Sixto Report-D11 Status: In Operation July 31, 2008

[vtfan99]

I've been watching the replay on channel 573. Next replay at 10:00.

I tried using the online scheduler to record this but kept getting an error message...regardless of the receiver I chose. I was able to record other channels...so it must be an issue with the particular channel or the broadcast. I hope they continue the replays until I can get home and set the recording manually. :(

[Greg Alsobrook]

I tried using the online scheduler to record this but kept getting an error message...regardless of the receiver I chose. I was able to record other channels...so it must be an issue with the particular channel or the broadcast. I hope they continue the replays until I can get home and set the recording manually. :(

alot of people had issues... including myself... but you can set up a manual recording at m.directv.com

[dettxw]

I tried using the online scheduler to record this but kept getting an error message...regardless of the receiver I chose. I was able to record other channels...so it must be an issue with the particular channel or the broadcast. I hope they continue the replays until I can get home and set the recording manually. :(I ended up doing a manual record from the mobile (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/mobile/) scheduler. But then I made it home on time anyway. :)

[bluemoon737]

I sure hope that the PR that D* put out was a cut/paste of the D10 release and they forgot to change September to May. Six months from launch to operational is a loooooong time.

I noticed that too...hope it's a typo!

[Thaedron]

No, 2000 local HD channels. At about 6+ locals per market, that's about 200 markets.

Whoops, I read markets as channels. Guess I hadn't had enough coffee yet.

[Sixto]

Just added TLE to the 2nd post (link below).

Will try to keep it somewhat current until the other site's show D11 for real.

We're still guessing that 32729 is D11 but seems likely.

[LameLefty]

Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.

It's done as early as possible once out of the appreciable atmosphere to reduce vehicle mass.

[man_rob]

The more I think about this, that press release is a great strategy.

You're currently the HD leader. Lay in the weeds with no fanfare about D11 until you are a zillion times sure it's perfect.

Then pounce.

You already have more capacity then everyone else. Wait for the competition press releases ... when/if they ever catch up ... Then ... deliver early!

Good strategy. Very good strategy.

Next is to get D11 operational ... to implement the strategy.


Do you have a source for this information, or is it just speculation? I see no advantage to playing games, and not just adding new channels sooner rather than later. It seems odd that it took only 2 months to get D10 operational, and it will take six months to get D11 ready, when D11 had the advantage of being sent up from Sea Launch.

[crzychrisj]

woohoo! congrats Directv and SeaLaunch! I'm looking forward to even more HD to immerse myself in! :D

[flipptyfloppity]

A new LNB would be expensive considering they have been putting in Slimline dishes for a while now. Not to mention the sidecar. It' will be interesting to see as it goes.

If they added Ka on a satellite we don't all have a Ka LNB for, they'd likely do so for "narrowcast" items like the foreign language services. Thus not everyone would need the new equipment and also those services are generally expensive enough to cover the cost of installing a new dish.

[harsh]

I think one of the main reasons that people tend to be in awe of the precision that can be achieved in space is that they are used to dealing with terrestrial systems that are subject to factors such as friction and air resistance.You're simplifying the situation far too much. Up there you may not have to worry about friction from wind resistance, but you have an even larger impediment: other satellites! There are lots of items up there right now and you have to wiggle through them to get where you're going.

There's a reason that TLE's are so closely watched and carefully calculated.

The other side of the coin is that you must consider that at some point you start having a noticeable time delay.

There's a reason that the people who do space flight are a very superstitious crowd.

[harsh]

Set expectations low. They're currently the HD leader, so put a date in the Press Release that they absolutely 100% can meet. They added a few months to deal with any issues that might arise.The problem with this theory is that they splattered the landscape with tales of this capacity in September of 2004. The only people they are fooling are the ones that believed that this projected capacity would be available by a year ago at this time.

[MIAMI1683]

The problem with this theory is that they splattered the landscape with tales of this capacity in September of 2004. The only people they are fooling are the ones that believed that this projected capacity would be available by a year ago at this time.

Well it was less then a year ago when we got the capacity. In all though it has been very good. Remember there is still a risk with launching and thiers have been perect in recent thistory!

[1948GG]

I appreciate your response, but I thought I had seen others state on this forum DirecTV had into-home Ka licenses at 99, 101 and 103. You seem to be saying that is not the case, or could not be the case legally.

Those people as simply not being accurate; 'lumping' all of the Ka-Band (10+Ghz wide!) into one 'chunk', simply because they are either confused or lazy to type the proper designation. Again, it's like referring to the Ku/DBS band as simply 'Ku'; I shake my head every time I see it referred to as such, when the Ku/DBS is a SMALL subset of the entire Ku-band (even if talking about space-based transmissions, not even figuring the terrestrial parts of the band!), but people are confused/lazy, and that will never change.

It's kind of like Earl B. here trying (at various points!) to get folks to type out 'DirecTV' rather than 'D*'. I myself never use the 'D*' designation, always type out the full 'DirecTV'. Trying to get everyone else to do so is like changing the direction of a herd, and they arn't beef cattle, but lions. Not Gonna Happen.

The FCC is allowing the companies 'homesteading' the Ka-band to pretty much 'write the rules' as they go along. Far different approach than with the Ku/DBS band in the early 90's. Things might have been different if, as I've pointed out before, some or all of the terrestrial (or satellite for that matter) ideas for utilizing Ka had come to fruition in the recent past years, but fiber squashed most of them. So now, it's more like the 'wild west'. A 'build it and they will come' landscape. What's interesting to me is that the naysayers that, back in the 90's, said that Ku was too prone to rain fade and such, really haven't been beating the drums on the Ka/BSS hardly at all.

Probably because the link-budget for the super-highpower satellites are such that technically, the new sats like DirecTV10/11 are LESS prone to effects than their older Ku/DBS links were 15 years ago (and I've verified such; the problems people bring up here are obviously badly aimed dishes and flaky systems) The electronics, the transmissions, the mechanical bits of the system didn't stand still for those 15 years!

[Sixto]

Do you have a source for this information, or is it just speculation? I see no advantage to playing games, and not just adding new channels sooner rather than later. It seems odd that it took only 2 months to get D10 operational, and it will take six months to get D11 ready, when D11 had the advantage of being sent up from Sea Launch.Total speculation ... but sound strategy if true.

The reality of the situation is that the channels will be turned on as soon as is reasonably possible. They won't be delayed because of some press release.

All we're discussing here is the press release, which was issued 20 minutes after they heard D11 say "Hello". They want to be 100% sure before they say anything else.

Since DirecTV is the current leader, everyone will be looking for anything negative, no matter how small.

Saying September removes all risk of missing the date.

Good strategy.

And when it goes "live" in 6 weeks, it's all gravy ... and much fanfare.

[dms1]

You're simplifying the situation far too much. Up there you may not have to worry about friction from wind resistance, but you have an even larger impediment: other satellites! There are lots of items up there right now and you have to wiggle through them to get where you're going.

There's a reason that TLE's are so closely watched and carefully calculated.

The other side of the coin is that you must consider that at some point you start having a noticeable time delay.

There's a reason that the people who do space flight are a very superstitious crowd.You are right, but everything else up there is also well behaved so it is possible to model a trajectory for your satellite and then use this is decide how to control it. It may not be trivial, but it is possible. Compare this to the situation of trying to model, for example, where a very light glider set free at a high altitude will eventually land. Regardless of your available computing power you are unlikely to get a very accurate answer because the interfering factors (principally air resistance) are verging on chaotic.

[steveken]

i know this probably isn't the thread for this... and i know you're going to yell at me tom ;) ... but you guys should check this out... check out the altitude on AMC-14 and how quickly is declining... http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32709 :confused: ...

I know I am a few pages behind, but I thought I would offer my .02 worth on this. You can't go by altitude. The way the shuttle and all satellites work while going up and going around the earth is there is a high point and a low point to its path around the planet. There are always going to be times when the satellite is "falling" and then there are other times when it is "rising" until its where it goes. For an object that is actually circling the planet, there is not an actual stable altitude for it. I think its only stable once it has achieved where it is going to park for operation.

[LameLefty]

There are lots of items up there right now and you have to wiggle through them to get where you're going.

That's not really accurate. :rolleyes:

The trajectory planners do make detailed analysis of their launch and orbital insertion, but it's very, very rare to have to adjust specifically because of the risk of a collision at that altitude. Even at the much lower, much more crowded altitude of the ISS, a "collision avoidance maneuver" is rare. "Slotting" into an already- occupied slot (e.g., 99 deg W) isn't that hard because the two sats are still miles apart. That's not the reason for any "September" timeframe.

The sat will be ready WAY before then. Absent any technical concerns with D11, the content (e.g., all those new locals and a few laggard national HDs) will be the reason for any delay, not slotting the satellite into its parking orbit.

[dms1]

I know I am a few pages behind, but I thought I would offer my .02 worth on this. You can't go by altitude. The way the shuttle and all satellites work while going up and going around the earth is there is a high point and a low point to its path around the planet. There are always going to be times when the satellite is "falling" and then there are other times when it is "rising" until its where it goes. For an object that is actually circling the planet, there is not an actual stable altitude for it. I think its only stable once it has achieved where it is going to park for operation.Correct - instantaneous altitude is a meaningless number. All satellite orbits (assuming the on-board thrusters are not firing at the time) are elliptical with the Earth at one focus. A circular orbit is just a special case of this where the altitude is constant. A geosynchronous orbit is in turn a special case of a circular orbit that happens to be at the right height to orbit with a period of one sidereal day. A geostationary orbit is a special case of a geosynchronous orbit that has an inclination of zero.

Anyone who doesn't understand the basics of orbits should just Google Kepler's laws.

[Neural762]

Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.

This is strictly an educated guess, but I believe the fairing is strictly there to provide a proper aerodynamic profile during atmospheric flight, not any significant amount of protection, particularly from space debris that could impact at several thousand km/h. Additionally, since it's an inert object with no way to control it, it would need to be jettisoned fairly early in the flight to ensure it returns to earth quickly and does not become a hazard to anything in orbit.

[raoul5788]

The problem with this theory is that they splattered the landscape with tales of this capacity in September of 2004. The only people they are fooling are the ones that believed that this projected capacity would be available by a year ago at this time.

They set a timetable, which they mostly stuck to. When they didn't, it wasn't their fault. You have berated them about this here and at Satguys. Get over it, why don't you? They are providing an excellent product. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, be quiet!

