Condo Wiring Help

[mlx52]

Originally posted in DirecTV Installation Discussion and Support and it was suggested I post it here.

I live in a building that is serviced by MDU, our contract is up for renewal this year, and the building is considering switching to Comcast. I have a few questions about our wiring and possible upgrade paths for DirecTV. Currently, we can't get access to HD channels, we are limited to the 101 satellite slot. The building has 92units, with the coax run on a loop system (based on what I have seen there are 8 conduits with 2 coax cables in each conduit, so 16 loops). The cable seems to be RG-6, but MDU has told us that it is RG-59 (it is thicker than normal RG-59 if it is). Each apartment has 3 coax outlets with 0-2150mhz taps that continue the loop. If the building is currently receiving DirecTV signals, is MDU correct in saying that it can't be upgraded to HD because of the loop system?
Also, even if we can't get access to the new satellite slots would it be possible to diplex an OTA signal on to the line? The signals are stacked, as I had to buy a de-stacker for my HR20.

Thanks for the help

[DirecTv Chicago]

It is not entirely impossible but it is not ideal at the same time. I try to avoid loops whenever possible.

If I am understanding you, you basically only have 1 feed cable going back to your main telecom room for everyone 5-6 units within your building. This is where the problem lies with getting the HD signal, specifically the MFH2 system. Currently SWM's can only house 8 channels/tuners. Since you only have one cable going back you can only install 1 SWM for every 5-6 units.

If each tenant only had 1 H21 receiver you could make it work. However throw in a DVR or an additional receiver and you have maxed out the channels on the SWM and won't be able to get any additional receivers to designate a channel on the SWM. They will just keep searching for Sat until one of the other receivers on that SWM powers off or disconnects.

You may be able to set up an OTA but it would have to be diplexed in directly to the tv assuming your tv has an off air tuner built in.

I always recommend not taking no for an answer. You can always contact another System Operator in Chicago and request a site survey. They will bring their engineers out and look over the entire building and bring the issues back to Pace/PDI and even DirecTV to see how they can make it work. If you can receive MFH2 believe me when I tell you do not get Comcast. But if you can't and are stuck on the sat 101 I understanding switching.

[mlx52]

Thanks for the response. If the building were to move to a SWM system, with each unit being place on a home run type system does that mean people are going to have to replace their equipment? A lot of people have R15's, and D11's (on the newer end) and a good number also have old Sony/RCA boxes. No one, except for me, has a HR20 or R16.

Another question if MDU came in and rewired the building on a home-run type system would it be possible to keep the old system in place? Keep the loops in place for people who don't want to upgrade equipment, and the new home-run lines (conduits are too small for a home run, so we are going to run coax down the trash shoot) for the people that want HD. This should also allow for Comcast to come into the building, since it the coax can be switched from the SWM switch to a cable tap. I am correct on this logic or way off?

Thanks again

[DirecTv Chicago]

Yes equipment would need to be replaced. The only compatiable models to the SWM system are D12, R16, H20, H21, HR20 and HR21. However not everyone needs to switch over the the new system. What I do for many buildings is continue to run the Sat 101 system seperate to the MFH2 system. That allows those without any interest into getting HD service to remain on the old system and continue to use their older equipment.

But that is all under the assumption you can get home run cabling to the units. It is not cheap to rewire buildings and I doubt MDU will just agree to do that. However it is something you should look at as a building that you will need in the future.

Some companies will cover the part of the expense of the cabling if they receive a longer contract. They of course have to cover their expense of the installation.

[mlx52]

Thanks again for the help. I am starting to understand the SWM system, and think that might be the way to go for our building (at least on the video side). With the SWM system is it possible to diplex cable on to the line. The building is currently limited to 3 meg internet from ATT, and people are wanting an alternative provider for internet, is it possible to diplex this on to the same coax run?
The building is wiling to pay MDU to do the re-wire and it was decided to run the coax down the trash shoot.

