Installed an SWM8, Lost all of my MPEG 4 HD!

[sjaroslo]

EDIT: For those of you who don't like to read the entire thread, in the end, my troubles had absolutely nothing to do with the SWM8. My dish had sagged out of alignment due to a broken/missing bolt, and it just decided to slip completely out of range on the same day that I did my SWM8 install. Dish is now realigned, signal strengths are great, and MPEG4 HD channels now come in great!


Hello. I am a semi-long-time lurker on the boards who probably got myself in a little over my head, bolstered by my readings here...:)

The short version of the story is that I installed an SWM8 and now I get constant 771 errors when trying to get an HD MPEG4 channel. When doing the satellite test, the 191, 110, 119 and 103s satellites pass, but the 99s and the 103c fail.

I have 2 HR21-700s and an HR10-250 and a 5LNB Slimline dish. I followed all of the directions on here as best that I could. I live in Northern California, in Silicon Valley.

The 4 coax runs from the dish to the inputs on the SWM8 are about 20' long. The HR10-250 is connected to the Legacy1 and Legacy2 ports. Although not being used for anything at the moment, I have my OTA input on the OTA port. The connection from SWM1 port (red) goes to the (red) port on the DirecTV power inserter. The other leg of the power inserter runs to my downstairs HR21--a run of maybe 15'. The SWM2 port is connected to the HR21 upstairs (new, just installed yesterday along with the SWM8), a run of maybe 40'.

I think that the MPEG4 channels are on the one of the 103 satellites? I took measurements on the HR21 downstairs before I did ANY work. On 103c, I registered all zeroes on every transponder on both tuners. On the 103s bird, I only registered a signal on transponders 15 and 23, and that signal was only 42 and 44, respectively (both tuners read the same). EVERYTHING WAS FINE WITH MY HD STUFF BEFORE I MUCKED WITH IT. Now, after the SWM8, I actually read slightly better numbers--the 103c still has no signal at all, but now on the 103s, in addition to transponders 15 and 23, I'm also picking up 6 (reading a 72 on both tuners), 18 (60) and 24 (50). It took over 20 seconds for the 18 to show anything and close to 30 seconds for the 24.

Needless to say, I am perplexed beyond belief. I don't remember reading about anyone who had a problem with these multiswitches.... Perhaps I should not have tried tackling the install myself, but it wasn't as if I even touched the dish--it had already been installed in January when I got the first HR21.

I'm open to any and all suggestions, and thank you in advance for your consideration.

Steve

[Kansas Zephyr]

Let's start simply.

Did you remove the BBCs?

Did you reboot the receivers?

Recheck the 4 coax runs to the SWM.

Can you remove the SWM, connect the dish directly to one of the HR21s, and does it start working properly again?

[Groundhog45]

Let's start simply.

Did you remove the BBCs?

Did you reboot the receivers?

The recommended installation procedure when I got the SWM5 was pull power to all of the receivers before connecting to the SWM, powering on the SWM and then plug the receivers back in.

[bluemoon737]

Let's start simply.

Did you remove the BBCs?

Did you reboot the receivers?

Recheck the 4 coax runs to the SWM.

Can you remove the SWM, connect the dish directly to one of the HR21s, and does it start working properly again?

Concur here, make sure the BBC's are removed and also the guideline is that the line between the power inserter to the SWM needs to be a minimum of 15'. Make sure the power inserter is turned on first then plug in the receivers and see how it goes.

[sjaroslo]

Thank you all for the advice. In answer to your questions:

The BBCs are removed
The receivers have been rebooted several times
The coax runs to the dish are fairly straightforward, although I replaced the 3 grungy ones that I had prior to yesterday with 4 brand new, factory-made cables yesterday
Can you remove the SWM, connect the dish directly to one of the HR21s, and does it start working properly again? I'm going to come back to this in a minute
The SWM PI was powered on before the receivers were turned on
I have a 15' cable between the PI and the SWM8

Tonight, after posting this plea for help, the same thought struck me as Kansas Zephyr suggests--I powered off the PI/SWM8, disconnected the line going to the downstairs HR21, installed a BBC and connected it to one of the lines running directly from the dish, thereby bypassing the SWM8 completely. Much to my surprise, the HR21 behaved exactly the same way that it did WITH the SWM8--no MPEG4 HD! I tried all 4 runs individually and none of them overcame the 771 errors.