[msmith]

It looks like 32729 is the shuttle STS-123.

[dms1]

It looks like 32729 is the shuttle STS-123.In which case it has to be in exactly the same location as the ISS, since the two are docked at the moment.

[Sixto]

Updated TLE - 3rd update since launch (in 2nd post) ...

Lon 69.9886° W
Lat 0.0003° N
Alt (km) 30 812.950
Azm 268.9°
Elv -8.9°
RA 00h 53m 08s
Decl -7° 44' 39"
Range (km) 37 638.964
RRt (km/s) -1.310
Vel (km/s) 2.308
Direction Ascending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 257.1° (182)
TA 199.3°
Orbit # 1
Mag (illum) Not visible
Constellation Cet

[cartrivision]

It looks like 32729 is the shuttle STS-123.

If you are referring to the web site at

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729

...right now, 32729 is an invalid tracking number, and all invalid tracking numbers seem to default to STS-123.

[hdtvfan0001]

:backtotop

Does anyone know the earliest date when D11 will be confirmed as "functionally operational" - not to be confused with broadcast operational (when it starts to broadcast channels)???

That date will reflect when we know D11 is operating without problems.

[celticpride]

I'm just as excited about this launch as the rest of you! will we be getting the full bitrate hd signal with this sattelite? not trying to be negative,but in the past i've seen post about the signal being ''hd lite'',although in my opinion it looks great!

[LameLefty]

This is strictly an educated guess, but I believe the fairing is strictly there to provide a proper aerodynamic profile during atmospheric flight, not any significant amount of protection, particularly from space debris that could impact at several thousand km/h. Additionally, since it's an inert object with no way to control it, it would need to be jettisoned fairly early in the flight to ensure it returns to earth quickly and does not become a hazard to anything in orbit.

See my earlier answer up-thread. It's jettisoned as soon as possible for mass reasons. Given its size and light weight, it would have a high coefficient of drag in orbit and unless it rode all the way to GTO, it would reenter quickly from a low orbit.

[man_rob]

I don't know if this has been posted, but Engadget HD is reporting that contact has been made with D11, and it is reporting back that is it healthy. They also say it took 81 days for D10 to start broadcasting to the masses.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/20/directv-11-phones-home-hd-clock-starts-ticking/

[moonman]

:backtotop

Does anyone know the earliest date when D11 will be confirmed as "functionally operational" - not to be confused with broadcast operational (when it starts to broadcast channels)???

That date will reflect when we know D11 is operating without problems.
Whenever it is that Boeing turns control of it over to Directv
=========
We don't know when Boeing will turn control of it to DirecTV....that is the
"operational" point.

[curt8403]

I'm just as excited about this launch as the rest of you! will we be getting the full bitrate hd signal with this sattelite? not trying to be negative,but in the past i've seen post about the signal being ''hd lite'',although in my opinion it looks great!


HD lite is a bugaboo. it means nothing. all Sat HD is compressed to allow more signals to be transmitted. Those who gripe about "HD Lite" are in my opinion small minded worms

[Sixto]

I'm just as excited about this launch as the rest of you! will we be getting the full bitrate hd signal with this sattelite? not trying to be negative,but in the past i've seen post about the signal being ''hd lite'',although in my opinion it looks great!The signal (bandwidth) is just fine. And now especially fine with the ability to spread HD across both D10 and D11 soon.

The future is rosey ... while my local cable company moves VOOM to SDV to make room for an one HD channel at a time ...

[Sixto]

I don't know if this has been posted, but Engadget HD is reporting that contact has been made with D11, and it is reporting back that is it healthy. They also say it took 81 days for D10 to start broadcasting to the masses.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/20/directv-11-phones-home-hd-clock-starts-ticking/I'm betting by 4/30/2008 we will see 99 (c) with a signal on our signal-meter. :)

[lwilli201]

I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is. :)

[ziltomil]

That's not really accurate. :rolleyes:

The trajectory planners do make detailed analysis of their launch and orbital insertion, but it's very, very rare to have to adjust specifically because of the risk of a collision at that altitude. Even at the much lower, much more crowded altitude of the ISS, a "collision avoidance maneuver" is rare. "Slotting" into an already- occupied slot (e.g., 99 deg W) isn't that hard because the two sats are still miles apart. That's not the reason for any "September" timeframe.

The sat will be ready WAY before then. Absent any technical concerns with D11, the content (e.g., all those new locals and a few laggard national HDs) will be the reason for any delay, not slotting the satellite into its parking orbit.
I believe SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 are between 45 and 46 miles apart.

[dms1]

I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is. :)It's in the sky. ;)

[curt8403]

It's in the sky. ;)

they are not releasing tracking info for d11 yet as far as I can tell.

[Canis Lupus]

Here's the Boeing release again in case it wasn't posted yet:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q1/080320a_nr.html

[Sixto]

I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is. :)http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1509553&postcount=272

[tkrandall]

I believe SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 are between 45 and 46 miles apart.

At geosynchrounous orbit (~22,236 miles above equator, or 26,194 miles above the center of the earth's core - the actual center point of the orbit) 1 degree equates to somehign like 457 miles seperation. So .1 degree would be ~46 miles, .2 degrees ~91 miles.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/GEO_ORBIT/DI146.htm

[Indiana627]

I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is. :)
Space.

[lwilli201]

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1509553&postcount=272

Great info. Thanks.

[harsh]

Given its size and light weight, it would have a high coefficient of drag in orbit and unless it rode all the way to GTO, it would reenter quickly from a low orbit.Atmospheric drag doesn't apply above about 75 miles. The jettison point is considerably higher than that (~125 miles).

[Greg Alsobrook]

At geosynchrounous orbit (~22,236 miles above equator, or 26,194 miles above the center of the earth's core - the actual center point of the orbit) 1 degree equates to somehign like 457 miles seperation. So .1 degree would be ~46 miles, .2 degrees ~91 miles.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/GEO_ORBIT/DI146.htm

I was going to ask this.... great info!! thanks!

[Greg Alsobrook]

At geosynchrounous orbit (~22,236 miles above equator, or 26,194 miles above the center of the earth's core - the actual center point of the orbit) 1 degree equates to somehign like 457 miles seperation. So .1 degree would be ~46 miles, .2 degrees ~91 miles.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/GEO_ORBIT/DI146.htm

so then... if i'm doing my math correctly... the sat at 99 and the sat at 119 are ~ 9140 miles apart??

[tuff bob]

so then... if i'm doing my math correctly... the sat at 99 and the sat at 119 are ~ 9140 miles apart??


that page has the orbit circumference at 164,582, so that'd make it 9143 miles. ahhh.

But of course thats the distance around the edge of the orbit :D

[dms1]

not sure if my math is off, but if you figure 20 degrees apart and a complete orbit (360 degrees) is 22,236 miles, then the circumference is (2*22236*pi) or 139,713 miles, and 20 degrees apart is (20/360) * 139,713 or 7762 miles.

But of course thats the distance around the edge of the orbit :D

that page has the orbit circumference at 164,582, so that'd make it 9143 miles. ahhh.You are using the orbital height and not its radius. The correct answer is ~9143 miles.

[spartanstew]

No new information, but HDTV magazine now has the story:

HERE (http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2008/03/directv_satellite_launch_sets_the_stage_for_delive ry_of_up_to_150_national_hd_channels.php)

[willardcpa]

so then... if i'm doing my math correctly... the sat at 99 and the sat at 119 are ~ 9140 miles apart??
Welllll, not exactly. They are 9140 miles apart if you measure along the arc of their orbit. But since that is along a curve, if you want "straight line" distance you need to do a little more geometry.;)

[lwilli201]

No new information, but HDTV magazine now has the story:

HERE (http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2008/03/directv_satellite_launch_sets_the_stage_for_delive ry_of_up_to_150_national_hd_channels.php)

Another reference to September light up.:confused: I would think it will not take that long. Is that where Swanni got his info?

[Paul A]

Congrats D11!!! Exciting Stuff.

Crazy question... Can one see a satellite using a ground based telescope? If so, anyone have pictures of D10?

Paul

[syphix]

All these stories are referencing the press release. Either a typo or strategery. It will NOT take 6 months to get D11 active. If it does, then DirecTV is doing something wrong.

[Earl Bonovich]

So what if it takes to September?
So long as nothing is held up because of it...

It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.

So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.

It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.

[bubbers44]

As I read the 30 minute coast to second burn the speed was only 10,000 mph so jetisoning the fairings would allow them to fall back into the atmosphere and burn up. It takes about 17,500 mph to stay in orbit. Having 46 miles separation between two satellites .1 degree apart makes a collision virtually impossible. Striking another satellite getting in position would be practically impossible by random maneuvering. Imagine two aircraft 46 miles apart with about a 5,000 ft random altitude hitting each other in a million years. Being 22,236 miles up gives you a lot of latitude for straying off course a few miles or off altitude a tad.

[Indiana627]

So what if it takes to September?
So long as nothing is held up because of it...

It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.

So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.

It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.
Great analogy and point.

They probably were holding back on filling up D10 just in case something went wrong with D11. Hopefully soon they'll know for sure D11 is fine and not have to worry about holding back on D10.

[Tom Robertson]

I know everyone is VERY excited at the awesome news and desperately drooling for more, but please keep the thread on topic. Some attempts at humor on topic are ok, but... well let's just say posts have been and will continue to be deleted if they run too far afield...

Cheers,
Tom

[doctor j]

Welllll, not exactly. They are 9140 miles apart if you measure along the arc of their orbit. But since that is along a curve, if you want "straight line" distance you need to do a little more geometry.;)


Trying to remember geometry:

c=2r*sin(theta/2)

r=26284
theta=20 degrees or .349 radians

Chord=9125 miles

Doctor j

[HDTVsportsfan]

Trying to remember geometry:

c=2r*sin(theta/2)

r=26284
theta=20 degrees or .349 radians

Chord=9125 miles

Doctor j

You guys are killing me here. :)

[spartanstew]

Trying to remember geometry:

c=2r*sin(theta/2)

r=26284
theta=20 degrees or .349 radians

Chord=9125 miles

Doctor j


Carry the 1.

[wagman]

...the problems people bring up here are obviously badly aimed dishes and flaky systems...

shyeah...obviously...dang!;)

[Greg Alsobrook]

you need to do a little more geometry.;)

that has to do with traingles...right? :lol:

You guys are killing me here. :)

Carry the 1.

!rolling

[EricRobins]

I don't know if it has been covered in the previous 8 pages, but what are we expecting out of this bird?

From what I understand, we currently have just about every available HD channel. Other than some LILs (which are of no impact to me since all my locals - or at least the ones I care about - are already HD), why should I be eggsited about this bird?

[syphix]

So what if it takes to September?
So long as nothing is held up because of it...

It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.

So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.

It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.I'm only going off "history" (and only off my short history of timeframes between successful launches and "live" dates), and six months seems rather excessive. I understand your reasoning, though have to question if D10 isn't already somewhat full with HD nationals...without futher compression. Any more expansion on the HD nationals, it's been speculated* (on this forum and others), would almost certainly require D11. And there's a few HD nationals yet to be carried (though a few, mind you, that have yet to even "go live"), plus the migration of legacy MPEG2-HD channels to MPEG4.

*"Speculation" is dangerous territory, I know...

[tcusta00]

why should I be eggsited about this bird?

Because it's going to bring us even more egggggciting HD in the future, man!!

[Mr. Bungle]

You'd need the secret code: 12345.

Why, that's the code on my luggage!:lol:

[jacksonm30354]

I don't know if it has been covered in the previous 8 pages, but what are we expecting out of this bird?

From what I understand, we currently have just about every available HD channel. Other than some LILs (which are of no impact to me since all my locals - or at least the ones I care about - are already HD), why should I be eggsited about this bird?

JUst because you have your locals doesn't means there aren't many, many others that do not. So those folks are excited about getting their locals, plus there are HD channels no one on Directv gets yet (Travel HD, WGN HD, etc). Plus there are going to be more channels going HD in the future. It ensures Directv should have the capacity to add those as they come on the HD bandwagon ;-)

[Tom Robertson]

NO. You're talkiing about two different actual bands, the BSS part of the Ka band (the space to earth direct broadcast part, the part we all receive at our homes, in which the separation is FOUR degrees), and the FSS part of the band, which is different frequencies. It's like trying to compare the Ku band with the Ku/DBS band, in which the Ku/DBS is a SUBSET of the entire Ku-band.

Just referring to it all as 'Ka' is as incorrect as referring to the 12Ghz Ku-band as one 'lump' of frequencies. When people refer to the Ku/DBS band in such a way, they 'confuse' the different actual sub-bands within it. Just as 'bad' as referring to the Ka/BSS (broadcast satellite, the FCC hasn't really designated parts of it as 'DBS' as of yet, simply because the only user of those frequencies so far is DirecTV), as 'MPEG4'; as the Echostar/DISH folks will instantly tell you, they use the ENCODING of Mpeg4 at the Ku/DBS frequencies every day.

So, to specify, the Ka/BSS satellites Spaceway1/2 and now DirecTV10/11, are FOUR degrees apart (99/103), while the DirecTV8 (at 101) utilizes the Ka-FSS (fixed satellite) band for backhauls and such. Two completely different things. So just saying that Ka has 'two degree separation' is totally incorrect.

Well... you are better at using the more precise terminology perhaps than I, but you are missing the licensing details.

Hughes was awarded many Ka-DBS (perhaps an incorrect term, but one everyone here will be familiar with) licenses in 1997, all of which included both downlink to the home in two frequency ranges: 18.3-18.8GHz and 19.7-20.2GHz. (The final frequencies were set in stone in 2000.) DIRECTV customers are interested in two of them: 99° and 101°.

In 2003 the FCC granted Hughes Electronics the right to transfer to Hughes Network Systems, PanAmSat's license for 103°. Hughes Electronics owned both Hughes Network and PanAmSat, so the FCC said, sure you own them both, no problem.

When Hughes divested DIRECTV, all three Ka-DBS licenses went to DIRECTV specifically for HD and other advanced services.

Ka-DBS is operated at 2° separation to the home on a less than 1m dish. (When considering separation, dish size is an important factor.)

This all builds up to DIRECTV can send signals to the home at both Ka frequency assignments at all three locations: 99°, 101°, and 103°. Currently, DIRECTV uses 101° for backhauling purposes. (Several reasons for that...) At some point, with LNB swap-outs (and likely several other changes) DIRECTV could very well broadcast to the home from 101°.

My current feeling is that is not D12's role. This is just a feeling, I do not have any confirmations yet.

I have theorized that D12 could be placed at 101° to be a quick spare in space, freeing up any reserves DIRECTV might hold back in the current Ka constellation of S1/S2/D10/D11.

Or DIRECTV might put D12 at 99° or 103° and make some adjustments to the balance of spot/National beams at both locations, given how extremely flexible S1/S2 are. Such adjustments might allow D12 some frequency range to broadcast in immediately as well as serve a backup role.

Until DIRECTV tells me (and then allows me to tell you) or until we all see the FCC filings, we don't really know. DIRECTV might still be working the math in preparing the FCC filing request thinking one thing but when all the numbers are crunched, come up with another solution altogether.

Cheers,
Tom

[davemayo]

Even better: I'll try to explain it in a paragraph or so right here AND provide a link to longer explanation. :)

Basically, the higher up something orbits, the slower (relative to the earth's surface) it appears to move. Low orbit satellites like the shuttle and the ISS zip around the earth in around 90 minutes or so from a couple hundred miles up. By contrast, at 22,300-odd miles, the speed of the satellite as it tracks around the Earth's center of mass is exactly the same as the rotational rate of the Earth. So, the trick is to put the satellite into a slightly lower (and faster) orbit, or a slightly higher (and slower) orbit until you get it to the right "slot" and then adjust the orbital velocity up or down precisely to "park" it where you want it in geostationary orbit. It's gets complicated in practice because you can't speed it up or slow it down instantaneously, so you have to precisely model it mathematically and plan the maneuvers so that you get it right with the minimum use of fuel, but basically that's it.

Now here's a link: http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n07/

And another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary

Hope this helps!

Just got around to checking the board and there are a zillion new posts in this thread. :eek2: This helps quite a bit. Thanks. :D

[wilmot3]

can someone tell me what they r useing as a sat name or #to get tle's?

[Sixto]

I thought D10 was fairly full from a nationals perspective.

14 national transponders. About 38mbps bandwidth. About 5 HD channels per transponder. That's 70. Unless I have something wrong.

Then assume that not all of the national HD channels need full bandwidth because some don't have full HD then maybe that 70 becomes 80 or so. Current count was at 74 for D10 so seemed like another 5-10 channels was maybe possible.

Also, seems like they may be using the spotbeams to cover the whole country for some more national HD until D11 is functional. and they're sharing some of the PPV-HD with the Game-Only HD before D11 is "live".

Seemed like the original 150 estimate came from 75 on each bird with the 150 spread across the 28 national transponder. Average 5.4 channels per transponder.

[Sixto]

can someone tell me what they r useing as a sat name or #to get tle's?sat 32729

[wilmot3]

sat 32729

so this would be the latest tle then......correct?

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

[HoTat2]

...Also, seems like they may be using the spotbeams to cover the whole country for some more national HD until D11 is functional. and they're sharing some of the PPV-HD with the Game-Only HD before D11 is "live"....

Using D10's spot beams and their assigned transponders to distribute a national feed as it is done on CONUS beams?

[rotohead]

Trying to remember geometry:

c=2r*sin(theta/2)

r=26284
theta=20 degrees or .349 radians

Chord=9125 miles

Doctor j

I ran out of fingers and toes @ 'c=2r...'

[Tom Robertson]

...
Also, seems like they may be using the spotbeams to cover the whole country for some more national HD until D11 is functional. and they're sharing some of the PPV-HD with the Game-Only HD before D11 is "live".
...
I am fairly sure that D10/D11/D12 can't use spotbeam transponders to perform Nations. I don't think they get enough coverage that way.

They might be using some of D10s spare transponders as Nationals right now.

Originally, S1 and S2 were planned to be able to broadcast Nationals as well as spotbeams using their phased arrays but my guess is the actual power consumption was too great so that plan didn't work.

Cheers,
Tom

[highheater]

Because it's going to bring us even more egggggciting HD in the future, man!!

Hopefully something more than 1000 more locals .... what a waste of bandwidth

[Earl Bonovich]

Hopefully something more than 1000 more locals .... what a waste of bandwidth

Not to those that don't have their locals yet in HD.

Locals are a VERY important part to the entertainment aspect of TV.

(But I do agree, the fact that they do (have to) carry all those locals, instead of just sharing a single affiliate feed, or some compromise... is a waste of bandwith.)

[Greg Alsobrook]

Hopefully something more than 1000 more locals .... what a waste of bandwidth

waste of bandwidth??? how do you figure?

[curt8403]

waste of bandwidth??? how do you figure?


I would not consider the bandwidth for my 4 HD locals a waste

if they are your locals they are not a waste

[Interceptor]

so this would be the latest tle then......correct?

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:

OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06

[Sixto]

I am fairly sure that D10/D11/D12 can't use spotbeam transponders to perform Nations. I don't think they get enough coverage that way.

They might be using some of D10s spare transponders as Nationals right now.

Originally, S1 and S2 were planned to be able to broadcast Nationals as well as spotbeams using their phased arrays but my guess is the actual power consumption was too great so that plan didn't work.

Cheers,
TomThanks Tom.

Just been trying to figure out the D10 HD math for a while now.

5 HD per transponder seems optimal so either D10 was doing more then 5 per transponder (which might be fine) or there were more transponders.

A signal strength test in NY shows D10 transponders 17 and 22 alive and bright (94 & 96). Thought they might be spotbeams doing nationals in some way. Didn't consider the possibility of spares.

Current math had D10 with 74 nationals, soon the 4 West DNS's, and 23 Game-only RSN's.

Been curious how to fit all that into 14 transponders with 5 each.

There was a guy with some gizmo that posted a transponder map last November which is where I got the unconfirmed/unofficial transponder map from in my HD thread.

Figured that D11 would take the strain off D10, so was wondering where the concept of filling D10 with more was headed (or how).

[Carl Spock]

From years ago, I have a pass to Boeing's media archive. I went there today and found the following picture of the Sea Launch vehicles at their home port. Here is a hi-rez version (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/sealaunchhomeport.jpg).

