Thoughts about a Consolidated "Known Issues" Forum [Archive]

dyker

03-04-08, 07:37 AM

I just have a few thoughts and wonder if anyone else would see the suggestion in this thread as beneficial. I see the thread above HR20-700: 0x1FE Issues / Discussion (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=119547) but I was wondering if the Mods have ever considered creating a sub forum of known issues. Once an issue is known to be... well, a known issue then it could be moved to that sub-forum. I could look there first to see if what I'm about to post is a known issue or is it something new. If it is already a known issue, I could just add a "me too" post to that particular thread.

It is nice to be able to add an item to the "all hr20-700 0X1FE" issues thread and I have done it a few times. I was just wondering if one step further would be helpful for us posting and help consolidate issues for the Moderators. This time I was adding a comment about my remote not responding. What would be nice is to have a forum with "Known Issues" with threads like Lipsync, Audio Drops, Remote not Responding, etc. I realize these posts mingle here in the "DirecTV™ HR20/HR21 Q&A" forum but as they are posted they end up dropping off the page and other "discussion" threads come in.

I think it would be nice to have a place were I could add a "Me too" to a specific problem about that version of the firmware.
All the "remote not responding" messages would be under a single thread.
All the Lip Sync Issues would be under a thread.
All the "Audio Dropout" issues would be under a single thread.
All the "My recording was blank" issues would be under a single thread.

And I'd know the mods recognized my issue as "known" and I can constructively add to that pointed thread. (A known issues doesn't mean there is a known fix, or that there is a known sequence of events to reproduce the issue). Like I said above, we have that somewhat now as we have "All Lipsync Issues" sticky above, etc. It would mean moving a sticky like that to the new forum. But for example, woudln't it be nice to see a break-down of the HR20-700 0x1FE Issues thread with has 253 posts in it with # posts about a particular issue? So you could break it down:
7 Posts Non-responsive Remote
40 posts Lip Sync
17 posts audio dropouts
37 posts audio dropouts
....

Maybe this is already being done somewhere but since I'm new to this forum I don't know where.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 07:41 AM

It has been attepted before, to create a running list.
I think we have had at least 3 attempts at it.

If you are willing to step up to the plate to maintain a new list...

Doug Brott

03-04-08, 07:45 AM

I'd have to agree with Earl here. We're definitely willing to host such a thread here, but someone needs to maintain it. Unfortunately the thread will require a fair amount of commitment to be successful.

Steve

03-04-08, 07:47 AM

Here's (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103743&highlight=bug+list) the most recent of the 3 attempts Earl referenced. It's actually still pretty current, AFAIK. cbaker did a great job with it. /steve

dyker

03-04-08, 07:55 AM

My thought was that if there were a sub-forum made specifically for SPECIFIC issues it could be community updated. Each thread in that sub forum would be for a new particular issue. Mods would only need delete "wishlist" threads and general discussion from that sub-forum. Mods could countrol the titles to the threads in that forum to give consistancy too.

Kind of "fire and forget" and let the community add their particular situation "here is how the remote stopped responding in my situation" to post. That way, it wouldn't need to be maintained by one single person. It would also show frequency of issues based on the number of unique posters to a particular issue.

Has something like this been tried before?

Stuart Sweet

03-04-08, 07:57 AM

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 08:01 AM

My thought was that if there were a sub-forum made specifically for SPECIFIC issues it could be member updated. Each thread in that sub forum would be for a new particular issue. Mods would only need delete "wishlist" threads and general discussion from that sub-forum.

Mods could countrol the titles to the threads in that forum to give consistancy too. Kind of "fire and forget" and let the community add their particular situation "here is how the remote stopped responding in my situation" to post. That way, it wouldn't need to be maintained by one single person. It would also show frequency of issues.

The Mods have talked about it before... and it was decided that it the forum community really wanted it, someone would have to step up to maintain it.

(Not necessarily a dedicated sub-forum)...

If you all want to start a thread... to discuss what criteria will be used to classify something as a "known" issue.... (Such as... does this issue have to affect every user? What percentage of users... A standard way of tracking them to eliminate duplicates/similar issues under different descriptions... ect)

I am not trying to "poo-poo" the idea... but it is a lot of work to do and maintain.

If someone is willing to dedicate the level of work necessary for it... then we can discuss the logistics of how it will fit into our forums here.

dyker

03-04-08, 08:26 AM

I really like the idea but honestly having been part of one of the attempts it is a total pain. The hardest thing is knowing when to take something off the list. If no one sees it in a week? A month? 2 national releases? What if only one person reports the issue is still there but no one else does, do you point fingers at that one person?

Well here is a question. Is there a way on a thread using this forum software to only allow a member to post a single time in a particular thread? This way a thread would fall off the page unless new unique posters added their experience with "me too and here is how it happened to me". It would also only contain unique posters. If someone wanted to update their issue they could go edit their post... not add a new post to keep it "at the top". It would stay at the top based on the frequency of unique posters. A sticky post at the top of the sub-forum could contain a link (and post count) to all the known issues being discussed. Yeah, that would take someone to update unless a bot could do it.

The nice thing is if it was only a handful of people wanting to discuss an issue they could come back to this forum to discuss further. On the FatWallet.com or SlickDeals.com forums the SECOND thread of every posting is a wiki type posting editable by all in the community. The community could clearly summarize the thread using the wiki.

Maybe this isn't possible with the current forum software.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 08:29 AM

Well here is a question. Is there a way on a thread using this forum software to only allow a member to post a single time in a particular thread? This way a thread would fall off the page unless new unique posters added their experience with "me too and here is how it happened to me". It would also only contain unique posters. If someone wanted to update their issue they could go edit their post... not add a new post to keep it "at the top". It would stay at the top based on the frequency of unique posters. A sticky post at the top of the sub-forum could contain a link (and post count) to all the known issues being discussed. Yeah, that would take someone to update unless a bot could do it.

The nice thing is if it was only a handful of people wanting to discuss an issue they could come back to this forum to discuss further. On the FatWallet.com or SlickDeals.com forums the SECOND thread of every posting is a wiki type posting editable by all in the community. The community could clearly summarize the thread using the wiki.

Maybe this isn't possible with the current forum software.

There is no such feature in the forum software.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 08:53 AM

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 09:01 AM

Can the mods PLEASE put a sticky on this thread?

Why?

We have made them a sticky in the past... but the same thing occurs.

If someone can prove to us (the mods)... that this would be a different case...
Then we can re-evaluate it.

Stuart Sweet

03-04-08, 09:07 AM

Earl's right. When the original poster in one of these threads can't maintain it anymore, it becomes a source of false information and fingerpointing.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 09:25 AM

The Mods have talked about it before... and it was decided that it the forum community really wanted it, someone would have to step up to maintain it.

(Not necessarily a dedicated sub-forum)...

If you all want to start a thread... to discuss what criteria will be used to classify something as a "known" issue.... (Such as... does this issue have to affect every user? What percentage of users... A standard way of tracking them to eliminate duplicates/similar issues under different descriptions... ect)

I am not trying to "poo-poo" the idea... but it is a lot of work to do and maintain.