So this is a cruel, cruel twist of fate that something just decided to go haywire with my dish the same day that I overhauled all of my wiring and installed the multiswitch? Man, who did I piss off enough to cause that kind of bad karma to catch up with me?

In retrospect, early Sunday morning when I started the project, I did measure all of my signal strengths, and every transponder on 103c had "0" signal strength, but I don't think that I actually tuned to an HD channel to make sure they were working.... I didn't know enough then to understand what the significance of getting all zeroes on the 103c meant.... But this was before I touched a thing yesterday, so if something went whack-o, I feel pretty comfortable in saying that it wasn't something that I did.

Again, I appreciate the help and I'll let you know the resolution of my technician visit scheduled for Thursday.

[Supervolcano]

This part probably doesn't make much difference, but let's check it anyways to set the record straight since it's easy to get this info.

Press/Hold the "INFO" button on each HR21 to get into the System Info.
Tell us what it lists for each receiver under:

"Manufacturer"
"Model Number"
"Past Upgrade"
"SWM Firmware version"
"SWM Library version"

[Supervolcano]

The 4 coax runs from the dish to the inputs on the SWM8 are about 20' long.

Perhaps I should not have tried tackling the install myself, but it wasn't as if I even touched the dish--it had already been installed in January when I got the first HR21.

The coax runs to the dish are fairly straightforward, although I replaced the 3 grungy ones that I had prior to yesterday with 4 brand new, factory-made cables yesterday.
Let's get this part straight. If you replaced the cables, then you obviously took the lnb assebly off the arm of the dish to hook up the 4 new cables, correct?

The SWM requires RG6 going from the Dish to SWM.
You can only use RG59 from the SWM back to the Receivers & Power Inserter.
Are you POSITIVE you used RG6 cables to the dish instead of maybe RG59 cables? If you not sure, then go look closely at it and it should be printed on it every foot or so.

You said you checked your 103(c) before you touched anything.
Are you POSITIVE you checked it before you replaced those cables to the dish?

You haven't mentioned what your signal strength looks like for 101, 110, & 119.
Are ALL transponders for 101, 110, & 119 above 90% (aside from a few zeros which are spotbeams) on both tuners for all 3 receivers?

[Supervolcano]

I think that the MPEG4 channels are on the one of the 103 satellites?
All the national MPEG4-HD channels are on 103(c).

All your local MPEG4-HD channels are either on 99(s) or 103(s) if they are available in your market.

I took measurements on the HR21 downstairs before I did ANY work. On 103c, I registered all zeroes on every transponder on both tuners. On the 103s bird, I only registered a signal on transponders 15 and 23, and that signal was only 42 and 44, respectively (both tuners read the same). EVERYTHING WAS FINE WITH MY HD STUFF BEFORE I MUCKED WITH IT.
This is the key part that makes NO sense to me.

So since January, you haven't had any signal on 103(c), but you've been able to watch MPEG4-HD versions of CNN, NFL Network, Tennis, Big Ten, HGTV, Food, USA, SCIFI, TBS, FX, MGM, A&E, BIO, Smithsonian, History, Bravo, NGC, DSC, TLC, APL, SCI, TOON, NICK, SPIKE, CMT, MTV, MHD, VH1, CNBC, FBN, & TWC ??????

OR were you POSSIBLY thinking that HBO, SHOWTIME, ESPN, ESPN2, Universal, TNT, HDTH, HDNet Movies, & HDNet were MPEG4? Because all of these are actually MPEG2-HD being broadcast from 101, 110, & 119 satellites.

[Supervolcano]

Although not being used for anything at the moment, I have my OTA input on the OTA port.
Is this wire really from an "Over The Air" antenna?
I hope this isn't the coax from your Local Cable Company.
And especially not from a Digital Cable Box!!

Cable company's line might cause a conflict when it's connected to the SWM's OTA input jack.

[Supervolcano]

Please triple check that your using SAT-1 instead of maybe SAT-2 port on both HR21's.

You do NOT have anything connected to SAT-2 of each HR21, correct?
Not even a BBC (B-Band Converter)!!!
If the BBC is still connected to SAT-2 port, disconnect it.

