Tech Forum Summary 3-10-03

[BobaBird]

Technical Forum
Feb 10, 2003

Hosts are Mark Jackson, Sr VP E* Technology Corp and Dave Kummer, VP Engineering.

AGENDA PVR501/508, 721 Features DISH Interactive HD Programming Enhanced HD (8PSK) Plasma Screens Giveaway Q&APhone: 1-888-621-2078. E-mail: Techforum@Dishnetwork.com.
Technical questions only, please.

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PVR501/508 Features Slow-Motion Frame Advance Sort timers by name or time Record options pop-up for Record to End, Record past End, Record Weekly, Record until manual stopPVR721 Features Slow-Motion (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10314) Frame Advance Front A/V jacks on Ch 0 Change channel while recording without having to use PIP Sort recorded events Sort timersNew 721 features coming in March Weather New option on the record pop-up to record whole program without having to rewindThe receiver has to be in stand-by mode to get updates. The New Features video will only be received if your receiver is in stand-by, has at least 30 minutes free space, and has no conflicting timers.

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The EZ Remote is available only through dealers, MSRP ~$19.

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DISH Home

Gateway to entertainment and information such as customer service, weather, sports, horoscope and lottery results.
Games are $4.99/month for all, rotated weekly, 1 game always free.
Movie listings available in cities with locals.
Access to Dish Home is via channel 100 or the dish button on some remotes.
The 721's weather feature will be a Linux application, not OpenTV.

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CES, PVR921, TU-PVR9000

Short video showing the Echostar booth at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas including glimpses of the Echostar PVR921 and JVC TU-PVR9000.

The PVR921 will be available this spring, no price set yet but, if you have to ask ...

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Q&A

Roger: Huntsville locals?
A: Hopefully in March. Our 2nd city in AL, will share the Birmingham spot beam.

Joe: Has an SW64, planning to add a 921.
A: Split each LNB output to feed a 2nd SW64. The "B" ports on the 2nd SW64 will also each need a load feed. Or could convert to DishPro and chain 2 DP34s if all receivers are DishPro models.

Many: Caller ID problems
A: Must subscribe, connect the phone line, enable Caller ID on the setup menu, ground receiver. The distinctive ring problem is being looked into with the modem manufacturer.

Chris: Any 6000 to 921 upgrade offer?
A: Working on something for very old equipment like the 2000.

Jack: Has 4000, program info is so slow it's useless
A: Have been working on the problem 4-6 months, have re-ordered the way we get the guide data. The compressed guide caused a problem on one receiver model and was taken down. Will be relaunched on Wednesday (2/12), uses 2:1 compression. The 508 is getting a forced upgrade this week for it. The guide got large because of must carry (http://ekb.dbstalk.com/19#MC) stations as well as adding more cities. Working on a few more tricks that may work only on some receivers, should be ready by summer. The idea to split the guide into national and local channels is being looked at for farther down the road.

Bob: Discrete power codes for 721?
A: Coming in the March upgrade.

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Giveaway
Prize: Model 6000 with 8VSB and 8PSK modules.
Question: Where is the name Linux derived from?

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HD Programming

Currently have Discovery HD, PPV, Showtime, HBO, Demo, CBS-East, CBS-West.
Must qualify for CBS (http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/locals/cbshd/index.shtml). Available in markets with a CBS-owned affiliate: Austin, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis, New York City, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Green Bay.

Will be changing the modulation scheme to 8PSK to be able to send more HD channels across each transponder.

Enhanced HD module Video walks through installing the module Blooper: video uses stock footage of a Dish500 with Twin for adding 61.5 or 148 $99 + S&H Call 1-(800)-220-DISH to order the 8PSK module and Discovery HD The 6000 must have software P775 or newer to utilize the module---------------

Plasma screen TV, guest Bob Luly

Starts off with a series of slides explaining image digitization, bandwidth requirements, and how a picture is created.

Advantages Flat, thin, lightweight (portable?) High resolution with high contrast ratio High color accuracy and high brightness No scan lines or flicker Uniform high screen brightness Wide viewing angle with reduced glare 16x9 widescreen Slim, space-saving design Universal display for NTSC, PAL, SECAM, composite, RGB, etc Best choice for videoconferencing Built-in line-doubling electronics Really fast turn on and off of pixels Immunity from magnetic fields (don't need shielded speakers) Easy to install - wall, ceiling, cabinet or table. Can be motorized or hidden. High resolution - up to 1366X768p High quality scaling circuits provide all common TV and computer resolutions like 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, etc No convergence requiredDisadvantages Relative high cost High power consumption, around 500 Watts (most TVs are under 200) Requires a fan to remove heat As with others, minimum viewing distance depends on program material 16x9 doesn't match 4x3 format requiring some sort of conversion Relatively large dot-pitch requiring expensive, large screen size to fit enough pixels for high resolution Altitude sensitive (above 7-8000 feet the power supply gets noisy and the gas expands) Shorter life than a direct view set but longer than front projectorsShows some slides explaining how a plasma screen works. 50" and larger screens have enough square pixels (1366X768p) to cross convert the HDTV 1920X1080i signals.

Bottom line Since pictures come in many sizes and formats, it will be necessary to buy the TV with the highest resolution and the best picture processor, not just the highest resolution number. A high-quality signal like HDTV can look GREAT on 2 TVs side-by-side. But a low-quality source, like a poor VHS tape, can look terrible on one set and be acceptable on the other due to noise improvement circuits. Viewing a wide range of content (satellite, HDTV, DVD, off-air, low-quality VHS, etc) on different TVs, before buying, is a MUST!Who makes what?
There are currently only 4 screen manufacturers. Other brands buy their screens from these 4 but use their own electronics. NEC, Panasonic, Pioneer make their own screens Fujitsu and Hitachi joint manufacture theirs Sony and Phillips use Fujitsu/Hitachi RCA/Thompson, Marantz use NEC Toshiba uses Pioneer Viewsonic uses Pioneer and Hitachi Runco uses Pioneer and NEC Sharp uses Pioneer---------------

Giveaway
Winner: David Scheck. Answer: UNIX type operation system from Linus Torvalls.

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Q&A

John: DISH Home on the 6000?
A: No plans to add OpenTV.

Many: Software issues on the 7100/7200 DISHPlayer
A (Dan Minnick, VP Software): Dependent on Microsoft, release in March to fix audio and video lockups and add the Echostar 9-day guide.

E-mail: Is Utah on a spot beam? How about New Orleans?
A (Eric Sahl, Dir Programming): SLC locals are on a spot, mostly covers the state except possibly the southern corners. There are 6 markets available on CONUS beams with the RV exemption. We were in discussions with New Orleans 2 years ago and couldn't reach a retransmission agreement so we moved on.

John: 721 is awesome. Will search be able to work by date and time like on the DP?
A (Dan Minnick): No plans to add that.

Jeffrey: Does the 921 have Firewire, Ethernet, DVI?
A: Will have DVI HDCP. Also will have 1394 likely for the D-VHS deck but they may come up with another name for it so people won't think they can hook up just any 1394-capable device such as external drives and camcorders.

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Next Charlie Chat is Mon Mar 10, 9:00pm Eastern

[Marcus S]

No OpenTV for the 6000 is E*'s death wish. Replacement 921 @ $900 will not fly.

[dishrich]

Originally posted by BobaBird
There are 6 markets available on CONUS beams with the RV exemption.

Try FIVE guys (E*, not Boba) - they STOPPED offering Dallas & it's being moved to spots:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11717

[Ken_F]

OpenTV was only considered a possibility for the 6000 a few months before the release; even at time of release, they said it was possible, but they could make no guarantee. Not long after release, they said OpenTV was unlikely, but still possible. And they've been saying for more than a year now that OpenTV is not coming for that unit.

OpenTV for the 6000 at this point would just be a waste of resources, imo. It is quickly becoming a dated receiver, particularly with the 921 on the horizon. The real issue: the 6000 differs so much from existing SD receivers and upcoming HD units that a software port for the 6000 would not be usable on any other device, and as such, is not a wise investment of limited engineering resources. Effort is better spent on software for receivers like the 721, much of which can be shared with the 921.

[Mike123abc]

I do not believe the 6000 is even being manufactured any more. Its days are numbered. (production supposedly stopped June 30 last year because it did not do required closed captioning on HDTV).

[MikeW]

BobaBird-Great Post!!! Thanks.

[Steve Mehs]

The second half of the chat was BORING! Almost as bad as How To Buy a TV. It was funny watching them squeeze all those questions in during the final five minutes.

[hikerak]

Jack: Has 4000, program info is so slow it's useless
A: Have been working on the problem 4-6 months, have re-ordered the way we get the guide data. The compressed guide caused a problem on one receiver model and was taken down. Will be relaunched on Wednesday (2/12), uses 2:1 compression.:shrug: The 508 is getting a forced upgrade this week for it. :shrug: The guide got large because of must carry stations as well as adding more cities. Working on a few more tricks that may work only on some receivers, should be ready by summer. The idea to split the guide into national and local channels is being looked at for farther down the road.

:eek: What does this mean for the 508? Is the forced upgrade only for the guide? Will there be new features? My 508 works great I hope it contnues to...

[RAD]

Mark said: "Will be changing the modulation scheme to 8PSK to be able to send more HD channels across each transponder."

OK, I sent in an e-mail but no response, does this mean that at a future date all Dish6000's will need the 8PSK because all the non Discovery-HD channels will be switched to 8PSK? I wish they were a bit clearer on this point.

[Chris Blount]

Excellent recap! Thanks BobaBird!

[Tomsoundman]

Yeah, good job.

My favorite quote was from Mr. Luly. He was talking about stretching image from square to 16x9 and he said "stretch it like a hot dog"

That struck me funny because the Chat as a whole was so boring, I almost fell asleep.

[Scott Greczkowski]

The chat was good til Bill Nye The Science Guy (To the Extreme) came on. :)

They should have called last nights Tech Chat, "The Really Technical, Tech Chat"

After watching last nights show, I think I now qualify for a PHD or something. :)

Last nights tech chat also has me believe that the marketing department at Echostar uses drugs.

Here they are changing HD Compression formats so they can offer more service (more likely PAY services) and they want you to pay for it. It would not be bad if the 8psk module worked with more then one channel, but at the moment to pay $100 for a module so you can watch a TV channel which itself costs $95 a year to watch is CRAZY!

I think that if Dish wants to move to this technology they should offer it to customers at a discount price (I understnad that it cost them money to make) but this new module does nothing for me, the HD output still looks the same, its not like it makes the HD look better, the point of this entire upgrade is so Dish can compress and carry more HD channels.

I found it funny that they are VERY confident that more HD channels are coming SOON yet they did not announce anything last night (which is HDNet and ESPN-HD as Mark Lamutt reported yesterday) It was wild to see their confidence that they are adding channels (and know what the channels are) without them actually mentioning the channels. :)

I give the guys Credit for taking a Dishplayer question, I didn't think they would.

I found there answer that they would soon have an upgrade path available for those with older receivers, I would hope they would have an upgrade path available soon for Dishplayer owners, and end this mess known as the Dishplayer once and for all.

And Dan M. it was good seeing you get some TV time last night. :D

Good Recap Boba!

[Mark Lamutt]

Thanks for the post Bobabird! Excellent recap.

[Randy_B]

That would be welcome news for us old 2000 owners!!!

[JayeDVXIII]

I was mad, I called into the tech chat and sat on hold for 35 minutes and wasn't even answered!! It seems to me that they were less interested in taking calls with customer questions and instead spent 25 minutes gabbing about Plasma TV (as though any of us can afford to put down the same cost as a new car for this).

This was the first time I ever saw a chat and was a little irritated that at the very end, the show ended abruptly while the fat man with white hair was talking and that annoying b*tch Marnie came back on with the stupid 24x7 remote help channel!!! is this show on some type of hurried time constraint? wow!!?? It's their channel..jeez...do they have to be so SCIENTIFIC about how much time can be spent on the show?

:-)

[Scott Greczkowski]

I don't think the guy talking about the Plasma TV's was supposed to talk so long, I hear Mark Jackson try stopping him a few times.

I felt like there was going to be a test at the end. :D

[Richard King]

The plasma guy was too into the numbers and not the generics of plasma operation. He should have done a better comparison between plasma and other forms of televisions and left it at that. I used to do the occasional seminar on professional audio (microphones, tape machines, digital audio signal processors, etc.) and the temptation is always there to go overboard with the technical specifications and not cover real world uses enough. I think this is what this person did last night.

Overall, mostly because of the plasma discussion, I thought this had to be toward the lower end of the scale of past tech forums.

[firephoto]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
Last nights tech chat also has me believe that the marketing department at Echostar uses drugs.

Dude! You're gettin a job at Echostar? :lol:


I loved the part where they took the 16 bit RGB image and averaged ALL The pixels to ONE. It came out to sort of a dull red clay colored block. :rolleyes:

[MAllen]

BobaBird,

Thank you, Thank you!! I missed the chat and with the EXCELLENT recap that you gave, I did not miss ANYTHING. Thanks again.

[Jacob S]

Thats funny considering the Dell dude got caught with drugs.

[Bill D]

BobaBird,
thanks, glad to read I didn't miss anything. I think DBSTALK, has more info then these tech chats. Now if I can just find the plasma Tv discussion forum :)

[tampa8]

Originally posted by dishrich


Try FIVE guys (E*, not Boba) - they STOPPED offering Dallas & it's being moved to spots:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11717

I know this was reported on this forum, (I had forgot about it) but at this time Dish does still offer it - I just switched from Atlanta Fox to Dallas Fox with no problem. (Wife wanted news from Dallas her hometown)

[Marcus S]

Many: Caller ID problems
A: Must subscribe, connect the phone line, enable Caller ID on the setup menu, ground receiver. The distinctive ring problem is being looked into with the modem manufacturer.

It's only taken an act of god for E* to acknowledge this bug.

[Marcus S]

Originally posted by Mike123abc
I do not believe the 6000 is even being manufactured any more. Its days are numbered. (production supposedly stopped June 30 last year because it did not do required closed captioning on HDTV).

Mike I believe the discontinue date is set for June 30 this year or at least that is what is trickling out to retailers. No official annoucement, I suspect until the 921 ships. Also consider, E* is still under contract to supply them to ExpressVue. Several fear this will put HDTV out of reach for many at least until the 6000 replacement is delivered, next year.

[Darkman]

That's Express Vu :)

[Marcus S]

and we have nothing better to do than correct typo's?

[Darkman]

Nope..
Typos are OK..i do not care about typos...
So if it was a typo - then no prob..
But in case you or some1 else didn't know - just made it clear..
End of story :)
Sorry if offended you or any1, etc....

[BobMurdoch]

Dude, You're gettin' a CELL!

[DarrellP]

Originally posted by Bill D
BobaBird,
thanks, glad to read I didn't miss anything. I think DBSTALK, has more info then these tech chats. Now if I can just find the plasma Tv discussion forum :)
It's over here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=40).

[Darkman]

Originally posted by BobMurdoch
Dude, You're gettin' a CELL!

Huh? :)
Who were you talking to?
and was that a DELL joke? :)

[Marcus S]

The Dell dude was arrested for pot possession.. humm..

[Darkman]

hehe - what does it have to do with Tech Chat thread? :)

Where is the Link? -- Tech - Dell - Cell? - Ah - i see :)
Still...

[Kagato]

I was kind'a hoping to hear something about the ill fated 5000 this time. I'm not taking a $700+ loss on the 5000 + mod with out making some serious noise.

[Mike123abc]

It looked even worse for the 5000... They implied they would eventually turn the other feeds (hbo/showtime/cbs) to 8PSK.

[Ken_F]

The 5000 model is what, five years old now? Aside from it's ability to be mated with box for D-VHS recording, it's an obsolete receiver. Hell, I sold mine last year for $100 + $150 for the modulator. I see they go on Ebay for $50 (used) to $130 (new).

[Jacob S]

They should make these receivers upgradable though like I have said all along, particularly to these receivers that are high priced.

I thought the segment on the digital and HD tv's and how they work and what to look for when you buy one of those tv's was a very interesting segment and very knowledgable. I think it is important for people to understand what to shop for and how things work for these tv's if they are going to be spending thousands on them.

[normang]

> No OpenTV for the 6000 is E*'s death wish. Replacement 921 @ $900 will not fly.

Lets divert... Who REALLY uses open TV features daily? I check the weather about once month on my 501, maybe.. Otherwise who really cares?

I don't miss this feature on my 6000 at all. and if the 921 has it, I'll check the weather once in a while..

my two cents...

[HTguy]

Originally posted by Mike123abc
... They implied they would eventually turn the other feeds (hbo/showtime/cbs) to 8PSK.
Well, I, for one, did not infer that. And I was paying close attention to see if there would be a hint that current QPSK HDs would change.

So I think the deal is still that all new HD channels will be 8PSK (which is what they implied when DHDT came on.)

But don't quote me! ;)

[Mike123abc]

Well it is hard to tell exactly but here is the quote:

So, we plan to offer you a lot more programming in the future in regards to high definition, but to do this and to offer you this expanded service of high definition we are going to have to change our modulation scheme or how we actually broadcast down to your set top boxes we are going to go to a standard called 8PSK, but to do that on some of your boxes, people who have earlier model 6000 today are going to have to upgrade.

We have already started to migrate some of our programming like the high definition Discovery is broadcast both ways, pretty soon will only be in the 8PSK way and you will have to upgrade your set top box with this module the 8PSK module. And we are going to roll a quick video to show you how do do that...

So, that is where I got that they will migrate more when they say we have already started migration... No, it did not say they were going to exactly, but it did not exactly say they would not either. They would get a bunch of transponders back if they did, they might view that as more valuable than those that have 5000 units.

[Jacob S]

They are coming out with a 221 receiver in which has a HD tuner in it.

[wmayo]

Ya know, there are some of us out here that have just BOUGHT a 6000, only to see it as instant obsolete technology, etc.
They could really redeem themselves if they would do something "special" for the 6000 folk ...
Like a $500 or less upgrade. Dreamin' I guess.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Originally posted by Mike123abc
We have already started to migrate some of our programming like the high definition Discovery is broadcast both ways, pretty soon will only be in the 8PSK way and you will have to upgrade your set top box with this module the 8PSK module. And we are going to roll a quick video to show you how do do that...

I heard this the other night and the first thing I said was HUH?!

What is BOTH WAYS?

Except for the time they had Discovery HD in Free Preview from 6pm to 6 am on the HD Demo Channel in 8VSB, Discovery HD has always been 8PSK format.

It is ONLY available in 8PSK now as far as I know.

I thought that statement was kind of confusing.

Of course they could not tell you why they want you to get a 8PSK module but we can, ESPN-HD and HDNet. :)

The 8PSK module was actually the only product they pushed on the Tech Chat.

[Jacob S]

They want to get rid of their older models that they have in stock first before coming out with their new model because THEY do not want to lose any money, they want to put it on us. They should at least give the customers a discount on the older hardware.

[Cyclone]

I just Bought a 6000 and I don't see how it will be obsolete. OpenTV is not important to me. Hell, I'll use my web browser to check my bill, check news & weather. If I really wanted to have the latest HD tech, I knew enough that I would have to wait until later this year to get it. I made the intentional decision not to wait and to start enjoy HD now.

I don't blame anyone else for my decison. Its part of being grown up.

[Jacob S]

Its hard to tell when the 221 will be out and how long it would be delayed, plus the 921 is going to be a lot more expensive than what the 6000 is now. They do have a place to upgrade on the back of them but I do not know if the new 6000's they are selling right now come with that 8PSK module. How much do the 6000's go for anyways? I know the modules are $99. I bet the 221 will come wit hthe 8PSK module built in.

[Bill D]

I don't have any old equipment (except a 2700, in a box) But I would think that Dish should have a receiver upgarde path, it would benefit the customer and eventually help get all of the older receivers out of the mix, in which case they wouldn't have to support them anymore..

[Jacob S]

They are going to have a program to upgrade those with older receivers to a newer one but I think it will be to upgrade those with the cheaper older receivers, not the expensive ones, because they will not want to give too much credit for the older receivers.

[davhol]

People with model 6000 receivers will NOT be obsolete. The 8PSK module is what makes that receiver "current." Granted, it's user interface isn't as slick as what one might want, but it does DO the job of bringing Dish's HD (and SD) programming to your TV. The only receivers that will be "obsolete" are ones like the model 5000 which can not and will not be able to decode the 8PSK modulation. I would think that Dish will have another opportunity given to these folks to upgrate their equipment to something that is not obsolete. I can't say whether that will be to the model 6000 (with 8PSK and not necessarily 8VSB) or directly to a 921 (or to another HD receiver- i.e. non-PVR). DISH won't abandon you, but you may not get the upgrade ride (BIG discount) to the top of the line receiver either -- but I suspect they will give you an upgrade path.

[Jacob S]

I bet they give a minimum no matter what receiver you have and perhaps give you just a little more for particular receivers in which they may be able to use for something or to refurbish to get more money out of for replacements for customers.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by Jacob S
...I do not know if the new 6000's they are selling right now come with that 8PSK module. How much do the 6000's go for anyways?
6000 systems have been shipping with the 8PSK module factory installed for several months now. In fact, there's a new model # to show that it has the module pre-installed: 6000u.

Complete systems (#6023) with both dishes, LNBFs & switches are $699 for new customers. Stand-alone rcvrs for new custs or existing custs adding on to their acct are $499. Of course, existing Dish500 custs who don't already have the 2nd dish will have to buy & install one unless they subscribe to locals.

[Jacob S]

The 221's when they come out will probably be the same price or cheaper. Has there ever been a price drop with the 6000 standalone or has it always been the same?

[Marcus S]

It depends on how you look at E* history. There is still no 4900 equivalent, you can pay less and get fewer features with a 301 or pay more and get the closest replacement 508. Considerations for existing or new potential HD subs. $900 921 $499 6000. I have to believe the 221 will not ship until next year and it has been E*'s long standing policy to discontinue existing products before it's replacement ships.

Though I don't believe any of the *D HD receivers offer Wink, they do offer the nicer EPG graphics and transparent EPG (PIP like) starting at $549. If the 6000 is discontinued or does not get at least an EPG face lift with PIP, I can see *D filling in the gap until E* delivers the 221. Since the 221 is suppose to have OpenTV and the competition does not, it could potentially sell for $599. An assumption on my part.

Another consideration which E* keeps forgetting, is the more the consumer is willing to spend on equipment, the more closely they will compare features of the equipment and compare programming cost for the experience. Like the 5000 and 6000, how many features will again be implied and never delivered on the 221 & 921.

Charlie Quote #75. "I promised nothing and have delivered it, in abundance!".

Three blind E* men and the elephant that sat on them.

[HTguy]

Complete systems (#6023) with both dishes, LNBFs & switches are $699 for new customers.
:blush:

Well, I forgot to mention but I'm sure most board members will realize that new customers don't really pay the $699 for a 6023 system. Depending on the promotion, they will save at least $149 on the system; more typically 199-204 with the inclusion of a 2nd rcvr. Also, if they can get locals from DISH & choose to subscibe to them they can get the 2nd dish free & save another $100.

[Kagato]

I take exception to the whole "you're STB is five years old, get over it" argument. We're not talking about computers, we're talking about a licensed and regulated entity that provides DBS service. The way I see it at no time did Dish make statements that disclosed or even implied the longevity of HD technology in the 5000 series may be that short. In fact they did the opposite when in their HD Tech FAQ they stated that it was E*'s position to mearly pass the HD content down the line with no alteration.

That being said, I'm not irked at Dish. I still have the features I still have HD-HBO and HD-PPV. But the minute they pull the plug I expect some $$$.

[Marcus S]

Kagato, a few issues coming up. E* never delivered free 8PSK mods to existing 6000 owners and 5000 owners have yet to be offered a 6000 w/8PSK mod upgrade... -unless- you where willing to sign up for Discovery HD annual. Subs who do not want Discovery HD, but currently have HBO-HD, SHO-HD, and CBS-HD will be, let's say, not pleased, if E* sits on their two thumbs again.

I had to go round and round with E* when the 5000 EPG became useless. They offered me a 501 for $199 with 5000 trade in. Instead of arguing with stupid people, I opted for the $75 4900 trade out, took the 5000 HDTV Adapter and sold it on Ebay for $700. I turned right around and bought a used 6000 for $399 and opted for Discovery HD annual @ $99 to get the 8PSK adapter. I also took a worthless 4000 sold it on Ebay for $75 and bought a used DP301 for $75, only out shipping.

If E* discontinues the 6000 before the 221 ships, I will have cash burning a hole in my pocket again because the 8PSK and 8VSB modules will be discontinued as well. Maybe I will be smart enough this time to buy a few extra mods and wait until the resell price again hits a premium. Timing is everything though.. I also not sure that the 221 will have an OTA HDTV tuner as TV manuf's have agreed to start shipping digital tuners, but are they HD capable tuners? :scratch:

Self Upgrade Help in a land of E* corp fools...

[Kagato]

I already have the 6000 for live HD. I considered selling the 5000+mod, but that 25Gigs of timeshifted LoTR-HD seems to be a compelling reason to keep it.

Still, I bought my 5000 in 2000, so three years then I'm SOL is unacceptable. Of course it hasn't happened yet, so I'm not worried. But when the smack down happens I highly recommend making a formal written complain to your State Attorny General Office.

[Mike123abc]

I am sure if they decide to change the rest of HDTV to 8PSK they will offer a trade in program for the 5000. No, I do not think it will be free, but it will have a charge to upgrade to the 221 or the 921. They will be able to argue that the 5000 can still recieve all the rest of the non HDTV programming, so it is not useless.

[Marcus S]

E* will wait to switch to 8PSK this fall, 6000 discontinued by June and offer the 921 for $599. (a savings of $300) ... if you sub to Discovery HD or 150 annual with Auto Pay, how could you refuse? :confused: This is the E* pattern, I doubt it's going to change. E* will have far more complaints this next round if they don't get it together, but then the trail of E* tears continues.

[BobMurdoch]

Don't hold your breath waiting for the 921 to hit $599. The hard drive alone in this puppy sells for $300. As most HD Tuners are still fairly expensive (the 6000 is relatively cheap by comparison) I would surprised to see the 921 drop below $899 (I'm guessing $999, but I hear rumors that $1200 will be the initial list price)

[Kagato]

I agree Mike123abc. Certainly the 5000 still works for a SD Reciever. I'd meet dish in the middle, 350 or so to buy back the modulator.

Hard Drives: I think this is where Dish figures they'll get thier money. With each lot the Hard Drives get cheaper and cheaper. Dish makes more and more money off the units. Last year the 120 Gig Drives were at $300, now they are less than half that.


Of course my biggest fear is that the trade in value that Dish is offering will be about equal to the price break the 921 will get a couple months into the roll out.l

[Ken_F]

I agree Mike123abc. Certainly the 5000 still works for a SD Reciever. I'd meet dish in the middle, 350 or so to buy back the modulator.You can't be serious...

The HDTV modulator was released October 1999. That's 40 months ago. Back in late 1999, the Dish 5000 receiver PLUS the modulator cost ~$400 from Dish Depot for new subscribers. The HDTV modulator, when purchased separately, cost $299 for existing subscribers. I remember, because I reserved mine with Dish Depot some time before that, and was #2 on their waiting list. Myself and Jerry G were among the first on the hometheater forums to get one.

The 5000 receiver and modulator were discontinued late spring 2000, almost three years ago. I remember thinking how lucky I was to have a modulator when they began to disappear from retailers in May 2000, less than 8 months after they had become available.

DISH has said for long time, even before the 8PSK module for the 6000 was announced, that the 5000 might not be able to receive future HDTV, due to restrictions from content providers (presumably that was just an excuse with 8PSK in development). Indeed, this was part of the news that came out of CES, back in 2001 (two years ago), or about 7 months after the 5000 8-VSB module was discontinued.

My opinion is this:

If DISH continues to offer the exisiting HDTV using QPSK at 61.5/148, then you have no valid complaint, because DISH will not be taking away anything away that you have now. If DISH does remove the existing QPSK HDTV from 61.5/148, then you will have a legitimate complaint, and would deserve the option for some rebate on the 6000--which DISH already gave you. Certainly, you would not deserve the full price of $299, because you got some use out of the modulator in the two years since it was discontinued.

But let us not forget, DISH offered an upgrade program for 5000 modulator users. On April 12, 2002 (10 months ago), DISH announced that HDTV customers could get a 6000 receiver with 8PSK module for only $249 when trading in their 5000 modulator and subscribing to a year of Discovery HDTV. Even when accounting for the $96 subscription to Discovery HDTV, that represents a $154 credit, or 51% of the original price for the modulator that was officially discontinued two years before (trade-in customers were allowed to keep their 5000 receiver). On April 12, 2002, it was also said that the 8PSK module would be needed for future HDTV from Dish Network.

[Jacob S]

I think it is a good point made that the price of the hard drives go down while Dish still charges the same rate for the receivers but at the same time they cannot change the price of the receivers all of the time because that would cause too much confusion. Dish does from time to time put larger hard drives into the receivers and offer them for the same price or cheaper. Just like the dishplayer where they went from a 7100 to a 7200 or from a 501 to a 508, and in each case the prices remained the same or dropped in price and with a hard drive twice the size as well. I know that there was a special promotional offer on the dishplayer at first then they went to retailer price later on. Dish just waits until there is enough advancement to put in a hard drive twice the size the last two times or at least increase the hard drive size enough to make it worth while changing it to that bigger hard drive.

[Mike123abc]

This mess is something that Dish just needs to end and just allow a trade out of the 5000 HD modules. They could end it by giving a $250 credit against the purchase of a new receiver in exchange for the module. The module was not on sale for a very long time so there should really be very few in circulation. Then the 5000 becomes a standard definition receiver that they can charge $5/month.

They could then get back a bunch of transponders, which have to be worth more than the buyback price of the modules. They should make it a permanent offer and just end the issue.

$250 looks like a lot to Dish, but they get some back because you buy a receiver which they have some mark up on and subscribe to channels they make money on also. Plus they get rid of an issue that should not exist to start with.

[Ken_F]

This mess is something that Dish just needs to end and just allow a trade out of the 5000 HD modules. They could end it by giving a $250 credit against the purchase of a new receiver in exchange for the module.They already offered a $250 credit, or $154 credit if you account for the required subscription to Discovery HDTV.

$250 looks like a lot to Dish, but they get some back because you buy a receiver which they have some mark up on and subscribe to channels they make money on also. Plus they get rid of an issue that should not exist to start with.Yes, $250 is a lot to DISH for a product that they sold at $299 and discontinued almost three years ago. I think you are asking too much.

It's very important to note that Echostar sells its receivers at a loss. These losses are incurred to acquire subscribers; they are part of the cost of doing business. Last year, Echostar spent $188 million to develop, support, and manufacturer satellite receivers and equipment. It took in revenue of $271 million from the sale of this equipment. However, as part of its $1 billion marketing budget, it spent more than $200 million on receiver and equipment subsidies. Quoting from their 2001 annual report:
As previously described, we generally subsidize the cost and installation of EchoStar receiver systems in order to attract new DISH Network subscribers. Our average subscriber acquisition costs were approximately $395 per new subscriber activation during the year ended December 31, 2001.
I have been personally told by those at Echostar that the 921 will cost them close to $1000 just to produce, and that figure does not account for the costs to develop and support its software in the future. When accounting for the cost of development, and the future cost of support, the 921 will probably sold at a loss to acquire and maintain subscribers--just like most of its other receivers. Over time, as component costs fall (like the 250Gb drive), perhaps DISH will be able to make up some of the difference.

[Jacob S]

Well if that is how much it costs to get a sub then about all of the cost is due to retailer commissions for the sale and installation, not the promotion and equipment hardware, so they must be making a profit on the hardware to make up for some of the cost because the cost for each sub should be greater than that if they are subsidizing equipment and coming up with promotions for the customer.

[Ken_F]

Well if that is how much it costs to get a sub then about all of the cost is due to retailer commissions for the sale and installation, not the promotion and equipment hardware, so they must be making a profit on the hardware to make up for some of the cost because the cost for each sub should be greater than that if they are subsidizing equipment and coming up with promotions for the customer.I don't understand what you are saying. The cost of $395 per new subscriber includes the subsidies on equipment sold to the customer, the retailer commissions, the rebates, the free installation, and the like. This figure has trended downward the past few years.

DISH does not recoup this cost of a new subscriber for three or more years, depending on the programming to which they subscribe. Obviously, when it can take four, five, or six years just to make the first dollar in profit on a new customer, customer retention becomes very very important for them to stay in business; but there is a limit on how much DISH will throw at any given customer to keep their business. This fact has led many to challenge the future viability of the DBS satellite business; this was also another key reason for the merger, as a single DBS provider could substantially reduce customer acquisition costs due to greater economies of scale (and less DBS competition).

More than 90% of all DISH revenue comes from programming. DISH Network reported a net loss of more than $210 million dollars last year, despite roughly $2,155,196,000 ($2.15 billion) in profits on programming. If it didn't cost DISH so much in equipment, installation, and marketing to obtain and retain customers, they would be making $$$$$.

[Mike123abc]

It is really hard to tell what Dish is doing financially. You cannot just go by the net income number. Dish has huge depreciation expenses from the early years. At the end of 01 they had a net loss of $215million but had depreciation of $278million. So, essentially they made $63million. For the reported first 3 quarters of this year they have made $47million after adding back in depreciation. Note they also paid a $68million dividend too to perferred shares, so that should also be counted as income this year.

Don't get me wrong, I think the $250 deal towards a 6000 was a good deal, but they had it for a very short period of time. I was thinking they should keep the deal longer.

[Jacob S]

The retailer commissions and promotions to the customer exceeds $395, just the retailer commissions, installation cost, and so forth is near this amount or exceeds this not counting the equipment costs for Dish if it costs them the msrp or more to make the product.

Dish is currently cutting commissions greatly in some cases. They are making it harder for the retailers.

[Curiouso]

Define "spotbeam" please. Also, why are there 3 different designations of my local channels, each with three different channel #'s, but they are the one same channel?

[Ken_F]

Curioso,

Define "spotbeam" please. Spotbeam refers to a separate beam from the satellite that serves only a specific region, rather than the entire country. Dish and DirecTV use a national (also called conus) beam to send the standard channels to everyone; in addition to that, the newest satellites are able to direct specific "spot beams" to different parts of the country. This allows them to reuse transponders to gain more effective bandwidth.

You can think of it in terms of a flash light. For standard programming (TOP100, HBO, etc), the satellites use a very large beam that everyone can see; for locals, they use much smaller beams pointed in different directions that only certain areas of the country can see. Because none of the smaller beams interfere or cross, they can send different programming to different regions using the same bandwidth.

For example, DISH might use 17 of their 21 licensed transponder frequencies for standard programming using the national / conus beam. Then they can reuse their remaining four licensed transponders over and over again to different parts of the country using spot beams. They can position a four transponder beam over LA, another over New York, another over Dallas, etc; the beams are sufficiently large such that they can generally be placed to cover several adjacent markets (cities). This gives them bandwidth to serve many markets with their own locals.

Also, why are there 3 different designations of my local channels, each with three different channel #'s, but they are the one same channel?Do you mean the local broadcast channels from the antenna on the 6000 receiver? If so, then your local station is probably broadcasting subchannels. With digital, broadcasters can choose to broadcast a single channel using all their bandwidth, or they can divide that bandwidth (reducing quality) among several channels. If there are some subchannels you want to remove, you can do so through the local channel setup on the 6000.

[Cyclone]

Originally posted by Curiouso
Also, why are there 3 different designations of my local channels, each with three different channel #'s, but they are the one same channel?

I don't think that he means 6000 OTA channels. I think that he means the 700, 8000, and local number. This has to do with History more than technology.

Originally, all of the local channels where in the 700 - 800 range. I'll use channel 700 (WJLA Washington DC) as my example. That was one of the original local channels offered by Dish Network. Then the "must carry law" went info efffect. This caused Dish to have to carry all of the Washtington Stations. But there wasn't enough room in the 700-800 range for all of the new channels. So they duplicated them in the 8000 range. So now WJLA was both Channel 700 and Channel 8070. I guess that Dish did not want to get rid of the 700 since someone might have gotten used to it.

Then they started to remap these local channels to the their Local numbers via OpenTV. This was pretty cool. Now WJLA was not only Channel 700 & 8070. But it was also channel 7 on the guide. So now it is listed 3 times with different channel numbers. I have read that dish is begining to remove the 700-800 range of channel assignments.

Oh. and since the 6000 has a OTA channel tuner that assigns OTA channels to 2 - 99, I don't expect that you will see the 8000 range go away anytime soon.

Incase you are wondering. Dish is not broadcasting the same channel 3 times using 3x the satellite bandwidth. They mearly broadcast it once on a single transponder, and then program your receiver to show that one broadcast on any of the 3 channels on your receiver.

Consult the http://www.dishchannelchart.com for details.

[Kagato]

Couple things to Ken_F.

MSRP for the mod was 349. I didn't know about DishDepot in early 2000.

What's your source on dish indicating "5000 might not be able to receive future HDTV"? I combed the dish web site at that time. Marketing, Tech Forums, Faqs. I didn't see anything. In fact the faqs pretty much said the opposite. If you can show that Dish actually put some due dilligence into informing presales customers that the 5000+mod was going to be a short life product I'll drop it.

I do agree that until Dish drops HBO, CBS and Showtime in HD that there isn't much action I would take.

As far as the trade in. Mixed bag. The 6000 doesn't address time shifting. So what good is it? You can pay for the right to a slightly newer STB that has less functionality? Plus you get locked into a year of an overpriced HD channel? Great, sign me up for auto pay too!

Restating: At the moment I have no opinion for against Dish. They haven't made an offer to the 5000 people yet. But I'm certainly not going to ignore comments indicating that I shouldn't complain if I have to take a $700 loss on equipment.

I point to "The Video Guide" as an example in these cases. It was a GUI Guide device for Cable and OTA back in the 90's. It had a monthly service fee, and the actual device was around $100. Two years later the service was discontinued. Everyone who bought one could send in the unit for a full refund. It's just an ethical way of doing business with out any questions of committing interstate fraud by overselling the product and service.

[Ken_F]

MSRP for the mod was 349. Sorry, but you are incorrect. You might want to check your source, because the modulator was announced at $299; you could order it directly from DISH at this price. In early 2001, the MSRP on the 5000 receiver only was $349, so perhaps you are confusing the two. And if you could get both together online for $400 if you agreed to a yearly programming commitment. You can search the Internet or AVSForum archives to verify both these figures, if you want.

What's your source on dish indicating "5000 might not be able to receive future HDTV"? I combed the dish web site at that time. Marketing, Tech Forums, Faqs. I didn't see anything. In fact the faqs pretty much said the opposite. If you can show that Dish actually put some due dilligence into informing presales customers that the 5000+mod was going to be a short life product I'll drop it.As I indicated in my post, that is what Dish was telling people at CES in January 2001, which coincidently is also when they announced the 6000 receiver. By that time, the modulator had long been discontinued, although you could still find one if you were willing to pay extra. If you were following various forums around this timeframe, you know all this, seeing that I reported some of it. And I am fairly certain that DISH mentioned as much on later technical chats, but I have no record of that. But once again, after the 5000 and its modulator were discontinued, and no longer sold by Dish, those who sought them on ebay, or through retailers at a price premium, took their own chances to some extent.

As far as the trade in. Mixed bag. The 6000 doesn't address time shifting. So what good is it? You can pay for the right to a slightly newer STB that has less functionality? Plus you get locked into a year of an overpriced HD channel? Great, sign me up for auto pay too!Discovery is a great channel. And you weren't forced to subscribe to it. You could have traded in your modulator for the 6000 at $299 without a Discovery subscription, effectively a $200 credit. I do agree that DISH offered this rebate for too short a time, and should do so again, particularly IF they intend to remove current QPSK HDTV.

The 6000 obviously offers a good deal more functionality than the 5000 module, which did not include a MP@HL decoder. I would also note that the 8VSB modulator wasn't intended to address time shifting. DISH has no such intent when they designed the product as an interim solution to their 6000 receiver. But thanks to the Panasonic TU-DST50/51 and PV-HD1000, time shifting became a reality. The DISH 5000 receiver (but not the modulator) was selling long before the Panasonic PV-HD1000 even existed.

[Jacob S]

Dont you mean 2-10-03 instead of 3-10-03 as the date of the technical chat?

[BobaBird]

Shhh! No one was supposed to notice that!:blackeye:

[Kagato]

Originally posted by Ken_F

As I indicated in my post, that is what Dish was telling people at CES in January 2001, which coincidently is also when they announced the 6000 receiver. By that time, the modulator had long been discontinued, although you could still find one if you were willing to pay extra. If you were following various forums around this timeframe, you know all this, seeing that I reported some of it. And I am fairly certain that DISH mentioned as much on later technical chats, but I have no record of that. But once again, after the 5000 and its modulator were discontinued, and no longer sold by Dish, those who sought them on ebay, or through retailers at a price premium, took their own chances to some extent.


So basically, you either had to be the 0.00001% of the population that attended CES, or have already been a customer to see the Tech Chat. Somehow I'm not thinking that's due dilligence in providing honest pre-sales marketing materials.



Discovery is a great channel. And you weren't forced to subscribe to it. You could have traded in your modulator for the 6000 at $299 without a Discovery subscription, effectively a $200 credit. I do agree that DISH offered this rebate for too short a time, and should do so again, particularly IF they intend to remove current QPSK HDTV.

The 6000 obviously offers a good deal more functionality than the 5000 module, which did not include a MP@HL decoder. I would also note that the 8VSB modulator wasn't intended to address time shifting. DISH has no such intent when they designed the product as an interim solution to their 6000 receiver. But thanks to the Panasonic TU-DST50/51 and PV-HD1000, time shifting became a reality. The DISH 5000 receiver (but not the modulator) was selling long before the Panasonic PV-HD1000 even existed.

Using the old tech faq on their web site I would agree. The modulator was not designed specifically to work with a DVHS system. Of course out of the box it wasn't specifically stated to would work seamlessly with more than a couple makes of HD/STBs. I go back to the tech faq that said it was Dish's role to mearly pass an unadultered 8VSB signal to the customer. I've designed part of my AV system around that premise. It's not like I'm holding dish to someone some sales guy said at Sears, or things said on a 3rd party webboard. We're talking straight from the source E* marketing and tech materials. I don't fault dish for wanting to go to QSPK, but I will fault them if they expect my to pick up the tab for a program that will make them millions.

[JayeDVXIII]

I think of a lot of you made the mistake of trying to adapt to this technology too soon. I agree that HDTV has been a staggering technology and that the reason it hasn't become the standard as it was supposed to is because of many different factors..but seriously, I think that is why a lot of you are pissed off. When you adapt too early..you always get screwed when the technology goes mass.

(ducks from all the flames that are sure to come from having said this)

[Kagato]

Flame? Naw. Early Adapters get screwed. It happens. One vendor releases one technology, another has another format, next thing you know you've got a fancy Betamax deck collecting dust. What is unusual about this is this that there is no market conditions going mass here. Dish network is in complete control of the both products and services. The only presure at work is dish's ability to gain millions in revenue by freeing up transponder space. And while I agree that Dish has the right to make money, they also have an obligation to fulfill the product and service package they sold. If they can't fulfill that obligation then they need to make the situtation "right". It's good customer service, it's good business, and most likely the law.

[JayeDVXIII]

Question...I realize that the function of the 8SPK module is to receive what i would assume to be, greater compressed HDTV data (to fit more channels on the TP) however, since HD's biggest perk is that it's such a good picture, wouldn't compression be detrimental to the PQ?

[Mike123abc]

Originally posted by JayeDVXIII
Question...I realize that the function of the 8SPK module is to receive what i would assume to be, greater compressed HDTV data (to fit more channels on the TP) however, since HD's biggest perk is that it's such a good picture, wouldn't compression be detrimental to the PQ?

No, actually the 8PSK module allows 3 bits per symbol. The old way was 4PSK or QPSK which is 2 bits per symbol. The advantage is that you get 3 bits instead of 2 bits, but the disadvantage is that you have to have a more powerful signal so your reciever can pick out the more complex signal. Or, you have to have more error correction if you want to keep the same power level.

Dish is running 21.5 million symbols per sec on the HDTV transponders. So with 8PSK they can get a bit rate, before error correction, of 64.5 million with 8PSK where they only get 40 million on QPSK (they run 20million symbols on QPSK). Now on the wing satellites they run 2/3FEC so they get 43mbit/sec through with 8PSK, hopefully if they move to 110 they will have double power so will have 5/6FEC or 53.75Mbit/sec.

At this bit rate they could get 3 HDTV channels in at once, maybe 4. They can do this because they can vary the bit rate on the fly with satmux.

[Cyclone]

I think that 8SPK eliminates a lot of "over head" data. Data that isn't part of the picture quality. So even though the requirement for bandwidth is reduced, All of the data used for HDTV is still sent.

[Ken_F]

Question...I realize that the function of the 8SPK module is to receive what i would assume to be, greater compressed HDTV data (to fit more channels on the TP) however, since HD's biggest perk is that it's such a good picture, wouldn't compression be detrimental to the PQ?Mike's post above is excellent, but to answer your question more simply:

8PSK has nothing to do with compression. It is a modulation scheme. 8PSK allows them to fit more HDTV on a transponder without any additional compression by sending the data from satellite to your receiver more efficiently (but doing so requires higher radiated power from satellite).

But as Mike points out, I will be very interested to see if DISH can hit 5/6 FEC for 8PSK (given there is no 3/4 option for that modulation) on the double powered transponders at 110.