Thank you

[DirecTv Chicago]

Thanks again for the help. I am starting to understand the SWM system, and think that might be the way to go for our building (at least on the video side). With the SWM system is it possible to diplex cable on to the line. The building is currently limited to 3 meg internet from ATT, and people are wanting an alternative provider for internet, is it possible to diplex this on to the same coax run?
The building is wiling to pay MDU to do the re-wire and it was decided to run the coax down the trash shoot.

Thank you

I have not run coax internet on a MFH2 system, however I don't see any reason why it would not work. All of my buildings with MFH2 are wired for CAT5 for internet so they have dual home runs, 1 for DirecTV 1 for Internet. CAT5 is really the way to go for the future. Better internet connection and prepares you for MFH3 in the future. It was probably hard enough to get your building to wire the new coax but if you could get them to do both I would highly recommend it.

[mlx52]

Is MFH3 available today? I feel like running Cat5 to each apartment would be a lot less work than home run coax, as we could probably use gigabit switches to expand capacity on each floor.
What, if any receivers are compatible with it? Do they do an Ethernet to coax transition at the last moment, or does it stay pure Ethernet based?

Thanks again

[DirecTv Chicago]

Is MFH3 available today? I feel like running Cat5 to each apartment would be a lot less work than home run coax, as we could probably use gigabit switches to expand capacity on each floor.
What, if any receivers are compatible with it? Do they do an Ethernet to coax transition at the last moment, or does it stay pure Ethernet based?

Thanks again

MFH3 is not commonly available as an industry standard but there are system operators in the Chicagoland area approved for installation of MFH3 systems. Many of the receivers would need to be upgraded but if your moving from a Sat101 system to MFH2 than the majority of your receivers would need to be replaced regardless.

It is pure ethernet from the closet to your unit.

[mlx52]

Thanks again for the help. Do you know of any MDU internet providers in Chicago. If we went with the MFH3 system it would seem to make sense to give everyone an IP connection as well. Currently, the highest speed we can get (although only 4000 feet from the CO) is 3 meg ATT DSL. Some tenants would like 10 megs or higher connections in their units, which was the reason for considering Comcast.

Thanks again

[DirecTv Chicago]

Thanks again for the help. Do you know of any MDU internet providers in Chicago. If we went with the MFH3 system it would seem to make sense to give everyone an IP connection as well. Currently, the highest speed we can get (although only 4000 feet from the CO) is 3 meg ATT DSL. Some tenants would like 10 megs or higher connections in their units, which was the reason for considering Comcast.

Thanks again


There are various MDU internet providers but the only two I believe that provide via Ethernet, which is what you would need for MFH3 are Access Media 3 and On Shore.

MDU, Comcast, etc will all provide via Coax or DSL.

[hellyea]

Thanks again for the help. Do you know of any MDU internet providers in Chicago. If we went with the MFH3 system it would seem to make sense to give everyone an IP connection as well. Currently, the highest speed we can get (although only 4000 feet from the CO) is 3 meg ATT DSL. Some tenants would like 10 megs or higher connections in their units, which was the reason for considering Comcast.

Thanks again

I live in a high rise in Chicago. We have, from what I've seen, the best MDU internet service around. We also have D* running on MFH-2 (recently upgraded). After signing the contract with them, they arranged for a a 100MB fiber line connected to the building. Then, it gets sent up through the phone wires as an ADSL 2++ system, though its not traditional DSL from the phone company. So each resident has the option of paying $15/month for 3MB/1MB service. That is the basic plan. You can upgrade all the way up to 18MB download for about $70/month, I believe. The uptime and service level is 2nd to none. our latency is about 50ms.

They are also able to, and prefer to, use an existing ethernet infrastructure. In my building, they were unable to because a previous ISP was using the ethernet (Anet - they suck). They are now putting together a proposal to use the ethernet structure so that we can have increased upload speeds. Their pricing is very reasonable, are negotiable, and they are very knowledged. Its a small company so they are very responsive. I highly recommend them and your residents will be very satisfied. They also hold quarterly tech seminars to teach your residents who may not be super tech savvy. Last time, they brought Apple in and had an open house with all of Apple's products, and Apple reps and an Apple Genius.

If you are interested, please PM me and I can give you their contact info. I just don't want to post it for privacy reasons.

[DirecTv Chicago]

I live in a high rise in Chicago. We have, from what I've seen, the best MDU internet service around. We also have D* running on MFH-2 (recently upgraded). After signing the contract with them, they arranged for a a 100MB fiber line connected to the building. Then, it gets sent up through the phone wires as an ADSL 2++ system, though its not traditional DSL from the phone company. So each resident has the option of paying $15/month for 3MB/1MB service. That is the basic plan. You can upgrade all the way up to 18MB download for about $70/month, I believe. The uptime and service level is 2nd to none. our latency is about 50ms.

They are also able to, and prefer to, use an existing ethernet infrastructure. In my building, they were unable to because a previous ISP was using the ethernet (Anet - they suck). They are now putting together a proposal to use the ethernet structure so that we can have increased upload speeds. Their pricing is very reasonable, are negotiable, and they are very knowledged. Its a small company so they are very responsive. I highly recommend them and your residents will be very satisfied. They also hold quarterly tech seminars to teach your residents who may not be super tech savvy. Last time, they brought Apple in and had an open house with all of Apple's products, and Apple reps and an Apple Genius.

If you are interested, please PM me and I can give you their contact info. I just don't want to post it for privacy reasons.


I assume you are talking about Park Milennium. I am familar with the company who provides service but believe they only have one building in Chicago currently.

Also many buildings do not have the luxury of Fiber to their location. Although that hopefully will be the norm in the future.

[hellyea]

I assume you are talking about Park Milennium. I am familar with the company who provides service but believe they only have one building in Chicago currently.

Also many buildings do not have the luxury of Fiber to their location. Although that hopefully will be the norm in the future.

I am talking about Park Mill. We didn't have fiber to the building previously. After we signed with this company, they arranged for it to be dug, buried, and connected. We didn't have to do anything. That took about 3 months, but well worth it.

If you came and surveyed our building, you'll see how fantastic of a job they have done. If you do choose to contact them, please let me know, as they said they'll upgrade me to their ultra plan for free if I can get them a lead. So it'd be a win win for all of us.

[mlx52]

I am talking about Park Mill. We didn't have fiber to the building previously. After we signed with this company, they arranged for it to be dug, buried, and connected. We didn't have to do anything. That took about 3 months, but well worth it.

If you came and surveyed our building, you'll see how fantastic of a job they have done. If you do choose to contact them, please let me know, as they said they'll upgrade me to their ultra plan for free if I can get them a lead. So it'd be a win win for all of us.
Thanks for the offer, had a Condo board meeting last night, and they don't like the idea of bundling internet into the deal, not sure why, but that is the direction we are taking.
Question about the new HD channels, I am not sure I completely understand how LiL works. If I have a HR21 and tune to CBS, will I still get the SD feed, or is it just the HD version now? I ask because it looks like Comcast SportsNet is on the same channel 640 with no differentiation between HD and SD.

Thanks again

[DirecTv Chicago]

Thanks for the offer, had a Condo board meeting last night, and they don't like the idea of bundling internet into the deal, not sure why, but that is the direction we are taking.
Question about the new HD channels, I am not sure I completely understand how LiL works. If I have a HR21 and tune to CBS, will I still get the SD feed, or is it just the HD version now? I ask because it looks like Comcast SportsNet is on the same channel 640 with no differentiation between HD and SD.

Thanks again

I believe that the original MPEG 2 channels such as TNT/ESPN/Showtime etc will have two different channels. ESPN for example would come in on HD as 73 and SD as 206.

The new MPEG4 channels are one station but in the guide you will see two options for your locals and national channels. For example A&E, channel 265, if you have an HD receiver it should default to the HD broadcast. But if you look in the guide there will be two A&E Channel 265, 1 HD and 1 Standard.

Comcast I would imagine is the same way I never checked. I believe I am correct on the above information, someone correct me if I am wrong.