[GatorPhan]

You've got RG6 cabling running to the SWM from the Power Insterter?

[Supervolcano]

You've got RG6 cabling running to the SWM from the Power Insterter?
That's not neccessary.
;)
Check out the link in my signature to see how much RG59 I use.
I was in the first beta test groups of SWM8 users here at DBSTalk.

I specifically used a very long RG59 from SWM to PI to test if what DirecTV claimed was true or not ... and they were right ... RG59 seems to be fine EXCEPT FROM THE DISH TO SWM which is where RG6 is mandatory (unless you go over the stated 100' maximum from SWM to receiver, which this guy isn't).

Directv built the SWM8 so it would be compatible with old houses and old cable tv users that have a lot of RG59 prewired throughout their house.

------------

I strongly suspect he has a bad LNB, but I'd like to hear the rest of his answers before making that decision.

[K4SMX]

.....Tonight, after posting this plea for help, the same thought struck me as Kansas Zephyr suggests--I powered off the PI/SWM8, disconnected the line going to the downstairs HR21, installed a BBC and connected it to one of the lines running directly from the dish, thereby bypassing the SWM8 completely. Much to my surprise, the HR21 behaved exactly the same way that it did WITH the SWM8--no MPEG4 HD! I tried all 4 runs individually and none of them overcame the 771 errors.

So this is a cruel, cruel twist of fate that something just decided to go haywire with my dish the same day that I overhauled all of my wiring and installed the multiswitch? Man, who did I piss off enough to cause that kind of bad karma to catch up with me?.....
Maybe this is nothing more than a simple alignment problem. Why don't you post your 101 and 119 signals?

[houskamp]

Thank you all for the advice. In answer to your questions:

although I replaced the 3 grungy ones that I had prior to yesterday with 4 brand new, factory-made cables yesterday
think here lies the problem.. to run the nw cables you took the LNB off and changed them right? you might have bumped the dish some (it doesn't take much)...

[dave29]

think here lies the problem.. to run the nw cables you took the LNB off and changed them right? you might have bumped the dish some (it doesn't take much)...

agreed, or the new runs have some shielding touching the center conductor

[Hansen]

Thank you all for the advice. In answer to your questions:

The coax runs to the dish are fairly straightforward, although I replaced the 3 grungy ones that I had prior to yesterday with 4 brand new, factory-made cables yesterday




Can you expand on this? Did you replace ones that went directly to the LNB, or did you replace ones that went between the grounding block SWM8, or between SWM8 and receivers? It sounds like you replaced ones that went to the LNB but you also said new 5 LNB dish was installed in January, which suggests new wiring was likely.

[Hansen]

Please triple check that your using SAT-1 instead of maybe SAT-2 port on both HR21's.

You do NOT have anything connected to SAT-2 of each HR21, correct?
Not even a BBC (B-Band Converter)!!!
If the BBC is still connected to SAT-2 port, disconnect it.



This seems like a good possibility that would seem to cause the problem.

[Hansen]

The receivers have been rebooted several times






I assume you're doing either a menu reboot or a red button reboot. If so, try unplugging the receivers for a few minutes and then plug them back in.

[ssmith10pn]

although I replaced the 3 grungy ones that I had prior to yesterday with 4 brand new, factory-made cables yesterday

Since when can you buy a factory premade cable suitable for anything more than a jumper from the box to the TV?
That sounds like the problem.

[veryoldschool]

Since when can you buy a factory premade cable suitable for anything more than a jumper from the box to the TV?
That sounds like the problem.
I've bought "premade" RG6. They come in 50' & 100' lengths with connectors. Works fine.

[randyk47]

I've gotten some great "premade" RG6 cables in lengths from 6' to 25' and use them in several places in my DirecTV/OTA cabling setup without any problems.

[DirecTv Chicago]

A stupid question but did you check the LNB settings? If you have it set to 3 LNB you could still have been receiving the MPEG 2 channels off the 119 all a long. The newest MPEG 4 channels come off I believe the 103 and 99 and need to be set to 5 LNB.

It seems to simple to be the case but you never know. Also make sure you have all the lastest software downloads, probably not the case as you have had it up and running since January.