If someone is willing to dedicate the level of work necessary for it... then we can discuss the logistics of how it will fit into our forums here.
Earl, you know I begged for a bugtracker way back. I think I even pointed you folks to a vbulletin hack that would accomplish that, if I remember right.

The answer at that time was you guys (and directv) didn't want that sort of "clear cut list" of all the known bugs, with the reason being that it would become fuel for directv's competitors.

---------------------

I am willing to put the neccessary effort into this. Even if you didn't use a bugtracker software (which would be the easiest way), a dedicated forum could accomplish the task.

The trouble with having "one thread" for "all issues" like cbaker's is it depends on 2 key factors.

1) That cbaker updates it regularly.
2) That each individual post starter updates his own bug with latest firmware version.

Otherwise, if everyone in the forum starts responding "yes, I still have that issue and that issue and that issue" as new posts in the thread, then the thread will become 10,000 posts long in a month or two, and THAT could NEVER be managed.

---------------------

If it was a "forum", with each thread dedicated to "one issue", the all users have to do is goto the end of the thread to read if that bug still exists in current firmware. In my opinion, that would be pretty easy to manage (at least for me).

If your worried about the logistics for how to determine whether the reported issue is an unverified bug, verified bug, or fixed bug .... All bug reports (first post of thread) start out with a line in top post saying "Bug Status: Unverified" .... and after a certain number of posts (or a trend is spotted) a moderator would change the first post to reflect "Bug Status: Verified" .... and someday when the bug gets fixed (and verified by several users who did have the problem) change status to "Bug Status: Fixed" and closed the thread. If the bug never gets fixed, then the thread never gets closed.

---------------------

If you want to talk more about this privately, PM me.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 10:15 AM

Earl, you know I begged for a bugtracker way back. I think I even pointed you folks to a vbulletin hack that would accomplish that, if I remember right.

The answer at that time was you guys (and directv) didn't want that sort of "clear cut list" of all the known bugs, with the reason being that it would become fuel for directv's competitors.

---------------------

I am willing to put the neccessary effort into this. Even if you didn't use a bugtracker software (which would be the easiest way), a dedicated forum could accomplish the task.

The trouble with having "one thread" for "all issues" like cbaker's is it depends on 2 key factors.

1) That cbaker updates it regularly.
2) That each individual post starter updates his own bug with latest firmware version.

Otherwise, if everyone in the forum starts responding "yes, I still have that issue and that issue and that issue" as new posts in the thread, then the thread will become 10,000 posts long in a month or two, and THAT could NEVER be managed.

---------------------

If it was a "forum", with each thread dedicated to "one issue", the all users have to do is goto the end of the thread to read if that bug still exists in current firmware. In my opinion, that would be pretty easy to manage (at least for me).

If your worried about the logistics for how to determine whether the reported issue is an unverified bug, verified bug, or fixed bug .... All bug reports (first post of thread) start out with a line in top post saying "Bug Status: Unverified" .... and after a certain number of posts (or a trend is spotted) a moderator would change the first post to reflect "Bug Status: Verified" .... and someday when the bug gets fixed (and verified by several users who did have the problem) change status to "Bug Status: Fixed" and closed the thread. If the bug never gets fixed, then the thread never gets closed.

---------------------

If you want to talk more about this privately, PM me.

Yes, I remember it..
And I also remember replying that it was a hack that did too much to "change" the system, to be something we would consider implementing.

Yes, one of the reasons that DirecTV doesn't post their internally maintained list of issues, is because of their competitors...
But also because it is fluid and changes.... so even with our software here, it get's googled and indexed... (hence one of the reasons why the CE is subscription only, so it won't be indexed)....

The bigger concern is that very old data is referenced in cases where it is no longer the case...

If you are serious about doing it...

Pick two or three of the hot issues... and start there...
If after sometime... it turns out to be a viable thing, that is used... and maintained and kept upto date... then we can discuss again expanding it to something larger.

(NOTE: This should not stop anyone from posting a thread about an issue they are having).

But first... develop some criteria on what would be considered a "Trackable" bug.... is it something that will be "known" because 1, 2, 10 people are having the problem... or does it have to be experienced by a percentage of the user base...

How will you eliminate issues that could be issolated to a users setup, outside of the platform.

Will this just be the HR2* , or will the R*, H*, D* also be done.

If you want to drive the bus... pick up the keys, find some passengers and see what you can put together.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 11:40 AM

Yes, I remember it..
And I also remember replying that it was a hack that did too much to "change" the system, to be something we would consider implementing.
Hmmm, I don't recall that. If I recall correctly it was pretty much self contained, meaning not many modifications to the existing stuff ... and with the advent of "Products" and "Plugins" ... installing most hacks is cake.

Yes, one of the reasons that DirecTV doesn't post their internally maintained list of issues, is because of their competitors...
But also because it is fluid and changes.... so even with our software here, it get's googled and indexed... (hence one of the reasons why the CE is subscription only, so it won't be indexed)....
No biggie, bugtracker or seperate forum, either way, putting it inside the Cutting Edge forum is where "I" would desire it to be anyways ... and that would make it a "child forum" which inherits the Cutting Edge permissions by default.

The bigger concern is that very old data is referenced in cases where it is no longer the case...
Don't understand what you mean by "very old data". If we created this "new forum" or whatever, each new thread would get started by someone who has the issue TODAY, not 2 months ago.

And even if I did go back to some old bugs and start a new thread for an old user, I would list it as "unverified", not "verified" .... until several others report that they can verify it still exists.

If an unverified bug falls to page 4, guess directv can either call that a "low priority bug" (or ignore it if they feel they fixed the flaw at some point awhile back).

If you are serious about doing it...

Pick two or three of the hot issues... and start there...
If after sometime... it turns out to be a viable thing, that is used... and maintained and kept upto date... then we can discuss again expanding it to something larger.
1) I am serious about doing this.
2) The ONLY way to even begin this is with a dedicated forum, or else the bug reports will fall to page 2 by tomorrow and never be seen again by the majority of users.
3) When your ready to do this, simply create a subforum called "CE Bug Tracker" inside the main "Cutting Edge" forum.
4) If /when it proves effective, maybe it can be EXPANDED upon by maybe creating 3 more subforums inside the Bug Tracker forum for Verified, Unverified, and Fixed .... and then MAYBE, just MAYBE even a wishlist forum (although the current wishlist does it's job pretty effectively).

I'm not asking that you set up the forum right now.
I like the idea of working out the details first.
;)

(NOTE: This should not stop anyone from posting a thread about an issue they are having).
Absolutely!!!
Maybe way down the road that could be eliminated, but that shouldn't be done until the new system has gone beyond proving itself.

Will this just be the HR2* , or will the R*, H*, D* also be done.
Definately all models. I wouldn't even put the model number in the thread title. Post #1 should list what model number(s) the originator experienced it on. If someone else posts in the thread that a different model experiences the same flaw, then post #1 should get updated to reflect what models the bug appears in. If one receiver gets fixed while the others haven't, then a seperate line on the post #1 should say "fixed for model XXXX-YYY in software 0x123". The thread shouldn't get closed until all of the receivers listed are free of the bug.

