Mystifying Multifamily System

[Dr. Smoke]

Today I tried to do an install on a 6 story apartment complex which had some sort of commercial system I haven't seen before. On the roof was just one ~1.2 meter dish which I was told is DirecTV, and this fed down to an electrical closet on the 4th floor where the feed went into some large box (6"x6"?) then cascaded to about 20 small splitter-looking things. Each splitter (switch?) had one in and five out, with no 13v/18v marking. I checked the tap on one of the splitter-looking things and sure enough Birdog found 101.

The apartment co-ax was an avalanche of unlabelled wires tumbling out of the ceiling, but I finally found the one for apt 505, , so I connected it to the splitter-looking thing.

Went to the apt and to my surprise found that all three rooms had 101 on the outlets! Set up two receivers, but found that only every other transponder had signal. Called another tech and he said there's a splitter somewhere, even though my Birdog did not say high current! WTF?

So looked around and found a splitter in a box in a closet and tested the wires. IDed the three that went to the rooms, and set aside the one that was connected to In on the splitter, but there was still one unidentified co-ax. Birdogged it and yep, it had 101 just like the wire that was on In. So why was it connected to an Out on the splitter? And where did it come from?

Well, so I connected the In wire to the living-room wire with a barrel, fired up the IRD and it only saw every other transponder, and it hung up on the download. Took that off and connected Bedroom 2 to the In, and same thing.

So the mystery is what kind of commercial system was that in the closet? The upper half of the wall was obviously for satellite, and the lower cabinets were for Crumcast cable. I guess only one cable going to each apt is for the benefit of cable TV, so how can there be a DirecTV system as well? And why doesn't it get all transponders? (This building is 4 years old) And is there any way to activate multiple receivers in a situation like this?

My boss said this is one of the new digital-control systems, but I don't believe him. Maybe he was just trying to get me out of there, since I'd lost the money on the call anyway.

[veryoldschool]

Sounds like you ran into a single LNB dish that has a stacker:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SUS575-T
which would need a destacker: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SD575

Spec sheet here: http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_Spec_D575.pdf

[Dr. Smoke]

Cool yes, this seems exactly right. I was missing all even transponders.

So those were indeed just splitters in the electrical closet, to distribute the signal? They were not destackers?

And I should just have left the splitter in place in the apt, so it could be used whether the tenant uses cable or sat, and put a destacker at each receiver?

It makes sense that HD cannot be used with a stacked system since HD is already in the 1550-2050MHz Band. A pretty basic system they have installed.

This tenant was Taiwanese; I guess this system was only 101 and could not see 95 or 119, so no international channels? Would internationals require install of an international dish with vertical polarization? I don't think management of this 6 story building would allow that.

Is there any reasonable way to sort out which cables are for which apts, when they are all just a tangled mess? Is it just an Easter Egg hunt?

[dms1]

Sounds like you ran into a single LNB dish that has a stacker:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SUS575-T
which would need a destacker: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SD575

Spec sheet here: http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_Spec_D575.pdf
You don't need a destacker with any of the modern receivers (D11, D12, R15, R16 and I assume H20, HR20 etc.), since they have one built-in. You just need to enable it.

[veryoldschool]

You don't need a destacker with any of the modern receivers (D11, D12, R15, R16 and I assume H20, HR20 etc.), since they have one built-in. You just need to enable it.
Shouldn't assume. The H/HR-20/21 don't have destackers.

[veryoldschool]

Cool yes, this seems exactly right. I was missing all even transponders.

So those were indeed just splitters in the electrical closet, to distribute the signal? They were not destackers?

And I should just have left the splitter in place in the apt, so it could be used whether the tenant uses cable or sat, and put a destacker at each receiver?

It makes sense that HD cannot be used with a stacked system since HD is already in the 1550-2050MHz Band. A pretty basic system they have installed.

This tenant was Taiwanese; I guess this system was only 101 and could not see 95 or 119, so no international channels? Would internationals require install of an international dish with vertical polarization? I don't think management of this 6 story building would allow that.

Is there any reasonable way to sort out which cables are for which apts, when they are all just a tangled mess? Is it just an Easter Egg hunt?
Too many things to see "from here" when I can't see them.
Once the signals are stacked, then the cable can be split [again and again] and then either the older receiver will destack or you need to use an external destacker "at" the receiver.
MDU [multiple dwelling units] systems are very different. A single LNB system [like what you found] is the simplest. Then there are the phase III systems that use two cables [one for 101 and the other for 110 & 119]. This can also be done on one cable with different stackers that "stack" up to 3500 MHz.
For the 5-LNB systems, they use multiple SWM8s.
There is a separate forum here for MDU systems: http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=136

[Dr. Smoke]

An internal destacker? If I'd known this I could have saved the call. But I've never seen a setting in the D11 to enable a destacker. How is this done?

How can you tell whether a given IRD has a destacker?

[dms1]

An internal destacker? If I'd known this I could have saved the call. But I've never seen a setting in the D11 to enable a destacker. How is this done?

How can you tell whether a given IRD has a destacker?Press the front panel right-hand arrow and Active buttons together to bring up the diagnostic menu. If there is an internal destacker then there will be a menu option to select the LNB type between stacked and un-stacked.

[AntAltMike]

Some of the H20s have internal destackers and some don't. I installed three last fall and enabled their internal destackers (press active and right arrow on front panel at same time, etc.), but a week later, a software download occurred and took the internal destackers out of it.

I had to give this customer three destackers, but someone else in the same building has two H20s and his receiver did not receive a software update that disabled his internal destackers.

There was one report in these forums that the internal destacker got taken out of his R15, but that is the only report of an R15 losing one that I know of.

As far as I can tell, the D12 automatically detects the stacked trunkline, and its service menu did not give the installer the means to manually able or disable it.

All the Sony's from A/B3 to A/B65A had internal destackers, as did th Sony HD-100, the Hughes GAEBO/GCEBO, GAEBOA/GCEBOA and the HAH, HBH models.

With most Sony's, you would press menu and down at the same time, but with the Hughes/Sony models they vary a little from one another, but usually involve naviging the cursor to the "test" screen and then pressing either the info or fav button on the remote.

[dms1]

Some of the H20s have internal destackers and some don't. I installed three last fall and enabled their internal destackers (press active and right arrow on front panel at same time, etc.), but a week later, a software download occurred and took the internal destackers out of it.I wonder if they were disabled by mistake - in other words a bug. Although it might be considered a convenience for single-home installations, stacking is the core technology of the MFH-1 systems for MDUs. Therefore, it would seem strange to disable it. Indeed, how do you even connect an R15 to a stacked system without the internal destacker? I guess you would need an external destacker followed by a multiswitch.

[Dr. Smoke]

Thanks guys. Oh man, a firmware DL disabling the internal destacker? Gotta be a bug.

OK, I am going to try and recover this call. I'll reconnect the lines to the apt splitter (and ensure it's at least 2GHz), connect both D11's, and enable the internal destackers.

My third trip out there and 4th hour on this call, but then it doesn't really matter as I have nothing else to do today! The past two weeks I've had 75% of all my calls wash out for one reason or another. I'm making minimum wage, while having the pleasure of driving all over Seattle on $3.60 gas! Thank you Dick Cheney, may I have another?

[veryoldschool]

Thanks guys. Oh man, a firmware DL disabling the internal destacker? Gotta be a bug.
I doubt it's a "bug", since stacking isn't done with [the new] HD signals any more. The early receivers may have had the option in for use in MDU systems, but the "long view" is to work with SWM based systems and this may be [I don't know] why the software has deleted the feature.
The H/HR20 was never listed as having a destacker.

[1948GG]

DirecTV (really, all the North America/dbs providers to some extent) really didn't think things 'all the way through' in the number of sats, orbital locations, dish and receiver electronics, and finally the stacking plan to make it all 'work together'.

The Europeans, who utilized 'high power' Ku sats (not anywhere near the output of the North American dbs sats though), figured all this multi-sat stuff a LONG time ago, and came out with DiSEqC, which is the 'standard' now.

Echostar/DISH went through a couple of interations, both pre-Dishpro and post-Dishpro, before settling on DiSEqC. DirecTV has gone through a couple of 'home grown' iterations as well, and may have to change yet again (!), although it appears that the bandwidth (and orbital slots) of Ka may mean that the system that is in use today may suffice for many, many, years into the future.

What it appears you have sitting on this system is one of the wacky 'stacker' systems fielded in the 1998-2004 or thereabouts time frame. Whoever 'owns' that system probably abandoned it; if you can figure out who, if anyone, still has it under contract, you can get with them and see if they plan to upgrade it to the MFH2 system, or some variation of the SWM mini-slot as the building is on the small side.

[dms1]

What it appears you have sitting on this system is one of the wacky 'stacker' systems fielded in the 1998-2004 or thereabouts time frame. Whoever 'owns' that system probably abandoned it; if you can figure out who, if anyone, still has it under contract, you can get with them and see if they plan to upgrade it to the MFH2 system, or some variation of the SWM mini-slot as the building is on the small side.
Is it wacky, or is it just a standard MFH-1 system?

[Dr. Smoke]

Interesting. Although the building is rather large. Six stories, and I'd say ~200 units. It's just off Lake City Way and NE 143rd.

My main concern at the moment though, is getting these two IRDs working so I can get paid, because I am not sure how much longer I'll last in this business. Too many call washouts... minimum wage.

Visiting the customer in an hour or so to try and make destacking work! Only question is whether I'll be able to get them to actually viewing a channel so I can enable the hidden menu.

[dms1]

Did you manage to fix it?

[Dr. Smoke]

Unfortunately the call was routed back to Ironwood after my third failure out there, so I couldn't do the final call and get paid. Cost me four hours, but I am grateful to you guys for teaching me about Stacking.