[sjaroslo]

I appreciate all of the replies!! I'm on West Coast time and I've been stuck in an all day meeting, and still will be for a few hours. The short answer on the LNB/cabling questions: When Ironwood installed the Slimline in the first place, he ran probably 10' of RG6 from the LNB and then tied in to my old, existing cables. Everything I did on Sunday started with the barrell connectors that were on the ends of those cables he installed--I did NOT touch the dish or the LNBs.

I believe that up until SATURDAY NIGHT, yes, I was able to enjoy all kinds of MPEG$ HD content that was on my HR21 that I couldn't get before: Food Network, Spike, on and on and on. What I don't know is if I could still see all that stuff on SUNDAY MORNING, when I took all of my measurements and got zeroes.

If the new RG6 cables that I bought were bad, would I have any signal at all? I'm getting tons of stuff, just not the new HD channels.

I don't have BBCs connected; I'm only connected to SAT1 on the HR21s--nothing on SAT2.

The OTA is really OTA, honest.

Most of my signals on the 3 birds that I'm getting are VERY LOW--almost nothing over 70, most in the 50s and 60s. I'll post these tonight.

I don't have the exact info but I know both boxes are on the latest firmware, the SWM firmware thing was 1.0.0 and the SWM Library was 1.0.8, or vice versa.

Haven't done the power cord thing.

OK, meeting's starting up again, sorry, I'll post again tonight. Again, I really appreciate the advice and direction.

Steve

[Supervolcano]

Most of my signals on the 3 birds that I'm getting are VERY LOW--almost nothing over 70, most in the 50s and 60s. I'll post these tonight.
Then that's the culprit.
101, 110, and 119 need to be up in the 90's.
Post all signal strengths when you get home.

Haven't done the power cord thing.
That IS a very important step you missed then.
You were supposed to literally UNPLUG the receivers before installing the SWM.
Please do this in the future when you play with the SWM...
...For your own good.

[mjbehren]

That IS a very important step you missed then.
You were supposed to literally UNPLUG the receivers before installing the SWM.
Please do this in the future when you play with the SWM...
...For your own good.

Very true. All power cords must be out when hooking up an SWM. I too skipped that step when I installed my SWM5; with not so good results. After starting over by removing power from everything, removing all cables, reattaching them, powering the SWM then finally powering the receivers everything worked.


Mb

[sjaroslo]

Then that's the culprit.
101, 110, and 119 need to be up in the 90's.
Post all signal strengths when you get home.


That IS a very important step you missed then.
You were supposed to literally UNPLUG the receivers before installing the SWM.
Please do this in the future when you play with the SWM...
...For your own good.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. After taking all of my measurements in the morning, the next thing that I did was shutdown and disconnect all systems, unplugging the power and the network connections, everything. I was not going to do all of that wire work and install a new (to me) product like the SWM8 with all of my gear connected up and powered on. So only after the SWM was installed and powered up did I begin connecting up my gear.

What I meant is that since I ran in to this problem, I haven't actually unplugged the HR21s, I've just done Red Button Resets.

I'll post up my numbers tonight. Again, thanks so much to all for taking an interest and offering suggestions.

Steve

[sjaroslo]

As promised, here are my BEFORE numbers, taken Sunday morning before I touched anything (both tuner 1 and tuner 2 were within a point of each other, so I'm omitting tuner 2 for clarity's sake):

101 satellite
1-57
2-58
3-51
4-71
5-50
6-69
7-50
8-67
9-51
10-51
11-53
12-58
13-57
14-68
15-54
16-69
17-59
18-0
19-57
20-83
21-58
22-70
23-60
24-66
25-64
26-0
27-66
28-0
29-67
30-67
31-55
32-69

110 satellite
8-64
10-63
12-67

119 satellite
22-77
23-77
24-74
25-0
26-79
27-76
28-79
29-67
30-77
31-75
32-80

99 satellite
1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
6-0

103(s) satellite
1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
6-0
15-42
16-0
17-0
18-0
19-0
20-0
21-0
22-0
23-44

103(c) satellite
1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
6-0
7-0
8-0
9-0
10-0
11-0
12-0
13-0
14-0
17-0
22-0

Like I said above, this is feeling like a cruel karmic joke, if my reception finally "fell off of the edge" on the very morning that I undertook all of this work...

