My 3 questions- 148 and 157 west + small DMAs

[alebowgm]

Hey all,

Three questions that have been on my mind...

Since it looks as if E3 is going to be moving in the near future, and with Ciel and others coming to life soon, I was wondering what the current status of 157 west is. I know E4 was there before it moved to 77w for what is effectivly going to be Dish Network Mexico/lower Conus coverage, but who currently owns the license to 157w and is there a possiiblity we will see a shuffle of E3, or some other satellites to go back out there?

Also, 148west. We all know that E1 and E2 are near the end of life, and it is apparent that Dish Network has not done a lot with the bandwith that is over there, except for a lot of test channels and small DMA's. My question, what are the possibilites of Dish creating a 'western arc' similar to the 'eastern arc' that E12 is going to create.

Finally, looking over in the EKB, it appears as if there is still a good chunk of DMAs that do not have locals. I understand they represent a very small number of households, but with all the shuffling, why isn't Dish trying to beat DirecTV and launching a campaign to say they have 100% DMA penatration? With so many of those DMAs only having 1 or 2 affiliates, such as (first good example from the EKB) Alpena, MI which only has a PBS and a CBS station...

[James Long]

The FCC currently owns 157° ... the three licenses DISH had there were abandoned when E4 was moved away. The other 29 transponder licenses were bought at auction but the auction was canceled. (Rainbow DBS bought all transponders on 166° and 175° in that same canceled auction).

E3 isn't likely to go that far. It was designed for 61.5° ... the footprint is too odd for a west coast slot.

We've been talking about having a service for the west coast on 148° (perhaps in tandem with 157°) on this forum for many years. Yes, I still believe there is a possibility that a full service AK/HI (plus the western US) service will be put in place. Technology has caught up ... with MPEG4 DISH should not need two slots to provide good service (including west coast time feeds?).

DISH does need to put a better satellite there ... E1 and E2 are holding up well, but better AK and HI service is a must.

[rbgator95]

We've been talking about having a service for the west coast on 148° (perhaps in tandem with 157°) on this forum for many years. Yes, I still believe there is a possibility that a full service AK/HI (plus the western US) service will be put in place. Technology has caught up ... with MPEG4 DISH should not need two slots to provide good service (including west coast time feeds?).

DISH does need to put a better satellite there ... E1 and E2 are holding up well, but better AK and HI service is a must.

Mr. Long-

Just curious why the current satellite(s) at 148 is/are not visible for Hawaii? Is it just because the footprint is aimed only towards CONUS latitudes? Seems that if DISH had Hawaii service sourced at 148 it would free up spotbeams at 110, and could also allow for use of DISH 300 antennas (in lieu of 30 inch) on the islands...

Thanks

[rocatman]

Mr. Long-

Just curious why the current satellite(s) at 148 is/are not visible for Hawaii? Is it just because the footprint is aimed only towards CONUS latitudes? Seems that if DISH had Hawaii service sourced at 148 it would free up spotbeams at 110, and could also allow for use of DISH 300 antennas (in lieu of 30 inch) on the islands...

Thanks

I believe that is the case, the 148 W satellites are aimed at CONUS and not Hawaii. The two satellites at 148 W, E-1 and E-2 were originally designed for use at 119 W I believe so Dish would need to design a satellite specifically with beams aimed at Hawaii. In regards to freeing up spotbeams at 110, the spotbeams for Hawaii from the satellite at 110 W i.e., E-10 was specifically designed for Hawaii and not moveable and therefore not useable elsewhere.

[James Long]

You are correct sir!

Back in the day that E1 and E2 were designed DBS companies expected to launch two sets of satellites ... one set for the east and one set for the west. The FCC initially allotted the same number of transponders "east" (61.5° to 119°) and "west" (148° to 175°). Most providers abandoned their "west" transponders since their "east" locations at 101° to 119° can cover the US fairly well.

DISH designed E1 and E2 for 119° back in that environment. Eventually a better satellite arrived there and DISH moved E1 and E2 to 148° to preserve their licenses and provide additional services.

DISH's DBS bandwidth is probably their best asset.

[rbgator95]

Didn't realize the constraints for spot beam usage on 110. However the possibility of Hawaii viewers using more traditional DISH antennas could/would/should improve if more dedicated service becomes available at 148.

In the thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=122097 I'm looking for anyone with knowledge on "transplanting" a D500 twin LNB (DP Plus) to a larger antenna so as to maintain the advantages of DP Plus. Thanks.

[JohnH]

Current speculation is that 148/129 would be the Western Arc componemts. A DiSH 1000 would likely work well for that.

EchoStar 3 may go to 77 West to bolster the EchoStar 4 delivery to Mexico or provide some additional Eastern Arc services. Some may notice that 77w shows up in their point dish choices now.

[James Long]

Hawaii may have a problem with using a D1000 for 19° orbital spacing. As one gets closer to the equator the satellites appear further apart to the dish. Even 9° orbital spacing gets interesting. Here are calculations for the split covered by a D1000 and the split in Hawaii.

Marquette, MI: 20.9 az 10.8 el
to 110° = 209.8 az 32.1 el
to 129° = 230.7 az 22.9 el

San Antonio, TX: 27.7 az 11.2 el
to 110° = 202.5 az 53.4 el
to 129° = 230.2 az 42.2 el

Honolulu, HI: 31.1 az 13.7 el
to 129° = 123.4 az 49.0 el
to 148° = 154.5 az 62.7 el

Anchorage, AK: 21.3 az 2.1 el
to 129° = 156.5 az 18.5 el
to 148° = 177.8 az 20.6 el

It is probably a bit far outside of the specs of a D1000 to see 129° and 148° ... That doesn't mean that there won't be a Hawaiian version of the dish (just take one of the LNBs out of the 1000.2 LNB case and respace the other two accordingly) but I don't expect ConUS setups to work there. In Alaska the satellites might be too close ... perhaps a D500 would work there?

The spacing should be fine for the western ConUS ... but AK and HI customers could still be improvising.

(Calculations courtesy of Sadoun (http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Satellite-Heading-Calculator.htm) since the point dish screen does not include numbers for 129°.)

[phrelin]

This 129°/148° combination for "western ConUS" presumably would include me since I'm less than 20 miles from the Pacific Ocean. So I went outside and I'm not sure I can get 148° through the trees (redwoods). Maybe. But I currently have dishes in two locations as it is and likely would need a third unless the scheme eliminates a need for both 110° and 119°. Hypothetically, of course, who would foot the bill for the dish realignments and installations?

[James Long]

The new eastern and western services should replace the normal dishes. There are (of course) no guarantees of that since so far the plan has not been announced. Just some good old fashioned guesswork. (At least this year, it is within the realm of the possible.)

[alebowgm]

EchoStar 3 may go to 77 West to bolster the EchoStar 4 delivery to Mexico or provide some additional Eastern Arc services. Some may notice that 77w shows up in their point dish choices now.

John, maybe I missed it, BUT I thought that was not necessairly allowed to use 4.5 degree spacing. If that is the case, how are they going to be adding to the Eastern arc? I ask because I wonder what a guestiamte of CONUS coverage of E3 from 77west would be as long as it was pointed at CONUS (unlike E4 which is pointed at Mexico and has the carry over falling into CONUS)... Maybe James can make a JPEG to give us an idea?

[James Long]

E3 was designed for 61.5°. It should do fine if E* moves it to 77° ... about as well as satellites designed for 110° work at 119°.

Pros and cons: 77° was not considered when E3 was built - so E3 could not have been designed specifically to work there. But E3 has a pretty lose pattern so I don't expect an issue with covering Florida, Maine or Southern Texas (the bits that stick out the most from ConUS).

It is such a short move that I don't believe an illustration is needed. The issue I see is just how many transponders remain. E3 is failing. Most of the active transponders have no backup. If it is used at 77° I expect that it will have some of the remaining transponders left unused so if a transponder fails E* can move the content quickly to another transponder without losing the content.

IIRC: E* is planning on testing E12 at 55.5 ... which will include some testing of the short spacing.

[alebowgm]

Even if that is the case, will Dish get FCC permission to use 4.5 degree spacing? To me, I would think 77 and 86.5 would make a lot of sense for CONUS since 72.5 is DirecTV, 82 and 91 is Expressvu. Don't see how it would affect subs. Where as, 114.5 would probably be more dangerous.

Also, any word on those smaller DMAs? I am so surprised that those DMAs that only have 1 or 2 local stations that Dish would have to uplink haven't been done-so already (even, gasp, if it were to 105 or 121)...