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/sealaunchhomeportsm.jpg

[DirecTV-Sub]

That might be the upper stage - it separated from D11 and is also in orbit at the moment.

[curt8403]

While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:

OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06

perhaps the second object is the Block DM which would possibly be following???

[skyviewmark1]

From what I have seen anything with the word "Object" in it usually refers to the rocket booster or just parts from a launch.. Yes these may be parts of the DirecTV-11 launch platform.. But may not be anywhere near the actual satellite. Just speculation on my part though.. I don't know anything about rocket science.

[Tom Robertson]

Not to those that don't have their locals yet in HD.

Locals are a VERY important part to the entertainment aspect of TV.

(But I do agree, the fact that they do (have to) carry all those locals, instead of just sharing a single affiliate feed, or some compromise... is a waste of bandwith.)
All well and good during Prime-time, national news, and soaps time; but that still leaves a goodly amount of the day for local news (the #1 money maker for affiliates and best avenue for commerical placement), local late nite, and local weekend programming. All of which will mean someone will need to have bandwidth available for those timeperiods.

Don't forget 2 things: 1) some local stations do a censorship edit before broadcasting Prime-time, :( and 2) local ad sales in Prime-time.

So, the bandwidth is needed at various times of the day for locally originated programming (or locally timed syndicated programming) and ad sales. Can a system be devised whereby the other times, when the single (or at least timezone specific) "affiliate feed" as you refer to it can be used to some form of benefit? Or will the bandwidth required for the locally originated programming be really unusable anyway?

Ad sales is the killer. You have to broadcast them realtime in parallel with the "shared single affiliate" feed; you can't rely upon DVRs at each location yet to insert them if prestaged.

So in the 20 minutes between local ads of Prime-time, what would you do with that bandwidth? Partially download preset DoD for the DVRs might work. Guide information freeing up the "extra tuner" for time periods?

While there are times when it seems that bandwidth is totally wasted, the reality appears to be the chunks that truly are wasteful duplication really aren't useful bandwidth that I can tell.

And local breaking news and alert crawls on the screen... Election nites are always going to require full local bandwidth... :)

Cheers,
Tom

[longrider]

While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:

OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06

This is just a guess, but could Object B be the Block-DM upper stage? I dont know how quickly it deorbits itself but until that time I would think they would stay fairly close

[bigmac94]

I would not consider the bandwidth for my 4 HD locals a waste

if they are your locals they are not a waste

There you go..What he Said..

[LameLefty]

Atmospheric drag doesn't apply above about 75 miles. The jettison point is considerably higher than that (~125 miles).

Um, no. You're quite wrong about that. If you don't believe me, call up some friends at JSC and they will correct you. :)

[Tom Robertson]

Um, no. You're quite wrong about that. If you don't believe me, call up some friends at JSC and they will correct you. :)

Man, DON'T LEAVE US HANGING! What is the correct information? :)

[Carl Spock]

Tom and Earl, local stations rely on inserting their own ads 24/7, not just in prime time. They make the most money selling ads out of prime time. When I would buy advertising for my stereo store from one of my local networks, I'd get a package with a few ads in an extended prime time block and a whole bunch the rest of the day. The station would average the price to make the cost reasonable to me and give them fill. I couldn't afford to buy true prime time ads but I'd get a few in a flight because I'd have many in syndicated afternoon talk shows, not provided by the network. In a $2,000 package, maybe only $500 would be prime ads. $1,500 would run during other times.

DirecTV has to dedicate specific channels to each local station. It's the only way that the system works.

[LameLefty]

I believe SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 are between 45 and 46 miles apart.

I did the math back when D10 was in its temporary parking slot and that was the number sticking in my head, but I haven't checked again. :)

[HoTat2]

I am fairly sure that D10/D11/D12 can't use spotbeam transponders to perform Nations. I don't think they get enough coverage that way.

They might be using some of D10s spare transponders as Nationals right now.

Originally, S1 and S2 were planned to be able to broadcast Nationals as well as spotbeams using their phased arrays but my guess is the actual power consumption was too great so that plan didn't work.

Cheers,
Tom

Not to mention that according to D10/11/12’s frequency scheme, the tremendous technical problem of trying to simultaneously uplink the same national feeds on up to 20 channels from 5 ground stations. In addition to any spot beam uplink channels being transmitted from the Los Angeles Broadcast Center. ;)

[Tom Robertson]

Tom and Earl, local stations rely on inserting their own ads 24/7, not just in prime time. They make the most money selling ads out of prime time. When I would buy advertising for my stereo store from one of my local networks, I'd get a package with a few ads in an extended prime time block and a whole bunch the rest of the day. The station would average the price to make the cost reasonable to me and give them fill. I couldn't afford to buy true prime time ads but I'd get a few in a flight because I'd have many in syndicated afternoon talk shows, not provided by the network. In a $2,000 package, maybe only $500 would be prime ads. $1,500 would run during other times.

DirecTV has to dedicate specific channels to each local station. It's the only way that the system works.

Sorry, my analysis was only the "wasted bandwidth" times when in theory a "shared single affiliate" feed would do. The rest of the time, I can't see getting around separate bandwidth usage for the locals as outside prime-time and soaps-time, everything is local in one sense or another. So I was thinking of the times you refer to, but didn't explicitly call them out.

Cheers,
Tom

[LameLefty]

Man, DON'T LEAVE US HANGING! What is the correct information? :)

Everything under several hundred miles is still affected by the (very) tenuous dregs of the upper atmosphere. The effect of this thin gas is to slow objects down and eventually de-orbit them (witness all the little pieces of recently "shot down" USA 193 (*) - quite a few of them are still in orbit and being tracked by NORAD and a few of them have burned up every week since. If you have a NORAD Space-Track account, you can see the weekly changes and see which chunks have splashed in.

Part of the problem with drag estimates, however, is that it depends to a great degree of the density of the atmosphere - while it's considered a vacuum for most intents and purposes, most of low-Earth orbit (LEO) is not empty - there's enough gas molecules up there to affect objects appreciably over a period of months, weeks and occasionally days. The density of the upper atmosphere depends on average atmospheric temperature and therefore solar activity. While the solar cycles are well-understood, the daily, weekly and sometimes monthly activity varies a great deal from the mean and thus causes the very high upper atmosphere to contract or expand.

The other factor that impacts drag is the density of the object in question. The smaller and denser objects are, the lower the coefficient of drag; the larger and less dense, the higher the coefficient of drag. So fairing panels, being both large in surface area and light, would deorbit quickly even if they'd made it to an elliptical orbit, provided the perigee is less than about 300 miles (perhaps higher than that but not by an order of magnitude - something a thousand miles up will stay there a LONG time).

ISS requires regular reboosts by either Progress supply vessels, visiting shuttles, or soon, visiting European ATV vehicles (the first of which is in orbit now and will rendezvous in a few weeks or so) or future Japanese HTV vehicles. The Russian segment of the station also has reboost capability for the complex but for various reasons, it's not the optimal solution for reboost as the station has grown in size and changed configuration.

Oh and Harsh, if drag isn't an issue, do tell us why Skylab isn't still in orbit today? ;)


(*) USA 193 is a very interesting object and the recent DoD/NSA decision to destroy it in orbit has a lot of questions surrounding it. Topic for another forum on another thread no doubt.

[Tom Robertson]

Everything under several hundred miles is still affected by the (very) tenuous dregs of the upper atmosphere. The effect of this thin gas is to slow objects down and eventually de-orbit them (witness all the little pieces of recently "shot down" USA 193 (*) - quite a few of them are still in orbit and being tracked by NORAD and a few of them have burned up every week since. If you have a NORAD Space-Track account, you can see the weekly changes and see which chunks have splashed in.

Part of the problem with drag estimates, however, is that it depends to a great degree of the density of the atmosphere - while it's considered a vacuum for most intents and purposes, most of low-Earth orbit (LEO) is not empty - there's enough gas molecules up there to affect objects appreciably over a period of months, weeks and occasionally days. The density of the upper atmosphere depends on average atmospheric temperature and therefore solar activity. While the solar cycles are well-understood, the daily, weekly and sometimes monthly activity varies a great deal from the mean and thus causes the very high upper atmosphere to contract or expand.
... (I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])

Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?

Thanks,
Tom

[curt8403]

(I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])

Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?

Thanks,
Tom

and what about parking a satellite at a Legrange point?

[LameLefty]

(I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])

Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?

Thanks,
Tom

Tom - that's a very good question and one I don't know off-hand. I suspect that it's pretty much at whatever altitude the atmosphere STOPS having a measurable effect (that is, an effect which shows up over the course of a few weeks or months), so probably somewhere between around 250 - 300 miles and 1,000 mile, but I'm totally going by intuition here. My friends at JSC would probably have a better answer and if I get a chance I'll see what they say.

Interestingly, solar pressure (as they call it) does affect comsats in GEO a good deal. Their large, highly-reflective solar arrays create tiny bits of thrust which must be offset by attitude control systems and periodic tiny reboost burns. This effect was first noted in the 60's and is the basis for the concept of solar sails in SF (and perhaps someday in practice).

[LameLefty]

and what about parking a satellite at a Legrange point?

Um, what about it? :) Solar pressure would have a fairly substantial effect over time, at least for anything big and reflective (which a spacecraft would have to be, for thermal control). So even something "parked" would have to have a small propulsion system.

[Alan Gordon]

Not to those that don't have their locals yet in HD.

AMEN!! Some of us are still waiting on SD-LIL....

~Alan

[curt8403]

Um, what about it? :) Solar pressure would have a fairly substantial effect over time, at least for anything big and reflective (which a spacecraft would have to be, for thermal control). So even something "parked" would have to have a small propulsion system.

but at least you would have no gravity issue to speak of. just solar pressure, which is much smaller that Gravity issues

[bridge]

My friends at JSC would probably have a better answer and if I get a chance I'll see what they say.

Interestingly, solar pressure (as they call it) does affect comsats in GEO a good deal. Their large, highly-reflective solar arrays create tiny bits of thrust which must be offset by attitude control systems and periodic tiny reboost burns. This effect was first noted in the 60's and is the basis for the concept of solar sails in SF (and perhaps someday in practice).

I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?