Is it something that will be "known" because 1, 2, 10 people are having the problem... or does it have to be experienced by a percentage of the user base...
I guess as we get into receivers that don't have as many downloaders, criteria for determining unverified, verified, & fixed will have to be lessen than for models like HR20-700 that get 600 votes every week, so I suppose some sort of percentage would have to be involved.

But I wouldn't set any numbers "in stone" as there are plenty of true bugs that affect very few users and sometimes never the same user twice (like the "receiver goes into standby mode during download" bug).

I'd say to start things out, we should play it by ear and make judgement calls based on the nature of the individual bug.

How will you eliminate issues that could be issolated to a users setup, outside of the platform.
Eliminate isolated "user setup" bugs by leaving the status of the bug as "unverified" and asking the user to go start another thread to troubleshoot "him". If the oodles of DBSTalk Debuggers here can't solve his issue, then chances are he really has a "bug", and then we go back and list it as verified and link to why. If we solve his issue, then we either delete his bug report completely, or move it to another appropriate forum, Or close it with "fixed", OR maybe have another status tag called "user setup fixed".

If you want to drive the bus... pick up the keys, find some passengers and see what you can put together.
Not until we are in agreement.
If it starts with half-ass methodology, guarantee it to fail.
And before we set up the forum, I think a one-time poll might be in order.

1) This would see how much interest there would be in such a thing.
2) It would prepare everyone on what the new forum would be about so hopefully they don't flood it right off the bat.

dyker

03-04-08, 11:51 AM

The bigger concern is that very old data is referenced in cases where it is no longer the case...

If you don't want Google to index a sub forum update the robots.txt file on this site (http://www.dbstalk.com/robots.txt).

http://sitemaps.blogspot.com/2006/02/using-robotstxt-file.html
http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/adv_tech/robots.htm

Or you could make the new sub-forum subscription only too.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 12:04 PM

Hmmm, I don't recall that. If I recall correctly it was pretty much self contained, meaning not many modifications to the existing stuff ... and with the advent of "Products" and "Plugins" ... installing most hacks is cake.

And when we (the admin/mods) reviewed what actually needed to done, it wasn't a straight plugin and need some other tweeks...

Also, all products/plugins/ect are on hold, until we complete our migration to the latest software of VB

No biggie, bugtracker or seperate forum, either way, putting it inside the Cutting Edge forum is where "I" would desire it to be anyways ... and that would make it a "child forum" which inherits the Cutting Edge permissions by default.

We will not be making a dedicated sub-forum at this time. As I said earlier, start a few threads and we will see where it goes... and it works out, then we will consider a sub-forum..

Don't understand what you mean by "very old data". If we created this "new forum" or whatever, each new thread would get started by someone who has the issue TODAY, not 2 months ago.

But in 5 months from now, there will be content in there that is old... and may no longer be applicable. We have users that do come in here and do searches, and pull up threads that are YEARS old...

1) I am serious about doing this.
2) The ONLY way to even begin this is with a dedicated forum, or else the bug reports will fall to page 2 by tomorrow and never be seen again by the majority of users.
3) When your ready to do this, simply create a subforum called "CE Bug Tracker" inside the main "Cutting Edge" forum.
4) If /when it proves effective, maybe it can be EXPANDED upon by maybe creating 3 more subforums inside the Bug Tracker forum for Verified, Unverified, and Fixed .... and then MAYBE, just MAYBE even a wishlist forum (although the current wishlist does it's job pretty effectively).

As noted... we will not be creating a sub-forum at this time.... start with just a few issues (no more then three). We can stick those in the CE forum.

Not until we are in agreement.
If it starts with half-ass methodology, guarantee it to fail.
And before we set up the forum, I think a one-time poll might be in order.

1) This would see how much interest there would be in such a thing.
2) It would prepare everyone on what the new forum would be about so hopefully they don't flood it right off the bat.

As noted... we will not be setting up a dedicated sub-forum at this time.

So you can create three threads, and we stick them... and evaluate it over the next few weeks (or months)... to see how well the process works, and maintains.

If say by... the end of April, we can evaluate the process and see if it warrants the growth...

Ken S

03-04-08, 12:47 PM

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 12:49 PM

I'm sure DirecTV must have a knowledge base of some sort. Why don't they make that available online? That's a great starting place for tracking bugs. Because, while we may consider something an ongoing bug if DirecTV doesn't there's little chance it will ever change.

As noted above... there are many reasons on why DirecTV doesn't make their internal data tracking, available to the public.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 01:15 PM

Ummmm, I'm having trouble thinking of a response that won't piss you guys off.

Limiting it to "3 test threads" would be very half-ass'ed.
If one of my choices for topic fails, that's a 33% failure.

Sticking them to the CE forum, where there's already 17 stickies makes people cry that everything is moving to page 2 too fast ... and unfortunately 10 years of running forums taught me a long time ago that a lot of people hate going to page 2 (myself NOT included, but that's just me).

Not sure why your hung up on not adding a subforum. Subforums are easy to delete if you don't like what's going on. You just mass move the threads back to the CE forum and delete it. Takes about a minute to create and another minute to delete for any vB amatuer. When there gets to be too many threads, remove the forum permission for users to start "new threads" and let the current ones keep going until you make a decision on how it's going.

------------------

.... But before I just say "thanks, but no thanks", let me think about and see if I can come up with 3 topics.

Anyone have suggestions?
Post your recommended topics here (if anyone's reading this) :lol:

------------------

As for the what about the old issues that are 5 months old, like I said, if no one responds that it's fixed, you leave it open. Maybe that guy who searches and finds the thread 5 months later will post in there to say .... "wow, I still get this issue and didn't even realize it til now" .... and followed by another 10 users saying "me too" since the thread finally came back to page 1 where most people read from.

Why do threads have to close? In the 10 years I ran forums, the only threads I or my mods ever closed were fights .... but I am conceeding that when a bug DOES get fixed and VERIFIED TO BE FIXED, the bug thread SHOULD get closed.

dyker

03-04-08, 01:22 PM

Earl, why won't you create a sub forum? As noted... if it doesn't work you can "poof" delete it. SV, were you gonna create a poll?

dyker

03-04-08, 01:29 PM

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 01:29 PM

Not until we are on the same page.
I'm not going to start something I won't want to finish.
And if it's half-ass'ed, it's not going to be from my hard work.
That's not how I operate.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 01:29 PM

I have laid it out there..

If you the users feel there is a need... not just a handfull of you....
But if there is a real need for yet another sub-forum... for "issue" tracking...

Show us.

We have had this conversation at least three times in the last year...
In those three attempts... they started off great... but then things disolved....

So seriously...
That is what I am offering... Pick three topics... and prove the technique, and we will expand it from there.

Yes it is easy enough to build, and create sub-forums.... but that isn't the point.

The point is... this has been attempted multiple times, and has failed at least twice, the jury is still out on the third.

If the demand is there... we will build it.

And fine... instead of the CE forum... we can create it here.

But at this time, it will be a trial of those three threads/issues.

As for why I am hung up on it?

I am the one of the people responsible for the DirecTV forums, there structure... and the growth....

So unless you want to table this discussion, and forgo any theory testing on how this will work out... while we re-discuss it with the other mods/admins...

The three threads is what we can offer you today...

If there is merit to the process... then it is an easier case to prove and thus get agreement on it's creation.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 01:40 PM

SuperVolcano, the reason the thought came to mine (sub-forum) was as I was keying in the latest problem (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1483757&postcount=255) I was having with a HR21-700 I decided (after keying in) to search for the issue in that thread. I found it posted 3 other times. I wondered... was the issue lost in the thread? A random posts lost in the whole thread?
Lost to DirecTV's engineers?
Nope, I'm sure they saw them, and I would EXPECT that they logged the issue in their own "internal bug list" which they don't disclose.

Lost to the majority of the forum users?
Yes, and they won't "look to see if they can reproduce it" if they didn't read it.

Don't worry, your not alone. There probably aren't a lot of users who read every post in every issues thread. You were actually one of the better people when you decided to search first. Most people don't even know where the search button is (or bother using it) ... much less being able to think of good keywords to search on ... and I'm not kidding!!
:lol:

And aside from the reading, a lot of people don't post in the issues thread simply because they don't want to take the time to write a long reply. I even fall into this catagory a lot. If there was a thread for each issue, your response becomes "I get that too in this version" .... which then gives directv a better idea of how "widespread" a problem is.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 01:50 PM

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 02:07 PM

Earl, hold off on your "roundtable discussion".

1) Let me think about it more.
2) Let's see if anyone (and/or me) offers up 3 worthy topics.

Earl, do I have your permission to start one thread in the CE forum asking them to come read this thread .... if/when I choose to .... Or do you MAYBE want to just move this thread over to that forum instead so this one stops getting tracked by spiders and unregistered people?

This thread can stay here...

As for those in the CE... sure, create a thread... but I would hope, that those same readers are monitoring the Q&A forum, as we have requested they do.

dyker

03-04-08, 02:14 PM

The point is... this has been attempted multiple times, and has failed at least twice, the jury is still out on the third.

Was it attempted in a sub-forum or was it an individual post that failed? I'm new here, just asking. I was simply looking for a simple way to list known issues along with frequency counts and wasn't aware of the long history, politics, or anything else that that lies beneath the history of past failed requests.

The HR 20-700 0x1fe issues thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1483757#post1483757) is nice but there is nothing that tells me what has been reported in there, if other uses have posted similar problems, etc. The idea of a sub forum would give me what has been reported and a more pointed place to report my specific issue along with the (perhaps misguided) belief that it would be posted next to the same problem others are having and maybe provide D* better feedback for fixing the issues and seeing frequency of posting over issues/bugs.

Yeah, there is only so much time in the day for maintaining it. The question then becomes "Does it add value" and if so how much? Nobody wants to waste anyones time. I'd find it beneficial. SuperVolcano would as well. Some other mods posted comments. But it is otherwise quiet.

As far as moving this to hide it from spiders... the HR 20-700 0x1fe issues thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1483757#post1483757) thread is out there for spiders to read and competitors to see. So why move this discussion thread. OTOH, it is just pretty much the three of us discussing it and it'll probably move to page 2 soon enough :D

I defer to the tenured posters and mods (since I have no authority than to do otherwise) :)

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 02:19 PM

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 02:19 PM

Single/Multiple thread attempts (we had two attempts at a large single thread)... and one that was issue based.

Nothing sub-forum based.

The first two attempts were all stuck so they remained at the top of the forum... the later was un-stuck with too many complaints of too many stuck items in the CE forum.

The Issue threads, are there for people to report issues with that specific versions to DirecTV.. They are not intended to be an issue tracker.

And hence why they reset and change when we get a new software update.

As for the "spiders", since those threads are release specific... it should be clear to anyone if it applies to them or not, all they have to do is check their version number.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 02:22 PM

Earl, the people who constantly and consistently bring the quality feedback are in the CE forum ... And as much as you WANT them to come here to HR20 forum, a lot won't for several various reasons.

And then there's the fact, like I said in post #13, that for the system to work it would need feedback from all model's users .... HOWEVER PLEASE don't move this to the general discussions forum unless you truely do want this to fail!!! It will be on page 5 by the end of the day!!!

Just leave it here in the HR20 forum.
*sigh*

I said it would stay here in the HR20 forum.... When referring to "general", I ment the receiver specific general, vs the CE.

But where then will we host Sub-forums?

Should we have 4 sub-forums for the issue trackings?
(R15/16, Other SD-Receivers, HR20/21, Other HD-Recievers, What about product specific things... like DirecTV.com, ect)...

Or should we have 1 sub-forum, that all the issue tracking is there...
Or should it go three levels deep...

General DirecTV->Issue Tracking->(model level)

Or is this going to be for the HR2* platform only?

(aka... and all the other questions, I have to answer to the people that own/operate the forum, that go into the bigger picture)

houskamp

03-04-08, 02:26 PM

I got too many forums to read already :(
And the way it is they just fall off the page when they die..
only thing I would like is to tag every thread with the version number and if it reapears/continues start a new one and lock the old one..
Just to keep the threads from crossing CEs forever..

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 02:27 PM

I got too many forums to read already :(

DING DING... one of the larger reasons on why we don't use a LOT of sub-forums....

gcisko

03-04-08, 02:32 PM

Yes, one of the reasons that DirecTV doesn't post their internally maintained list of issues, is because of their competitors...

What about the vague release notes? It that for the same reason? I sort of hope so :)

I also notice that Vertical Stretch is still with the latest CE. On any CROP format. It is a continuing issue for sure, but hope do we determine if it is enough of an issue to track?

Stuart Sweet

03-04-08, 02:36 PM

If I may suggest, for those of you who are serious about giving this a try, that you set up a time when you can discuss things like that in the chat room. Set ground rules, divvy up responsibilities, and when you are ready, come back and start architecting your new thread.

cbaker

03-04-08, 02:45 PM

Just to add my two cents to the "discussion":

1) I think it is a catch-22 in that it is a lot of work to maintain a list on your own, but in my opinion for it to be somewhat accurate/fair in reported items yet complete without a ton of extra 'chat' getting in the way, it would need to be set so only a limited set of people could update it.

2) I believe that many people just accept bugs in the system and don't report them on the weekly CE's because after months of saying the same issue every week, it just seems like a waste of time to report the item again, and again, and again. (deaf ears and all..) So they become "features". This is why I started my list.

3) The reason I kept the list up was to draw attention to these issues with the hope of getting them addressed by D*.

I have ask to have the list sticky'd to draw attention to it, but they didn't want to because of the number of other stickys. I have had several users suggest other ways to do the list so it could keep attention on these items, but all involve coordination by the moderators of this site. Not sure how that would be received since moderator time seem precious - they do too much already.

My hope was for these items to be fixed. Unfortunately, that wasn't happening. New features seem much more important than fixing long term bugs.

Example, correcting the inconsistent wording in menus can't be that difficult to address technically. I mean really, how hard could it really be to change the wording on a few menus .... 5 months after I started the long term bug list still there...

So I still ask the question without an answer:
Either D* doesn't think these are issues or doesn't care about fixing them because they find them unimportant/inconsequential.

So to have a list that is one way (we report with no feedback other than to hopefully see an item addressed months/years later) is very frustrating.

Realistically we all do things in our life for a reason (work vs reward). I updated this list for 4+ months on a weekly basis and commented on almost every weekly CE on how this list was or was not being addressed. My reward was to see these items addressed.

Unfortunately, it was mostly not being address by D*. There was little work being done by D* on these issues, little interest in making them a sticky by the mods to draw attention to the list thus having to "bump" it every day, and not even a "want to beta a XXXX" since we know how much work this is. The work vs. reward ratio just wasn't worth it.

(I am just a user here so take my comments as such. A user with only 300 or so postings per the stats ... probably more like 2000 if you count the edits ... rather edit than just add to the clutter by posting more..)

I just feel like there is not much appreciation for this list that draws attention to problems with the D* gear. Other than great comments by many users here, I felt like the list was unappreciated by this site and D*. Again, my opinion based on lack of response.

Since I personally find the list important and believe in the CE process, I still update the list every few weeks when I do a CE cycle. [...but only when I am bored with Halo 3 ;-) ] But I don't really believe any item will be addressed.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 02:46 PM

But where then will we host Sub-forums?
For the system "I" envision, every thread needs to be model generic.
This way all users for all models look though all threads.
If they come across a thread that relates to a problem they are having, they post.

Top post would reflect (at all times) the current status of "which receivers this bug affects" as well as "which receivers this bug has been fixed for".

This would probably help directv more than anything, because THEN they'll see better data for problems that are universal to all models, or all hd-dvr's, or all sd-dvr's, or all hd receivers, or maybe just one model. You'll get a wider variety of people "looking for that bug".

Or should we have 1 sub-forum, that all the issue tracking is there...
Or should it go three levels deep...

General DirecTV->Issue Tracking->(model level)
Just 1 subforum for all issues combined.
So I guess "General DirecTV->Bug Tracking".

But CE's are so "rapid fire" pretty much weekly while national's are at best once every few months. This will cause GREAT CONFUSION as you'll have all the national guys posting they still have the bug while the CE guys are saying it's fixed.

This is yet another reason I feel this has to be done in the CE forum.
"General DirecTV->DirecTV Cutting Edge->Bug Tracking"

What about product specific things... like DirecTV.com, ect...
Interesting, I didn't think of that, but of course yes, lump those in that one Bug Tracking forum too!!! SWM, Dishes, Directv Website, Crappy installers, by all means, if it's an "Issue/Bug" lets squash it and make a thread for it in there.

(I was just kidding on the crappy installers, leave that one for the regular discussion rooms)
:lol:

cbaker

03-04-08, 02:53 PM

Earl's right. When the original poster in one of these threads can't maintain it anymore, it becomes a source of false information and fingerpointing.

The catch-22 .... Why would someone want to put in the work to maintain it (stay with it) if it will just be buired in the chatter 5 min after it is updated.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 02:56 PM

only thing I would like is to tag every thread with the version number and if it reapears/continues start a new one and lock the old one..
NO WAY!!!
That 100% defeats my purpose.
Issue is an issue until it's fixed.

The "last known affected version number" will be listed inside Post #1 of the thread.

If there's 50 threads on the exact same issue it...:
1) pushes every thread further and further down the pages.
2) makes everyone stop looking through the special forum since there's 50 threads for each of the 100 bugs .... which in my math is 500 threads!!! Keep it at JUST the 100 issues and nothing more.

Now if a bug DOES get fixed for all models, then it gets closed.

If that same fixed bug reappears down the road, THEN you start a new thread AND LINK TO the old one to say "you brought this old fixed bug back in software 0x9999".

cbaker

03-04-08, 03:05 PM

I have laid it out there..

If you the users feel there is a need... not just a handfull of you....
But if there is a real need for yet another sub-forum... for "issue" tracking...

Show us.

We have had this conversation at least three times in the last year...
In those three attempts... they started off great... but then things disolved....

[SNIP]

If the main CE forum is so filled with sticky's that the bug list can't be sticky'd (I consider a FAQ and should be sticky'd) and D* coming out with more and more models, why wouldn't there be multiple sub forums in the CE area, one for each model. (And no user posting main CE posting area.)

I know that most moderators probably have multiple models for CE'ing, but I would guess most users here only CE on a single (or maybe two) types of units. So sub-forums would be beneficial in allowing postings targeted toward their unit.

With more and more models for D* why not have sub forums based on model. Then you can sticky things like the weekly CE issues, long term bug list, key polls, etc. without issue. It would also allow posts for just that model.

Again, I know you power users have ton's of sub-forums, but if most users like myself don't have the time to read every last post in the CE area let alone Q&A, .... things just get lost. Sub-Forums could address this and many other issues. Something like:

DirecTV™ - Cutting Edge
(Moderator Postings and Stickies only)
HR20/21
(Stickies - Weekly CE Issues, Long Term Issues, Polls, etc / Postings on that unit)
H20/21
(Stickies - Weekly CE Issues, Long Term Issues, Polls, etc / Postings on that unit)
R15...
.
.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 03:06 PM

And the way it is they just fall off the page when they die..
Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of past bugs just get forgotten about. People repeated them and repeated them and after it never getting fixed they just gave up talking about it.

I got too many forums to read already :(
DING DING... one of the larger reasons on why we don't use a LOT of sub-forums....
1) One more forum isn't going to kill you, I'm not asking for much in this regard.

2) If one more is just too many, then stop reading one of the others since you won't have to look through it for bugs. This should help things since you won't have to read 20 threads all discussing the same darn thing ... which is what this forum is FILL TO THE GILLS with ... just like most forums.

3) Or don't read the Bugs Forum. No one is twisting your arm. I don't expect to please EVERYONE, but if my hunch is right, it WILL please the MAJORITY.
;)

Tom Robertson

03-04-08, 03:14 PM

First and foremost, we are very willing to see a project along these lines started. We will be very happy to do what it takes from the moderators that does not involve a tremendous amount of moderator time.

Before the next effort will involve any major changes to the forum structure or additional tools, several things must be proven. Think of them as the entry criteria for the project to be greenlit.

1) A champion, leader, visionary who can prove they have the skills, the time, and the dedication must step forward. Projects of this nature must have a champion to envision, lead, build, and oversee the execution.
2) A well thought out plan, detailing all the issues will be handled: Tools, entry, update, review, and volunteers to create the necessary team.
3) A pilot test using existing forum tools to simulate the work of the final solution, even if the tools are vastly different from the forum today.
4) Champion, moderator, and user buy-in. Of course the champion should buy in, but the moderators (and owner) and the users need to buy-in as well.
5) Time to prove the champion can actually keep up with this project.

That last item comes from the fact we've had 3 aborted attempts started by three excellent people. All of them did an awesome job--against a massive mountain of work. We do not want to start #4 without a high level of likely success--so the champion must prove themselves, however they see fit, as being able to manage the load. Hopefully by building a team to share the load.

Possible tools: 1) Sub-forum(s), 2) a vB bugtracker option, 3) a wiki system, or 4) something unmentioned so far.

All of them have their strengths and weaknesses. The champion will be given free reign to DREAM, but not free reign to assume that a given tool will be approved of by the Admins/Owner.

So if anyone really, really wants to do this, develop a complete plan. Show how users would enter, others would review and edit, how DIRECTV could pull from that list easily (as well as users), and how the team would be built.

AND how it could be simulated with the existing forum structure and tools.

Prove your thoughts, you have a chance. :)

"Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining" this whole project are welcomed. Thankfully, these judges ain't blind. :)

Your challenge--to show the fortitude.

Cheers,
Tom

Tom Robertson

03-04-08, 03:20 PM

Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of past bugs just get forgotten about. People repeated them and repeated them and after it never getting fixed they just gave up talking about it.

1) One more forum isn't going to kill you, I'm not asking for much in this regard.

2) If one more is just too many, then stop reading one of the others since you won't have to look through it for bugs. This should help things since you won't have to read 20 threads all discussing the same darn thing ... which is what this forum is FILL TO THE GILLS with ... just like most forums.

3) Or don't read the Bugs Forum. No one is twisting your arm. I don't expect to please EVERYONE, but if my hunch is right, it WILL please the MAJORITY.
;)
SV, you're point #0 is the big key. This is a massive mountain of work. Someone has to prove they have what it takes to see this project to a completion of being fully operational.

Until then, no more 1 more forums. Make a plan, test the plan, then present it.

Thanks,
Tom

armophob

03-04-08, 03:33 PM

cbaker

03-04-08, 03:35 PM

[SNIP]

That last item comes from the fact we've had 3 aborted attempts ...

FYI - If I am 1 of the 3, I have not aborted. Just see no reason to be bumping my post daily and testing for items weekly anymore as I posted above. But unless I bump it every day, you are probably right, it might as well be aborted.

IMHO, for this to be worth the effort it deserves, some feedback from D* on these items is invaluable. Why test every week for a bug if D* doesn't consider it a bug and will never address it.

ONE OF MANY EXAMPLES ... Screen saver flashing. Random but easily repeated. EXTREMELY ANNONYING in a dark room. But hasn't been addressed for 5+ months. If D* doesn't consider it an issue, then a wasted effort to talk about it. It is just a "feature".

Again, until you focus on these items daily for 4+ months with little or no feedback (item being fixed, comments from D*, etc) it is hard to convey the frustration of such an undertaking.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 03:36 PM

The catch-22 .... Why would someone want to put in the work to maintain it (stay with it) if it will just be buired in the chatter 5 min after it is updated.
This is where the Bug Tracker forum would shine.
It would "maintain itself" for the most part.
It's ALL THE USERS who will be providing the feedback.
This system doesn't "depend solely" on the bug's originator and/or the master list keeper.

And even if the first post doesn't get updated, the members just have to read a few posts on the last page of the 400 post thread to see if the issue is fixed or not, and for what last known version.

Only work involved is:
1) building up the initial post to get all models affected.
2) when people finally start claiming it's fixed, update status.
3) update version number when reports are coming in that it still exists.
4) and this would be (hopefully) mostly the initial poster of the bug who will do the updating of first post (with the safety net of a moderators staff should he forget about his thread someday). Shouldn't be too tough to manage top post of 50 or 100 threads every couple weeks. Like I said, I'll do it if the current mods have a problem lending the hand when someone falls off the face of the forum.

-------------------

Here's the benefits of a forum and seperate threads:

50 users can post their "+1 on this issue for software 0x9999" in ONE THREAD for each software version .... instead of 50 users posting their "+1 on this issue for software 0x9999" FOR EACH OF THEIR 50 ISSUES IN ONE THREAD.

50 organized posts per week in 50 different threads.
or
50 unorganized posts per week about each of 50 different issues in 1 thread.

It's no wonder why the old methods failed.
Which thread would YOU rather read?
The one where 100% pertains to you?
Or the one where 2% pertains to you?
It's a no-brainer to me.
There were several months back there that I gave up trying to read the issues thread.

armophob

03-04-08, 03:37 PM

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 03:38 PM

ONE OF MANY EXAMPLES ... Screen saver flashing. Random but easily repeated. EXTREMELY ANNONYING in a dark room. But hasn't been addressed for 5+ months. If D* doesn't consider it an issue, then a wasted effort to talk about it. It is just a "feature".

Again, until you focus on these items daily for 4+ months with little or no feedback (item being fixed, comments from D*, etc) it is hard to convey the frustration of such an undertaking.

So lack of a fix... you assume that DirecTV doesn't consider it an issue...

The fact is... they know about it, however it is not a CRITICAL issue... and is prioritized a such.. (as is every issue).

And that fact that still remains, is some of these minor issues, may ultimately be resolved in bigger segments of re-work, thus take time... effort... and other things to resolve.

The issue threads... I have spoken with the people that are responsible for reviewing them, daily... Ask several people here in the forums that I have asked specific targeted additional feed back from, because of issues posted.

They are very much aware, of just about everything that is posted here in the forums.

And before anyone asks.... no, they are not going to provide us with their priority critieria, list of known issues, or when/what they are going to be working on next.

Earl Bonovich

03-04-08, 03:39 PM

I will give one more, the audible signal meters. We know not whether they even consider this a problem.

Yes... they know about it...

But since it only truely is critical to the installation process... and the vast majority of installers don't use the box audio, it is not very high on the list of things to fix... if it ever will be fixed.

(considering you can still get audio on it, if you non-DD, and other audio output options)

cbaker

03-04-08, 03:39 PM

I liked the way the known issues in cbaker's thread generally maintained the same headings and descriptions. If someone (SV) wanted to maintain it, then what about a closed thread that cannot get muttered up with posts and inconsistencies. Then a running thread or multiple threads could be used as proving grounds for what gets added or taken down. This could cut down on the PM's to said maintenance person. And if it gets added it is in the same ready to read format as the rest. This person would have to be granted mod or have a mod add/remove them when deemed time.

Why would it have to be one person. Several people could be "authorized" make the "issue" posts (keeping the format) and generate a "comment" post for that issue. Then anyone could respond to the "comments" post however they wanted.

FYI - A "Long Term Bugs / Issues for the XXX/XXX" sticky could be the index to the "issue" posts.

Stuart Sweet

03-04-08, 03:40 PM

If I may chime in on one more thing, I don't think that there's a lot to be gained by harping on how easy or hard it would be to fix a particular issue. First of all there is no way that you're going to know that with any certainty. Second of all, I don't see anything to be gained by implying that the person who allocates resources isn't doing his job.

If you're all going to do this -- and I hope that you do, because I think it would be great if you all found a way to make this work -- I'd like to suggest that it be completely non-judgmental. It's ok to say that a particular issue requires a reboot to fix or has no fix, but it's not ok to say that a particular issue merits fixing before another issue.

Perhaps you might wish to look at your list as a knowledgebase, a tool for users to identify known issues and resolve them, rather than a pick list for the development team.

armophob

03-04-08, 03:42 PM

Why would it have to be one person. Several people could be "authorized" make the "issue" posts (keeping the format) and generate a "comment" post for that issue. Then anyone could respond to the "comments" post however they wanted.

FYI - A "Long Term Bugs / Issues for the XXX/XXX" sticky could be the index to the "issue" posts.

More the better, I just think the death of any of these is the long threads of random post entries. As long as the running thread has very limited access.

houskamp

03-04-08, 03:42 PM

NO WAY!!!
That 100% defeats my purpose.
Issue is an issue until it's fixed.

The "last known affected version number" will be listed inside Post #1 of the thread.

If there's 50 threads on the exact same issue it...:
1) pushes every thread further and further down the pages.
2) makes everyone stop looking through the special forum since there's 50 threads for each of the 100 bugs .... which in my math is 500 threads!!! Keep it at JUST the 100 issues and nothing more.

Now if a bug DOES get fixed for all models, then it gets closed.

If that same fixed bug reappears down the road, THEN you start a new thread AND LINK TO the old one to say "you brought this old fixed bug back in software 0x9999".
But an issue thread thats been reported once and the tread continues tends to get lost fast too.. the "I already posted/voted last month" idea is why it needs to be continualy refreshed so new counts can be made..

armophob

03-04-08, 03:44 PM

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 03:56 PM

If the main CE forum is so filled with sticky's that the bug list can't be sticky'd (I consider a FAQ and should be sticky'd) and D* coming out with more and more models, why wouldn't there be multiple sub forums in the CE area, one for each model. (And no user posting main CE posting area.)

With more and more models for D* why not have sub forums based on model. Then you can sticky things like the weekly CE issues, long term bug list, key polls, etc. without issue. It would also allow posts for just that model.
Unfortunately that would further segregate the CE Team.
It would force the need to create 17 threads in 17 subforums, for one common flaw.

The vision I have would UNIFY the CE Team AND CONDENSE the information that's important to each individual.

That's a Win-Win situation.

Now what MIGHT accomplish what you seek AND what the moderators seek, would be a seperate subforum for, LOL, just the "17 Receiver Issues Threads", where members can post in the threads, but not have permission to start new threads.

This would get rid of the stickies real quick.
Just leave them in that Announcements forum and rename the forum.
Lock threads that are "upcoming".
Unlock threads when they get released.
Move old issues thread to main CE forum when it's outdated by new CE.

But I suppose that's a different topic, ehh.

cbaker

03-04-08, 03:56 PM

Yes... they know about it...

But since it only truely is critical to the installation process... and the vast majority of installers don't use the box audio, it is not very high on the list of things to fix... if it ever will be fixed.

(considering you can still get audio on it, if you non-DD, and other audio output options)

Yet if you are not an installer and want to tweek you dish (and probably don't have a signal meter) then probably more useful. So it doesn't work yet the option is still there as a choice .... a bit off topic ...

Earl: Yes, I do feel in some situations where they don't fix simple items (like inconsistent wording) for 5+ months that lack of results does mean they don't know about it or don't care. Why would I think otherwise?

Again, feedback still is valuable. There has to be something between no feedback and not giving out timelines/priorities/etc.

Drew2k

03-04-08, 04:01 PM

:backtotop: - The issue is how to organize users' bug reports, not specific issues!

Finally read through this, so I'll add my 2¢ to the discussion ...

We have a proven method in the CE forum that is known to work to bring DIRECTV's attention to bugs for each model for each release. What we also have is a chorus of seemingly random responses when a bug is encountered, which I'm sure makes it difficult for DIRECTV to filter through. However, they do.

My concern about having dedicated threads for each issue is this: Will the wording of the thread title be sufficient to allow a user to find their specific issue, so they know which thread to post in?

Or will they have to read the first post in each thread to get an idea of what the thread is about?

What if there are 2 or more threads for similar issues?

With the number of users here, this will not be a simple matter.

My bottom line is this: I have confidence that the bugs I report in CE issues threads and in NR issues threads are reviewed by DIRECTV, and I don't see how reporting them in a different format in any way alters DIRECTV's response to the issues I report.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 04:02 PM

But an issue thread thats been reported once and the tread continues tends to get lost fast too.. the "I already posted/voted last month" idea is why it needs to be continualy refreshed so new counts can be made..
There would be NO POLLS ALLOWED in my envisioned forum.
I would highly recommend comments like....

"I still get same bug in 0x9999"

That's as quick and simple as it gets.
And it provides the info we need.
The bug originator (and/or mod) just has to "tally up the posts" for this CE.

cbaker

03-04-08, 04:10 PM

Unfortunately that would further segregate the CE Team.
It would force the need to create 17 threads in 17 subforums, for one common flaw.

The vision I have would UNIFY the CE Team AND CONDENSE the information that's important to each individual.

That's a Win-Win situation.

Now what MIGHT accomplish what you seek AND what the moderators seek, would be a seperate subforum for, LOL, just the "17 Receiver Issues Threads", where members can post in the threads, but not have permission to start new threads.

This would get rid of the stickies real quick.
Just leave them in that Announcements forum and rename the forum.
Lock threads that are "upcoming".
Unlock threads when they get released.
Move old issues thread to main CE forum when it's outdated by new CE.

But I suppose that's a different topic, ehh.

I do understand your point but not sure I agree... thinking out loud...

I don't know that you would need 17 sub-forums. I don't know enough about the software development for each hardware model, but based on version numbers I see in the CE annoucements, it seems that all the HR20/21 models share the same software version (developement is same/similar and complied for the hardware is my assumption). Therefore, any issue on one would could be seen on others, and therefore could be lumped into a sub-forum. I assume other hardware is similar. Maybe it would be closer to 4-6 forums.

And yes, I do think you would need 4-6 different postings if something was seen across all HW platforms (not sure I have seen that) since I track (and would suggest it) software version that it was discovered in and lasted tested on. And if the hardware doesn't share software versions, it would require a seperate post.

armophob

03-04-08, 04:14 PM

We have a proven method in the CE forum that is known to work to bring DIRECTV's attention to bugs for each model for each release. What we also have is a chorus of seemingly random responses when a bug is encountered, which I'm sure makes it difficult for DIRECTV to filter through. However, they do.

My concern about having dedicated threads for each issue is this: Will the wording of the thread title be sufficient to allow a user to find their specific issue, so they know which thread to post in?

I think to get back to the OP's original idea and to what frustrates me is that we are to repost in the issue thread the exact same issue or bug again and again. And to the non-CE or even CE user who needs to know that this is something that is well known, and is or is not being addressed in the near future, should be easy to find out before posting a "stupid question".

Stuart Sweet

03-04-08, 04:14 PM

The DBSTalk.com chatroom opens at 7PM ET, that's not that much time from now...

armophob

03-04-08, 04:17 PM

If nothing else maybe a known bug list that can be posted right away on the issues thread that covers the oldies but goodies. The OP of the post can knock them off if they were actually addressed?

