110 Problem with Tuner 2 Only?

[gmtussb]

I wanted help with a 110 problem. I recently moved my Slimline dish setup to another side of my house. No problems really. I am in Alabama.

I have an DVR HR20-100.

I have great signal strengths (95+) and equal strengths for BOTH Tuners on 99, 101, 103 and 119.

However, on 110, my Tuner 1 has a signal strength of 91 and the 3 active transponders are as follows #8 - 91, #10 - 91 #12 - 95. But when I go to Tuner 2the transponders change to #8 - 0, #10 - 51, #12 - 76.

Any ideas on such a drastic change for one satellite and only the second tuner?

I have not tried switching the cables between the tuners because the other satellites are so strong and so equal, I don't see how switching cables will tell me anything.

Thanks!

[K4SMX]

It was recently reported that this can be corrected by adding a 3' patch cord (requires a double-female "barrel" connector (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103459&cp=2032058.2032231.2032280&pg=2&allCount=314&fbn=Cable+type%2FCouplers&f=PAD%2FCable+Type%2FCouplers&fbc=1&parentPage=family)) between the receiver and the BBC. There apparently is an electrical impedance mismatch which causes the tuner to lose signal strength. The origin of this issue is still a mystery, since the tuner works fine on 110 after reboot until you first tune a 103 channel either directly or through the View Signal Strength menu option. It also works fine you will find with no BBC attached. The original poster (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1485192&postcount=60) (V'ger) on this fix reported that the patch cord length was critical.

Please see this thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=116431&page=7&highlight=Tired).

[mjones73]

I know what I'm doing tonight when I go home, I have this problem with my HR20-100 also.

[gmtussb]

K4SMX,

Thank you so much for your reply! I don't think I would have found that thread with my own searching. I have read the thread.

I will try that tonight!

Gordon

[joe diamond]

Cool!,
A jumper will resolve the BBC problem. I had done some of the other things;
switch the cables, switch the BBCs, check for actual channel loss, consider changing the box, multiswitch cable or fittings.

Another tool on the bag. No equipment is perfect but if you know about the defects you can cope.

Good one!

Joe

[K4SMX]

K4SMX,

Thank you so much for your reply! I don't think I would have found that thread with my own searching. I have read the thread.

I will try that tonight!

Gordon
Don't feel bad, that discussion was not the topic of that thread. You should thank anleva.

[gmtussb]

OK, I tried the fix for Tuner 2. I made up a coax cable with good fittings at 3 feet long and put it between the receiver and the BBC.

It made better numbers, but not perfect.

Before the fix: tp #8 - 0, #10 - 51, # 12 - 76.

After the fix: tp #8 - 49, #10 - 67, # 12 - 80.

When that was not too impressive I tried a 2 foot cable and tha 4 foot cable. With those the numbers were about the same.

My local authorized DirecTV installer is coming tomorrow morning. I will check with him and see if they have solved this problem and I will report to the forum tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.

[K4SMX]

OK, I tried the fix for Tuner 2. I made up a coax cable with good fittings at 3 feet long and put it between the receiver and the BBC.

It made better numbers, but not perfect.......

.....My local authorized DirecTV installer is coming tomorrow morning. I will check with him and see if they have solved this problem and I will report to the forum tomorrow.

Interesting, especially on tp 8 vs. 10 & 12. It may not be perfect, but it's almost at least within "working range."
It does make a difference.

How about now swapping around some different BBC's, including the one on tuner 1. Maybe the installer might have a couple of more. I noticed quite a variation myself, even though they all read pretty much the same, somewhere in the 90's, when hooked to a -700.

[V'ger]

OK, I tried the fix for Tuner 2. I made up a coax cable with good fittings at 3 feet long and put it between the receiver and the BBC.

It made better numbers, but not perfect.

Before the fix: tp #8 - 0, #10 - 51, # 12 - 76.

After the fix: tp #8 - 49, #10 - 67, # 12 - 80.

When that was not too impressive I tried a 2 foot cable and tha 4 foot cable. With those the numbers were about the same.

My local authorized DirecTV installer is coming tomorrow morning. I will check with him and see if they have solved this problem and I will report to the forum tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.

I will admit that TP#8 is slightly lower for me, too. I'm in the middle of a big snowstorm, so the readings are a little lower than normal, but I am seeing 79, 82, and 83 on the three TPs on Tuner 2. In clear weather, TP8 will stay in the mid-80s while 10 and 12 can run up to 92. Tuner 1 is currently showing 86, 87, 87 and is always higher than Tuner 2.

If you have a grey colored BBC, you may want to check where the coax goes into the body of the BBC and look/feel on the coax for a flattened area. DirecTv shipped the grey BBCs in a box with the coax bent over sharply. If you can feel a flat spot, you can use pressure on the widest area of the coax to try to make it round again. A crushed coax can upset the impeadance at that point and cause addiitonal signal disruptions.