[LameLefty]

but at least you would have no gravity issue to speak of. just solar pressure, which is much smaller that Gravity issues

No, actually. Gravity is why a LaGrange point exists at all in a three-body problem. In this case, the three bodies are the Earth, Sun and moon. Unfortunately for L-points, these are all rotating bodies and in the case of the moon and Earth, have definite mascons (mass concentrations) that affect the gravitational field - it's not a point-source like you have to assume to do a 3-body analysis. So the L-points are really semi-stable, though some are more stable than others. Here's a decent explanation that's semi-understandable: http://www.physics.montana.edu/faculty/cornish/lagrange.html

[LameLefty]

I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?

A more precise answer to Tom's question about the point at which orbital drag is less important than solar pressure.

Though, I think given the variability in drag due to atmospheric density and coefficient of drag of different objects would seem to make this a hard question to give a very precise answer. Hmmm . . .

[turbrodude]

Block-DM plummet velocity to earth is nominal.

[Sixto]

As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads. :)

Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).

Good stuff.

[Tom Robertson]

I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?

Bridge, welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

As LameLefty said, at approximately what altitude does atmospheric drag reduce to where solar pressures are the greater force?

Given LameLefty's great description of atmospheric drag, I completely understand this is not going to be a precise point for all moving bodies, I'm very happy with rough, average numbers.

Thanks,
Tom

[LameLefty]

... I completely understand this is not going to be a precise point for all moving bodies, I'm very happy with rough, average numbers.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom, back when was a real spacecraft engineer, we called that a "SWAG" - Scientific Wild-A$$ Guess" - :lol:

[Greg Alsobrook]

Tom, back when was a real spacecraft engineer, we called that a "SWAG" - Scientific Wild-A$$ Guess" - :lol:

!rolling

[Daggett]

The other factor that impacts drag is the density of the object in question. The smaller and denser objects are, the lower the coefficient of drag; the larger and less dense, the higher the coefficient of drag. So fairing panels, being both large in surface area and light, would deorbit quickly even if they'd made it to an elliptical orbit, provided the perigee is less than about 300 miles (perhaps higher than that but not by an order of magnitude - something a thousand miles up will stay there a LONG time).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think density (or mass) of an object has any effect of the instantaneous drag coefficient or total drag force, assuming the objects have the same surface area and type. According to newton of course, a lighter object will slow down (deorbit) faster given the same force than a heavy object, but if two objects with the same drag parameters are going the same speed then they both experience the same drag force, regardless of their respective masses.

As LameLefty said, at approximately what altitude does atmospheric drag reduce to where solar pressures are the greater force?

I don't think there is a straight answer for altitude, because our magnetosphere deflects particles differently at different latitudes, ie, a polar orbiter will probably experience the most effects, equatorial, the least, depending on altitude.

[LameLefty]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think density (or mass) of an object has any effect of the instaneous drag coefficient or total drag force, assuming the objects have the same surface area and type. According to newton of course, a lighter object will slow down (deorbit) faster given the same force than a heavy object, but if two objects with the same drag parameters are going the same speed then they both experience the same drag force, regardless of their respective masses.

That's strictly true and it's how you calculate drag for, say, an airplane wing, when generally the magnitude of the force is all you care about usually. A better term is "ballistic coefficient" which takes into account both actual surface area and density. But in shorthand, a lot of folks just talk about "drag" when they mean "ballistic". Kind of like NASA pubic affairs types always talk about "speed" when they mean "velocity." "Speed" is technically a scalar, while "velocity" is a vector.

[bridge]

(I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])

Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?

Thanks,
Tom

Please note that I work for the Black Sheep of the JSC community, Medical Sciences Division (code SD), so I can't offer a long diatribe on positioning. I've sat in on briefings where orbital burn maneuvers were discussed and increased solar wind was never brought up as a cause (that's not to say it never has). It's usually due to a decaying orbit caused by normal fluctuations in LEO and/or known or unknown space debris in LEO...which is becoming more of a concern.

I can tell you that conditions (there is weather up there) in the upper atmosphere have an impact on the positioning of the ISS and solar disturbances can have a impact if its an extremely large disturbance. However, in my expereince solar wind conditions are tracked more for crew health and safety as it is protective against galactic radiation and the station as well as shuttle tracking will be adjusted to provide more (albeit limited) protection. For this reason crews and equipment are actually safer during increased solar activity.

[rotohead]

As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads. :)

Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).

Good stuff.

I feel lucky to just listen in. Thanks to all for your willingness to take the time to explain what you do at work...after you come home from work. Very grateful.
Chuck

[harsh]

But since that is along a curve, if you want "straight line" distance you need to do a little more geometry.;)Trigonometry makes the world go around.

chord length = 2r sin (angle/2)

[Blurayfan]

While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:

OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06

This is the Block DM.


The International designator is an internationally agreed-upon naming convention for satellites. The designator contains the launch year, the launch number of the year and the part of the launch, i.e., "A" indicates payload, "B" the rocket booster, or second payload, etc.

[curt8403]

with all the talk, but so little actually about d11, I think I have post separation anxiety :) :hurah:

[rotomike]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think density (or mass) of an object has any effect of the instantaneous drag coefficient or total drag force, assuming the objects have the same surface area and type. According to newton of course, a lighter object will slow down (deorbit) faster given the same force than a heavy object, but if two objects with the same drag parameters are going the same speed then they both experience the same drag force, regardless of their respective masses.



I don't think there is a straight answer for altitude, because our magnetosphere deflects particles differently at different latitudes, ie, a polar orbiter will probably experience the most effects, equatorial, the least, depending on altitude.

Welcome to the forum

[ActiveHDdave]

Yippy!! Here we go again with false alarms. Got to love that.

[Stuart Sweet]

Holy guacamole! This thread is way too mathematical for me! I'm glad to have friends like you guys who understand this stuff!

[hdtvfan0001]

Holy guacamole! This thread is way too mathematical for me! I'm glad to have friends like you guys who understand this stuff!
They had me at E=Mc2 :D

I'm more interested in 2 basic things:

1) When D11 is confirmed as a healthy bird
2) When the first content from D11 is sent down to us earthlings

Everything beyond that is Mr. Science stuff.... :eek2: :lol:

[audiomaster]

Just don't push the red button


What red butto.... Oops! Screen says "Control now moved to Echostar" What could that mean??:thats:

[mganga]

and here i thought this here forum was just about teevee, and now y'all got me thinkin' all 'bout vectors and the space/time continuum and stuff!

so, just to clarify...the solar wind will actually improve my HD signal?

[pbg]

I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?

Great – now you ask. After reviewing my NCAA bracket this PM, its evident I could have used a little assistance triangulating my college hoops picks yesterday :lol:

Just kidding, this thread is fascinating to read. I’m blown away at the level of knowledge of so many of the participants.

[smiddy]

So, this thread has grown so much. Does that mean that D11 has sent us some HD stuff yet?

[carl6]

so, just to clarify...the solar wind will actually improve my HD signal?

It depends entirely on which direction the (solar) wind is blowing :D

[azarby]

So, this thread has grown so much. Does that mean that D11 has sent us some HD stuff yet?

In your dreams.:new_smili

Bob

[MIAMI1683]

As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads. :)

Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).

Good stuff.

You got that right Sixto. After I read this thread I realize I have alot more to learn. Thanks again to everyone, and Lefty it's good to rea this stuff again.

D-

[smiddy]

In your dreams.:new_smili

Bob

Well, ok, mine are in vivid color and high definition, how about yours?

I saw September was the expected airing date, but I am hoping that is a missprint/typo from last years D10 airing and that D11 will be airing on or about May 3, 2008 (that's my Birthday and DirecTV would love to give me a Birthday Prezy :lol: ).

[rotomike]

September is just playing it safe. They will add channels all summer and then by September they can say we said what we were going to do and then some.

Most of these added channels are spotbeam locals which they test quite a bit and try to make sure they are right so each local will take time. They wont throw up 10 cities in April if thats what you guys hope. They had trouble with spotbeams on D10 and they will test theses out good before they go public. Look at the roll out of Locals from D-10 and see how slow they were. Im sticking with my guess from months ago which was on or around June 10th before we see any decent amount of channels(more then 4 national or 4 cities)

Mike

[Sing1gniS]

D11 will be airing on or about May 3, 2008 (that's my Birthday and DirecTV would love to give me a Birthday Prezy :lol: ).

My birthday also.

+1 for May 3rd date.

[twaller]

OK guys, my birthday is May 1. What about that?

[Stuart Sweet]

One thing you can count on is, when it does light up, someone here will find it before anyone else does :)

[njblackberry]

I think May 31 is the date.
My birthday :)

And Stuart has the correct answer!

[Button Pusher]

As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads. :)

Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).

Good stuff.

I feel lucky to just listen in. Thanks to all for your willingness to take the time to explain what you do at work...after you come home from work. Very grateful.
Chuck

I agree! Thanks to everyone willing to teach us some Rocket Science.

[Hdhead]

Do we know if the orbit has changed since the end of the block DM burn indicating thruster use on D11?

[Draconis]

One thing you can count on is, when it does light up, someone here will find it before anyone else does :)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Too true.

[harsh]

Well it was less then a year ago when we got the capacity.The promised capacity won't be here until they turn up D11.

[MIAMI1683]

The promised capacity won't be here until they turn up D11.

Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.

[azarby]

Well, ok, mine are in vivid color and high definition, how about yours?

I saw September was the expected airing date, but I am hoping that is a missprint/typo from last years D10 airing and that D11 will be airing on or about May 3, 2008 (that's my Birthday and DirecTV would love to give me a Birthday Prezy :lol: ).

Mine are in vivid color and also in High Def 3D.

Bob

[Mindcrime]

Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.


Im sure when I say this, I speak for a whole lot of D* customers. Get me my locals in HD. Im satisfied (for now) with the amount of national channels. Getting my locals in HD through D* is #1 on my priority list.

[Sixto]

Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.Totally agree.

Sitting around griping about a "promise" a long time ago, that got affected by a delay caused by a satellite that destructed at lift-off isn't exactly very productive.

D11 got up as quickly as was humanly possible following the unfortunate failed 2007 SeaLaunch launch followed by several month inspection and repair.

Now we move forward knowing that D11 is safely in orbit ... and about to be thoroughly tested ...

[tcusta00]

Guys, calm down, this isn't rocket science.

Oh wait.... never mind.... carry on. :lol:

[man_rob]

The promised capacity won't be here until they turn up D11.

And, you're worried about this why? D11 is in space, healthy, on track, and will be turned on soon. Meanwhile, they'll continue to add channels on D10. The grass really is greener on this side of the fence.

At least DirecTV didn't get this crew to run their program.
http://www.big13.net/images/liscolor.JPG
Dish Network's Satellite Team

[swans]

Im sure when I say this, I speak for a whole lot of D* customers. Get me my locals in HD. Im satisfied (for now) with the amount of national channels. Getting my locals in HD through D* is #1 on my priority list.

I've been trying to make that point for awhile. As DirecTV is a corporation that is profit driven. Our desires do not count.

[lwilli201]

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Latest numbers from Space-Track.

I got this far, now I have to figure out what to do with them. :lol: :lol:

I hope that 32729 is the correct number.

[Sixto]

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Latest numbers from Space-Track.

I got this far, now I have to figure out what to do with them. :lol: :lol:

I hope that 32729 is the correct number.same TLE as yesterday at 08080.579 ... middle of the day yesterday ... did post the location info from that TLE somewhere above (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1509553&postcount=272) ... will keep trying to also keep post #2 updated with the latest TLE ...

[davemayo]

Guys, calm down, this isn't rocket science.

Oh wait.... never mind.... carry on. :lol:

I was wondering how long it would take until this joke surfaced...still got me to chuckle. :D :lol:

[carl6]

I've been trying to make that point for awhile. As DirecTV is a corporation that is profit driven. Our desires do not count.

Collectively, our desires do count. If DirecTV does not attract and retain customers, then the profit will fall.

Carl

[smiddy]

One thing you can count on is, when it does light up, someone here will find it before anyone else does :)

There is no doubt about that, this community is solid when it comes to finding out things dealing with DirecTV...too kewl if you ask me!

[smiddy]

Guys, calm down, this isn't rocket science.

Oh wait.... never mind.... carry on. :lol:

How about some soup? :lol: I love your avatar man!

[smiddy]

And, you're worried about this why? D11 is in space, healthy, on track, and will be turned on soon. Meanwhile, they'll continue to add channels on D10. The grass really is greener on this side of the fence.

At least DirecTV didn't get this crew to run their program.
http://www.big13.net/images/liscolor.JPG
Dish Network's Satellite Team

Where is Dr. Smith?

[tcusta00]

How about some soup? :lol: I love your avatar man!

Thanks. Now no HD for you! Come back, one year!

NEEXXXT!

[smiddy]

Thanks. Now no HD for you! Come back, one year!

NEEXXXT!

Well, I guess no sense in whining about it sir, I'll wait one year, one year only. Then I bring guns and ammo. :D

Seriously though, I can't wait for this puppy to air some things out. How long does everyone think it will take for 99(c) to come up on our signal tests on our receivers? This CE, the next one, or perhaps the next one? I didn't pay any attention when D10 came on line, what heppened then?

[man_rob]

Where is Dr. Smith?

Quiet you clankering bucket of bolts!

http://gravybread.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/jonathan-harris-20.jpg

Oh dear!

[Earl Bonovich]

:backtotop please

[Sixto]

Seriously though, I can't wait for this puppy to air some things out. How long does everyone think it will take for 99(c) to come up on our signal tests on our receivers? This CE, the next one, or perhaps the next one? I didn't pay any attention when D10 came on line, what happened then?smiddy, I say 4/30/2008. Some say September. :)

[LameLefty]

Where is Dr. Smith?

I was about to comment that he was a stowaway and so not part of the crew (much like our own little stowaway who pops in to Directv threads periodically . . . ;) )

But in light of Earl's comment I won't. :D

* * * *

Now, has anyone managed to find more high-rez stills of the launch besides the one right as the Zenit is igniting on the launch platform?

[mhayes70]

smiddy, I say 4/30/2008. Some say September. :)

Also, didn't the guy from Directv at the dinner after the launch. I can't remember the guys name. But, he said 2 months before the satellite goes live. So, I agree with Sixto that sometime the end of April or beginning of May.

[Sixto]

Now, has anyone managed to find more high-rez stills of the launch besides the one right as the Zenit is igniting on the launch platform?Only two I've seen ...

http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-tall.jpg

http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-wide.jpg

Both beautiful!

[JeffBowser]

Well, I can't wait until we have real satellite info to discuss - this hand wringing over May versus September is tedious.

[turbrodude]

Are they going to have to upgrade the software in our receivers for D11? All I see is 99(s) but no 99(c) in the signal strength meters.

[man_rob]

Well, I can't wait until we have real satellite info to discuss - this hand wringing over May versus September is tedious.

After the AMC-14 debacle, I'm just happy our satellite up there, and everything is moving according to plan.

[sat2631]

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/tle-new.txt

DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 0.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 2.22983954 14
BLOCK DM-SL R/B
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 0.0608 1.7870 7325440 177.9562 88.4059 2.23796881 06

[JeffBowser]

Yeah, no kidding, same here.

Funny - I checked my transponders labels last night for the first time since D10 went live, looking to see if there was any update to the firmware to reflect D11.

After the AMC-14 debacle, I'm just happy our satellite up there, and everything is moving according to plan.

[Sixto]

32729 it is!!!!

http://www.n2yo.com/latest_launches.php

[Greg Alsobrook]

Tracking is now available on n2yo for Directv 11!

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729

[harsh]

If DirecTV does not attract and retain customers, then the profit will fall.That's the beauty of the two year commitment. As the "extras" (DVR, HD, protection plan, must-have premiums) make up more and more of the bill, the revenue stays stable even as the programming might drop off.

[harsh]

32729 it is!!!!You gotta love that latitude number.

[LameLefty]

You gotta love that latitude number.

Yep, but eccentricity is still too high compared to most of the GSO birds by an order of magnitude (small though it is).

[harsh]

Yep, but eccentricity is still too high compared to most of the GSO birds by an order of magnitude (small though it is).Circularizing the orbit is doubtless much easier than turning the orbit. The only difficulty is that you have to steer through existing satellites as your elliptical orbit passes through the Clarke belt altitude as your orbit is on the same plane.

Perhaps it is just six of one, half dozen of another.

[LameLefty]

Circularizing the orbit is doubtless much easier than turning the orbit. The only difficulty is that you have to steer through existing satellites as your elliptical orbit passes through the Clarke belt altitude as your orbit is on the same plane.


Ever heard the phrase, "Don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs?" ;)

Circularizing is no easier or harder than changing inclination of the orbit, just generally a lot more fuel-efficient. Each case is simply a matter of expending propellant. And you are vastly over-estimating how difficult is to to "steer through" existing satellites. They are dozens or more miles apart in most cases.

[gpg]

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Would someone please explain why an altitude of approximately 11,000 miles for DirecTV 11 is okay, but about 16,000 for AMC-14 is not? I thought GSO required about 22,300 miles.

[dms1]

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Would someone please explain why an altitude of approximately 11,000 miles for DirecTV 11 is okay, but about 16,000 for AMC-14 is not? I thought GSO required about 22,300 miles.D11 is still in an elliptical geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO). This means that it has an apogee (high point) at the right height, but the perigee (low point) is too low. It also has an inclination of zero degrees which is exactly where it needs to be. AMC-14 on the other hand is not in a GTO (its apogee is too low) and it has a massive inclination (51 degrees I think) which would need a lot of fuel to correct.

[gpg]

Thanks dms1. I didn't realize that D11 is still in GTO. Does anybody know when they're likely to move it to GSO?

[Tom Robertson]

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Would someone please explain why an altitude of approximately 11,000 miles for DirecTV 11 is okay, but about 16,000 for AMC-14 is not? I thought GSO required about 22,300 miles.

D11 is still in an elliptical geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO). This means that it has an apogee (high point) at the right height, but the perigee (low point) is too low. It also has an inclination of zero degrees which is exactly where it needs to be. AMC-14 on the other hand is not in a GTO (its apogee is too low) and it has a massive inclination (51 degrees I think) which would need a lot of fuel to correct.

What dms1 said. Thanks. :)

In transfer orbit, the point is to reach an orbit near the final orbit. AMC-14's transfer orbit attempt failed way too low. AMC-14 ranges from 450 miles to 16,000 miles. D11 ranges all the way up to 22,000 miles.

Cheers,
Tom

[moonman]

You can trak it now.....
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=32729

[Sixto]

You can trak it now.....
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=32729yep ... posted above ... btw, that's the TLE from yesterday mid-day ... awaiting new TLE ...

[RVD26]

Can someone please explain to me what this will mean for the average viewer?

I've been hearing about this satellite launch for a while now, but I still don't know how it will directly affect me.

[Earl Bonovich]

Can someone please explain to me what this will mean for the average viewer?

I've been hearing about this satellite launch for a while now, but I still don't know how it will directly affect me.

Plain and simple: More National HD Channels.... And More areas will get their locals in HD.

[ctaranto]

Slightly off topic.. The Odyssey is heading back to port..

http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/

-Craig

[Sixto]

Can someone please explain to me what this will mean for the average viewer?

I've been hearing about this satellite launch for a while now, but I still don't know how it will directly affect me.some info in post-2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1508286&postcount=2) ... do plan to make more user friendly over the weekend ...

[cartrivision]

yep ... posted above ... btw, that's the TLE from yesterday mid-day ... awaiting new TLE ...

It says that the TLE was last retrieved at March 21 2008 17:00 UTC, which is a little less than a an hour prior to your post time.

[bdowell]

Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.

No.

Military channel in HD please.

Comedy Central in HD please.

More HBO and Showtime channels in HD please.

There's a few other channels I'd love to see in HD too, so the answer is no. Bring on more HD!

[Sixto]

It says that the TLE was last retrieved at March 21 2008 17:00 UTC, which is a little less than a an hour prior to your post time.Yep, that's when they got the TLE.

The TLE itself has a time stamp. In this case 08080.57956083. Julian Date ... 3/20 .57 into the day ... TLE sometimes updated a few times a day ... other times takes days ... the only thing that counts is the time stamp in the TLE.

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

[tuff bob]

is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W

[SParker]

There is no such thing as to much HD!

[Button Pusher]

Slightly off topic.. The Odyssey is heading back to port..

http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/

-Craig

I wonder how many people have to ride the SLOW boat home?;)

[dms1]

I didn't realize that D11 is still in GTO.The giveaway is that you can see the satellite moving on the live tracking. With its zero degree inclination (latitude) it would appear stationary if the orbit had been circularized.