Thanks again.

[veryoldschool]

Sorry but those levels a horrible. You should have 90s on all SATs unless it's the 99/103 spots.

[waynebtx]

Agree those are very low number either your dish needs realined or the lnbs are bad.

[Hansen]

As stated by others, those signals are really bad. You need to get those in the normal range before moving onto whether any other problems exist. I suspect your SWM problem comes back to these low signal levels. Either the dish is out of alignment or you have a bad LNB. Start with alignment. Since things worked since it was installed in January, something might be lose and it moved slightly. Are the monopoles installed? Either you can realign it or have DirectTV fix it since you're in warranty still and if it's a bad LNB then they can take care of it at that time.

[Supervolcano]

In 10 years of satellite stuff, I've never seen a "bad lnb" exhibit the behavior of cutting all Ku signal strengths in half, which is exactly what has happened to sjaroslo.

Problem is very simple to me.
Realign the dish.

Peak the 101 with elevation and azimuth.
Then peak the 119 with tilt.
Then use the fine tuning screws to peak 103(c).

Here's the instructions for Slimline dish if you need them.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/Slimline_Dish_Installation_Manual.pdf

[CKNAV]

In 10 years of satellite stuff, I've never seen a "bad lnb" exhibit the behavior of cutting all Ku signal strengths in half, which is exactly what has happened to sjaroslo.

Problem is very simple to me.
Realign the dish.

Peak the 101 with elevation and azimuth.
Then peak the 119 with tilt.
Then use the fine tuning screws to peak 103(c).

Here's the instructions for Slimline dish if you need them.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/Slimline_Dish_Installation_Manual.pdf


I concur. Dish needs to be aligned. It should not move once done, but I have seen installers forget to tighten all the screws at initial installation.

After you finish make sure you tighten all the screws on the dish.

[randyk47]

Those numbers are marginal to bad. I surprised that the OP wasn't experiencing more problems prior to the switch to SWM. The smallest weather condition should have knocked out what little signal he was getting. I'd also agree that for most installations, if done properly the first time, will not easily slip out of adjustment. Sure, it can happen but it should take a pretty significant event.

[sjaroslo]

We're blessed in Northern California to have pretty mild weather, but I had noticed a few problems during our last "storm" (which was really just a moderate rain shower) so I was a bit disappointed/concerned but otherwise things were working OK. As I had mentioned, I have an installer scheduled for tomorrow morning, so at least now I am confident to steer him directly to dish alignment and not have to worry about fighting with him about what an "SWM8" does or what "problems" it might have caused.... In retrospect, when thye did my original install back in January, it was late at night, cold, the installers had asked me if I would mind re-scheduling, which I did, because I had taken the entire day off and they didn't show up until close to 8 PM.... The guy did the initial alignment using some audio meter and I don't think he actually looked at any measurements on the TV and certainly did no tweaking or final adjusting.... I was too naive to know better, obviously....

I'll give y'all an update after Thursday. Thanks again.

[sjaroslo]

Just to put a fork into this thread, DirecTV sent out a tech today who discovered that the bolt in the upper strut of the dish mount was broken in half. Since there was some rust on the broken ends, and based on where he found it sitting, my guess is that it broke when the initial installation was done, but the installer figured that the lag screws in to the side of the house would be adequate. He was wrong. My guess is that the dish has been slowly sagging for a while (gravity can be a b*tch) and through a horribly cruel cosmic coincidence, chose the weekend of my SWM8 install to finally sag to the point where I lost my 103 signal altogether.... After the addition of a new bolt, a realignment, tightening of a few other bolts that were not too secure, I am back in the land of the living with scores in the 80s and 90s, and all of my MPEG4 HD channels are back!

Thanks again for all of the help and encouragement, both in my specific thread and just in general with the forthcoming information regarding the SWM8. The tech today had never seen one and I temporarily stumped the tech support people on the phone but they pretty quickly recovered.

Also kudos to Jeff at Weaknees who was very helpful, supportive, and willing to send me out another unit just to prove that the SWM8 wasn't the problem. Luckily I did not have to take him up on that offer.

Steve

[Supervolcano]

Glad we could help.
I love happy endings!!!
Come on everyone, GROUP HUG!!!
:group: