MPEG4 via MFH1... so claims our MDU provider?

[Stephen M. Smith]

I'm am totally confused and am pretty certain that our MDU provider is even more confused than me. Here is the situation:

I'm in an MFH1 MDU and our provider estimates that they will be able to upgrade us to MFH2 sometime over the summer. Meanwhile, they send out the announcement below last week. I met w/the reps for our property and they confirmed that this is a pure receiver swap-out, ie. no changes will occur to the dishes on the roof or the MFH1 building wiring.

Is there any way this is possible? ie. an MPEG4 D* box getting the MPEG4 HD locals via our MFH1 wiring and no changes to the dishes on the roof? Even if they add more dishes to the roof and point them at the MPEG4 sats, would they be able to deliver those signals over MFH1? They can't mean OTA b/c H21/HR21's don't have OTA tuners.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9841/image1sq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[AntAltMike]

Hmm..... Technically, when an MFH-1 system is upgraded to MFH-2, the dish and MFH-1 wiring don't get changed. The MFH-1s have seven spare F connector output ports in parallel with their thru ports, and any SWMs can be sourced by them.

FWIW, it has been posted elsewhere that DirecTV announced in December that it is soon discontinuing its MPEG-2 HDTV on Sat C, so if it is also discontinuing its Sat B MPEG-2 HDTV, then that would give it space to at least temporarily put the New York City and Los Angeles HDTV locals there.

[Steve]

FWIW, it has been posted elsewhere that DirecTV announced in December that it is soon discontinuing its MPEG-2 HDTV on Sat C, so if it is also discontinuing its Sat B MPEG-2 HDTV, then that would give it space to at least temporaroly put the New York City and Los Angeles HDTV locals there.Yes, but from what I've read in another forum, they will be replaced with MPEG-4 transmissions of those channels, hence the need for the H/HR units. /steve

[Stephen M. Smith]

Well I just called D* tech support and the person I spoke said it was definitely not possible to deliver MPEG4 via MFH1 MDU equipment.

[AntAltMike]

Well I just called D* tech support and the person I spoke said it was definitely not possible to deliver MPEG4 via MFH1 MDU equipment.

That's why people come here instead of calling DirecTV. MFH-1 PASSES MPEG4 trunkline signal through it, and its auxilliary outputs are then converted to SWM for economical distribution to the units that need it.

Furthermore MFH-1 stacks and distributes whatever is on Ku satellites A, B and C, regardless of its compression format, so as soon as DirecTV transmits MPEG-4 on any Sat A, B or C transponder, the MFH-1 system will distribute it. What I don't know at present is what DirecTV receivers will be able to accept software that allow it to differentiate between and process MPEG2 and MPEG4 within the same band.

[RobertE]

Just keep in mind that the compression Mpeg 2 or 4 has nothing to do with the band its transmitted on Ku/Ka/C/whatever.

I think they need to dedicate a whole transponder to a compression format though. So if one channel is Mpeg4, every channel on that transponder needs to be Mpeg4. I may be wrong on this point though.

[Earl Bonovich]

As RobertE (and the others have stated).

There are two pieces to the puzzle:
Distribution and compression.

MFH-1/2/3 is the distribution method (just like Ka/Ku are the distribution method)... all of those methods are able to carry any of the compression formats.

Your MDU is correct.

DirecTV is going to start sending the LA-DNS channels on one of the sats that are compatible with MFH-1... but in MPEG-4... so you will need a receiver that can decompress MPEG-4 encoding.

[Earl Bonovich]

Well I just called D* tech support and the person I spoke said it was definitely not possible to deliver MPEG4 via MFH1 MDU equipment.

That D* tech person was incorrect... if you have a name or emp number, please forward it to me... so I can forward it on, so the information can be provided to them.

[texasbrit]

But I don't think Earl pointed out that this delivery of MPEG-4 versions of the LA DNS locals over one of the Ku satellites is only temporary, and some time later this year the channels will only be available from one of the Ka satellites. It is just designed to give the MDU installers a little breathing space to get their MFH2/3 systems installed.

[Stephen M. Smith]

That's why people come here instead of calling DirecTV. MFH-1 PASSES MPEG4 trunkline signal through it, and its auxilliary outputs are then converted to SWM for economical distribution to the units that need it.


Ummmmm, ok, what does that mean in layman's terms?

Consolidated was here this morning replacing various legacy MPEG2 receivers/dvr's w/new MPEG4 20's and/or 21's. Both my HDVR2 and HR10-250 are still operating fine, and HR10-250 still receiving MPEG2 HD content as before. Are you saying that someone here w/an HR21 could also be receiving MPEG4 HD right now at the same time via the same MFH1 equipment?

[Stephen M. Smith]

That D* tech person was incorrect... if you have a name or emp number, please forward it to me... so I can forward it on, so the information can be provided to them.

I don't have a name or number. I called 1-888-713-7772 but I'm not totally sure what dept it is. I've called this number a few times before and always been very happy w/whoever picked up the phone on the other end, so I saved it. Perhaps mdu type questions aren' appropriate for this phone number?

[AntAltMike]

I just checked a 2006 transponder table, and ABC E&W HD, Fox E&W HD, and CBS W HD were being carried by the 119 satellite, and NBC E&W and CBSE were on 101, so they can readily be assimilated by an MFH-1 system in MPEG4 format.

RobertE is correct in that the entire transponder contents will have to be in MPEG4 format, but that will not be a problem, because three MPEG4 HDTV channels will fully utilize it.

[Earl Bonovich]

But I don't think Earl pointed out that this delivery of MPEG-4 versions of the LA DNS locals over one of the Ku satellites is only temporary, and some time later this year the channels will only be available from one of the Ka satellites. It is just designed to give the MDU installers a little breathing space to get their MFH2/3 systems installed.

Correct.. but to the end user... except for a scheduled reboot of the systems (to switch into SWM mode)... that should be transparent to them. (and the fact that they will get a ton more HD channels)

[AntAltMike]

Perhaps mdu type questions aren' appropriate for this phone number?
Regrettably, MDU questions aren't appropriate for any DirecTV phone number. The residential CSRs have been misinforming my customers with stacked LNB systems for this entire century, and more recently, they have been telling those customers that the only reason they don't have access to DirecTV's entire HDTV lineup is that their B-band converter module is missing.

So when someone who hardly know of me calls and I tell them something they don't like the sound of, like that they can't have what they want, or that getting what they want will cost them some money, and then they call "DirecTV" and are told that they can have what they want, and they can get it for free, guess who the customer thinks is smart and who the dummy is. After all, "they are DirecTV!"

[AntAltMike]

By the way, if this temporary move is just for those four Los Angeles broadcast HDTV locals and if DirecTV stuffs all four onto one 30MHz wide transponder, then you are going to have serious HDTV-lite.

[Earl Bonovich]

By the way, if this temporary move is just for those four Los Angeles broadcast HDTV locals and if DirecTV stuffs all four onto one 30MHz wide transponder, then you are going to have serious HDTV-lite.

Why? The current MPEG-2 is in the similar space... MPEG-4 is definently a tighter compression scheme...

Pretty sure they know what compression level and space they need, since they have already been broadcasting those channels for 2 years on the spot beam.

And it is just for the DMA based ones... the customers that have 5LNB and are in the LA area... won't be accessing these channels.

[AntAltMike]

Why? The current MPEG-2 is in the similar space... MPEG-4 is definently a tighter compression scheme...

Pretty sure they know what compression level and space they need, since they have already been broadcasting those channels for 2 years on the spot beam.

And it is just for the DMA based ones... the customers that have 5LNB and are in the LA area... won't be accessing these channels.
The Ku transponders are just under 30 MHz wide, whereas the Ka spot transponders, on which I believe they ordinarily carry four MPEG4 channels, are 40 MHz wide. Presently DirecTV puts two MPEG2 programs plus a standard definition program or some music on a single, 30 MHz Ku transponder. MPEG4 is about 30% denser than MPEG 2. So if DirecTV decides it only wants to mess up one Ku transponder at the moment, to give up just two MPEG2 national HDTV programs, then it will have to temporarily water down the four LA HDTV stations, whereas if they give them 10 MHz each, they will have to drop two more Ku MPEG2 HDTV programs on another Ku transponder and wind up wasting the other 20 MHz of that second transponder.



Oops. Because I didn't realize that the LA HDTV nationals were on 119 and 101 when this thread began, I started with the assumption that two national general interest HDTV channels would have to be sacrificed in this temporary move, which I now realize is not the case, but now this leaves me wondering why DirecTV is bothering to do it at all. Maybe they will be adding two more nationally available LA channels in the same transponder space, or maybe they will be putting up two new Ku MPEG4 services that make revenue, like PPV.

[Stephen M. Smith]

Correct.. but to the end user... except for a scheduled reboot of the systems (to switch into SWM mode)... that should be transparent to them. (and the fact that they will get a ton more HD channels)

But we will get these ton more HD channels only when our MDU is fully upgraded to MFH2 and our dishes are all pointing at the MPEG4 sats, right? Between 4/1/07 and whenever our MDU MFH2 upgrade occurs, we will receive exactly the same HD channels that we get today via MPEG2, except that our LA HD locals will delivered in MPEG4 format. Correct?

Are these MPEG4 LA HD locals already up or is that not occurring until 3/31 when the MPEG2 west coast HD locals are taken down?

[Earl Bonovich]

But we will get these ton more HD channels only when our MDU is fully upgraded to MFH2 and our dishes are all pointing at the MPEG4 sats, right? Between 4/1/07 and whenever our MDU MFH2 upgrade occurs, we will receive exactly the same HD channels that we get today via MPEG2, except that our LA HD locals will delivered in MPEG4 format. Correct?

Are these MPEG4 LA HD locals already up or is that not occurring until 3/31 when the MPEG2 west coast HD locals are taken down?

Correct... you will not get any of the other HD channels until the upgrade to MFH-2 is completed... (or if DirecTV places them on one of the 101/110/119 sats).

The MPEG-4 LA HD Locals are already up, but I believe they are on the 99/103 right now... check your channels in the upper 300's to see if you are getting the channels now.

[Earl Bonovich]

but now this leaves me wondering why DirecTV is bothering to do it at all.

It is partially to regain some of the SAT space on the main birds...
But the main point is to start and force the issue.

They have been trying to convert/upgrade people to the MPEG-4 based systems now for almost two years.. And is getting near the end.

So now they have to raise the stakes to get the stragglers to upgrade, and start to realize that DirecTV is really going to convert those channels.

And this gives the MDU's a kick in the pants as well, but also gives them just a little more time to get the task done.

[PrinceBandar]

It is partially to regain some of the SAT space on the main birds...
But the main point is to start and force the issue.

They have been trying to convert/upgrade people to the MPEG-4 based systems now for almost two years.. And is getting near the end.

So now they have to raise the stakes to get the stragglers to upgrade, and start to realize that DirecTV is really going to convert those channels.

And this gives the MDU's a kick in the pants as well, but also gives them just a little more time to get the task done.

When do you think they will do the conversion --as an MDU guy- I'd really like them to just convert now and force the operator to move over now.

[Earl Bonovich]

When do you think they will do the conversion --as an MDU guy- I'd really like them to just convert now and force the operator to move over now.

September is when I believe they are targetting moving the LA MPEG-4's back to the 103 slot (or 99).

The other MPEG-4's will probably be with in a few months of that... as they evaluate the landscape of how many non-mpeg-4 receiver households are left out there.

[Stephen M. Smith]

I was wondering how long they would leave these LA MPEG4's up and whether or not they were monitoring the MFH2 upgrade situation here in LA. Good news on both those questions then.

[Stephen M. Smith]

The MPEG-4 LA HD Locals are already up, but I believe they are on the 99/103 right now... check your channels in the upper 300's to see if you are getting the channels now.

Well I can't do that b/c I'm one of those HR10-250 stragglers waiting for the compelling reason to finally let go of my beloved TiVo D* DVR, which would be the 100 MPEG4 HD channels I'll get once our MDU is MFH2. Luckily, I can get perfect HD locals OTA using the building's MFH1 wiring as my antenna.

[Stephen M. Smith]

That's why people come here instead of calling DirecTV. MFH-1 PASSES MPEG4 trunkline signal through it, and its auxilliary outputs are then converted to SWM for economical distribution to the units that need it.

Furthermore MFH-1 stacks and distributes whatever is on Ku satellites A, B and C, regardless of its compression format, so as soon as DirecTV transmits MPEG-4 on any Sat A, B or C transponder, the MFH-1 system will distribute it. What I don't know at present is what DirecTV receivers will be able to accept software that allow it to differentiate between and process MPEG2 and MPEG4 within the same band.

Does this mean that, while I await our MDU MFH2 upgrade, I would not be able to have both my current HR10-250 and a HR21 that is receiving these MPEG4 LA HD locals at the same time? But other than these MPEG4 LA HD locals, it would function as expected when connected to a MFH1 system?

[RobertE]

Does this mean that, while I await our MDU MFH2 upgrade, I would not be able to have both my current HR10-250 and a HR21 that is receiving these MPEG4 LA HD locals at the same time? But other than these MPEG4 LA HD locals, it would function as expected when connected to a MFH1 system?

HR21 - No problem getting whatever is getting converted to Mpeg4
HR10 - Whatever gets converted to Mpeg4 will no longer show up on this box.

[Stephen M. Smith]

OK, I now have an HR21 on top of my HR10-250 and HDVR2. The only LA HD channels I see in my HR21 are the same MPEG2 LA's in the 80-99 channel range. I know these are MPEG2 b/c the D* upgrade warning message is scrolling on them every half hour.

Are the temporary MPEG4 LA HD locals broadcasting right now? On different channels or will the MPEG2 80-89 HD networks magically change to MPEG4 on 4/1?

[Earl Bonovich]

OK, I now have an HR21 on top of my HR10-250 and HDVR2. The only LA HD channels I see in my HR21 are the same MPEG2 LA's in the 80-99 channel range. I know these are MPEG2 b/c the D* upgrade warning message is scrolling on them every half hour.

Are the temporary MPEG4 LA HD locals broadcasting right now? On different channels or will the MPEG2 80-89 HD networks magically change to MPEG4 on 4/1?

Yes, they are in the 300's

The 80's version of them will be removed from the lineup on ~ 4/1

[Earl Bonovich]

Yes, they are in the 300's

The 80's version of them will be removed from the lineup on ~ 4/1

However... I am not sure they are broadcasting yet from the MFH-1 compatible slots yet.

[Stephen M. Smith]

Well, I sure would love to see the 390's channels before the MPEG2 disappear, just for a comfort factor. God forbid I miss Lost in HD or something. Actually, I need to see them before the MPEG disappear in order to change out all my LA HD season passes to the new channels.

[Earl Bonovich]

Well, I sure would love to see the 390's channels before the MPEG2 disappear, just for a comfort factor. God forbid I miss Lost in HD or something. Actually, I need to see them before the MPEG disappear in order to change out all my LA HD season passes to the new channels.

I am sure.. there will be a few day over lap... but i would expect more then that.

[Stephen M. Smith]

Let me throw this out, if you don't mind, b/c it has D* tech support baffled: my HR21 thinks that 87 (MPEG2 HD ABC) and 89 (MPEG2 HD Fox) are not channels that I get (greyed out) and will not record anything on these 2 channels. No problems manually tuning to these 2 channels and watching them, nor any issues at all w/the other 2 MPEG2 HD networks, 81 and 83. HR10-250 has no issues w/them either, only the HR21. It's been about 4 days now and I've done a few resets to be safe, but problem still remains.

Any ideas on this one? I doubt it's related the MPEG2 vs MPEG4 LA HD locals b/c it's only ABC and Fox but you never know.