[tuff bob]

I wonder how many people have to ride the SLOW boat home?;)

hopefully DirecTV got them a honking big dish so they're catching the basketball :D

[RVD26]

Plain and simple: More National HD Channels.... And More areas will get their locals in HD.

some info in post-2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1508286&postcount=2) ... do plan to make more user friendly over the weekend ...

OK, thanks

I also keep hearing about the 99 transponder
Right now I get no signal at all from 99
Will I have any problems getting these new HD channels?

[Sixto]

All sites take a TLE from a certain exact point in time:

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

And then they extrapolate forward, until the next TLE is posted ... could be hours or days from TLE to TLE posting ...

These web-sites such as
http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
are not showing the exact satellite location.

It's an estimate based on the last known TLE.

The experts can explain further but that's what I learned from months of following D10.

[kitchj]

I'm bummed I missed the launch. They should put it on DOD or something.

[Sixto]

I also keep hearing about the 99 transponder
Right now I get no signal at all from 99
Will I have any problems getting these new HD channels?If you get a good signal from 101 and 103 (c) then you should be fine.

99 (s) today is only spot beams from Spaceway and there's a chance you're not in a spot.

The key is probably your signal on 103 (c). If 101 (center) and 103 (c) are perfect then you're probably in great shape. Obviously need the AT9 or AU9 dish.

[RVD26]

If you get a good signal from 101 and 103 (c) then you should be fine.

99 (s) today is only spot beams from Spaceway and there's a chance you're not in a spot.

The key is probably your signal on 103 (c). If 101 (center) and 103 (c) are perfect then you're probably in great shape. Obviously need the AT9 or AU9 dish.

I'm getting 95% from 101
However, I don't even have a 103(c) that comes up under satellite strength, only 103(a) and 103(b)
I don't get anything for 103(a), but I do get 96% for 103(b)
What does this mean?

[dms1]

is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W
No, because the satellite's orbit isn't currently synchronized to that of the Earth. Therefore, the longitude at apogee will change with each orbit.

[Sixto]

I'm getting 95% from 101
However, I don't even have a 103(c) that comes up under satellite strength, only 103(a) and 103(b)
I don't get anything for 103(a), but I do get 96% for 103(b)
What does this mean?What receiver? What dish?

The (c) is only on the HR2x I think. Show (a) and (b) on others.

[tuff bob]

No, because the satellite's orbit isn't currently synchronized to that of the Earth. Therefore, the longitude at apogee will change with each orbit.

that's my point. if we run the current TLE we'll get various longitudes at apogee, then we might be able to guess which orbit they might attempt to get D11 into GSO , and since we know the period of orbit, we might be able to estimate when. :D

[tuff bob]

The (c) is only on the HR2x I think. Show (a) and (b) on others.

(c) is a CE release. I think 103 (c) is the same as 103 (b) on national releases. It's been a while since I had a NR

[RVD26]

What receiver? What dish?

The (c) is only on the HR2x I think. Show (a) and (b) on others.

H20 Receiver and Slimline dish

[Sixto]

Just looked ...

103 (c) is only on the HR2x boxes. (c) is for CONUS (all of U.S.). (s) is the spot beams.

I thought "(c)" and "(s)" were added to the HR2x NR a while ago. Certainly on the HR21.

The H20/H21 still has the old (a) & (b) format.

99 (b) is Spotbeam.

103 (a) is Spotbeam.

103 (b) is CONUS (D10).

[Sixto]

H20 Receiver and Slimline dishThen the key for you is 101 Transponder 1 and 103 (b) Transponder 1.

If both high (90's) then you'll be fine for D11.

You should see at least transponders 1-14 on 103 (b) and maybe 17 and 22. If all high and 101 high then D11 should be fine.

D11 will be 99 (a) on the H20 I would guess. 99 (c) on the HR2x.

[n3ntj]

I'm bummed I missed the launch. They should put it on DOD or something.

Are they not showing it anymore on ch 573? It was on replay for at least a few days after the launch.

[tuff bob]

I'm bummed I missed the launch. They should put it on DOD or something.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QFZjYzk3RI0

[kocuba]

Not sure if this was added yet. But I just saw it on their website.

http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/images/dtv11-tall.jpg

[RVD26]

Then the key for you is 101 Transponder 1 and 103 (b) Transponder 1.

If both high (90's) then you'll be fine for D11.

You should see at least transponders 1-14 on 103 (b) and maybe 17 and 22. If all high and 101 high then D11 should be fine.

D11 will be 99 (a) on the H20 I would guess. 99 (c) on the HR2x.

Great
Thanks for all your help

[Carl Spock]

kocuba, that's been posted a couple of times so far. Go back to post#2 in this thread for a hi-rez verson.

It's still a purdy picture. :D

[kocuba]

kocuba, that's been posted a couple of times so far. Go back to post#2 in this thread for a hi-rez verson.

It's still a purdy picture. :D

Carl, Sorry about that! But when I saw that post originally it was not included. Looks like he added that and some other info just recently.

Again My apologize.

[Carl Spock]

No apology necessary, kocuba. :)

[ziltomil]

is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W
According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET

[tuff bob]

According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET

Nice - how did you figure that out? :D

[JeffBowser]

I'm certain it involved slide-rules, pocket protectors, a package of Twinkies, several Cokes, and Google......

:lol: I jest - I only wish I could do that math.

Nice - how did you figure that out? :D

[lwilli201]

According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET

Sounds good to me :confused: :grin: :rolleyes:

[LameLefty]

Nice - how did you figure that out? :D

I haven't run the TLE through an orbit simulator, but I guess that's when it will be at apogee or perigee (whichever one is "correct") - a burn at that time will affect the altitude 180 degrees around the orbit. So if the apogee is correct but perigee is too low, you burn at apogee to raise the perigee. Vice versa if it's the other way around.

On the other hand, as we discussed during D10's meanderings around the heavens last summer, there could be any number of small maneuvers in between the publicly-released TLEs (*) which we would be missing. So the best we can do is make educated guesses about what's going on right now.

(*) Speaking of which, I wonder why we went SOOOO long between TLE updates on D10. As I recall, it seems to me that we were getting test channels from 102.8 that weekend in September before we even realized D10 had made the final orbital maneuvers.

[tuff bob]

I haven't run the TLE through an orbit simulator, but I guess that's when it will be at apogee or perigee (whichever one is "correct") - a burn at that time will affect the altitude 180 degrees around the orbit. So if the apogee is correct but perigee is too low, you burn at apogee to raise the perigee. Vice versa if it's the other way around.

I don't think that is it

go here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VRW7eSc48rI

and move forward to about 4m55.

It seems like you burn your rockets close to the apogee (when its at the right height for GSO) to get it into the new orbit ...

[dms1]

It seems like you burn your rockets close to the apogee (when its at the right height for GSO) to get it into the new orbit ...Correct. Somewhat simplistically, what you are doing is speeding the satellite up so that it doesn't fall towards the earth as much as it progresses around its orbit, which effectively raises the perigee. Get it just right and the orbit will become circular.

[LameLefty]

Correct. Somewhat simplistically, what you are doing is speeding the satellite up so that it doesn't fall towards the earth as much as it progresses around its orbit, which effectively raises the perigee. Get it just right and the orbit will become circular.

Um, you just said the same thing I did, while agreeing with a guy who was contradicting me. :lol:

When you change an orbit, the net effects are seen 180 degrees around the orbit from the completion of the burn. If you could make instantaneous velocity changes (you cannot - net velocity change is acceleration x time), you would raise or lower perigee most efficiently by burning at apogee. Since velocity changes are never instantaneously, you use an iterative computational tool to model burns in small pieces - remember, every time you burn fuel you are accelerating. But acceleration itself changes because mass is going down over time as you burn the fuel.

[cartrivision]

Interestingly, right now as observed from earth, D11 is slowly traveling "backwards" (east to west), as it is usually traveling west to east relative to the earth.

[tuff bob]

Um, you just said the same thing I did, while agreeing with a guy who was contradicting me. :lol


it is rocket science guys. I guess I don't think of it as a process of increasing the perigee, but transitioning from a elipitical orbit to a circular orbit by accelerating at the GSO height.

[LameLefty]

it is rocket science guys. I guess I don't think of it as a process of increasing the perigee, but transitioning from a elipitical orbit to a circular orbit by accelerating at the GSO height.

The problem with that statement (without clarification) is, unless the apogee of the elliptical orbit is also GSO altitude, all you'll do is modify the orbit, not necessarily circularize it at the appropriate altitude. I'm not sure if that's very clearly written, I'm sorry. I'm hungry and waiting for pizza at the moment. :D

[LameLefty]

Interestingly, right now as observed from earth, D11 is slowly traveling "backwards" (east to west), as it is usually traveling west to east relative to the earth.

If the TLE is accurate, that means the orbit has an apogee greater than GSO-altitude.

[rotomike]

It went up and its going around and it will finally rest. 1+1=2 that will make some of you feel better after reading some heavy duty rocket science.:lol:

Mike

[Daggett]

I would imagine it will take several burns to circularize the orbit as I believe it has a very, very small main engine. To raise the perigee you have to burn prograde (with your orbit) at apogee to increase your velocity and thus raise you perigee. I believe they will leave it in a slightly less than GSO orbit until it is in the right longitude and then fully circularize, and use the XIPS to fine tune.

For those of you that are interested in orbital mechanics, I suggest you check out a simulator called Orbiter (google it, first result). I have been playing with that sim for years and it taught me a lot about how space travel really works. I must warn you that it has a fair learning curve though, an understanding of simple mechanics helps.

Interestingly, right now as observed from earth, D11 is slowly traveling "backwards" (east to west), as it is usually traveling west to east relative to the earth.
Yeah, because it's in such an eccentric orbit, it's ground track will appear to loop on a ground map, at apogee it will appear to move west from the surface, at perigee it will appear to move very quickly east (faster than LEO satellites).

If the TLE is accurate, that means the orbit has an apogee greater than GSO-altitude.
From what I've observed when I recreated this mission in Orbiter, with an apogee of 35790 km altitude you do indeed start moving west with respect to the surface, even though your altitude is where it should be. I think it's because your orbital velocity is rather low at that point and the earth is rotating faster at that instant than your orbital velocity.

[cartrivision]

From what I've observed when I recreated this mission in Orbiter, with an apogee of 35790 km altitude you do indeed start moving west with respect to the surface, even though your altitude is where it should be. I think it's because your orbital velocity is rather low at that point and the earth is rotating faster at that instant than your orbital velocity.

