mono / stereo [Archive]

rusty shackleford

02-08-03, 06:17 PM

I've read quite a bit about the mono "muzak" problem here. I don't know for certain, but I've seen the jukeboxes used for the music channels, and they ALL have stereo outputs. I have a hard time believing that it would be muzaks choice to broadcast half the channels in stereo and half of them in mono. Charlie wouldn't have it. That's why I believe the mono channels are a satellite bandwith issue, and are there because E* would rather use that extra bandwith on more video channels, and increase profits by pre-empting the commercials of said video channels with thier own cheesy 3rd rate ad's. (ener-X, bloussant, di-tech)

Call me crazy, but I believe if E* wanted us to have ALL stereo music channels, we've have had them a long time ago. I've been a subscriber for over 6 years. I still have one of the original recievers, and I would LOVE to see some artist and song title info on the screen. Maybe some day I'll quit drinkin' and buy one of those new recievers . . . naaahh.

ROCK ON Dish CD!!!!!

Steve Mehs

02-08-03, 06:33 PM

The mono Muzak channels were not meant for Dish Network subscribers home use, but rather for commercial use. When your in a department store setting, and have music playing over the PA you want mono (since the loudspeakers are monaural, in most cases). With Stereo you'd be losing half the sound, and with some types of music where the vocals are on one channel and instruments are on another it would sound terrible. The 19 mono Muzaks in AT150 were filler, there are still another 10 or so, that are not available to normal subscribers.

rusty shackleford

02-08-03, 07:18 PM

Steve, you da man!

...but you don't have to go through technical training to know that a simple "Y" connector would solve the stereo problem where a mono application is required. So, in light of this, muzak wouldn't need the original signal to be in mono, especially when they have 30 others going out in stereo. It just dosen't add up.

My question is, why beam up 19 in mono, and the rest up in stereo? Does muzak make those decisions for you?

Or are you saying that E* controls and maintains the stereo systems on premise, but has no control over the monos which are kept and controlled separately in seattle by muzak?

Don't get me wrong, I love the service, but I hate the cheesy commercials interrupting my sports ticker on ESPN News. You KNOW that's what's happening when that ticker at the bottom of the screen goes away. Call me paranoid, but believe my original post isn't far off the mark on this.

By the way, I am also a BIG Metallica fan. I get my fix with the power rock 961. GREAT F***IN' CHANNEL!

shilton

02-08-03, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Steve Mehs
The mono Muzak channels were not meant for Dish Network subscribers home use, but rather for commercial use. When your in a department store setting, and have music playing over the PA you want mono (since the loudspeakers are monaural, in most cases). With Stereo you'd be losing half the sound, and with some types of music where the vocals are on one channel and instruments are on another it would sound terrible. The 19 mono Muzaks in AT150 were filler, there are still another 10 or so, that are not available to normal subscribers.
Steve,
Hate to contradict you but I remember seeing on a Charlie Chat one time a while ago when a customer phoned in and asked if the mono channels would ever be available in Stereo and Charlie said NO because that would require more space on the satellites and we don't want to give that up when we have other channels people want added and we have other local markets we want to enter, etc...

He made it clear that this was JUST a space issue so I don't think your theory flies...Besides, Muzak says that ALL of their offerings are available to businesses in rich full stereo sound.

dishrich

02-08-03, 10:03 PM

rusty (& the rest) - the answer to your question is VERY easy. The reason why those 19 channels (AND 5 more that are "hidden" from residential customers) are in MONO is because MUZAK SENDS THEM TO E* in MONO!

All those mono channels do NOT originate from E* from CD jukeboxes - they are downlinked from Ku band FM2 carriers that Muzak uses to send those to not only E*, but direct to other clients, & even radio stations that put some out over SCA FM carriers. I KNOW this for a fact because a friend of mine works at a local radio station as an engineer, & he has showed me the FM2 receivers that pull these signals down.

And like Steve says, I doubt that Muzak is going to all of a sudden make THOSE mono channels stereo anytime soon, since the PRIMARY purpose of them is for "backround music" applications.