Finally. my HR20-100 is still sensitive on the placement of the three foot extension coax. It needs to have room coming out of the HR20 and not bend very sharply. In other words, try to run it as straight as possible.

[K4SMX]

.....Finally. my HR20-100 is still sensitive on the placement of the three foot extension coax. It needs to have room coming out of the HR20 and not bend very sharply. In other words, try to run it as straight as possible.
Very strange! Does this mean, for example, that if you put both tuners for 110, tp 8 on the screen using the Signal Meters, and you then move the 3' cable around, you can see the signal strength varying on tuner 2? This would mean there's RF flowing on the coax shield. What happens if you move the line around on the dish side of the BBC while holding the BBC stable? Does the presence of your hand make a difference?

[V'ger]

Very strange! Does this mean, for example, that if you put both tuners for 110, tp 8 on the screen using the Signal Meters, and you then move the 3' cable around, you can see the signal strength varying on tuner 2? This would mean there's RF flowing on the coax shield. What happens if you move the line around on the dish side of the BBC while holding the BBC stable? Does the presence of your hand make a difference?


Yes, It has been a while, but if I go into the signal strength, get the reading, then exit, and then move the cable and go back back to signal strength, I often, but not always, can see up to a 20 point change in TP#8. In general, the gentler the curve of the cable coming out the more stable the signal.

Best I could tell, the sensitivity was only at the HR20 F connector. Beyond the BBC towards the disk doesn't affect it. I recently moved my AV setup around and now have curled up in 1 foot diameter, the cables going to the dish and it hasn't affected the readings that I can tell.

[K4SMX]

You should be able to watch the effects of moving the cable around "live" without switching back and forth if you use the Signal Meters under Menu button > Parental, Fav's, & Setup >System Setup > Satellite and Antenna > View Signal Strength > Signal Meters, like you would if you were aligning a dish. It defaults to the 101 satellite, so you'll need to < arrow over to the 110.

[gmtussb]

My local installers came today and I asked them about the problem with tuner 2 on 110. They had no idea about it and had nothing to offer. I showed them the 3foot extension "fix" as discussed on this forum and they were impressed!

I also tried abother thing today. On another thread somewhere, a member posted something about the fact that if you have very strong signals on 119 it can actually disrupt 110. He talked about blocking a portion of the 110 lnb. IO have 100% signal on 119 for both tuner 1 and tuner 2. I wish I could give him credit for this idea, but I can't remember who it was and I can't find the post tonight, sorry. I hope he reads this and gives himself the credit by posting himself.

Anyway, I took out my 3 foot extension so I was going straight through the BBC's into the receiver, the standard hookup. Then I went outside and covered 1/2 of the 119 lnb with tin foil. It actually worked! The signals on 110 tuner 2 went up about as much as they did when I did the 3 foot extension test. It did only affected the signal strength from 119 a little bit. Very weird?!

I will do addtional tests this weekend and post real numbers.

Thanks again for all of the input.

[K4SMX]

.....Then I went outside and covered 1/2 of the 119 lnb with tin foil. It actually worked! The signals on 110 tuner 2 went up about as much as they did when I did the 3 foot extension test. It did only affected the signal strength from 119 a little bit. Very weird?!.....
Do you think it make any difference which 180 degrees of the LNB is covered? Top half, right side, etc.

[gmtussb]

For my first test I randomly put the tinfoil over the vertical Eastern half of the lnb. That was just the easiest way to do it for the first test.

I do not think it should make a difference which part of the surface you cover because the signal beams should bounce off the dish and be directed toward the lnb at 90 degrees; correct?

[bcurley]

For my first test I randomly put the tinfoil over the vertical Eastern half of the lnb. That was just the easiest way to do it for the first test.

I do not think it should make a difference which part of the surface you cover because the signal beams should bounce off the dish and be directed toward the lnb at 90 degrees; correct?

Wow....This actually did the trick.. Still have solid signal on 119 and now into the 80's and low 90's on 110 tuner 2....Question...I use an Accutrac III and follow the alignment procedures. However yesterday decided to fine tune the 103 and 110 using HR20-100 signal meters (both tuners)....Any opinions on this method?

[gmtussb]

bcurley,

I wish I had a real meter to tune things at the dish, but I do not so I have to rely on the tuner meters. I think the tuner meters are fine as long as you give them enough time to change with your adjustments. They have a little lag time.

[bcurley]

bcurley,

I wish I had a real meter to tune things at the dish, but I do not so I have to rely on the tuner meters. I think the tuner meters are fine as long as you give them enough time to change with your adjustments. They have a little lag time.