According to the tracker at http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729, right now it's only at 35300km (and still rising) while it is going "backwards".

[dms1]

I would imagine it will take several burns to circularize the orbit as I believe it has a very, very small main engine. To raise the perigee you have to burn prograde (with your orbit) at apogee to increase your velocity and thus raise you perigee. I believe they will leave it in a slightly less than GSO orbit until it is in the right longitude and then fully circularize, and use the XIPS to fine tune.
According to the Sea Launch site the target orbital apogee for the GTO was 36482 km. Therefore, it looks like they are actually going for slightly above GSO for positioning and then dropping it down.

[Paul A]

I'm certain it involved slide-rules, pocket protectors, a package of Twinkies, several Cokes, and Google......

Twinkies Consumption: Nominal

[Daggett]

According to the tracker at right now it's only at 35300km (and still rising) while it is going "backwards".
Close enough. :)

According to the Sea Launch site the target orbital apogee for the GTO was 36482 km. Therefore, it looks like they are actually going for slightly above GSO for positioning and then dropping it down.
Yeah, that's true. You could go either way, I'm not sure what make one better than the other.

[njblackberry]

Twinkies Consumption: Nominal

Russian translation please?

[lwilli201]

Russian translation please?

More Vodka. :D

[njblackberry]

At 22,310 miles and it is still going...

[LameLefty]

On thing you need to remember when you visualize an orbit (especially one that is fairly eccentric - e.g., more elliptical) is that the plane of the orbit, while equatorial, is can still be considered "fixed" in space, at least relative to the Earth's surface.

Think about it this way: imagine such an orbit with an apogee directly over the desired "slot". The perigee will be 180 degrees around the planet, wherever that is. However, at this point the orbit is NOT geostationary and not even (probably) geosynchronous (e.g., it does not have a period of 23h56m04s). So this means that as the Earth rotates beneath this "fixed" path for the sat, the apparent ground track will vary: the points of apogee and perigee as visualized against the Earth's surface will be different for each orbit. Depending on the specifics of the exact orbital path, at any given time the apparent ground track will move around, sometimes quite a bit. Anyone remember the ground tracks I and others posted concerning D10's wanderings?

Anyway, hope this helps a bit.

[JeffBowser]

:lol: I love that word now, especially with the Rusky female accent.

Twinkies Consumption: Nominal

[LameLefty]

:lol: I love that word now, especially with the Rusky female accent.

Back in law school I had a girlfriend who had a BA, MA and most of a Ph.D. in Russian. When she was feeling naughty she affected a Russian accent . . . it was very sexy. :grin:

(Too many Cold War spy movies when I was growing up I guess :lol:)

[syphix]

Back in law school I had a girlfriend who had a BA, MA and most of a Ph.D. in Russian. When she was feeling naughty she affected a Russian accent . . . it was very sexy. :grin:

(Too many Cold War spy movies when I was growing up I guess :lol:)Now, that is WAAAAAYYY off topic!! ;)

:backtotop (what was it anyway??)

[cartrivision]

At 22,310 miles and it is still going...

It peaked out at a little bit above 22,600 miles before it started going downhill again.

[wilmot3]

what is the best program to use to insert tle's into to figure the orbit?

[JeffBowser]

Dang, I have a new hero !
:D

Back in law school I had a girlfriend who had a BA, MA and most of a Ph.D. in Russian. When she was feeling naughty she affected a Russian accent . . . it was very sexy. :grin:

(Too many Cold War spy movies when I was growing up I guess :lol:)

[Blurayfan]

DirecTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Updated: March 22 2008 00:00 UTC or March 21 2008 8:00PM EDT

[Sixto]

DirecTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Updated: March 22 2008 00:00 UTC or March 21 2008 8:00PM EDTThat's the same TLE as keeps getting posted all day.

The actual time stamp is in the TLE ... it's from yesterday 08080.57956083 ... julian date ... no new TLE yet today ...

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

[Blurayfan]

That's the same TLE as keeps getting posted all day.

The actual time stamp is in the TLE ... it's from yesterday 08080.57956083 ... julian date ... no new TLE yet today ...

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html
Just discovered this after comparing the TLEs posted earlier.
This was taken from N2Yo they apparently just refreshed their TLE details an hour ago with the data already known to those here. Notice below the page was just refreshed but the data hasn't changed.

Two Line Element Set (TLE):


1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14


Last time retrieved: March 22 2008 01:00 UTC

[Sixto]

Just discovered this after comparing the TLEs posted earlier.
This was taken from N2Yo they apparently just refreshed their TLE details an hour ago with the data already known to those here. Notice below the page was just refreshed but the data hasn't changed.Yep, they refresh every few hours or less but keep retrieving the same TLE until it actually changes.

[donshan]

That's the same TLE as keeps getting posted all day.

The actual time stamp is in the TLE ... it's from yesterday 08080.57956083 ... julian date ... no new TLE yet today ...

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

Hi, to the orbital experts here again. As the amateur astronomer learning about orbits from you, from please let me help avoid the confusion about dates that occurred during the D10 TLE analyses. The term "Julian date" has been used by astronomers to number days for centuries. However "Julian day numbers"change at 12:00(noon) UT, whereas the day number used in the TLE changes days at midnight . Let's avoid confusion by not using the term Julian days in relation to TLE day numbers.

And now back to the excitement of watching D11!


Don

[HoTat2]

Yep, that's when they got the TLE.

The TLE itself has a time stamp. In this case 08080.57956083. Julian Date ... 3/20 .57 into the day ... TLE sometimes updated a few times a day ... other times takes days ... the only thing that counts is the time stamp in the TLE.

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

Just discovered this after comparing the TLEs posted earlier.
This was taken from N2Yo they apparently just refreshed their TLE details an hour ago with the data already known to those here. Notice below the page was just refreshed but the data hasn't changed.

Two Line Element Set (TLE):


1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14


Last time retrieved: March 22 2008 01:00 UTC

Actually, I don’t really even bother looking at the time-stamp listed in the TLE. But instead first look at the last entry in line 1 ("30") which is the "element set number" that denotes the sequence number for successive satellite TLEs. Therefore the next new TLE set for D11 should read as "31" otherwise I ignore it.

[raw121]

Actually, I don’t really even bother looking at the time-stamp listed in the TLE. But instead first look at the last entry in line 1 ("30") which is the "element set number" that denotes the sequence number for successive satellite TLEs. Therefore the next new TLE set for D11 should read as "31" otherwise I ignore it.

If I read the tle format page correctly the next one will be "4X", with X being a checksum. Still a very good tip.

[Sixto]

Let's avoid confusion by not using the term Julian days in relation to TLE day numbers.You're correct.

The exact description is actually:

Element Set Epoch

The first two digits ('04') indicate the year. Add 1900 for years >= 57, and 2000 for all others.
The remainder of the field ('236.56031392') is the day of the year.

I usually use "julian date" because that's what most people understand.

[Sixto]

Wonder if this is in preparation for D11:

"On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification of the SPACEWAY 2 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the SPACEWAY 2 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.115º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink))."

[Sander]

Possible plans for DirecTV-11:

Balancing of HD between D10 and D11
Move the 9 legacy MPEG2 HD to MPEG4

74 - Universal HD
78 - HDNet Movies
79 - HDNet
206/73 - ESPN HD
209/72 - ESPN2 HD
245/75 - TNT HD
281/76 - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater)
501/70/509 - HBO East HD
537/71/543 - Showtime East HD

Add additional HBO HD channels (per the previous HBO announcement)
All of the new premium sports packages will be MPEG4 (ex: Sunday Ticket, ...)
East and West DNS all to MPEG4 (West already announced)
99 - PPV HD (MPEG2) eventually shut down
A few may need to wait for D11 (or may be added to D10 when D11 is safely in orbit)

290 - Disney Channel HD
292 - Toon Disney HD
297 - Boomerang HD
307 - ESPNEWS HD (http://www.espnmediazone.com/press_releases/2007_10_oct/20071015_ESPNEWSHDtoLaunchinMarch2008.htm)
311 - ABC Family

Others that may be available (Travel Channel HD, more movie HD premiums, ...)
Lots more HD LIL (at least 100 HD LIL by year-end 2008 - 84% of U.S.)



How about 356 MSNBC? Love to see them compete against CNN in HD.

[LameLefty]

Wonder if this is in preparation for D11:

"On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification of the SPACEWAY 2 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the SPACEWAY 2 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.115º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink))."

Almost certainly. Good find. :up:

I've been getting my (Nashville) locals from Spaceway 2 on transponder 2. I ought to check my signal strength to see if if's changed in the last few days from the usual of 98 or so.

I'll check after I finish watching "Apollo 13" on DVD for the 18th time. :p It'll be CE time then anyway.

[Paul A]

When do they roll out the solar panels?

[Sixto]

Almost certainly. Good find. :up:

I've been getting my (Nashville) locals from Spaceway 2 on transponder 2. I ought to check my signal strength to see if if's changed in the last few days from the usual of 98 or so.

I'll check after I finish watching "Apollo 13" on DVD for the 18th time. :p It'll be CE time then anyway.Found the D11 info ...

Date Filed: 10/10/2007 14:21:39:79600

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC has filed a modification application to relocate its DIRECTV 11 satellite from its currently assigned location at 99.2 W.L. to 99.225 W.L., and to operate DIRECTV 11 in the 29.25-29.5 GHz, 28.35-28.6 GHz frequencies for Earth-to-Space transmissions and the 18.3-18.8 GHz frequency band for Space-to-Earth transmissions."

[LameLefty]

Found the D11 info ...

Date Filed: 10/10/2007 14:21:39:79600

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC has filed a modification application to relocate its DIRECTV 11 satellite from its currently assigned location at 99.2 W.L. to 99.225 W.L., and to operate DIRECTV 11 in the 29.25-29.5 GHz, 28.35-28.6 GHz frequencies for Earth-to-Space transmissions and the 18.3-18.8 GHz frequency band for Space-to-Earth transmissions."

Good find #2 for tonight. :goodjob: I did check my signal strength tonight and it's actually up to 99 on tp 2 for 99(s). That's a new one on me - I've never, ever seen it so high. That little nudge to Spaceway 2 worked to my advantage. :lol: