View Full Version : BREAKING NEWS: New Dish Network High Definition Channels!
Mark Lamutt
02-10-03, 12:02 PM
We here at DBSTalk have been investigating an exclusive story for the last few weeks, and can now make the following announcement: (Of course nothing is Official until Dish Network issues a press release) :)
DBSTalk.com has learned that HDNet is coming to Dish Network!
We have been hearing from our sources over the past few weeks very strong indications that Dish will begin offering the HDNet channel package this summer with the release of the next generation HD receivers.
The HDNet channels will be broadcast from the 110 degree satellite location utilizing the 8PSK format compression. Dish 6000 users will need the 8PSK expansion module to receive the channels. The 921 and JVC HD receivers will have the 8PSK capability built into them.
We are also hearing that Discovery HDTheater will be moving to the 110 degree satellite location. With the addition of the HDNet channels and the move of Discovery HDTheater to 110, two full core slot transponders will be used exclusively for high definition programming content.
No word yet on pricing for the new HDNet programming package, but we will be sure to pass it along to you, the DBSTalk users as soon as we know! We are hoping that there will be some mention of this tonight on the Tech Chat.
It should be noted that a few users have mentioned that they have been part of a special HD focus group recently and during part of this focus group the attendies were asked how much they would pay for a High Definition channel package.
We have also heard a strong buzz of ESPN-HD coming to Dish Network (in fact at CES a few attendies were told by Dish Network Employees EPSN-HD was indeed coming) We expect ESPN-HD to also be a subscription channel.
Just another exclusive brought to you by DBSTalk.com, proving once again that we are the internet's #1 source for DBS news and information!
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 12:17 PM
Mark very cool news, I have also been hearing what you posted above. :)
For those of you how do not know about HDNet check out http://www.hd.net/
This all makes sense in the big scheme of things. HD is really catching on! The NBA All Star Weekend was GREAT this weekend!
HD Ready sets are flying off the shelves at the electronics store and now people need a HD receiver to hook up to them.
I think its a VERY smart move for Dish to put HD content on the 110 bird! This now makes HD available to many who can not have a second dish or can not see 61.5 or 148.
2003 is going to be a big year for HDTV! And it's already got off to a great start!
gcutler
02-10-03, 12:19 PM
What about compression of other channels. Will these channels cause more compression of other channels?
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 12:23 PM
The HD Channels will be on their own transponders, the compression of the other channels will not be affected.
There is a lot of room on 110 so doing this is no problem at all. :)
Lyle_JP
02-10-03, 12:32 PM
If both channels are using 8PSK compression, why are they each taking up one whole transponder? I thought the whole point of the new compression standard was to fit 3 Hi-Def channels per transponder.
angiodan
02-10-03, 12:33 PM
Yippie Ky Yay!!!!
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 12:34 PM
Lyle, perhaps thats where ESPN HD will fit. :D
Jacob S
02-10-03, 12:43 PM
Maybe they are putting one per transponder as those transponders are the ones reserved and then later put more HD channels on those transponders. This is a good move by Dish since HD is getting more popular now.
The key here (for me) is if it is true, it will be at 110. I can only get 110 and 119 because I am in the woods. Very good news if it comes true!
Mark Lamutt
02-10-03, 01:19 PM
3 HDNet channels, 1 D-HDT channel, 1 ESPN-HD channel (maybe?) = 6 channels = 3 channels per transponder...
Or so my math says anyways. :)
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 01:35 PM
Maybe the missing channel is Bravo-HD which also is launching this year. :)
Or perhaps since Dish is on a HBO kick lately HBO HD will move... Or perhaps it could be Cinemax HD which is also launching this year.
They have lots of room and lots of things they can do, I know I am going to be there watching it all unfold and I am excited by it!
James_F
02-10-03, 01:58 PM
HDNet is SO much better than any other HD channels out there. Nothing like watching hockey in HD. Of course some of the movies they show are crap, but nothing like watching Anna Kournikova (http://www.kournikova.com/) in HD. :D
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 02:14 PM
One of the key things was Dish could not show HDNet because HDnet showed sports. (NBA and Hockey) now that Dish offers both sports this is no longer an issue. :D
DarrellP
02-10-03, 03:02 PM
They won't move HBO or Sho HD to 110 because then they would have to give me a free 8psk module, unless they mirrored them, which would be a total waste of bandwidth.
[i]...There is a lot of room on 110 so doing this is no problem at all. :) ...[/B]
Granted, I an not very up on how transponders are allocated, but this statement confuses me. I probably misunderstand but it is VERY easy to get led to believe that without additional sats that both D* and E* were virtually full. At least full up enough that the HD revolution spelled doom and gloom for DBS in general. Also this has been a fairly common explaination as to why our SD looks worse than in the past...almost full so had to compress more.
Anyone give me some explaination as to why 110 has so much room while E still needs to compress more to make room for any new channels? My ignorance of this subject should easily melt someone's heart enough to give the real sccop :blush:
BTW - I have never really bought into all the hype over DBS' general demise...but I never really had a good comeback either. All I know is my pic is still pretty good, just not as good as it was :hi:
A simple statement from my new Toshiba 65HDX82 HDTV:
FEED ME, FEED ME, FEED ME :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jacob S
02-10-03, 04:40 PM
Maybe they have it reserved for certain local cities or for backup in case a satellite goes out.
rbonzer
02-10-03, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by fv3
Dish needs to realize that there are a fair number of potential HD customers who are sitting on their hands waiting for them to ship the 921. Until it is available, they are not going to pick up many new HD subscribers, because those who do not already have a 6000 will not be running out to get one.....
Yep, my wife has already OK'd me for a new tv, but I'm just waiting for the 921. I'm addicted to the 501, so there is no way I'd spend good money on a non-PVR unit. And I LOVE the fact that the 921 PVRs the local OTA HD.
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 05:33 PM
I probably misunderstand but it is VERY easy to get led to believe that without additional sats that both D* and E* were virtually full. At least full up enough that the HD revolution spelled doom and gloom for DBS in general.
The 110 satellite use to be close to being full, as it had all the locals on it, however they launched a Spot Beam satellite (which can reuse transponders for various areas of the country) so that opened up a lot of space at 110. :)
I've been waiting to buy a 921 also. I was not going to invest unless they match a good product with current programming. Now all I need is a nice little promo package to upgrade me to HD. My impressions from reading this forum over the past 3 months is that since I'm a current customer all deals are done. I've been with dish about a year and don't have any complaints, I have a 501 and two 301's. I've been trying to keep my options open on being able to switch to whoever has the best picture, sound and programming. I don't currently own my hardware so switching would not be a big deal, but with the features of the 921 and more HD I will probably make the large investment and go with Dish.
Scott Greczkowski
02-10-03, 06:00 PM
Welcome jm9 :hi: Great post!
Originally posted by James_F
HDNet is SO much better than any other HD channels out there. Nothing like watching hockey in HD. Of course some of the movies they show are crap, but nothing like watching Anna Kournikova (http://www.kournikova.com/) in HD. :D
I must insist you not post with direct links to Anna Kournikova anymore. I click on it, stare for awhile, my wife walks by and hits my head and I'm in trouble. All because you posted a link. :lol: :D
Originally posted by EvanS
Granted, I an not very up on how transponders are allocated, but this statement confuses me. I probably misunderstand but it is VERY easy to get led to believe that without additional sats that both D* and E* were virtually full. At least full up enough that the HD revolution spelled doom and gloom for DBS in general. Also this has been a fairly common explaination as to why our SD looks worse than in the past...almost full so had to compress more.
Anyone give me some explaination as to why 110 has so much room while E still needs to compress more to make room for any new channels? My ignorance of this subject should easily melt someone's heart enough to give the real sccop :blush:
BTW - I have never really bought into all the hype over DBS' general demise...but I never really had a good comeback either. All I know is my pic is still pretty good, just not as good as it was :hi:
Actually Dish is a much better position bandwidth wise with regard to HD than is DirecTV. Dish has 5 more transponders of Full Conus Bandwidth than DirecTV also Dish has moved some of their small or non Network locals to the side slots. 110 has lots of bandwidth now available with most Local into Local packages moving to Spot Beams.
119 is the Core Service location for Top 50 and Top 100 as well as 90 percent of the Premium packages. The only Core Channels at 110 are some extra Premiums and the channels exclusive to the Top 150 package. Most of the reason for the lack of detail on the Top 50 and Top 100 packages is the compression ratios used at 119, this is unlikely to change because Alaska, Hawaii, and alot of Subscribers in the Caribean can't see 110.
With the 8SPK compression algorthym Dish can squeeze two HD channels per transponder, so Two Transponders at 110 would yield at least 4 HD channels, with maybe enough bandwidth to add another SD channel. QSPK compression (This is being used at 61.5 and 148 for the first HD channels that Dish Carried; HBO, Showtime, PPV, and Demo Channel (61.5 only)) will only get one HD channel per transponder with some room left over for a SD channel or two.
HD net on Dish is great news!! Thanks Mark!!!
I wonder if they would put a single feed of CBS on 110?
Well, DISH is currently testing 3 channels including Discovery HD Theater on the 8PSK transponder at 61.5 and there are 6 transponders at 110 with 5 or less channels, currently. Transponders which have 8 channels on them look quite good, so space is not a problem for 2 transponders of HD at 110. And one might assume they would have 3 channels each for a total of 6 HD channels. Of course 2 HD channels each would be more reliable.
James_F
02-10-03, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by tampa8
I must insist you not post with direct links to Anna Kournikova anymore. I click on it, stare for awhile, my wife walks by and hits my head and I'm in trouble. All because you posted a link. :lol: :D
You mean you are telling me that she has a problem with this?
http://images.allposters.com/images/109/041_24082.jpg
or this?
http://www.celebwelove.com/Anna_Kournikova/Anna_Kournikova.jpg
or my favorite?
One huge picture (http://www.anna-fans.com/preview/preview-images/preview15.jpg)
Mike123abc
02-10-03, 08:19 PM
110 also has much higher power than 61.5/148. In fact 110 has more than double. So, they could turn down the error correction to 5/6 (they run 2/3 on the low power wings). This would get the bit rate over 50mbit/sec. This would allow easy carrying of 3 per transponder.
The problem with HDTV and DBS has not been the national feeds, just the difficulty of carrying LIL in HDTV.
It would be cool to see them have all new HD channels on the 110 bird. Bravo HD, Cinemax HD, HBO HD, SHO HD, Discovery HD, HDNet, Hallmark HD, and ESPN HD. That would be the ultimate HD package if I ever saw one. They would HAVE to do 8PSK to crunch all that bandwidth down.
PS: Anna, I love you ... you never call or write anymore. Please come home. :D
Cyclone
02-10-03, 09:43 PM
I wonder how much will these channels be? I have Discovery HD and I must admit, its hard to justify 7.99 a month for a single channel. I just did it to see HD and may likely cancel it. But with the new channel if I can get them all for under $20, then I may stay with that.
Cyclone
Jacob S
02-11-03, 12:00 AM
Wasn't Anna Kournikova in a music video with Enrique Iglesias called "Escape" ?
Originally posted by Cyclone
I wonder how much will these channels be? I have Discovery HD and I must admit, its hard to justify 7.99 a month for a single channel.
Cyclone
Ton's of people have been paying that much or more for a single HBO or Showtime channel in the past on cable. I agree that $7.99 for what's on Discovery is a bit high, based on their past programming, but it's getting better.
Originally posted by Jacob S
Wasn't Anna Kournikova in a music video with Enrique Iglesias called "Escape" ?
Jason,
don't know the song, but YES, she was in a vid with him
Originally posted by JohnL
....Actually Dish is a much better position bandwidth wise with regard to HD than is DirecTV....
thanks for all the xplaination on the sat/TP loading :hi:
Dang, I completely forgot about the spots...but even then I thought they were more for moving ahead. Didn't realize SO much had been reallocated to them.
Very cool!!
Evan
It seems we quickly forget how Dish has given current subscribers "perks" from time to time. Remember last summer when Discovery HDT was being announced and that 8PSK modulation (NOT compression) was being announced? Dish's perk to current customers was you could get the 8PSK module for FREE (including shipping) if you signed up for a 1-year subscription to DHDT ($95.88). If you wanted to go month-to-month, they would sell you the modulator for full price but give you free shipping. At the same time, they had an upgrade path for current model 5000 owners to get a 6000 for a really good price (and they got to keep their 5000 -- less the HD module). Windows of opportunity don't stay open all the time (or for very long). You have to evaluate the situation and take the opportunities as they come by or you have to say, "Dang! I wish I had taken that <whatever> when it was available! Now I have to pay full price!" I know that some will disagree with this, but I think you'll find that the local electronics store won't keep "sales" going on forever -- they have to make their margins SOME way (and I think that Dish chose to market the module/upgrade so that they lost money in the beginning, but gambled that this would attract more customers and they would make their margins in the long run). Oh well! I _suspect_ that Dish will make an attractive upgrade path for current Model 5000 (WITH the HD module) owners because of the very nature of moving to 8PSK modulation which is impossible for the 5000. Current model 6000 owners _may_ be given another opportunity to get the 8PSK module for a reduced price, but I would not _expect_ (significant) discounts on the 921 when it comes out because the 921 is not required to get the new HD signals. I can HOPE this will be the case, but I don't _expect_ it. Just my two cents' worth! :)
Scott Greczkowski
02-11-03, 10:10 AM
Its not that we forget the perks that were given, I just think that $99 is too high a price to pay for a module which can only receive one channel (and you need to pay $95 a year to get that channel)
For $99 you can buy yourself a new 301 system (and some people have been getting 501's for that price!) I can't imagine that the price to produce the 8PSK module is anything close to $99.
Mike123abc
02-11-03, 10:35 AM
It was interesting on the tech chat they implied that the rest of the HDTV (HBO/Showtime/CBS) would be going 8PSK in the near future. Maybe they will be moved to 110 too and eliminate the 2nd dish for HDTV (maybe mirroring them on the wings for a while in QPSK).
Unfortunately, the price we pay for a product rarely can be equated to the cost to produce it. In today's world where EVERYBODY (it seems) is buying PC's, the price of hardware has plummeted and we get used to those SKINNY margins where companies like Dell <or whoever> get's by by producing GILLIONS of units making pennies on each unit. In the world of DBS (and HD DBS specifically), the economies of scale come back to haunt us. How many of the 8 million Dish subscribers will buy (or use) the 8PSK module? How much does (did) it cost Dish to change their firmware at the Uplink site and on the satellite to do the 8PSK modulation? During the initial phases (and we're still in those initial phases), they've got to recoup some of their costs. Economics 101 says you set the price at a point where supply and demand will meet and where you'll not price it so low that you'll lose money, nor price it so high that NOBODY would buy it. Hey! I'd LOVE to have the price lower! I'd LOVE to see more people get on the bandwagon of HD so that prices would drop. We're beginning to see that trend in the price of HDTVs, but they are still way above the comfort level of Joe and Jane SixPack. I guess that's the "price" we pay as early adopters of technology. Again, just my 2 cent's worth.
Is it possible Dish could sell the 921 by billing in installments? $1000 or more is quite a chunk of change. Maybe spread it out over a year or something like that.
Scott Greczkowski
02-11-03, 12:19 PM
Davhol, ,I hear what you are saying... but again $100 is a lot to pay for a module that only picks up one station (and that station itself costs $95 a year) If they had additional content available that the module receives then it would be a better buy.
Tuxedo,
I have been wondering the same thing, I am working hard to get my hands on a 921 as soon as possible. But I just had a baby so money is tight as well. :)
Scott,
From what I have heard right here on dbstalk.com, that wish may come true in the near future. 8PSK is "the wave of the future" for HD (maybe even for SD?) and we should be seeing more HD channels on the core birds. So then the problem that it is only good for just one channel will be past us. :)
DarrellP
02-11-03, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Tuxedo
Is it possible Dish could sell the 921 by billing in installments? $1000 or more is quite a chunk of change. Maybe spread it out over a year or something like that.
It's called a credit card. :D
Jacob S
02-11-03, 01:15 PM
Charlie offered a one time deal last year, he said he was offering this deal until the end of the month as if he should not have said it but did. I forget what that deal was then.
There will not be many buying this adaptor until they bring more channels up in which they can use this adaptor on. They know this therefore will have to make a change to get more subscribers. Who wants to pay that much for just one channel anyways? I suppose they figure if the customer is willing to spend that much for an HD tv and receiver that they have enough for the adaptor and the channel in which will bring out the most out of their investment.
Scott Greczkowski
02-11-03, 05:09 PM
Over at AVSForums they seem to be confirming our finding which we first posted here yesterday. :)
I can't wait for HDNet!
James_F
02-11-03, 05:46 PM
Yea, gotta love that NHL game tonight in HD....
raj2001
02-12-03, 08:00 AM
Oh by the way,
HDNET is also coming to cable:
http://www.hd.net/2003-prarchive/2003-02-04-01.html
Scott Greczkowski
02-12-03, 08:19 AM
The information I am hearing is that there are will be 3 HDNet Channels, at the moment I know there are two HDNet Channels, what is the third going to be and when will it be launched?
James_F
02-12-03, 09:44 AM
Scott, in an email from HDNet I got last year....
HDNet Sports, which will feature live and taped sporting events, with the goal of broadcasting 365 live events each year
Rang1995
02-12-03, 10:01 AM
I am pissed..i invested lots of $$ to get HDTV from dish at 61.5(only site i can see) use d* for everything else..now i will be screwed..i will have to go legal for them to do something about this..there must be others like me???
Scott Greczkowski
02-12-03, 10:27 AM
Rang, The services you have today you will have tommorow. Non one said anything about the signals on 61.5 going away.
All new services will be 8psk from 110.
Nothing illegal about that.
Does anyone know if E* will charge a monthly fee for HDNET? Or will they provide it free of charge like D* does? If they charge for HDNET, I will seriously consider switching to D* and getting the HDTV Tivo.
Mark Lamutt
02-12-03, 10:44 AM
Jason,
Most likely Dish will include HDNet in a HD-only package of channels, and charge for the package.
I'd also suspect (from what I've heard from various reliable sources) that HDNet won't be a free channel on DirecTV forever. Eventually, DirecTV will also put HDNet into a HD package and charge for the package.
James_F
02-12-03, 10:56 AM
That right Mark, as HDNet gets on more Cable systems, the need for HDNet to "give" its service to DirecTV goes away. I expect to pay for HDNet when they give us more channels...
Jacob S
02-12-03, 10:58 AM
I think if Dish chooses to charge for this channel that DirecTv will more than likely do the same. I think that it should be provided for free or another HD channel with some decent content on it to lure more people to buy the hardware so they have a more likely chance of selling more HD channels and to give those customers something to make up for their hardware purchase expense. This would also be a good idea for the regular grade channels most receive, to offer some decent channels to get some to buy the hardware to pick them up since its FTA then they would have that possibility of selling more channels in the future. This would lure more in that they would not have lured in before.
Rang1995
02-12-03, 11:04 AM
"Rang, The services you have today you will have tommorow. Non one said anything about the signals on 61.5 going away.
All new services will be 8psk from 110.
Nothing illegal about that.
" I know that i am just pissed because of my situation..i thought i was safe for future HDTV just spoke to someone pretty high up the chain there..was told 110 @32 deg elevation,for me,then 119 @24 deg ask for a 500 upgrade(in reverse) But unless i put up a big pole or cut down beautiful trees(both leading to a divorce :)) i am as i said screwed for these NEW stations:mad: :mad:
James_F
02-12-03, 11:10 AM
Where does it say you are entitled to new stations? I'd say all of are are really lucky that they can offer HD on DBS at all...
BobMurdoch
02-12-03, 02:07 PM
If this is the case WHY haven't they shifted around the channels to increase picture quality in the meantime? I've STILL been seeing a lot of compression affecting picture quality (especially with shows with extreme closeups where human heads leave vapor trails as they move slightly within the frame.)
Mark Lamutt
02-12-03, 03:12 PM
Well, first of all, E*6 just got to the 110 location not too long ago. And, the channel shifting started last night. Several people are reporting stronger signal strength on several of the 110 transponders.
DarrellP
02-12-03, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by BobMurdoch
I've STILL been seeing a lot of compression affecting picture quality (especially with shows with extreme closeups where human heads leave vapor trails as they move slightly within the frame.)
Unfortunately, this won't help spotbeams, which are becoming way to packed with locals these days. On a recent episode of Enterprise, T'pol was walking down a dimly lit corridor and her eyeballs were literally up on her forehead. I had to back up and frame-by-frame advance it on the PVR, I couldn't believe what I saw. :eek:
Scott, speaking of HD,have you heard any thing on the 211, as far as when it if at all is coming. I emailed Dish after the tech chat with a question on the 921 firewire, beings that topic did not have much time on it and on the 921. Surprisingly I got a reply this pm. I found out that the 921 is not going to support 1394 HAVi CP. This surprised me and make me think being a Mits owner a 211, which I had understood was a 1394 model, and a hard drive from Mits down the hopefully short road will be my best bet.
Personally I think that Directv and dish need to share there bandwidth for HD. I know that the techical problems for Sdtv are to big, but It would be a wise move by both companies to say each chip in 3 transponders at 110 for HDTV in 8PSK, it would be a great way to counter the cable hdtv threat.
Jacob S
02-15-03, 05:03 PM
CableVisions ''Rainbow'' service that they are launching will have like 20 HD channels according to the brochure, in which Direct and Dish would have a hard time putting up that many without losing a LOT of transponder space.
regarding "raindow" I noticed in the brochure it refered to many of ther services as only "widescreen" as opposed to hdtv--translation: 480p
Cyclone
02-15-03, 09:52 PM
I don't think that there are 20 HD channels out there yet. Unless they have a bunch of HD PPV stations.
Jacob S
02-15-03, 11:41 PM
They had a list of HD channels in a brochure. They have a new compression scheme to pack more channels into the stream and spotbeams and is supposed to be the most powerful satellite to be launched to date.
Jacob S said... "Charlie offered a one time deal last year, he said he was offering this deal until the end of the month as if he should not have said it but did. I forget what that deal was then."
Well, that was certainly helpful. :rolleyes:
Rang1995
02-16-03, 10:04 AM
does anyone have a link to the cablevision brochure????
Mike123abc
02-16-03, 10:48 AM
Here is a presentation: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6513292881
Here is a prototype brochure:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6513291851
Please note this is a "prototype". There is no indication of whether or not they could actually get all these stations, or if any of these stations would ever be launched.
Note they say 16 HDTV channel if the merger does not go through.
do you this will ever fly?
Scott Greczkowski
02-16-03, 08:10 PM
No I do not see the Cablevision service flying, in order to have the service they needed Dish Network to turn over some transponder space to them. They thought that if the merger went through the FCC would give them space from 61.5.
Without the space from Dish their service will not fly.
Adam Richey
02-16-03, 10:44 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if Cablevision Rainbow DBS was bought up by Dish Network? They have one strike with their failed merger attempt with DirecTV. Imagine the high definition channels available if they bought Rainbow DBS. That would be a dream. :)
Rang1995
02-17-03, 08:20 AM
sure look great by rrading their presentations..wish someone would launch,i am sure all us HDTV people would switch or at least use them in conjunction with something else..The bird must be almost finished or built..so someone ....use it....
ericlhyman
02-17-03, 05:30 PM
Any news about a change in the location of HBO and Shotime to 110? What are the other two HD stations being tested besides Discovery?
Jacob S
02-22-03, 01:24 PM
I could not get either of those links to work.
Mike123abc
02-22-03, 05:01 PM
I am not sure why those links are not working atm, they came off this page: http://www.fcc.gov/transaction/echostar-directv-exparte.html
Search the page for rainbow and you will see the links but they do not work on the page either. (9/12/02 is the channel line up and 9/24/02 is the slide show presentation).
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