Drew2k

03-04-08, 04:18 PM

I think to get back to the OP's original idea and to what frustrates me is that we are to repost in the issue thread the exact same issue or bug again and again. And to the non-CE or even CE user who needs to know that this is something that is well known, and is or is not being addressed in the near future, should be easy to find out before posting a "stupid question".I never worry about 'stupid questions' ... I ask enough of them at work and elsewhere. :)

But I understand what you're saying, as I've been doing it myself, posting release after relase a certain issue with ARSLs. I think if the community is just looking for a "me too" approach to bug reports, then dedicated threads are the way to go, but I still think the current method works, too. Just me I guess ...

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 04:26 PM

:backtotop: - The issue is how to organize users' bug reports, not specific issues!
Thank You Drew!!

My concern about having dedicated threads for each issue is this: Will the wording of the thread title be sufficient to allow a user to find their specific issue, so they know which thread to post in?
That would be listed in the guidelines for thread creation.
Title MUST BRIEFLY describe the issue VERY WELL ... MANDATORY!!!

If the poster doesn't, then a mod will have to fix that.
Or the poster can delete it and start over again after some coaching.

What if there are 2 or more threads for similar issues?
Merge Threads.

Or link the poster to the older thread and kindly ask him to delete his thread, but then admin's would need to set one custom permission in AdminCP in just this forum so the thread starter's can delete their own threads.

The total number of threads MUST be kept low so there aren't a ton of threads to sort through.

With the number of users here, this will not be a simple matter.
Like Tom is asking for, if the right team of people was put together, I have zero doubts that we couldn't manage it.

My bottom line is this: I have confidence that the bugs I report in CE issues threads and in NR issues threads are reviewed by DIRECTV, and I don't see how reporting them in a different format in any way alters DIRECTV's response to the issues I report.
I have faith in that too, actually.
What I DON'T have faith in is the members to educate themselves on what the bugs are, thus they won't test for them and/or won't know what to look for .... and like cbaker .... the original bug starter after months gets sick of being the only guy to keep reporting it .... and eventually stops reporting it .... and in some cases (depending on the nature of the bug), DirecTV might throw in something to TRY and fix it and BELIEVE they solved the bug .... when it still exists but no one is willing to report it anymore.

Drew2k

03-04-08, 04:29 PM

cbaker

03-04-08, 04:33 PM

:backtotop: - The issue is how to organize users' bug reports, not specific issues!

Finally read through this, so I'll add my 2¢ to the discussion ...

We have a proven method in the CE forum that is known to work to bring DIRECTV's attention to bugs for each model for each release. What we also have is a chorus of seemingly random responses when a bug is encountered, which I'm sure makes it difficult for DIRECTV to filter through. However, they do.

[SNIP]

My bottom line is this: I have confidence that the bugs I report in CE issues threads and in NR issues threads are reviewed by DIRECTV, and I don't see how reporting them in a different format in any way alters DIRECTV's response to the issues I report.

Taken with Earl's comments about D* knows about bugs when they are posted here the first time, then I am starting to agree with you.

If a bug was seen 5 months ago and reported, then there is no reason to report it every week in the CE, they already know about it, assigned their own priority, and asking CE'rs to test it every week is silly.

Some new CE will figure out soon enough that it is an old issue to be addressed if D* desires .... The more I think about it my (and any new) effort in making a bug list/thread/forum is probably a significant waste of time and effort. If drawing attention to outstanding, long term bugs/issues will in no way help get them addressed, I guess I don't see the point in the effort.

Supervolcano

03-04-08, 04:38 PM

SV - What I meant by "similar issues" is this:

Audio drop-out during trick-play
Audio drop-out when returning to live

Those are two distinct issues, but is Joe Public going to know which one to post in based on thread titles alone?
Yep, those are definately 2 seperate issues.
And while that does make for tricky wording of titles...
We have some pretty clever folks in here that are very good at condensing their words (unlike me).
:lol:
But another DEAD SET RULE of my vision would be YOU MUST READ the first post of the thread BEFORE POSTING your reply to thread.

Post #1 would be the maybe long winded version describing every aspect of the bug.

If there's a SIMILAR issue like your referring to, then state that in your Post #1 to clarify the difference between the bugs. Maybe even link to the other bug thread to make it easy on the users to see the differences.

Drewg5

03-04-08, 04:39 PM

Unification of bug reports/reporting is one of them :beatdeadhorse: type issues. This has been brought up in the past quite a few times. I know in the past some even offered to setup bugzilla or similar bug tracking data base. All have failed due to lack of support, and relying on 1 person to create maintain said data base.

Doing so would require more work than most put in at there own "real" jobs. The task is rather daunting.

houskamp

03-04-08, 04:46 PM

the big problem is how do we even know how they are doing on the bugs? did they fix 10%? 50%?.. just having a continued post doesn't show what they have succeeded in fixing..
That's why if you are still having a problem with a bug keep reporting it till it gets fixed (and if they do fix it report that too)
By the way I love that my music is working again :)

HDTVsportsfan

03-04-08, 06:01 PM

Some of us are in the chat room. Come on and join us for real time discussion.

dyker

03-05-08, 01:19 PM

I took the HR20-700:0x1FE Issues / Discussions Thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=119547&page=1) and just did a "count" of how many posts different issues had and came up with the following below. You can use it to benchmark which issues might have been reported the most.

Ignored: Complaints about interface changes such as to-do list or general complaints about stability.

Blank/Black/Empty/Gray Recording
Post #: 61, 80, 89, 123, 130, 152, 161, 169, 203, 212, 213, 215, 218, 224, 225, 227, 228, 231, 236, 238, 239, 245, 260

Audio Dropouts / Stuttering Audio
Post #: 124, 135, 154, 156, 173, 195, 199, 200, 201, 202, 205, 216, 220, 224, 252

Searching for Signal on satellite in 2 (or 1)
Post #: 46, 54, 115, 65, 120, 188, 214, 217, 224, 250, 259

Frozen image on live TV but audio was playing.
Post #: 118, 142, 144, 193, 204, 221, 228, 231, 252, 265

Unit does not respond to Remote Control but Picture and Sound Still work
Post #: 100, 111, 130, 108, 209, 223, 253, 255, 265

Guide or Menus Slower
Post #: 21, 117, 154, 161, 176, 204, 209, 240

Lip Sync
Post #: 111, 116, 113, 209, 228, 231

Screen Saver on at 1AM or for no reason
Post #: 138, 207, 219, 220, 259, 266

Hanging Banner when Changing Channels
Post #: 119, 148, 224

Can't get back to live TV after using instant replay
Post #: 175, 189, 193

Unit now Records two showings of same episode
Post #: 129, 143, 206

Caller ID Issues
Post #: 51, 262

Keep or Delete dialog Fails
Post #: 130, 191

pixelation, green blotches, display
Post #: 3, 224

Using guide filters causes the list to be unstable
Post #: 79

Could not clear the "Searching for satellite..." message
Post #: 92

Download of new software reformatted my drive
Post #: 96

recorded programs were starting at the end of the recording and the end timing was way off
Post #: 105

Incorrect Show name when Padding
Post #: 112

Trailing padding indicator is not visible in the Progress Bar for recorded programs.
Post #: 131

Jerky FF
Post #: 149

Mpeg4 Outages
Post #: 164

Closed Captioning
Post #: 176

Media share
Post #: 181