It's scheduled for this afternoon, but I took off today to participate in the 5th Anniversary of these Wars' National Action Day (http://events.unitedforpeace.org/5yearstoomany/calendars/show) today. In D.C. they're planning to blockade the IRS and other federal branches that enable all these Wars.

[AntAltMike]

As far as I can tell, the D12 automatically detects the stacked trunkline, and its service menu did not give the installer the means to manually able or disable it....
As fate would have it, I serviced the customer who has the D12 I was referring to in the above post, and I was surprised to discover that the installer of that receiver had actually found a way to connect it to an ordinary multiswitch. When I had serviced it previously, I had just assumed it was on a stacked line because the original receiver that I had installed in that room had and used an internal destacker, so for now, I have no reason to think that a D12 can destack a standard, 950-2,025 MHz DirecTV Satellite A signal stack.

[Dr. Smoke]

Heh, turns out that another tech in my shop got it and didn't know what to do, so it was given back to me today. By this time the customer was reluctant to let me (or anyone) try again, but they are polite so let me in.

I set up a D11-800 and reconnected the apartment splitter, noticing to my horror that it was only rated to 1GHz. (stacked even transponders are from 1GHz to 2GHz, so would be lost) Went into the hidden menu, LNB, and selected Stacked. Arrowed to Done and <Select>... nothing. <Select> a couple more times... nothing. Done would not take. <Reset>. Whups, still set to NotStacked. Selected Stacked again and Done two more times, and this time it took me to the transponder strengths. Still no evens. Checked and it was indeed now set to Stacked.

Went to Rat Shack and bought a 2.5GHz splitter, installed it and BINGO, all transponders. Connected the other receiver and similar problens getting it to accept Done to save setting, but succeeded, and got all transponders. Customer very happy, and he reimbursed me for the $16 splitter. Plus I'll now be paid for the job.

Thanks ppls!

[kokishin]

Dr. Smoke,

Congrats! I admire your stick-to-itiveness. DTV needs more installers like you.

Smoke a doobie and enjoy your weekend. :alterhase


Heh, turns out that another tech in my shop got it and didn't know what to do, so it was given back to me today. By this time the customer was reluctant to let me (or anyone) try again, but they are polite so let me in.

I set up a D11-800 and reconnected the apartment splitter, noticing to my horror that it was only rated to 1GHz. (stacked even transponders are from 1GHz to 2GHz, so would be lost) Went into the hidden menu, LNB, and selected Stacked. Arrowed to Done and <Select>... nothing. <Select> a couple more times... nothing. Done would not take. <Reset>. Whups, still set to NotStacked. Selected Stacked again and Done two more times, and this time it took me to the transponder strengths. Still no evens. Checked and it was indeed now set to Stacked.

Went to Rat Shack and bought a 2.5GHz splitter, installed it and BINGO, all transponders. Connected the other receiver and similar problens getting it to accept Done to save setting, but succeeded, and got all transponders. Customer very happy, and he reimbursed me for the $16 splitter. Plus I'll now be paid for the job.

Thanks ppls!

[eandras]

Heh, turns out that another tech in my shop got it and didn't know what to do, so it was given back to me today. By this time the customer was reluctant to let me (or anyone) try again, but they are polite so let me in.

I set up a D11-800 and reconnected the apartment splitter, noticing to my horror that it was only rated to 1GHz. (stacked even transponders are from 1GHz to 2GHz, so would be lost) Went into the hidden menu, LNB, and selected Stacked. Arrowed to Done and <Select>... nothing. <Select> a couple more times... nothing. Done would not take. <Reset>. Whups, still set to NotStacked. Selected Stacked again and Done two more times, and this time it took me to the transponder strengths. Still no evens. Checked and it was indeed now set to Stacked.

Went to Rat Shack and bought a 2.5GHz splitter, installed it and BINGO, all transponders. Connected the other receiver and similar problens getting it to accept Done to save setting, but succeeded, and got all transponders. Customer very happy, and he reimbursed me for the $16 splitter. Plus I'll now be paid for the job.

Thanks ppls!

Great work in sticking it out. Most of the installers in NJ would have walked away and left the customer high and dry. Great Job. If you can make it past this stepyou might be able to go on your own. The MDU business could be a good niche if you can design and install thiose systems. Many buildings can be put under a contract that you would service and install the systems on your own.

When you get the down time read through the forums here you there are a lot of knowledgeable subscribers that post information like what was posted here.

Godd luck and hope all works out well for you.

Ed

[Dr. Smoke]

Thanks! Wish I had a doobie... (or actually some 'shrooms :new_color)
But I work 7 days/week 'cause otherwise it's minimum-wage around here. :icon_peac

eandras, this is just a temporary pursuit to make ends meet, while I try to get my ICF business (http://icf-dev.com) off the ground. Nice thing about this biz is all the freedom we've got in our schedule, and the lack of a boss. I've done much bigger things in my life, but lost my fortune in the damned thieving stock market during the Bush Recession of 2001. (as opposed to the Bush Recession of 1992, and the one now) Starting over now to try and make back my retirement money.