02-08-03, 10:28 PM

The softwaqre IS at the uplink center, it does NOT get fed to dish via satellite. Bet on it. (it's mono because it was for commercial use)

peters

02-08-03, 11:30 PM

At my work we use Muzak for the music on hold.
We pay Muzak for the service, but it is all Dish Network stuff.

We get several music channels that are not available to "Home" users as Steve noted above.
It doesn't get any video channels, just Muzak.

I have tried to turn one of the boxes off for an extended amount of time to see if it would take a software download, but it doesn't seem to.

It also doesn't have the name of the songs on the display like my 301/501 do.

TNGTony

02-09-03, 01:11 AM

Another thing that is being missed here is that the 23 mono channels (19 AT150 + 4 Dish Latino) we residential subcribers see and the additional 7 muzak channels available only to businesses have highly compressed dynamic range. (www.dishchannelchart.com) This is to keep an even volume level in the stores and businesses that use the $39.99 a month Muzak business service.

The reason the channels are in mono is because that is the way Muzak wants them. Mono and with very limited dynamic range. The reason Muzak wants them this way is because that is the way their customers want it.

See ya
Tony

Steve Mehs

02-09-03, 09:25 AM

It doesn't get any video channels, just Muzak.

IIRC, the same receiver cannot be subscribed to Dish Network programming and the commercial Muzak channels.

As many have said above, this is not a bandwidth problem, but it's the way Muzak wants their channels streamed. I do remember that Charlie Chat when Charlie said the mono channels would never be stereo because of bandwidth, but like many other times I believe he was mistaken. He also said it would be a waste since many of the mono channels have similar channels in 'CD' quality.

By the way, I am also a BIG Metallica fan. I get my fix with the power rock 961. GREAT F***IN' CHANNEL!

Wanna hear some great quality Metallica? If you have a Dolby Digital system and don't already have it, get the Black Album on DVD-A. It blows the sound quality of Power Rock away. BTW- I had Power Rock on last night and not too long before you posted the first post Sad But True was being played. Coincidence or what? :)

rusty shackleford

02-09-03, 09:37 AM

Tony, if what you say is true, then why would muzak comprimise it's "mono philosophy" of delivery by providing 31 stereo channels? For no other reason than to please E*? If muzak were truly in control of the original signal (as you say), then ALL the music channels would be in mono.

Shilton (above) hit it right on the head. Please refer to Charlies own words.

Mike123abc

02-09-03, 09:46 AM

As someone who uses muzak in 2 locations:

You have speakers scattered around the ceiling, they are in mono because with a large ceiling there is no way to separate/direct the sound for it to be in stereo.

About 8 years ago they upgraded from FM broadcast (they used to have deals with local radio stations to broadcast from their towers) to satellite. I now have 3' antennas on my roofs (fixed band Ku I believe).

Musak charges you based on occupancy and number of speakers. Good thing it is in mono or you would be charged 2x for the stereo.

The accoustics they have to work with pretty much demands mono with compressed dynamic range. They are meant to be put in ceilings which means they point down to who knows what type of surface that of course is different in every location. Or they go over the phone which has about 6khz dynamic range (close to AM).

Steve Mehs

02-09-03, 10:00 AM

then why would muzak comprimise it's "mono philosophy" of delivery by providing 31 stereo channels? For no other reason than to please E*?

The 31 stereo channels are meant for Dish Network customers for home use and stereo would be appropriate. AFAIK, the commercial Muzak package does not include the CD channels, only the mono (Mike or Peters, could you confirm or deny?)

Mike123abc

02-09-03, 10:13 AM

I do not know if the CD ones are available. The way Muzak works is that the local muzak rep comes by, reviews your music needs and presents you with a proposal. I only have the mono services on my decoder. Seems to me that the music channel counter goes up to about to the mid 20s or so.

Now to answer the question that people ask: Why do you use Musak and pay money for music?

Well the main reason is because if you use music in a business you have to pay royalties to the song performers/writers/whoever else they want to charge for. Musak takes care of all that for you.

Richard King

02-09-03, 10:28 AM

I do remember that Charlie Chat when Charlie said the mono channels would never be stereo because of bandwidthActually, it just may be a bandwidth problem, since these channels started as exclusive Muzak services, I suspect THEY didn't want to pay for the extra bandwidth, not Echostar. Since Muzak doesn't need the bandwidth for the "intended" audience, they won't pay for the bandwidth.

rusty shackleford

02-09-03, 10:52 AM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the commercial Muzak package does not include the CD channels, only the mono
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To disprove the myth above, checkout the URL below.

http://muzak.com/

By my rough count, there are just about 31 E* stereo channels available to muzak customers.

Now, WHO dosen't want to pay for the extra bandwith?

(sad but true)

Darkman

02-09-03, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by shilton

Steve,
Hate to contradict you but I remember seeing on a Charlie Chat one time a while ago when a customer phoned in and asked if the mono channels would ever be available in Stereo and Charlie said NO because that would require more space on the satellites and we don't want to give that up when we have other channels people want added and we have other local markets we want to enter, etc...

He made it clear that this was JUST a space issue so I don't think your theory flies...Besides, Muzak says that ALL of their offerings are available to businesses in rich full stereo sound.

hehe - but with all the new satellites being launched, example E* 8. maybe they can spare some "space" for us in da future, and give us those in Stereo, rather then in Mono, would be nice..
(if not for us, at least for the competition sake with DTV's more superior Stereo Music ONLY channels :)
hehe

Steve Mehs

02-09-03, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by rusty shackleford
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the commercial Muzak package does not include the CD channels, only the mono
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To disprove the myth above, checkout the URL below.

http://muzak.com/

By my rough count, there are just about 31 E* stereo channels available to muzak customers.

How many times does it have to be said, Stereos for Dish Customers, Mono's for commercial establishments. I truley have no idea if the stereos are sold to businesses, but according to Tony's channels list, they are not included in the commercial package, that's why I put AFAIK. Mono gives the best results for their intended use and because it's like that it's best if they remain mono for reasons mentioned above.

TNGTony

02-09-03, 01:17 PM

Steve and all,

All the Muzak channels both mono and stereo are available to businesses. When I worked for GTE Wireless we got just the stereo channels. But the unit was hooked up without a Y connector so if we ever selected the 60'a channels with their Ping-Pong stereo effects or the Christmas channel with when Ray Conniff singers would have men on one side and women on the other, it sounded like hell!

My list is a little misleading in this respect. The channels listed as "Muzak" are the ones available for $40/month bucks in most businesses.

But Rusty will not be convinced even of the president of Muzak himself tells him what we've been telling him.

From http://muzak.com/design/l_bottom.htm

"Muzak is in the business of image. Your image. The style and placement of your Sound System is part of the design process, and our system designers match your design to your music. Whether you want a system that speaks softly or unleashes its highest fidelity, Muzak mixes the music to the message, provides sound communication and inspires the image you desire."

See ya
Tony

rusty shackleford

02-09-03, 02:16 PM

Apparentely Stever, you've done your share of headbanging and hopefully this will penetrate. (no offense intended)

Every music channel that is currently or previously available on E* has been designed, created and updated by muzak. They have a team of "Audio Architects" who audition and select all the music. Play logs are created by the arhcitects using a sophisticated scheduling software that utilize rules of tempo, texture, artist separation and many other subjective and objective characteristics that are assigned to each song and ultimately control the "flow" of the music. So, muzak get's the full credit or blame for the content of the program. But that's where it ends. Those chosen discs are then shipped to the E* uplink in Cheyenne WY, where they are loaded into huge "jukeboxes" that play the afore mentioned logs.

There are roughly 60 broadcast channels available to muzak subscribers (including those on Tony's list that say "Dish CD" next to them). It makes no difference to muzak if the signal is beamed up in mono or stereo. If it's in stereo, all the install tech has to do is "Y" the left and right together for the mono mix required in most environments. If it were up to muzak, all 60 could be in mono and it would make little difference in the field.

So why then are 31 channels beamed up in stereo?
a. because 31 is the year muzak opened for business?
b. because 31 is an arbitrary number that muzak selected?
c. because E* chooses which channels to beam up in stereo?

The answer is c. (it's E*'s bandwith, and they can do as they please with it)

So why are there 19 channels beamed up in mono?
a. because muzak demanded 19?
b. because muzak is powerful, but reasonable?
c. because E* chooses which channels to beam up in mono?

The answer is c. (It's E*'s bandwith, and they can do as they please with it)

Can anyone tell me the point of all this?
The answer is c. It's E*'s bandwith and they can do as they please with it.

So please stop your whining and stop using muzak as your scapegoat. If E* want's to use it's bandwith to put 19 more music channels in stereo, believe me, they're big boys, they'll do it. They have all 60 music sources stored and maintained at thier uplink, and if they chose to let muzak keep 19 channels in mono, they could do it and still beam them up in stereo for the rest of us.

Does any of this make sense yet?

Also, I'm not embarassed to admit that I don't know what AFAIK means.
(I'm not fluent in geekspeak)

Rust

Karl Foster

02-09-03, 02:25 PM

AFAIK - as far as I know

Richard King

02-09-03, 02:58 PM

Wow. Nothing like a "guest" walking in and making messes on your carpet. Talk about obsessed. It really doesn't matter what anyone here says to you, you wouldn't accept it. I suggest you file your "complaint" with Muzak (or Dish, or both). The fact that the various services are designed for specific audiences seems to make no difference to you. I don't know what the answer is that you are looking for, and apparently neither does anyone else. If I knew I would feed it to you, right or wrong, just to make you go away.

rusty shackleford

02-09-03, 03:48 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to sh*t on your carpet. mmmm shag, nice.

I don't have a complaint with muzak or E*.

My point is that if E* wanted to make the mono channels stereo, it is thier choice to do so or not. They have that ability.

If you won't accept that, that's YOUR choice. I have an opposing view. Isn't that what these forums strive on? Or would you like me to be a nice "guest" and join the dogpile on muzak?

Over 1800 posts in less than a year? Talk about obsessed.

Get a life, or I might just register.

Rust

Darkman

02-09-03, 03:53 PM

hehe - just register...no biggy and it's FREE :)

TNGTony

02-09-03, 04:46 PM

The 30 (not 19) mono music channels have been there since Dish started in 1996. They were not available to the public for over 4 years. They were only available to businesses. The 31 stereo channels came to Dish in late 1996 at Dish's request for their customers. The stereo music channels came available for $4.99 a la carte or as part of the new AT50 package to residential customers in late 1996. The mono music channels which were only available to businesses became available to residential customers in spring 2000 as "filler" channels in the newly created AT150. They were in mono with limited dynamic range because that's the way Muzak wanted it. They are still that way because that is STILL the way Muzak wants it. Accept this fact or not...it is still the fact. I know this wont say you out of your insistance on ignorance or whatever it is. But I thought a little history may help you to understand that businesses (which is the intended audience for the 30 Mono music channels DO NOT need or want hi dynamic range or stereo! They want even colume levels and mono. Believe it or not.

See ya
Tony

Mark Holtz

02-09-03, 05:13 PM

AFAIK, the audio channels take up a small amount of bandwidth compared to a regular channel. Having said that, a mono feed takes up less bandwidth than a stereo feed.

Muzak, AFAIK, provides all of the audio feeds for Dish Network, and provides a commercial-free feed for public establishments such as restaurants and on-hold phone systems. (After all, why should a potential customer hear an ad for the competition). The needs of the client will vary. A stereo feed does no good for a on-hold system, as an example.

(IIRC, you can use the audio from a radio station for your restaurant, along with the advertising).

The only thing that prevents you from hooking up a Dish receiver and piping it through your on-hold system or restaurant is that it is strictly against Dish's licensing agreement.

Mark Holtz

02-09-03, 05:21 PM

Oh, and one other thing....

Muzak is apparently using Dish Network's distribution in order to provide their product. But, if you check the 96xx channels during the day, you will find locked-out feeds for businesses to distrubute their videos ranging from a Metalife conference video to a McDonalds Franchise update to a Dish Network Customer Relations training video. Business pay for this limited distribution which provides a revenue stream to Dish Network.

James_F

02-09-03, 05:49 PM

Damn this thing exploded today. :rolleyes:

You know, if music is that important to you, why not go with DirecTV or your local cable provider and MusicChoice. :shrug:

shilton

02-09-03, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by TNGTony
The 30 (not 19) mono music channels have been there since Dish started in 1996. They were not available to the public for over 4 years. They were only available to businesses. The 31 stereo channels came to Dish in late 1996 at Dish's request for their customers. The stereo music channels came available for $4.99 a la carte or as part of the new AT50 package to residential customers in late 1996. The mono music channels which were only available to businesses became available to residential customers in spring 2000 as "filler" channels in the newly created AT150. They were in mono with limited dynamic range because that's the way Muzak wanted it. They are still that way because that is STILL the way Muzak wants it. Accept this fact or not...it is still the fact. I know this wont say you out of your insistance on ignorance or whatever it is. But I thought a little history may help you to understand that businesses (which is the intended audience for the 30 Mono music channels DO NOT need or want hi dynamic range or stereo! They want even colume levels and mono. Believe it or not.
See ya
Tony

Just one question if the above is true...how come Muzak claims that the channels are available in stereo and that Dish chooses which ones get put into which package (in other words...which ones are mono and which ones are stereo). I have emailed them about this in the past and their response was that I need to take my dissatisfaction concerning the mono channels up with Dish. They also pointed out that there are many more channels which Dish has not elected for.

dishrich

02-09-03, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by ?
The softwaqre IS at the uplink center, it does NOT get fed to dish via satellite. Bet on it. (it's mono because it was for commercial use)

Well, WHOEVER you are that can't register(or spell), I'll TAKE your bet, BECAUSE I helped my friend up on the roof of the fricken radio station, PUT UP THE DAMM 5' Ku band dish that pulls these feeds down, OK!!! AND, I saw him prog the Muzak receivers that pull them down FOR THE RADIO STATION! AND, Muzak has been using these SAME transmissions for these mono channels BEFORE DISHNETWORK even existed! :shrug: :shrug:

02-09-03, 09:09 PM

dishrich, I am so sorrrry abbout thee spellling, i guessss all that money i made installing thoose darrn soundd systemms havve gon to my head, i mustt havve been dreamming whenn i wass at thee uplinnk centter.

Darkman

02-09-03, 09:37 PM

? :confused: ? :confused: ? :confused: ? :confused: ? :confused: ? :confused: ?

dishrich

02-10-03, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by ?
dishrich, I am so sorrrry abbout thee spellling, i guessss all that money i made installing thoose darrn soundd systemms havve gon to my head, i mustt havve been dreamming whenn i wass at thee uplinnk centter.

Probably so, since I'VE been to the uplink center TOO & ONLY saw the CD jukeboxes for the 32 STEREO channels & NONE in site for the MONO ones... :lol: :lol: :shrug: :shrug:

rusty shackleford

02-10-03, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by dishrich

Probably so, since I'VE been to the uplink center TOO & ONLY saw the CD jukeboxes for the 32 STEREO channels & NONE in site for the MONO ones... :lol: :lol: :shrug: :shrug:

If you've been there at all, you havn't been there in the last 2 years. I know that it's dark down there so, you'd better check again...and bring a calculator this time. LOL, shrug!

Agent Orange

bryan27

02-10-03, 10:20 AM

Many radio stations transmit Muzak services on their sub-carriers for reception by local businesses. Sub-carriers on FM are mono and can not be transmitted in stereo. The 19 mono feeds on E* are the same mono feeds FM stations send out on their sub-carriers.

JayeDVXIII

02-10-03, 11:08 AM

Everyone has good reasons for why there are mono channels and why there are stereo channels; personally, I think they should ALL be stereo; If i'm going to pay 42.99 a month for AT150 and I'm using it in my HOME, then yes, all channels should be in stereo--save the mono for business accounts. How many people do you know actually use the audio channels through their TV anyway? jeez

It kinda sucks because there are 2 channels on the mono list that I really really like; but of course..there isn't a simliar channel in the "DishCD" package.

Change them all to stereo! :-)

dishrich

02-10-03, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by bryan27
Many radio stations transmit Muzak services on their sub-carriers for reception by local businesses. Sub-carriers on FM are mono and can not be transmitted in stereo. The 19 mono feeds on E* are the same mono feeds FM stations send out on their sub-carriers.

At least YOU understand bryan27. :shrug: :shrug:
And to add to that, all these radio stations are NOT pulling down these feeds from E* - they are pulling them down DIRECT FROM MUZAK! (it used to be from Ku band on Galaxy 4, but I believe they have moved) These are the very SAME FEEDS that E* is downlinking & retransmitting. (of course, I guess SOME people around here will say that there are 2 versions of these same mono channels I guess...one direct from Muzak & one from E* CD jukeboxes...) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Darkman

02-10-03, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by JayeDVXIII
Everyone has good reasons for why there are mono channels and why there are stereo channels; personally, I think they should ALL be stereo; If i'm going to pay 42.99 a month for AT150 and I'm using it in my HOME, then yes, all channels should be in stereo--save the mono for business accounts. How many people do you know actually use the audio channels through their TV anyway? jeez

It kinda sucks because there are 2 channels on the mono list that I really really like; but of course..there isn't a simliar channel in the "DishCD" package.

Change them all to stereo! :-)

Yes...
Nowadays - Mono is kinda lame and sucks :(
Would be real nice, of course to have those all Mono ones in Stereo ( regardless if it is any possible or not :) )

bryan27

02-12-03, 07:32 AM

dishrich, I was just thinking. Does it really matter if something is in stereo or mono? Most people don't care. Our radio station transmits in mono because a mono signal is more reliable and increases the coverage area. No one has complained.

When one really thinks about it the world around us is in mono. If you stick your finger in your ear you still hear everything around you. When I speak I have one mouth and what I say isn't split into left and right channels :)

Richard King

02-12-03, 08:21 AM

When I speak I have one mouth and what I say isn't split into left and right channels Yes, but some people speak in stereo when they are speaking out of both sides of their mouths, but that's another story. :D

JayeDVXIII

02-12-03, 10:15 AM

The mono channels, when played over my stereo, are too soft and lack any dynamic at all ..the stereo channels are much clearer and have more audio "oomph"

dishrich

02-12-03, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by bryan27
dishrich, I was just thinking. Does it really matter if something is in stereo or mono? Most people don't care. Our radio station transmits in mono because a mono signal is more reliable and increases the coverage area. No one has complained.

Well, I think it depends on the situation. If you're transmitting a music service for commerical (read: backround) music, then mono is fine. We had a local FM station that transmitted two of the Muzak channels (Foreground 1 & Environmental) & I used to listen to them all the time if I took my portable radio to a job, etc. (it's a "special" radio that picked up both 67 & 92 khz subcarriers on top of the main channel) I loved listening to them because they were different & non-repeticious. Yea, it was mono & not the best fidelity, but for my use, it was ok. We even had another radio station that transmitted backround music on a subcarrier, but it was a "homebrew" service & they leased the subcarrier from the station.

Unfortunately, neither station no longer transmits these music services... :( :( :(

BUT, it's a service directed at the home user, (ie: Music Choice or DMX) then absolutely, stereo is a MUST! (considering the fact that DISH proclaims "CD quality sound" - sorry, but mono just DOESN'T fit that definition!) Frankly, I think using these 19 channels as "filler" doesn't add a lot to the the AT150 package, other than advertising hype. (I'm sure others here will disagree) I think at a minimum, DISH needs to add MORE stereo channels, or better yet switch to DMX for the "home packages". Unfortunately, I DON'T see Cheap Charlie doing either anytime soon, but since I have MC on D*, it don't really matter to me - I could NOT live w/out my MC though; it is just a more polished service.

FTA Michael

02-12-03, 04:20 PM

I've got Dish running through my home theater setup, so of course there's a big quality difference between the mono channels and the stereo channels.

And of course there's almost no incentive for Dish to make any changes. How many people choose their DBS provider by the music it provides? The music channels are filler to get the AT* number where they want it without subscribers counting them up and complaining.

Wait a minute! I did choose my DBS provider for its music. I installed XM radio last week. :)