15 from?



EDIT:
OK....Pinks response (below) about when the R15 was released is interseting. I never owned an R15....I have zero experience or history w/ that box.

[Pink Fairy]

If it was installed in 2004 there are a couple of things -

Could not have been an R15 - they weren't around till towards the end of 2005.

And it would have been owned, not leased - which should have generated a new commitment on the account.

You SHOULD have been informed of that. And it sucks that you were not.

I am thinking you had an R10.

[tim81]

yeah if it was before march 1 06 you own it, which means if it breaks down 4 years later you're stuck with replacing it. as a current customer you can but it for full price or get it for free and agree to the 2 yr commit. you could look into an electronic's repair person or getting a used r15 to get around the commitment, but to get one from them for free only paying the shipping they'll ask for a commitment :(

[Grentz]

In my understanding D* seems to do it like Cell phone companies do:

-If your phone breaks, to get a discounted rate you need to sign a contract for another 2 years. If you dont want to extend your contract, you pay the full amount.

The nice thing D* does is allow you to do it at any time even when you are under contract, most cell phone companies will not allow you to get the discounted rate even for a 2yr extension unless you are near the end or out of your current contract which can seriously suck if your phone breaks cause usually phones have a 1yr warranty and contracts are usually 2yrs!


and as the others said, you must have an Owned R10 if it was installed in 2k4 or early 2k5. My Tivo was installed in 2k5 and it was a toss up whether I would get a R10 or a Standard Series2 (like the DSR708), but either way it would be (and was) owned.

[ToiletKitty]

A replacement receiver activates a commitment if there is no protection plan. With the protection plan, they even send it free and there is no change on the commitment.

[Pink Fairy]

Only if you are replacing an owned receiver with a leased one ToiletKitty.

[gfrang]

How long have you had it ? They warranty for 3 months.

[V Davis]

I think I gave some incorrect information, but this has cleared up a few things.

I'm looking at my order history online, and I think the DVR must be the 11/05 installation as opposed to the 12/04 that I gave above. I'm assuming that must be the right time, as it was (and is) definitely an R-15. In fact, it's got a $99.00 charge associated with it, which I believe is the price for the R-15 then.

The original R15 came from DTV. I am very certain of that as it took the installer 2 days (and he never showed up untill 7 pm either night and was here till 11:00. In addition, he bummed smokes from me.)

So... this makes a little more sense to me now.

I apparently owned the receiver I sent back.
I activated a receiver that DTV gave me, and so started the two-year commitment over.

sigh.... what a crappy situation. Maybe I should try to get my R15 back and sell it, then use that to pay part of the early termination fee.

[HDTVsportsfan]

I don't know V Davis....that would be awful difficlut to do at this point. You'd have to get the "right" person on the other end of the line to pull that off.

When did you obtain the original (1st) R-15?

If you persue this make sure you have all of your facts and information straight. You may want to this in writing via certified mail if your serious.

Good Luck.

[V Davis]

I don't V Davis....that would be awful difficlut to do at this point. You'd have to get the "right" person on the other end of the line to pull that off.

When did you obtain the original (1st) R-15?

If you persue this make sure you have all of your facts and information straight. You may want to this in writing via certified mail if your serious.

Good Luck.

The original R15 was obtained (assuming I have the correct date this time) in November '05.

F@%#. I'm still going to send the 60 day intent to start arbitration letter. All they can do is say no. It doesn't require me to start the arbitration proceeding if I send that.

Anyone know the early termination fee off the top of their head? $500?

Thanks for everyone's input. It has helped.
I think this situation resulted from a combination of the DTV representative's ignorance, my ignorance of owning/leasing/knowledge of the contract and trusting a rep without having it in writing.
Live and learn (and pay) I suppose.

[HDTVsportsfan]

Geez..... had a brain cramp. I saw those dates and thought that was the month and day. Sorry.

That 1st R15 was obviously out of warranty. If you only paid 19.95, then from a dollars stand point you made out. The reality his you should have kept your 1st and paid 99.00 for the second. But obviously your complaint is the 2 year commit.

Which actually should only for 18 months for an R15 isn't it? I'm tired, i need to go to bed. :rolleyes:

[Pink Fairy]

No, it is 24 months.

The ECF - Depends on when he agreed to the new commitment.

If it was before November 19th, 2007 - then it is $12.50 per month for each month not fulfilled.

If after that, then it is $20 per month for each month not fulfilled.

I wish the outcome to be good for you V Davis.

[V Davis]

No, it is 24 months.

The ECF - Depends on when he agreed to the new commitment.

If it was before November 19th, 2007 - then it is $12.50 per month for each month not fulfilled.

If after that, then it is $20 per month for each month not fulfilled.

I wish the outcome to be good for you V Davis.

Thanks.
The newest one they are holding me too was "agreed" to on Jan 31, 08. So it would be $20/mo for each month. I had planned to look at switching to Fios in Sept. after my current one ended. That would put me around $360. I haven't made a concrete decision on Fios yet. The TV is pretty new in my area, but internet has been great for the last couple of years (maybe 1 1/2).

Well... obviously it's not the end of the world, and I suppose if I have to complain about something this is better than complaining about having cancer or something.

We'll see what happens. My time is valuable, but sometimes taking on the big guy can be entertainment in and of itself.

[CJTE]

If it is a leased receiver, the commitment should not have been extended. I can't help you with arbitration - but I believe DIRECTV would fix the problem before letting the matter go that far.

If its a leased (advanced) receiver replaced, not under the P/P, renewed 24mo commitment is the norm

[V Davis]

Just thought I'd throw an update out to everyone (I know you were all hanging on the edge of your seat waiting for me to get back to this ;)).

I sent out the required 60 day notice for informal resolution (Section 9, subsection (a) of the agreement) of dispute today via registered/return receipt mail.

Assuming they want to go to all the trouble of arbitration, I plan to request the tapes of all my conversations with DTV that they have recorded, if they can be located. I'm not sure how they would index those. (My understanding is that the JAMS rules allow for discovery in consumer arbitration).

[Elephanthead]

Yeah that is how you will win, kill them with discovery requests, depending upon the state you live in your ability to subpoena them could be infinite. Just keep filing away until they give up. Go after everything you can think of, request truckloads of stuff. Make them cry.

[Hansen]

If you ultimately decide you no longer want DirectTV to be your television provider, maybe FIOS or whoever you end up going with will buy out your contract by paying the early termination fee.

[dyker]

Moral of story to me after reading this: Tape all my conversations with D* myself. It IS legal if I inform them (as they inform me while I'm on hold).

[Elephanthead]

Unfortunately for you any written contract overrides any verbal agreement, but you could prove you entered into the contract under false presumptions and get it nullified.

[spartanstew]

If you ultimately decide you no longer want DirectTV to be your television provider, maybe FIOS or whoever you end up going with will buy out your contract by paying the early termination fee..

FIOS doesn't do that (since the OP mentioned FIOS), but maybe by September they will.

Another thing for the OP to consider: I've had FIOS available for a long time here and seriously considered dropping D* back in September. Until I really looked into it. If you're used to using a DVR, the FIOS unit is terrible. The only way to make FIOS palatable is by using tivo units along with it. Of course, you'll have to factor in the added costs of doing that when making your comparisons (cost to purchase + monthly fee). I have FIOS internet and it's great, but I wouldn't choose FIOS TV over D* currently (maybe things will change on FIOS' end by September). Many say the FIOS picture quality is better, but when I go to my neighbors (who has FIOS), I don't see any difference (and yes, I realize the displays and such are different) other than the fact that he doesn't currently have as much HD.

[airedale]

You are going to cost them more to go through this than it is really worth for them. I am interested in hearing what comes of this.

Good for you BTW!

[Ken S]

V Davis,

I would make very sure you understand all of the rules of the arbitration method that is going to be used before going forward. DirecTV may send a local lawyer who you can be assured will know them.

[CrazyforYeshua]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure why you are going forward.
The original TiVo was owned, they replaced it with a refurb. They have no obligation to not extend your contract, only on a leased unit.
Am I missing something?

[V Davis]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure why you are going forward.
The original TiVo was owned, they replaced it with a refurb. They have no obligation to not extend your contract, only on a leased unit.
Am I missing something?

Had they disclosed this fact to me when they agreed to send it, or clarified the issue when I activated the receiver, I would have no problem with this.
However, I made a specific point to bring this issue up and was assured that it would not extend my contract. (also, to clarify, it was not a TiVo unit, but an R15. I didn't even know it was owned and really still haven't seen anything from them that says it was)

To everyone else -
My intent is not to make them spend money by going through this. Really, I just want what I think is fair, but in the end it will be what the arbitrator thinks is fair, if it goes that far.

One of the things I offered as a resolution in the letter was to send back the R15 they sent me in exchange for the broken R15 I sent back, and return my committment expiration date to Aug. 08. Failing that, I even offered to return the R-15 and use one of my older black boxes (the small non DVR ones???) instead.

spartanstew, thanks for the information. I haven't looked too closely at it yet, and haven't heard much one way or the other on it. It's nice to get the opinion. I really haven't decided to leave DTV yet (my first emotional post in the thread to the contrary). I really do like the service, and this is one of the few problems I've had (installer was the other), so I'm willing to give them a chance to make this right.

I probably sound like one of those pain in the ass customers, but I'm not....

and yes, I'm definitely going to need to review the rules of arbitration. The JAMS site has a pretty comprehensive set of rules/regs to go by.

[itguy05]

and yes, I'm definitely going to need to review the rules of arbitration. The JAMS site has a pretty comprehensive set of rules/regs to go by.

Godspeed my friend. You have an overly optomistic view of arbitration - I think you are fighting an uphill battle.....

See this:
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/87946

95% of the time the arbitrators ruled in favor of the big guy.

"One arbitrator handled 68 cases in a single day – an average of one every seven minutes, assuming an eight-hour day – and ruled for the business in every case, awarding 100 percent of the money requested."

Good luck - you are going to need it.

[elbelcho]

Godspeed my friend. You have an overly optomistic view of arbitration - I think you are fighting an uphill battle.....

See this:
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/87946

95% of the time the arbitrators ruled in favor of the big guy.

"One arbitrator handled 68 cases in a single day – an average of one every seven minutes, assuming an eight-hour day – and ruled for the business in every case, awarding 100 percent of the money requested."

Good luck - you are going to need it.

holy crap that's scary. Sometimes I think I'm paranoid when I think that big businesses are actively trying to screw their customers. Then I see articles like this which confirm my fears.

[rudeney]

Don’t bother with arbitration. File a claim in your local small claims court to cover the costs associated with cancelling your contract. When they file a motion for dismissal due to a binding arbitration agreement, file a counter-motion denying the existence of such an agreement. It’s unlikely that D* will be able to produce a contract with your signature or even a recording of a verbal conversation where you agreed to it. A small claims court filing won’t cost you as much in arbitration fees, but it will cost them just as much in hiring an attorney in your local jurisdiction. On top of that, you might even get a sympathetic local judge to hear your case.

[dodge boy]

Yeah that is how you will win, kill them with discovery requests, depending upon the state you live in your ability to subpoena them could be infinite. Just keep filing away until they give up. Go after everything you can think of, request truckloads of stuff. Make them cry.

unless they just say o.k. and phoptocopy every piece of paper inthe corporate headquarters, that could be millions, and offer to have it shipped at your expense to your front door.... Wow that's alot of disovery to search through.....
It would be easier to:
1.) wait out the contract before canceling.
2.) pay the ETF (it's only money)
3.) Cancel don't pay the ETF, don't answer the phone for bill collector's, it's only YOUR credit.

[Jhon69]

Had they disclosed this fact to me when they agreed to send it, or clarified the issue when I activated the receiver, I would have no problem with this.
However, I made a specific point to bring this issue up and was assured that it would not extend my contract. (also, to clarify, it was not a TiVo unit, but an R15. I didn't even know it was owned and really still haven't seen anything from them that says it was)

To everyone else -
My intent is not to make them spend money by going through this. Really, I just want what I think is fair, but in the end it will be what the arbitrator thinks is fair, if it goes that far.

One of the things I offered as a resolution in the letter was to send back the R15 they sent me in exchange for the broken R15 I sent back, and return my committment expiration date to Aug. 08. Failing that, I even offered to return the R-15 and use one of my older black boxes (the small non DVR ones???) instead.

spartanstew, thanks for the information. I haven't looked too closely at it yet, and haven't heard much one way or the other on it. It's nice to get the opinion. I really haven't decided to leave DTV yet (my first emotional post in the thread to the contrary). I really do like the service, and this is one of the few problems I've had (installer was the other), so I'm willing to give them a chance to make this right.

I probably sound like one of those pain in the ass customers, but I'm not....

and yes, I'm definitely going to need to review the rules of arbitration. The JAMS site has a pretty comprehensive set of rules/regs to go by.



I can see by your posts that indeed all you want is what is fair.If DirecTV cannot produce the recording confirming your commitment.Then DirecTV should not extend your commitment.;)
Also if DirecTV doesn't get a handle on this type of problem in the future then it will end up costing them customers and possible income.My hope for you is that you receive what is fair.Good Luck!:)

[paulman182]

Godspeed my friend. You have an overly optomistic view of arbitration - I think you are fighting an uphill battle.....
See this:
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/87946
95% of the time the arbitrators ruled in favor of the big guy.
"One arbitrator handled 68 cases in a single day – an average of one every seven minutes, assuming an eight-hour day – and ruled for the business in every case, awarding 100 percent of the money requested."
Good luck - you are going to need it.

Perhaps this means that businesses only let issues go to arbitration if the evidence is firmly on their side?

That's the positive way of looking at it.

[Dave]

Perhaps it all go back to the law suit against DirectV about this very practice. If you do a search you will find the thread on here about the pending law suit against DirectV in California. Actually there has been a court case where companies can not force customers into an arbitration case. The company can be sued in court.

[Ken S]

You have a better chance of winning an argument with your wife than you do winning a case in front of a company-sponsored arbitration service.

[jahgreen]

You have a better chance of winning an argument with your wife than you do winning a case in front of a company-sponsored arbitration service.

JAMS is not company-sponsored. Company-selected, I suppose, but not sponsored. I doubt it earns much money due to DirecTV's arbitration provision because the amounts in dispute are likely to be small, so I don't think there would be a concern that a JAMS arbitrator would not rule against DirecTV for fear of losing business. Most lawyers I know would feel that JAMS arbitrators are even-handed, but they are likely to place great significance on the parties' contract, more so than a jury might.

[dhaakenson]

I'd also suggest contacting your state's Attorney General office to file a complaint. Also Better Business Bureau.