[Earl Bonovich]

Let me throw this out, if you don't mind, b/c it has D* tech support baffled: my HR21 thinks that 87 (MPEG2 HD ABC) and 89 (MPEG2 HD Fox) are not channels that I get (greyed out) and will not record anything on these 2 channels. No problems manually tuning to these 2 channels and watching them, nor any issues at all w/the other 2 MPEG2 HD networks, 81 and 83. HR10-250 has no issues w/them either, only the HR21. It's been about 4 days now and I've done a few resets to be safe, but problem still remains.

Any ideas on this one? I doubt it's related the MPEG2 vs MPEG4 LA HD locals b/c it's only ABC and Fox but you never know.

That is because they disabled the channels... they are starting the shutoff. It is part of the final steps, to make sure you have switched all your recordings over to the other channels.

You should have access to the channles in the 300's.

[Stephen M. Smith]

Nope, there ain't nothing at all in the 390's.

[Stephen M. Smith]

OK, what the hell is going on here? The message on channel 85 has been updated w/the specific 390's channel numbers for the new MPEG4 LA HD locals and says they're up right now. But still nothing in my guide.

I don't recall if this was there before, but I notice the channel 85 message says you need both a MPEG4 receiver *and* and 5 lnb Ka/Ku dish to receive them. Did D* decide to put them on a different sat at the last minute? That would explain why I ain't seeing them b/c no changes were made to our existing MPEG2 dish setup.

Edit: OK, D* is telling me these are on sat 103 and so we do indeed need a Ka/Ku dish to get them... this must've been a last minute change on D*'s part?

[Stephen M. Smith]

And D* is also telling me that B convertors will be required along w/dish upgrade to get these temporary MPEG4 LA HD locals. Is that true?

If so, then it's a bit of a nightmare for our sysop since they already upgraded all the older MPEG2 HD receivers around here and did not use them. So now they need to not only upgrade the dish but get b convertors on every box for 400+ units...

[RobertE]

And D* is also telling me that B convertors will be required along w/dish upgrade to get these temporary MPEG4 LA HD locals. Is that true?

If so, then it's a bit of a nightmare for our sysop since they already upgraded all the older MPEG2 HD receivers around here and did not use them. So now they need to not only upgrade the dish but get b convertors on every box for 400+ units...

Assuming your sysop is using the SWMs, then no BBCs are needed. Do you get anything on CH 480 & 481?

[Stephen M. Smith]

No SWM b/c we're still on MFH1. This is the special case the D* is doing (I think) just for the Los Angeles MDU market. We got our local LA HD from D* via the national west cost MPEG2 feeds which D* has dropped today. They are putting up special MPEG4 LA HD channels on some sat that our MFH1 dishes are already pointing at to give MDU sysops more time to upgrade MDU like us to MFH2.

SysOp says to ignore the D* message about KA/KU and that MDU's do not need that dish and/or b-convertors.

The MPEG2 8x channels are now gone but the 39x channels are still not there. SysOp says should be there tomorrow. Very frustrating for us DVR owners that D* didn't put the MPEG4 up before taken down the MPEG2 so we could fix all our season passes...

[RobertE]

No SWM b/c we're still on MFH1. This is the special case the D* is doing (I think) just for the Los Angeles MDU market. We got our local LA HD from D* via the national west cost MPEG2 feeds which D* has dropped today. They are putting up special MPEG4 LA HD channels on some sat that our MFH1 dishes are already pointing at to give MDU sysops more time to upgrade MDU like us to MFH2.

SysOp says to ignore the D* message about KA/KU and that MDU's do not need that dish and/or b-convertors.

The MPEG2 8x channels are now gone but the 39x channels are still not there. SysOp says should be there tomorrow. Very frustrating for us DVR owners that D* didn't put the MPEG4 up before taken down the MPEG2 so we could fix all our season passes...

I was at a customers house this past Sat (3/29) who had LA HD DNS channels. All of them showed up in the 390s. This was in Ohio. :D

[Stephen M. Smith]

Yeah, it appears that a lot of peeps can see them. I think anyone with a Ka/Ku dush of their roof can. Those who can't see them are peeps like me in a MFH1 MDU w/a SysOp that hasn't gotten the word disseminated that D* has decided to put them on a different sat than originally planned and so we too now need a Ka/Ku dish on our roof to get them.