I actuall have the dish mounted off my back patio and walk back and forth, about 20 feet. This gives the meters plenty of time to settle. It is interesting at how much a tenth of a turn on elevation or azmuth can change the readings....

Bob

[statik]

I think I made a new discovery with the HR20-100 and tuner2 on 110 problem.
right now I have no cable connected to tuner2.
when checking signal levels on all sats, obviously it reads zero on tuner 2. high 90s on tuner1.

now when i go to 110 trans #8 it shows +/-95 on tuner1 and +/-48 on tuner2. NOTHING is connected to tuner2.
maybe there is some short inside hr20-100s?? I know it sounds crazy, but I have rebooted and tried it several times and it still shows a fluctuating signal on tuner2 with NO cable connected.


video for proof: http://storage.likwidskateboards.com/HR20-100.wmv (5.7 megs)

edit: I am also getting signals in the 40s on a few transponders on 103c on tuner2.

[K4SMX]

I think what you're seeing is pretty common on all HR's. I don't know what it means, if anything, or exactly what causes it.

[statik]

maybe it has to do with the SWM feature

[blc]

maybe it has to do with the SWM feature

I think you may be correct. I noticed the phantom signals also a couple of months ago when I was trouble shooting for the 110 tuner 2 problem on my receivers. It is odd that signals come through with no cable attached to one of the tuners. I posted sometime back then that I thought this 110 tuner 2 issue may have started when the SWM software feature was downloaded onto the recievers. I do not know if anyone experienced the issue before that time. Also near that time, the HD Extra Pack was made available, and some have thought that maybe some authorization software for that package caused the 110 tuner 2 issue. I think the SWM software is more likely the culprit because after a reboot all is well with the 110 tuner 2 readings. But after going to the 103 sat and back to the 110, tuner 2 drops considerably. However, if after going to the 103 sat, Tuner 1 hits the 110 first before tuner 2, the tuner 2 drop will not be as significant. So there is some type of positive interaction from tuner 1 hitting the 110 (after the 103) before tuner 2 hits the 110. This is true in my case at least for both Hr20-100 receivers. The signals are generally 10-12 points better on my 110 tuner 2 readings if tuner 1 hits the 110 (after the reboot and going to 103) before I check the signals for tuner 2.

I have not had a chance to try the 3-foot fix yet because I have not been able to go get the required cable ends this weekend. I will post the result of the fix when I am able to try it. Also interesting is the fact that one poster discovered that covering part of the 119 LNB helps boost the 110 signal. Someone with a higher pay grade than mine will have to explain what may be causing the boost for the 110 tuner 2 by partially covering the 119 LNB.

[joe diamond]

A generalization:

Verify the mast is plumb....work slowly.....mark with a pencil all settings before doing anything.

AND the 119 thing with the foil is interesting but should give the same result tuning west a little. Right?

Joe

[K4SMX]

.....I posted sometime back then that I thought this 110 tuner 2 issue may have started when the SWM software feature was downloaded onto the recievers. I do not know if anyone experienced the issue before that time......
That seems like a very good possibility. It could be coincidental. I've noticed the "phantom signals" as well....

[Rabushka]

I don't think this issue has anything to do with the SWM. I don't have one and my readings on the 110 are low on tuner 2. After trying the 3 foot coax and replacing the BBC, my signal jumps into the 90s but goes back down after a few minutes. I wonder what is causing it to drop? All the connections are good and tight.

[K4SMX]

I believe it has to do with the SWM-enabling software, not the presence of the SWM itself.....

[statik]

I believe it has to do with the SWM-enabling software, not the presence of the SWM itself.....

right, I do NOT have an actual SWM physical setup.

[Rabushka]

Aftter changing the BBC and adding a 6 ft cable failed to improve tuner 2 on my HR20 100, I disconnected tuner 2 and rebooted. After several attempts, I was still missing several channels. Looking at the signal meters, it occurred to me that the receiver was acting as if both tuners were still connected. High signal on tuner 2, low on tuner 1. I checked the back of the receiver and discovered that I had disconnected tuner 1. Not only that but I had replaced the BBC and cable on tuner 1 as well in an attempt to improve Tuner 2 on SAt 110. ( I had assumed that the upper jack was tuner 1) Stupid me! So, I started over and replaced the BBC and cable on tuner 2 and now all is well. Strong and equal signals on both tuners on 110. So the fix does work!

My question now is what happens if I install a SWM? Once I do this, I can't correct for an impedance mismatch on tuner 2. Has anyone had this experience?

[K4SMX]

.....My question now is what happens if I install a SWM? Once I do this, I can't correct for an impedance mismatch on tuner 2. Has anyone had this experience?
I believe it has to do with the SWM-enabling software, not the presence of the SWM itself.....
In that case, you'd be using SWM channels, not the IF satellite signals from the LNB.