Sixto Report-D11 Status: In Operation July 31, 2008

[rotomike]

Here is a cut and paste from December 19th some 5 months ago. We will see how I did with my prediction.


Originally Posted by rotomike
Im going out on a limb here saying we(regular customer) wont see any HD feeds from D11 until at least June. We will look back at this thread to see how far off I am but my prediction is June 10th

Mike

You very well could be right, give or take a few weeks into May or (hopefully not) into July.

Happy Holidays!
Tom

[mcbeevee]

How did I miss this post yesterday?
I hate it when work gets in the way of important stuff...
(Glad to hear the update D-11. You can send a signal to my home anytime you want.)
Do you think D-11 will startup the same day as Indy 4...May 22?

:D

[Indiana627]

Do you think D-11 will startup the same day as Indy 4...May 22?

:D
I like the way you think! Maybe D11 will beam Indy IV directly to our homes in HD!

[tuff bob]

Yep, +138km ... still chugging along at that ~6km/hour, ~150km/day pace ... patience ...

4000 miles/hour never seemed so slow!!!!

[Sixto]

TLE#65 ... +163km ...
DirecTV-11(TLE65)
1 32729U 08013A 08129.13793914 -.00000219 00000-0 00000+0 0 658
2 32729 000.0918 277.0699 0515817 284.7988 351.3065 00.99720509 617

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-08-2008 03:18:37
Orbit # at Epoch 61
Inclination 0.092
RA of A. Node 277.070
Eccentricity 0.0515817
Argument of Perigee 284.799
Revs per day 0.99720509
Period 24h 04m 02s (1444.3 min)
Semi-major axis 42 320 km
Perigee x Apogee 33 759 x 38 125 km
Element number / age 65 / 0 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33 759 x 38 125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)
TLE#61 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) 33,276 x 38,434 km (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[jefbal99]

4000 miles/hour never seemed so slow!!!!

um, 6km/hour equates to 3.728 mph

[katzeye]

um, 6km/hour equates to 3.728 mph


I suspect they were referring to the GSO speed, no the rate of the transfer orbit.

[bubbers44]

I think they are getting serious now. Latest shows the most western drift of oscillation at 90 W and western drift at 2.3 degrees per day, 138 miles per day, so maybe in a week we will be in the very fine tuning portion of parking.

[DCappy]

Day 49.4, TLE#65, 13:42:54 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 163km and has 2,027km to go.
Apogee decreased 11km and has 2,339km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 154.7km per day or 6.4km per hour. A slight increase.

14.7 more days or Thursday, May 22 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

[crashHD]

Your avatar frightens me.

[grump]

Your avatar frightens me.

That's no avatar. That's a webcam.

[Maruuk]

So we should expect a dramatic expansion of HD-LILs within what, 2-4 months? Or more like 6+ months?

[stoutman]

I have no inside knowledge, but a huge marketing campaign will ensue in late Aug or early Sept. in advance of the new tv season. I would put a lot of money on it. I would say many, if not all D11, local markets would be on by then.

[Indiana627]

I have no inside knowledge, but a huge marketing campaign will ensue in late Aug or early Sept. in advance of the new tv season. I would put a lot of money on it. I would say many, if not all D11, local markets would be on by then.
Hey, my mom is from Marion! I haven't been there in years though. We used to go a lot when I was a kid to visit my two uncles, but they have since moved.

OK, Indy :backtotop

[moonman]

Perhaps, a little off-topic.... SeaLaunch..Preparations are now underway for the launch of Intelsat’s Galaxy 18 communications satellite in May. Weighing 4,642 kg (10,234 lb), this satellite will enable Intelsat to provide advanced cable television, data and telecommunications services to customers throughout North America and Hawaii. Next up..EchoStar11 -in June ......
http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/

[bakers12]

Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)

[computersecguy]

Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)

Check out http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729 it is ~ at 86 degrees west. I didn't check but it is using tle 65 which I think is nearly the most current. In any regards the window of +/- the final destination is slowly closing.

Are we there yet? - Sorry just had to do that

[Ken984]

new tle
1 32729U 08013A 08130.11767759 -.00000234 00000-0 00000+0 0 664
2 32729 000.0783 273.3389 0513891 289.7368 342.5123 00.99882596 622

Name DIRECTV 11
NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 2008-05-09 02:49:27
Orbit # at Epoch 62
Inclination 0.078
RA of A. Node 273.339
Eccentricity 0.0513891
Argument of Perigee 289.737
Revs per day 0.99882596
Period 24h 01m 41s (1441.68 min)
Semi-major axis 42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee 33 724 x 38 069 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 342.512
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 66 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A

[Ken984]

"current" position as of 1142 cdt today, according to orbitron

1DIRECTV 11
Lon 85.8658° W
Lat 0.0861° N
Alt (km) 38 041.830
Azm 165.4°
Elv 51.7°
RA 02h 14m 33s
Decl -4° 52' 01"
Range (km) 39 234.110
RRt (km/s) -0.031
Vel (km/s) 2.919
Direction Descending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 190.5° (135)
TA 189.5°
Orbit # 63
Mag (illum) ? (4%)
Constellation Cet
2Sun
Azm 121.1°
Elv 65.0°
RA 03h 07m 49s
Decl 17° 35' 18"
Lon 71.4587° W
Lat 17.5838° N
Range (km) 151 051 434
Constellation Ari
3Moon
Azm 70.5°
Elv 15.9°
RA 07h 23m 00s
Decl 24° 41' 47"
Lon 8.3072° W
Lat 25.1268° N
Range (km) 366 920
Illum 28%
Phase Waxing crescent
Constellation Gem

[dms1]

Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)Just download Orbitron and put in the current TLE. You can see real time tracking or do a simulation to judge the future location.

[cartrivision]

Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)

Check out the ground track picture here:

http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CDT

Keep in mind that at times it is still moving in an easterly direction. It's a little hard to see, but there is a thicker white line along the equator which represents the ground track. As of today, it looks like it's moving back and forth in an 11 degree arc between about 80 and 91 degrees west.

[bakers12]

Thanks, cartrivision. I don't usually use that web site, but it has exactly what I was looking for. I had better bookmark that one.

I appreciate the input from you others, too.

[DCappy]

Day 50.4, TLE#66, 23:30:27 since the last TLE.

Perigee decreased 35km and has 2,062km to go.
Apogee decreased 56km and has 2,283km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 145.9km per day or 6.1km per hour. It slowed in the last 24 hours. They move it for two days and then let it orbit for a day.

15.2 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

[Sixto]

new tle ...the updated tracking with Ken984 ... yep, the perigee did go down ...
DirecTV-11(TLE66)
1 32729U 08013A 08130.11767759 -.00000234 00000-0 00000+0 0 664
2 32729 000.0783 273.3389 0513891 289.7368 342.5123 00.99882596 622

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-09-2008 02:49:27
Orbit # at Epoch 62
Inclination 0.078
RA of A. Node 273.339
Eccentricity 0.0513891
Argument of Perigee 289.737
Revs per day 0.99882596
Period 24h 01m 41s (1441.68 min)
Semi-major axis 42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee 33 724 x 38 069 km
Element number / age 66 / 0 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[bubbers44]

Does anyone know the strategy of decreasing the perigee at this time increasing the time to docking? Does it have something to do with making a circular orbit vs eliptical? It seems to be going the opposite direction. This is rocket science stuff so there must be a reason.

[sat2631]

Anything less than 100 km is probably just a measurement correction and not an actual satellite movement.

[bubbers44]

That might be why. Up to now everything was closing in on parking soon.

[bobnielsen]

I suspect that a lot of the posted changes have been measurement corrections.

[richall01]

It looks like DirecTV 11 is in "parking mode"?

[MIAMI1683]

It looks like DirecTV 11 is in "parking mode"?

why would you think that. all calculations point at atleast another week i believe.

[richall01]

why would you think that. all calculations point at atleast another week i believe.

Key word "parking" ready to move it to it's final location and when. Then when will we something from it? Three months seems like a long time to have it "parked"?

[Athlon646464]

Key word "parking" ready to move it to it's final location and when. Then when will we something from it? Three months seems like a long time to have it "parked"?

It's not parked - it's being moved a little at a time until it is parked. Then it's about 2 weeks of testing, another 2 weeks of tweaking, and then maybe live. (Parked late May, Live around the end of June or early July.)

[smiddy]

I still can't wait! :p

[Ken984]

new tle
1 32729U 08013A 08130.82014367 -.00000234 00000-0 00000+0 0 673
2 32729 000.1095 267.4163 0450644 296.1218 234.4985 00.99892930 634
perigee +229 apogee -327km

Name DIRECTV 11
NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 2008-05-09 19:41:00
Orbit # at Epoch 63
Inclination 0.109
RA of A. Node 267.416
Eccentricity 0.0450644
Argument of Perigee 296.122
Revs per day 0.99892930
Period 24h 01m 32s (1441.53 min)
Semi-major axis 42 271 km
Perigee x Apogee 33 988 x 37 798 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 234.498
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 67 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A

1DIRECTV 11
Lon 90.9592° W
Lat 0.1073° S
Alt (km) 34 717.670
Azm 174.8°
Elv 51.9°
RA 10h 00m 20s
Decl -5° 33' 13"
Range (km) 35 886.128
RRt (km/s) -0.110
Vel (km/s) 3.157
Direction Descending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 310.2° (220)
TA 306.1°
Orbit # 64
Mag (illum) ? (59%)
Constellation Sex
2Sun
Azm 289.6°
Elv 2.9°
RA 03h 13m 56s
Decl 18° 03' 51"
Lon 167.6471° E
Lat 17.9299° N
Range (km) 151 097 310
Constellation Ari
3Moon
Azm 235.4°
Elv 69.8°
RA 08h 36m 37s
Decl 19° 47' 58"
Lon 111.0617° W
Lat 20.0203° N
Range (km) 369 645
Illum 42%
Phase First quarter
Constellation Cnc

[jefbal99]

Good movement, getting closer and closer

[Sixto]

new tle ...
cool ... another 264km in 16.9 hours ... moving nicely!
Projection: 12.10 more days at day#63.19 (@6.19km/hour, past 18 TLE Avg)

DirecTV-11(TLE67)
1 32729U 08013A 08130.82014367 -.00000234 00000-0 00000+0 0 673
2 32729 000.1095 267.4163 0450644 296.1218 234.4985 00.99892930 634

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-09-2008 19:41:00
Orbit # at Epoch 63
Inclination 0.110
RA of A. Node 267.416
Eccentricity 0.0450644
Argument of Perigee 296.122
Revs per day 0.99892930
Period 24h 01m 32s (1441.53 min)
Semi-major axis 42 271 km
Perigee x Apogee 33 988 x 37 798 km
Element number / age 67 / 1 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[Sixto]

In the spreadsheet with the progress of DirecTV-11, have also been keeping a "past 18 TLE moving average" with arrival projection.

Figured would cut-paste here.

Been fairly consistent for the past few weeks ... also added it to the summary at each TLE.
Past-18
Average Days to Day# / Date
TLE# km/hour Arrival of Arrival
52 6.03 24.08 63.81 (5/21)
53 5.22 27.94 69.08 (5/27)
54 5.76 23.05 64.93 (5/22)
55 6.28 20.42 62.62 (5/20)
56 6.35 20.04 62.49 (5/20)
57 6.08 21.00 63.64 (5/21)
58 5.92 21.58 64.30 (5/22)
59 6.08 20.92 63.69 (5/21)
60 6.06 19.30 63.84 (5/21)
61 6.27 16.67 63.44 (5/21)
62 6.31 15.49 62.88 (5/20)
63 6.28 15.44 63.37 (5/21)
64 6.08 15.01 63.85 (5/21)
65 6.64 12.72 62.13 (5/20)
66 5.91 14.52 64.91 (5/22)
67 6.19 12.10 63.19 (5/21)

[DCappy]

Day 51.1, TLE#67, 16:51:33 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 264km and has 1,798km to go.
Apogee decreased 271km and has 2,012km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 153.29km per day or 6.4km per hour. They move it for two days and then let it orbit for a day.

12.6 more days or Thursday, May 22 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

[HelenWeathers]

I'm getting readings on my receivers (H20-100) from what appears the be the 99b transponders and wonder if they are real and if anyone else is getting them. Here's what I'm seeing:

Satellite Transponders (6 Total at 99 (b))
1-8 0 84 0 68 0 76

I live in Maimi, Florida and have the Slimline 5 lnb dish.

[computersecguy]

Nope, the 99b is the existing satellite for I believe local spots. For H20 owners we should see a 99a or maybe depending on if they upgrade software to like the HR versions, it will be a 99(c) for conus.

[JeffBowser]

I have a 99S on my HR20, 0 95 0 84 0 96 in Boca. Nothing to do with D11, though.


I'm getting readings on my receivers (H20-100) from what appears the be the 99b transponders and wonder if they are real and if anyone else is getting them. Here's what I'm seeing:

Satellite Transponders (6 Total at 99 (b))
1-8 0 84 0 68 0 76

I live in Maimi, Florida and have the Slimline 5 lnb dish.

[HelenWeathers]

I was under the impression that D11 was the 99 degree satellite and thought I might be getting readings from it already.

[Jeremy W]

I was under the impression that D11 was the 99 degree satellite and thought I might be getting readings from it already.
D11 will be at 99 degrees when it's parked, but Spaceway 2 is already there doing spot beams, so that's what you're seeing.

[HelenWeathers]

D11 will be at 99 degrees when it's parked, but Spaceway 2 is already there doing spot beams, so that's what you're seeing.

Thanks, Jeremy. Now I understand the readings.

[Michael D'Angelo]

Thanks, Jeremy. Now I understand the readings.

To add to what Jeremy has already said when D11 starts sending us signals you will have another SAT reading in the list just like how SAT 103 has two.

[Herdfan]

when D11 starts sending us signals you will have another SAT reading in the list just like how SAT 103 has two.

And you won't be able to get onto DBSTalk as the server load will be peaked.;)

[smiddy]

And you won't be able to get onto DBSTalk as the server load will be peaked.;)

Much like the signals... :D

[Jeremy W]

Much like the signals... :D
Hopefully. When D10 lit up, a lot of people discovered that their signals were far from peaked.

[LameLefty]

Hopefully. When D10 lit up, a lot of people discovered that their signals were far from peaked.

It might get interesting around here when D11 goes into service, or it might not. In other words, if D11 is used to load-balance some of the national HD channels and relieve D10, then a lot of folks are going to have to worry about 99(c) signals. On the other hand, if the very first use of D11 is to push out some more LIL HD channels to long-delayed DMAs, then 99(s) signals will be important but only in those target markets.

In reality, there will probably be a bit of both going on more or less simultaneously.

[smiddy]

Hopefully. When D10 lit up, a lot of people discovered that their signals were far from peaked.

Yeah, but I'm suspecting that the alignment was far from on axis. It will be similar for D11 until it gets tweaked into position and antennas are aligned. ;)

It might get interesting around here when D11 goes into service, or it might not. In other words, if D11 is used to load-balance some of the national HD channels and relieve D10, then a lot of folks are going to have to worry about 99(c) signals. On the other hand, if the very first use of D11 is to push out some more LIL HD channels to long-delayed DMAs, then 99(s) signals will be important but only in those target markets.

In reality, there will probably be a bit of both going on more or less simultaneously.

The next few days should be interesting...I can't wait to see how it all unfolds.

[doctor j]

It's now almost 3 days since last TLE.
Wonder if DirecTv/Boing is doing that:
"delay TLE's till parked manuver " that they did with D-10 ??
If no TLE today I'll be real suspicious that we're close

Doctor j

[grump]

It's now almost 3 days since last TLE.
Wonder if DirecTv/Boing is doing that:
"delay TLE's till parked manuver " that they did with D-10 ??
If no TLE today I'll be real suspicious that we're close

Doctor j

Or it could be that they let their engineers have the weekend off to go see their moms.

:D :D

[jefbal99]

It's now almost 3 days since last TLE.
Wonder if DirecTv/Boing is doing that:
"delay TLE's till parked manuver " that they did with D-10 ??
If no TLE today I'll be real suspicious that we're close

Doctor j

But with D10, the orbit was circular and they just had to move it from the testing slot to the broadcasting slot.

We've still got another ~10-14 days. I'm guessing we'll see a couple of TLEs today that indicate very little outside of the normal 150km/day that we have been seeing all along.

Slightly off topic, but i will be very interested in E*s launch of E11 from sea launch this summer. I want to see how fast they park it at for GSO. D* is going slow and steady, maybe charlie will play fast and loose ;)

[smiddy]

Slightly off topic, but i will be very interested in E*s launch of E11 from sea launch this summer. I want to see how fast they park it at for GSO. D* is going slow and steady, maybe charlie will play fast and loose ;)

If it were me, I'd be risk adverse considering the last satellite they went with.

D11 however is going at a slow pace which to us observers is maddening, but lessens the risks and is smart to do given the critical nature of this with regard to satellites.

[Sixto]

tle # 68 ... +123km ...

Projection: 5/23/08 05:54am - 11.78 days at Day# 64.52 at 5.92km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE68)
1 32729U 08013A 08132.47049921 -.00000216 00000-0 00000+0 0 681
2 32729 000.1090 272.8315 0426910 292.2432 105.7588 00.99809762 643

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-11-2008 11:17:31
Orbit # at Epoch 64
Inclination 0.109
RA of A. Node 272.832
Eccentricity 0.0426910
Argument of Perigee 292.243
Revs per day 0.99809762
Period 24h 02m 44s (1442.73 min)
Semi-major axis 42 295 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 111 x 37 722 km
Element number / age 68 / 1 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[tpm1999]

The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.

[MIAMI1683]

The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.

:confused: :confused:

[feschiver]

Dish just said they would have add them but not when:grin:

[P Smith]

Dish just said they would have add them but not when:grin:
OFF TOPIC !
Better if you'll continue here (http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=128348).

[grump]

The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.

Are you sure you don't have that last sentence backwards? When did Dish overtake Directv in number of HD channels?

[smiddy]

I don't think Dish has overtaken DirecTV yet, if they can at all.

That being said, once D11 is available nothing will touch DirecTV for quite some time depending on the availability of HD content providers.

[LameLefty]

I don't think Dish has overtaken DirecTV yet, if they can at all.

That being said, once D11 is available nothing will touch DirecTV for quite some time depending on the availability of HD content providers.

Of course, if they compress the bejesus out of the signal, they can still send something that will display at 720p or 1080i and call it "HD" . . . :p

After their misfortune with the launch of their most recent satellite (leased or not, they were still gonna use it), I don't know how else they could add a whole lot at this point.

[smiddy]

Of course, if they compress the bejesus out of the signal, they can still send something that will display at 720p or 1080i and call it "HD" . . . :p

Yep, I considered mentioning this but erred on the side that it would turn into a pissing match about HD-Lite and we all know where that goes! :D

After their misfortune with the launch of their most recent satellite (leased or not, they were still gonna use it), I don't know how else they could add a whole lot at this point.

I know I would be scrambling to make things competitive too if I were the owner of either sat caster. By what ever means needed to become numero uno! ;)

[bruinfever]

Of course, if they compress the bejesus out of the signal, they can still send something that will display at 720p or 1080i and call it "HD" . . . :p

After their misfortune with the launch of their most recent satellite (leased or not, they were still gonna use it), I don't know how else they could add a whole lot at this point.

I agree but I don't think DirecTV is going to change their slogan to the "Non-Compressed HD Leader." Though I care as much as anyone else to have the highest quality HD, in the end for PR purposes this makes DISH look good.
I also don't understand how they could be adding so many channels considering their latest failed attempt to launch a satellite. If they had the capability all this time then why wouldn't they have capitalized on it earlier?

[tpm1999]

I just find it odd that directv would willingly risk losing the title of the hd leader by moving d11 so slowly. Now that dish has freed up bandwidth (bye skyangel) they could now take directv's crown.

[DCappy]

Day 52.7, TLE#68, 1 day, 39:36:57 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 123km and has 1,675km to go.
Apogee decreased 76km and has 1,936km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 147.8km per day or 6.2km per hour.

12.5 more days or Friday, May 23 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

I have 17 spreadsheets, starting TLE#51 going thru TLE#68.

4 - 20th
3 - 21st
7 - 22nd
1 - 23rd
2 - 24th

[bruinfever]

I just find it odd that directv would willingly risk losing the title of the hd leader by moving d11 so slowly. Now that dish has freed up bandwidth (bye skyangel) they could now take directv's crown.

I wouldn't be worried if they were lighting up D11 in a few weeks. But knowing how they operate they are going to check, recheck, and then check everything again (as they should) before they light it up, which means a minumum of 6-8 weeks before we see some results....:nono2:

[Tom Robertson]

I wouldn't be worried if they were lighting up D11 in a few weeks. But knowing how they operate they are going to check, recheck, and then check everything again (as they should) before they light it up, which means a minumum of 6-8 weeks before we see some results....:nono2:

For a satellite using conventional transponder technologies, 4 weeks is usually plenty of time, if things go well. (And thinking positively, it will go great!) :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Sixto]

BTW, do expect another TLE soon (anon) ... #68 was from 11am yesterday ...

[azarby]

BTW, do expect another TLE soon (anon) ... #68 was from 11am yesterday ...

TLE's happen when NASA decides to do them or when the sat operator tells them that they have made some orbital manuever and a TLE update is in order

Bob

[tpm1999]

The slow moving D11 has caused the crown to be passed...Dish just lit up their new HDs without a new sattelite. In this case it looks like there is a new king...for now.

I hope the new TLE shows D11 in its final position...aint gonna happen, but one can hope.

[Sixto]

The slow moving D11 has caused the crown to be passed...Dish just lit up their new HDs without a new sattelite. In this case it looks like there is a new king...for now.

I hope the new TLE shows D11 in its final position...aint gonna happen, but one can hope.Then in June they'll be a great announcement when they blow past the competition again! :)

[Sixto]

TLE's happen when NASA decides to do them or when the sat operator tells them that they have made some orbital manuever and a TLE update is in order

BobYep, was just letting everyone know that the "new" TLE was old. Now even older.

[LameLefty]

TLE's happen when NASA decides to do them or when the sat operator tells them that they have made some orbital manuever and a TLE update is in order

Bob

NASA doesn't do them, except for their own vehicles (and even then they don't provide all the tracking assets used to generate them). They come from Space Command. :)

But either way, this is what happened with D10 right around the time it was parked - irregular updates, then none for a couple days, and then "Here we are! TA DA!" :p

[DodgerKing]

The slow moving D11 has caused the crown to be passed...Dish just lit up their new HDs without a new sattelite. In this case it looks like there is a new king...for now.

I hope the new TLE shows D11 in its final position...aint gonna happen, but one can hope.

Not the new King yet. Direct still has about 8 more national HD than Dish.

[Athlon646464]

this is what happened with D10 right around the time it was parked - irregular updates, then none for a couple days, and then "Here we are! TA DA!" :p

:icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da:

[smiddy]

NASA doesn't do them, except for their own vehicles (and even then they don't provide all the tracking assets used to generate them). They come from Space Command. :)

But either way, this is what happened with D10 right around the time it was parked - irregular updates, then none for a couple days, and then "Here we are! TA DA!" :p

NORAD last I knew...

[P Smith]

Shouldn't be a question - just see who's assigning ID for that space objects.

[Sixto]

TLE# 69 ...
Projection: 5/25/08 02:57am - 12.06 days at Day# 66.39 at 5.55km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE69)
1 32729U 08013A 08134.05795344 -.00000213 00000-0 00000+0 0 692
2 32729 000.1448 162.7434 0405381 042.0607 317.3004 00.99899037 663

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-13-2008 01:23:27
Orbit # at Epoch 66
Inclination 0.145
RA of A. Node 162.743
Eccentricity 0.0405381
Argument of Perigee 42.061
Revs per day 0.99899037
Period 24h 01m 27s (1441.45 min)
Semi-major axis 42 270 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 178 x 37 605 km

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34 178 x 37 605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34 111 x 37 722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[steveken]

Hehe, beat ya to it, Sixto..............................oh yeah, the ol' edit command. Well, I DID get the TLE up before him, he just edited his post. :)

1 32729U 08013A 08134.05795344 -.00000213 00000-0 00000+0 0 692
2 32729 000.1448 162.7434 0405381 042.0607 317.3004 00.99899037 663

[LameLefty]

U.S. Space Command is basically the main U.S. contribution to the NORAD agreement and organization. :)

[Sixto]

We're getting very close.

Also, not so sure that our projections mean much at this point because would expect a large jump or two and then be in place.

Post#2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the Spaceway-1 and D10 history, and they both jumped a significant amount right before spending several days tweaking.

Also, the range is now 85 degrees to 95 for next day, then 87 to 97, ... closing in on 99 degrees!

[Sixto]

BTW, while km/hour projection is 5/25/08 02:57am, D11 will be passing thru 99.225 in 4 days ... still have a way to go with perigee/apogee but Orbitron (with current TLE) hits 99.225 on 5/16 at 4:45pm ET.

Will change based on adjustments but we're close .... very close ...

[machavez00]

99(c) hasn't shown up the signal strength screen yet. How long before it does?

[Sixto]

99(c) hasn't shown up the signal strength screen yet. How long before it does?Early to mid-June.

[Carl Spock]

Almost there. This foreplay is killing me!

For those not following developements in this thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=126584), it looks like somebody bought AMC-14 and is trying to save it. It's on the move right now, too, and pretty drastic ones compared to this teasing.

[DCappy]

Day 54.3, TLE#69, 1 day, 14:05:30 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 67km and has 1,675km to go.
Apogee decreased 117km and has 1,936km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 141.1km per day or 5.9km per hour.

13 more days or Monday, May 26 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Slowed, less Perigee and more Apogee. Looks like maybe the Perigee was getting ahead of the Apogee.

[smiddy]

Currently it is at -86.84° and continues to move eastward.

[Tom_S]

The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.

You may want to do a re-count this morning. :lol:

[bubbers44]

Currently it is at -86.84° and continues to move eastward.

Actually it now moved to 87,45 W and is climbing through 23,035 so is presently westbound at .12mps.

[smiddy]

Wow, yes it is at -88.2° and continues to move westward. This makes me wonder, does the change in perigee and apogee change the relative position where it will wobble from East to West and back West to East?

[bubbers44]

Wow, yes it is at -88.2° and continues to move westward. This makes me wonder, does the change in perigee and apogee change the relative position where it will wobble from East to West and back West to East?

Anytime it is above 35,786 km (22,236miles) it will move west, below it will move east. Any orbit adjustment affects which way it drifts and how far.:)

[LameLefty]

Wow, yes it is at -88.2° and continues to move westward. This makes me wonder, does the change in perigee and apogee change the relative position where it will wobble from East to West and back West to East?

Yes, depending on the exact timing and duration of each burn. This process is called "phasing" - e.g., aligning the geometry of the orbit to correspond to the desired final position over the earth's surface.

[DodgerKing]

Made a graph of the last few TLE#'s. It visually shows the movement.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/DodgerKing/D11Graph.jpg

[smiddy]

Now it is at -90.79° and is above 37,609 km and is continuing to move westward...kewl. I also noticed that it is wobbling North to South and South to North but not as drastically. The scaring thing is now I am considering doing the math...

I can't recall if I read this in here or not, but I assume that the entire mission is planned to geostationary orbit. The burns are likely computer controlled and scripted, is that right?

[smiddy]

Made a graph of the last few TLE#'s. It visually shows the movement.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/DodgerKing/D11Graph.jpg

This clearly shows the convergence on the circular orbit, nice. Thanks!

[Indiana627]

Made a graph of the last few TLE#'s. It visually shows the movement.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/DodgerKing/D11Graph.jpg
This is a great visual aid!

[Sixto]

TLE #70 ... weird... same timestamp as #69 ... but +187km!
Projection: 5/23/08 02:34am - 10.05 days at Day#64.38 at 5.89km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE70)
1 32729U 08013A 08134.05795344 -.00000210 00000-0 00000+0 0 701
2 32729 000.0476 239.9952 0364056 322.7460 319.5041 00.99853895 660

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-13-2008 01:23:27
Orbit # at Epoch 66
Inclination 0.048
RA of A. Node 239.995
Eccentricity 0.0364056
Argument of Perigee 322.746
Revs per day 0.99853895
Period 24h 02m 06s (1442.10 min)
Semi-major axis 42 282 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 365 x 37 443 km
Element number / age 70 / 0 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[DodgerKing]

Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in. :p

Here is the latest one with 70 added.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/DodgerKing/D11map2.jpg

[Sixto]

Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in. :p

Here is the latest one with 70 added.
Very nice Mr. King ... Nice addition to the group effort here! :)

[bruinfever]

I also don't understand how they could be adding so many channels considering their latest failed attempt to launch a satellite. If they had the capability all this time then why wouldn't they have capitalized on it earlier?

Well, looks like D11 can take its time again. I got an answer from my question above...http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=128467

[HOAGIEHEAD]

Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in. :p

Here is the latest one with 70 added.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/DodgerKing/D11map2.jpg

Is there a reason I am not seeing this graph?

[HoTat2]

Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in. :p

Here is the latest one with 70 added.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/DodgerKing/D11map2.jpg

Boy… :) ;

If one picture was worth a thousand words spoken on this thread to explain what’s happening with D11’s snail’s pace positioning. This would have to be it.

This graph clearly shows D11’s slow convergence toward a circular GSO target done in small burns at apogee and perigee to lower and raise them in small amounts respectively.

But then again I guess, what’s the real hurry outside of the anxious folks here?

Thanks for posting this DodgerKing.

[HelenWeathers]

DodgerKing: (re the graph) Great Idea, Great Addition. I love visual aids!

[DodgerKing]

Is there a reason I am not seeing this graph?

I see it in your reply.

[DCappy]

Quote: Sixto, Post #2096

Projection: 5/23/08 02:34am - 10.05 days at Day#64.38 at 5.89km/hour (past 18 TLE average)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Projection: 5/23/08 02:24 PM - 10.6 days at Day#64.9 at 6.2km/hour. (past 26 TLE average) I’m using a combination of Perigee and Apogee averages.


Day 54.3, TLE#70.

Perigee increased 187km and has 1,421km to go.
Apogee decreased 161km and has 1,657km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 148.57km per day or 6.2km per hour.

10.6 more days or Friday, May 23 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

I can understand the release of TLEs at odd intervals (because they release a TLE whenever they make an adjustment). But, identical time stamps? Or time stamps prior to the previous TLE? For a group of people that need to be very precise this seems to be a fundamental error.

[machavez00]

It did not seem D10 took this long to be lit up. It it the anticipation?

[mitoca]

I did the same thing, only with the dates of the TLE's on the axis. I then extended out trendlines for the apogee and perogee to see when we would cross the magic number of 35,786 km. If I use a linear trend line I get 5/25. But if I use a polynomial I get 6/2. With each one the apogee lags the perogee (average altitude > 35786), I assume to move the sat westward. Now if I could only figure out how to post a graph I'd put it in here.

[pault2727]

I like the graph, but can you add three more lines? Target Height, Perigee Trend, and Apogee Trend. I duplicated your speadsheet and added those lines and got a convergence at the target height at TLE 84

[Jeremy W]

For a group of people that need to be very precise this seems to be a fundamental error.
Boeing doesn't rely on TLEs to tell them where their satellites are at. ;)

[cartrivision]

Is there a reason I am not seeing this graph?

The graphic file is stored at photobucket.com which is blocked by many "work" firewalls. The poster of the graph (and anyone else who posts graphics or pictures here) should upload it to this message board as an attachment.

[houskamp]

Quote: Sixto, Post #2096

Projection: 5/23/08 02:34am - 10.05 days at Day#64.38 at 5.89km/hour (past 18 TLE average)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Projection: 5/23/08 02:24 PM - 10.6 days at Day#64.9 at 6.2km/hour. (past 26 TLE average) I’m using a combination of Perigee and Apogee averages.


Day 54.3, TLE#70.

Perigee increased 187km and has 1,421km to go.
Apogee decreased 161km and has 1,657km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 148.57km per day or 6.2km per hour.

10.6 more days or Friday, May 23 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

I can understand the release of TLEs at odd intervals (because they release a TLE whenever they make an adjustment). But, identical time stamps? Or time stamps prior to the previous TLE? For a group of people that need to be very precise this seems to be a fundamental error.
Is it time for 2 polls? arrival and live? :D :lol:

[mitoca]

OK, here's a modified version as an attachment

[smiddy]

Nice predictive approach mitoca. Is there a way to asymptotically smooth the two converging lines such that they meet less abruptly?

[mcbeevee]

It did not seem D10 took this long to be lit up. It it the anticipation?

D10 took around 80 days to start broadcasting HD nationally. D11 is on day 55 now.

:)

[smiddy]

-94 degrees and still moving westward.

[HOAGIEHEAD]

The graphic file is stored at photobucket.com which is blocked by many "work" firewalls. The poster of the graph (and anyone else who posts graphics or pictures here) should upload it to this message board as an attachment.

I should have known that. I am accessing this from my work computer, we do have a pretty thick firewall. Thanks!!

[DCappy]

Boeing doesn't rely on TLEs to tell them where their satellites are at. ;)

TLEs are ment to tell "Others" where thier satilltes are at. Is this not the purpose of the TLE.

[smiddy]

If I am calculating right, by no means stationary, but DirecTV 11 should be at 99 degrees in about 5 hours. Though I don't know all the mechanics...so it is more of a WAG than anything.

[LameLefty]

Nice predictive approach mitoca. Is there a way to asymptotically smooth the two converging lines such that they meet less abruptly?

Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates. :)

[smiddy]

Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates. :)

So then when it gets to the convergence it will stop abruptly? Interesting...

[LameLefty]

TLEs are ment to tell "Others" where thier satilltes are at. Is this not the purpose of the TLE.

I think Jeremy's comment is a nice reminder that "weird" TLE sets and cases of probably post-hoc data massaging (to correct erroneous calculations or imprecise measurements) shouldn't be taken too seriously by us. We're just sideline observers after all. The sat drivers know where they are and where they are going much more accurately than a TLE can represent.

Remember, the TLE is just a data set designed to be plugged into a standard model of the earth and its local gravitational/atmospheric environment. The sat has an absolute position in space regardless of where the model says it is. Sat operators can derive that in real time based on differential GPS measurements, star trackers, telemetry timing, and (possibly) access to SPACECOM radar and optical tracking assets.

[mitoca]

Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates. :)

Yeah, I figured this was just an "engineering estimate". I'm sure the timing changes a bit as they get closer. Just like when you parallel park your car, you don't keep in the same direction & speed as when you were driving down the street. It also doesn't factor in the position in relation to 99.

[Tiger62]

If I am calculating right, by no means stationary, but DirecTV 11 should be at 99 degrees in about 5 hours. Though I don't know all the mechanics...so it is more of a WAG than anything.

Nope. It won't get there today. In a couple of hours, more or less, it'll head back east.

[cartrivision]

Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates. :)

Actually it is somewhat asymptotic. I think that you will see that especially in the final weeks of maneuvers that it isn't linear and that the non-linear plot on that graph will be the closest to being correct.

[smiddy]

Ok, I'll keep watching.

[Sixto]

similar as last night with last TLE.

99.225 (@36,611km) on 5/16 at 4:32pm ET.

[gslater]

Does anyone know what the current rate of westward drift is? Specifically when will it get to a point where it will drift over it's final orbital slot (99.225 I believe) and when will it get to a point where the center of East / West oscillation is over that spot. I'm wondering if they will maneuver to park it once it gets there or if they will let it drift until the center of oscillation is over that spot and then finish up circularizing the orbit to park it there.

Edit: Sixto you beat my question with part of the answer.

[Sixto]

Does anyone know what the current rate of westward drift is? Specifically when will it get to a point where it will drift over it's final orbital slot (99.225 I believe) and when will it get to a point where the center of East / West oscillation is over that spot. I'm wondering if they will maneuver to park it once it gets there or if they will let it drift until the center of oscillation is over that spot and then finish up circularizing the orbit to park it there.answered before the question! :) :)

[gslater]

answered before the question! :) :)

You must be psychic :lol:

[Indiana627]

It's like deja vu all over again...

[LameLefty]

Actually it is somewhat asymptotic. I think that you will see that especially in the final weeks of maneuvers that it isn't linear and that the non-linear plot on that graph will be the closest to being correct.

For our purposes, however, that degree of precision does not matter. Recall how D10 was still "wobbling" around its test slot while it was actually being tested - in particular, the inclination was about two orders of magnitude greater than it ended up, if I recall correctly. As TLEs were released following the "parking", inclination crept downward.

Now, D11 may well be different - D10 was mostly testing national beams, at least at first. Spot aiming and fine-tuning will require greater orbital precision than testing national transponders. So testing may not even start until things are very "settled" so to speak. If that is the case, the function will be more asymptotic when plotted over time. But look at the scale involved - these are already pretty small maneuvers and eventually they will be judged "close enough" to get things going, even if smaller adjustments continue over time.

[DodgerKing]

The graphic file is stored at photobucket.com which is blocked by many "work" firewalls. The poster of the graph (and anyone else who posts graphics or pictures here) should upload it to this message board as an attachment.

Here you go

[Neural762]

Based on DodgerKing's cool idea, here's another interesting chart from Excel. The green line is the target, the pink is the apogee, and the blue one is the perigee.

Click here to view - 13594

[DodgerKing]

OK, here's a modified version as an attachment

Nice. Both linear and polynomial regression models shown...

[JeffBowser]

I last saw the word "polynomial" in college over 20 years ago. I did not ever want to see it again. No thanks to you guys.

[JJJBBB]

Here you go

nice.

(Someone said "polynomial" hehe...he!)


An expression consisting of the sum of two or more terms each of which is the product of a constant and a variable raised to an integral power: ax2 + bx + c is a polynomial, where a, b, and c are constants and x is a variable. - Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary -

[P Smith]

Here you go
Just an idea - add D10 trend and replace TLE## to date/time.

[bubbers44]

To us amateur observers it would seem like now that the orbit is close to final circular orbit a computer could figure out the final burn, angle, time and length to plop it at 99.225W at 22,236 miles at a tangent to the earth in two or three days and a few tweaks would finish the job. My second biggest concern is if we should watch the shuttle launch on the 31st from Satellite Beach at 30 miles on a private balcony or Titusville at 12 miles on the river with lots of traffic.

[lowmazda]

To us amateur observers it would seem like now that the orbit is close to final circular orbit a computer could figure out the final burn, angle, time and length to plop it at 99.225W at 22,236 miles at a tangent to the earth in two or three days and a few tweaks would finish the job. My second biggest concern is if we should watch the shuttle launch on the 31st from Satellite Beach at 30 miles on a private balcony or Titusville at 12 miles on the river with lots of traffic.

If you really need to hear the engines go to Titusville. Spaceview Park is a great place to watch. It's a Saturday at 5pm and you can bet that it will be packed. Anywhere along the beachs on the coast will be packed. Enjoy either way.

[bubbers44]

If you really need to hear the engines go to Titusville. Spaceview Park is a great place to watch. It's a Saturday at 5pm and you can bet that it will be packed. Anywhere along the beachs on the coast will be packed. Enjoy either way.

You sold me on the condo with the balcony view. It is overwater viewing so we will miss the ground shaking and the engine noise but will get a great view of the ascent and contrail going up to orbit. I have seen it from the Keys and once flying an airliner in Cuban airspace turning a lot to let the passengers see the contrail on a day launch.

I know, back on topic. I'm sticking with my Apr 20th estimate of May 20th in position.

[RAD]

I did the KSC tour last week and a tip the guide mentioned was if you want to see a launch up close contact your congressperson and see if they can get you access to the VIP seating. It will either be by the big countdown clock or on the roof of the launch control building.

[DCappy]

Based on DodgerKing's cool idea, here's another interesting chart from Excel. The green line is the target, the pink is the apogee, and the blue one is the perigee.

Click here to view - 13594

Great chart.:hurah:

[smiddy]

Derned thing is moving eastward again...I know I shouldn't look, it only makes me crazy with anticipation, but what else am I going to do? Homework? :D

[Paul A]

polyNOMINAL

OK, I know...

back to topic

[bubbers44]

Derned thing is moving eastward again...I know I shouldn't look, it only makes me crazy with anticipation, but what else am I going to do? Homework? :D

It's that east below 22,236 miles, west above thing that keeps it oscillating. In a few days we won't have to worry about that any more.

[bruinfever]

Wow...Not only does DBSTALK have rocket scientists but they Excel experts as well...I'm luck if I can create a simple spreadsheet let alone graphs that are mapping a satellite in space. :grin:

[smiddy]

It's that east below 22,236 miles, west above thing that keeps it oscillating. In a few days we won't have to worry about that any more.

I know, soon. I just can't wait, it's killing me. :D

[Sixto]

I know, soon. I just can't wait, it's killing me. :DYep, we'll be parked at the end of next week, few weeks to tweak/test/get some signal, then few more to some good HD ... then can focus back to the weekly adds to http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378 :)

[hdtvfan0001]

Once parked....I suspect they'll start the 30-day transponder tests.

After that point, in theory, they could start launching a channel or two, perhaps to test the new bird....local HD may come first before National channels...

Who knows....

[pilotboy72]

With D10, was there any news at any of the analyst meetings that discussed the expected life of the satellite after parking? Just wondering if we would expect the same with D11 -- maybe give some idea of how much fuel was used to park D11. Might be an interesting comparison if there's any information given.

Brian

[Sixto]

Projection: 5/23/08 09:54pm - 9.36 days at Day#65.18 at 6.07km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE71)
1 32729U 08013A 08135.55600352 -.00000227 00000-0 00000+0 0 710
2 32729 000.0750 279.6920 0330462 282.6289 139.1148 01.00163799 673

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-14-2008 13:20:38
Orbit # at Epoch 67
Inclination 0.075
RA of A. Node 279.692
Eccentricity 0.0330462
Argument of Perigee 282.629
Revs per day 1.00163799
Period 23h 57m 38s (1437.63 min)
Semi-major axis 42 195 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 423 x 37 211 km
Element number / age 71 / 0 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34 423 x 37 211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[smiddy]

Yep, we'll be parked at the end of next week, few weeks to tweak/test/get some signal, then few more to some good HD ... then can focus back to the weekly adds to http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378 :)

That is an awesome list sir! Yep, once it is parked and giving us glorious new HD, then we can be focused on being HD (Happy Dudes!) :hurah:

[DCappy]

Day 55.8, TLE#71, 35:57:12 since last TLE (using past 27 TLE average).

Perigee increased 58km and has 1,363km to go.
Apogee decreased 232km and has 1,425km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 142.41km per day or 5.9km per hour.

9.7 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Apogee is catching up to Perigee in distance to go to target.

[smiddy]

Thanks DCappy! The anticipation is, well, you already know don't you? :D

[CTJon]

This, and the D10 threads are great to learn about orbital dynamics but sometimes hard to keep the thread. Is there a "parking a sat for dummies" book so those of us who can't even think of the dumb questions to ask can learn about this stuff. I think my last physics or math class was about the time of echo 1 (ok a couple of years later).

[Villager]

Day 55.8, TLE#71, 35:57:12 since last TLE (using past 27 TLE average).

Perigee increased 58km and has 1,363km to go.
Apogee decreased 232km and has 1,425km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 142.41km per day or 5.9km per hour.

9.7 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Apogee is catching up to Perigee in distance to go to target.

Also notice that the eccentricity is decreasing rapidly. It has gone from about 0.9 to about 0.033 in the past week or so. I understand that it has to go down to a very small number such as .00000xx plus/minus an order of magnitude.

[LameLefty]

Also notice that the eccentricity is decreasing rapidly. It has gone from about 0.9 to about 0.033 in the past week or so. I understand that it has to go down to a very small number such as .00000xx plus/minus an order of magnitude.

Once the orbital period is correct, inclination is the next most important factor. For national beams, a little bit of north-south wobble due to inclination isn't much of a big deal but for spot beams it could be an issue.

Eccentricity just measures how close to a circle the orbit is. Once D11 reaches the ideal period, it will be circular.

[Sixto]

similar as last night with last TLE.

99.225 (@36,611km) on 5/16 at 4:32pm ET.Very interesting ...

With today's TLE, 99.225 now happens on 5/24 at 6:06pm ET but with almost perfect altitude of 35,711km.

Also, the TLE projection from earlier put us there on 5/23 without relationship to 99.225 degrees (just using the 6 km/hour).

All the stars are aligning ... be there at the end of next week ... unless of course they make some other adjustment.

[smiddy]

Either way it is 8 or 9 days...very kewl!

[hdtvfan0001]

What's nice is that publically (at the investor meeting yesterday), DirecTV is now saying that D11 will be providing additional channels "this summer" instead of the previous description of "some time beginning in September".

While this may appear to be a subtle difference, it also reinforces that things are going smoothly so far, and enough information is inhouse about D11 to have confidence it will go live in the next 90-100 days.

All good news.

[say-what]

What's nice is that publically (at the investor meeting yesterday), DirecTV is now saying that D11 will be providing additional channels "this summer" instead of the previous description of "some time beginning in September".

While this may appear to be a subtle difference, it also reinforces that things are going smoothly so far, and enough information is inhouse about D11 to have confidence it will go live in the next 90-100 days.

All good news.
Well, summer does run from June 21 to Sept. 21 (fall begins Sept 22). So it could still be sometime in September. :grin:

I'm hoping for sooner.....;)

[smiddy]

I think DirecTV is taking a persimestic approach to DirecTV 11's inception. Which I think is a good thing...even if one find September to be a long way off, I think it will be a little bit sooner than September...competitive pressure may prevail in that regard. ;) Unless Dish is tapped out...only time will tell.

[bruinfever]

Well, summer does run from June 21 to Sept. 21 (fall begins Sept 22). So it could still be sometime in September. :grin:

I'm hoping for sooner.....;)

For DirecTV to light it up in September would mean that D11 would basically do nothing for a minumum of two months, taking into account they do extensive testing for four weeks. It seems highly unlikely, as I'm sure they want to suck the air out of DISH's PR campaign of new HD channels.

[hdtvfan0001]

Well, summer does run from June 21 to Sept. 21 (fall begins Sept 22). So it could still be sometime in September. :grin:

I'm hoping for sooner.....;)
Its important to add that the question was answered in response to the specific "September" original reference.....meaning that if things continue as they have, it may very well be sooner.

[Sixto]

Projection: 5/24/08 05:17am - 8.7 days at Day#65.49 at 5.62km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE72)
1 32729U 08013A 08136.51557854 -.00000209 00000-0 00000+0 0 726
2 32729 000.0702 280.3446 0292308 283.1741 123.3917 01.00067488 685

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-15-2008 12:22:25
Orbit # at Epoch 68
Inclination 0.070
RA of A. Node 280.345
Eccentricity 0.0292308
Argument of Perigee 283.174
Revs per day 1.00067488
Period 23h 59m 01s (1439.2 min)
Semi-major axis 42 222 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 610 x 37 078 km
Element number / age 72 / 0 day(s)


Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34 610 x 37 078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34 423 x 37 211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[MrDad0330]

I was also thinking that with Dish boasting 95 HD channels, I would think D will light D11 up soon after the 4 weeks of testing. By your calculations of parking in about 9-10 days, the testing period would be complete in late June. Maybe a 4th of July spasm of new HD channels to counteract Dish now claiming the same number of HD channels as D.
Anyway, early July should be plenty of time to "get r done" I cant wait..

[Newshawk]

I was also thinking that with Dish boasting 95 HD channels,

Dish can only boast of 80 HD channels since the took the entire Voom suite down.

I would think D will light D11 up soon after the 4 weeks of testing.

It's possible that DirecTV will react to Dish's addition of new HD channels, but DirecTV has in the past been more of an leader, not a reactor. Only time will tell.

Maybe a 4th of July spasm of new HD channels to counteract Dish now claiming the same number of HD channels as D.

Actually, July 4th would be the worst time to light up new channels. It's a holiday-a time when most people are outside enjoying activities away from the TV. Also, the 4th is on a Friday. Putting aside the DirecTV convention of launching new channels on Wednesday, going into a weekend is just not a good time to launch new channels. A holiday weekend is even worse. You wouldn't get any publicity for it four at least four days.

Anyway, early July should be plenty of time to "get r done" I cant wait..

We all are anxious to see new HD channels light up.

[DodgerKing]

Latest excel graph of D11

[DCappy]

Day 56.8, TLE#72, 23:01:47 since last TLE (using past 28 TLE average).

Perigee increased 187km and has 1,176km to go.
Apogee decreased 133km and has 1,292km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 144.23km per day or 6.0km per hour.

8.6 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Think Sixto nailed it in Post #2157.

[wilbur_the_goose]

Where's EaglePC? Remember him from the D10 lightup? I think he was the first to report getting a signal.

[JeffBowser]

Ugh. Don't bring that name up. That guy isn't right in the head.:lol:

Where's EaglePC? Remember him from the D10 lightup? I think he was the first to report getting a signal.

[Steve Robertson]

Where's EaglePC? Remember him from the D10 lightup? I think he was the first to report getting a signal.

Wow a blast from the past man that guy was funny

[StanO]

Does anyone remember how long it took D10 to go live after it's launch?

Sorry, I was not around the boards when it launched. Started in September '07.

[man_rob]

Does anyone remember how long it took D10 to go live after it's launch?

Sorry, I was not around the boards when it launched. Started in September '07.

According to Engadget HD, it took 81 days.

[mcbeevee]

I posted this a couple of days ago...D11 is now on day 57:

D10 took around 80 days to start broadcasting HD nationally. D11 is on day 55 now.

:)
Maybe we need a timer with the days passed since D11 was launched.

:)

[RAD]

According to Engadget HD, it took 81 days.

A IIRC there was a few added days delay due to the spotbeam issue that D* reported.

[azarby]

We need to rememer that DTV can't start testing until they pay the bill and Boeing hands over the keys.

Bob

[Steve Robertson]

We need to rememer that DTV can't start testing until they pay the bill and Boeing hands over the keys.

Bob

I think D* is set up for auto pay with Boeing:rolleyes:

[DCappy]

Does anyone remember how long it took D10 to go live after it's launch?

Sorry, I was not around the boards when it launched. Started in September '07.

A little history on DirecTV 10:

July 6, 2007 - D10 was launched.
Day 40 - Aug 17, 2007 - D10 parked, TLE#57.
Day 66 - Sept 12, 2007 - First signals from D10, 103b, tp 11.
Day 80 - Sept 26, 2007 - Satellite lit up.

I believe that all my dates are correct, if not I know some one here will correct me.

There was a problem with spot beams on D10, That might have caused a delay. I don’t think we will have that problem this time.

[gslater]

For DirecTV to light it up in September would mean that D11 would basically do nothing for a minumum of two months, taking into account they do extensive testing for four weeks. It seems highly unlikely, as I'm sure they want to suck the air out of DISH's PR campaign of new HD channels.

I'm not sure how the money flows in these situations but it seems reasonable to assume that after Boeing hands things over the satellite starts costing DirecTV money (probably some before hand as well due to ground equipment and personnel). Seems like a good portion of those costs will be fixed regardless of whether the sat is in use or not. From that standpoint, it would make sense that they would want to start getting a return on that investment in the way of new subs and the best way to do that is to light up new local markets. I just can't see them putting that off once everything is tested and ready to go.

[RAD]

We need to rememer that DTV can't start testing until they pay the bill and Boeing hands over the keys.

Bob


Dr. Malone put it on his new DirecTV Mastercard and is trying to figure out what to do with all his DirecTV points:D

[Sixto]

A little history on DirecTV 10:

July 6, 2007 - D10 was launched.
Day 40 - Aug 17, 2007 - D10 parked, TLE#57.
Day 66 - Sept 12, 2007 - First signals from D10, 103b, tp 11.
Day 80 - Sept 26, 2007 - Satellite lit up.

I believe that all my dates are correct, if not I know some one here will correct me.

There was a problem with spot beams on D10, That might have caused a delay. I don’t think we will have that problem this time.
DCappy summarized it well ....

A few differences with D10 vs D11:
D10 was the first CONUS Ka HD. At the time, it seemed like there was new infrastructure (on the ground and in space) being implemented for the first time. Yep, the Spaceway's had Ka HD, but it appeared that there were new technologies used to distribute the first CONUS Ka HD. Should have very little of this (if any) with D11.

D10 had a special test location, so it needed to be parked twice. All indications are that D11 will go straight to the final location of 99.225.

As DCappy mentioned, there were problems with the D10 spotbeams. Hopefully (!), no issues with D11.

There was a delay with turning on the new channels which caused delay from 9/19 to 9/26. Problem was authorizing receivers for the new national HD.



As long as there are no unexpected issues, D11 should take a few weeks less then D10, once parked.

[azarby]

Dr. Malone put it on his new DirecTV Mastercard and is trying to figure out what to do with all his DirecTV points:D

!rolling :icon_lol:

Bob

[bruinfever]

Since D10 parked in roughly 40 days why is it roughly 60 days for D11 before it will park?

[Sixto]

Since D10 parked in roughly 40 days why is it roughly 60 days for D11 before it will park?The theory is that a slower path was selected for D11 to conserve fuel for a longer lifespan. D10 was needed asap, not the same with D11.

The process used to move to a geostationary orbit for D10 and D11 is similar, but D10 started at a 34,000km altitude, while D11 started at 29,000km, before the gradual climb. Post#2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) contains the detailed D10 vs D11 comparison.

[smiddy]

Latest excel graph of D11

Nice, thanks. You can certainly tell where they made adjustments, eh? :D

[hdtvfan0001]

The theory is that a slower path was selected for D11 to conserve fuel for a longer lifespan. D10 was needed asap, not the same with D11.

The process used to move to a geostationary orbit for D10 and D11 is similar, but D10 started at a 34,000km altitude, while D11 started at 29,000km, before the gradual climb. Post#2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) contains the detailed D10 vs D11 comparison.
Not only makes sense from a technical perspective, but also from a business one.

[LameLefty]

Another factor to consider - these satellites were launched using two different boosters. Despite D11's advantage from Sea Launch's equatorial launch latitude, the Proton-Breeze M booster used for D10 and the Zenit 3SL+Blok DM booster are fundamentally different launchers, with different payload-to-orbit characteristics and mission profiles. Without detailed spacecraft mass and launch trajectory data for each it's hard to compare the two. It literally is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

[tpm1999]

figuratively

[Sixto]

Another factor to consider - these satellites were launched using two different boosters. Despite D11's advantage from Sea Launch's equatorial launch latitude, the Proton-Breeze M booster used for D10 and the Zenit 3SL+Blok DM booster are fundamentally different launchers, with different payload-to-orbit characteristics and mission profiles. Without detailed spacecraft mass and launch trajectory data for each it's hard to compare the two. It literally is an apples-to-oranges comparison.Yep Lefty, agreement here.

Thought about how to phrase it, then decided on "The theory is ..." because really not sure.

[smiddy]

Another factor to consider - these satellites were launched using two different boosters. Despite D11's advantage from Sea Launch's equatorial launch latitude, the Proton-Breeze M booster used for D10 and the Zenit 3SL+Blok DM booster are fundamentally different launchers, with different payload-to-orbit characteristics and mission profiles. Without detailed spacecraft mass and launch trajectory data for each it's hard to compare the two. It literally is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Is the fuel the same for each booster or are they entirely different too?

[jkast]

OK... Need a rocket scientist for this question in the form of an assertion:

1) A rocket is at it's peak efficiency while burning. But efficiency is LOST for a slight while during ignition. So a series of short burns is LESS efficient in its use of fuel than a single longer duration burn.

2) It takes a specific amount of energy to raise a satellite to a specific orbit... the same amount of energy whether expended slowly or quickly.

3) There is a need to shape an orbit... but you can adjust perigee with a burn at apogee and change the apogee with a burn at perigee so, within reasonalbe parameters, two burns gets you to the circular orbit of your choice with the LEAST waste of fuel...

I know there are fine tuning points, but would like to know if 1, 2 and 3 above are basically correct....

[crashHD]

1) A rocket is at it's peak efficiency while burning. But efficiency is LOST for a slight while during ignition. So a series of short burns is LESS efficient in its use of fuel than a single longer duration burn.


<not a rocket scientist>
A rocket increases in efficiency as it moves faster. The faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy transferred to the rocket, and the less to the exhaust.
</not a rocket scientist>

[LameLefty]

Is the fuel the same for each booster or are they entirely different too?

Zenit is LOX (liquid oxygen) and kerosene, while Proton is N2O4/UDMH (which is: nitrogen tetroxide as the oxidizer, unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine as the fuel). And let me just say, those Proton propellants are some nasty stuff. The fallen stages, way down on the Asian steppes, are pretty highly toxic.

[LameLefty]

<not a rocket scientist>
A rocket increases in efficiency as it moves faster. The faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy transferred to the rocket, and the less to the exhaust.
</not a rocket scientist>

Er, um . . . no. :)

The exhaust velocity is relative to the motion of the rocket, regardless of whether it's sitting still on the pad or moving very quickly. So it doesn't really matter how fast the spacecraft is moving to start with. There are other efficiency issues at play, however. Rocket engines are typically more efficient at altitude or in orbit than they are at launch due to atmospheric pressure impeding the expansion of the exhaust gases and thus reducing exhaust velocity. But at altitude, you typically have only a finite space inside the launch vehicle to store the engine bell(s). At altitude or in orbit, your exhaust nozzle should ideally be much wider and longer than you can often fit into a vehicle fairing for the "ideal" expansion of the exhaust, so you have to compromise to get it as close to ideal as possible. Et cetera .... there are many types of issues like these to be considered in designing space vehicles.

[LameLefty]

OK... Need a rocket scientist for this question in the form of an assertion:

1) A rocket is at it's peak efficiency while burning. But efficiency is LOST for a slight while during ignition. So a series of short burns is LESS efficient in its use of fuel than a single longer duration burn.


Yeah, but ... the ignition transients are typically very short, especially for a well-designed engine. There's really not much practical difference. FWIW, the RCS thrusters of the space shuttle can fire for as short as 800 milliseconds.


2) It takes a specific amount of energy to raise a satellite to a specific orbit... the same amount of energy whether expended slowly or quickly.


Yes, in an ideal case. However, there are often engineering aspects to the issue: navigation through the GSO "belt" to avoid interfering with other spacecraft as you shape your orbit, being in range of tracking and telemetry sites for certain spacecraft operations, being able to have your solar arrays deployed during maneuvering might restrict you to short, low-thrust burns, and the engines might subject the spacecraft to vibrational or thermal conditions which must not exceed a certain duration. Heck, the engines themselves might not be designed to burn for very long before requiring a cool-down period. Again, there are many considerations involved.


3) There is a need to shape an orbit... but you can adjust perigee with a burn at apogee and change the apogee with a burn at perigee so, within reasonalbe parameters, two burns gets you to the circular orbit of your choice with the LEAST waste of fuel...


Ideally, yes.

[crashHD]

Er, um . . . no. :)

The exhaust velocity is relative to the motion of the rocket, regardless of whether it's sitting still on the pad or moving very quickly. So it doesn't really matter how fast the spacecraft is moving to start with.

I wasn't talking about the exhaust velocity. The velocity relative to the motion can stay the same, but the energy imparted can change, based on velocity.

Rocket engines produce the same force regardless of their velocity. A rocket acting on a fixed object, as in a static firing, does no useful work at all; the rocket's stored energy is entirely expended on its propellant. But when the rocket and payload move, the force applied to the payload by the rocket during any time interval acts through the distance the rocket and payload move during that time. Force acting through a distance is the definition of mechanical energy or work. So the farther the rocket and payload move during any given interval, i.e., the faster they move, the greater the kinetic energy imparted to the payload by the rocket. (This is why rockets are seldom used on slow-moving vehicles; they're simply too inefficient.)

Energy is still conserved, however. The additional energy imparted to the payload is exactly matched by a decrease in energy imparted to the propellant being expelled behind the rocket because the speed of the rocket subtracts from the propellant exhaust velocity. But we don't care about the propellant, so the faster we can move during a rocket burn, the better.

I know that is just wikipedia, and as such should be taken with a grain of salt,but the principle seems to jive with my physics experience. If you can see where this is in error, please point it out. My physics is a little rusty, and I'd have to dig out the big book to find the equations that give the definitive answer.

[LameLefty]

I wasn't talking about the exhaust velocity. The velocity relative to the motion can stay the same, but the energy imparted can change, based on velocity.

Actually, you were, in the post I was replying to. You said:

The faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy transferred to the rocket, and the less to the exhaust.

That was what I was replying to.

Now, as to the rest, that's true but you have to realize that efficiency of a rocket can be measured in different ways. For one specific use of a rocket mtor (e.g., lifting off a planetary surface at the bottom of a deep gravity well or attitude control of a GSO spacecraft or trajectory control of a long-duration interplanetary probe ...) one might say a rocket is very efficient, but if that rocket was applied to another use it might be relatively inefficient.

In other words, yes, a XIPS engine is incredibly efficient because a very small amount of propellant, accelerated to incredibly high velocity and producing usable thrust over the course of years' of operation could generate a very high dela-V. If I had 15 years to wait and don't need to escape from deep inside a planetary gravity well. Whereas a LOX/kerosene engine might only burn for 7 minutes and produce a few thousand feet per second delta-V but it might be producing half a million pounds of thrust and moving a vehicle that starts off weighing 350,000 pounds. No, compared directly to one another, that LOX/kerosene engine isn't very efficient. But at the same time, it's probably very COST efficient because it's cheap to build, cheap to fuel and operate, and it does the job relatively reliably. And it produces enough raw power for get the job done under those circumstance, something an ion engine could not.

By comparison, a Delta IV uses LOX/LH2 for its propellants. That burns at much higher efficiency (going from memory, the ISP is about 30% higher for LOX/LH2 as for LOX/kerosene) and good thrust. However, LH2 is not very dense, so it requires longer, heavier structures to carry it. It is way more cryogenic than LOX and requires a lot of special handling and ground equipment to fuel, service and prep for launch, etc. So consequently, the Delta IV's RS68 engine, while very efficient in terms of how much velocity change it can impart per unit of fuel, is very cost-ineffective in terms of putting satellites in orbit, operationally.

Ugh . . . this is too much thinking for a Friday morning before my first cup of coffee . . . :)

[hdtvfan0001]

Ugh . . . this is too much thinking for a Friday morning before my first cup of coffee . . . :)
I'm gonna need something a bit stronger to understand all this... :D :lol:

[gslater]

Ok. Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a rocket scientist so what I say is from a laymans point of view and I welcome corrections if required.

There are a couple of things to consider here. The efficiency of the thruster and the efficiency of the burn. I don't believe they are the same thing. The thruster will impart energy on a vector based on the direction of thrust during the burn. Over the course of the burn that direction will change unless the burn vector is modified throughout the burn and I don't think this is what happens. So in a short burn you would get higher efficiency because the thrust vector is very close to what you want it to be. In a longer burn, youre thrust vector would vary and so you would actually waste some fuel by having the spacecraft pointed slightly off angle at the beginning and end of the burn.

[DodgerKing]

Ok. Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a rocket scientist...But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Hotel last night. :lol:

[gslater]

But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Hotel last night. :lol:

Who knows. Lame Lefty may come back and tell me I'm delusional. If so I welcome the criticism. I'm married so I'm used to it :grin:

[DodgerKing]

Who knows. Lame Lefty may come back and tell me I'm delusional. If so I welcome the criticism. I'm married so I'm used to it :grin:

Nothing against you or your statement. Just thought that line fit well with the first part of you first sentence.:)

[gslater]

Nothing against you or your statement. Just thought that line fit well with the first part of you first sentence.:)

No offense taken, and if you ask people that know me, most of them would say that I am delusional on a regular basis as well!!!:nono2:

[LameLefty]

Ok. Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a rocket scientist so what I say is from a laymans point of view and I welcome corrections if required.

There are a couple of things to consider here. The efficiency of the thruster and the efficiency of the burn. I don't believe they are the same thing. The thruster will impart energy on a vector based on the direction of thrust during the burn. Over the course of the burn that direction will change unless the burn vector is modified throughout the burn and I don't think this is what happens. So in a short burn you would get higher efficiency because the thrust vector is very close to what you want it to be. In a longer burn, youre thrust vector would vary and so you would actually waste some fuel by having the spacecraft pointed slightly off angle at the beginning and end of the burn.

That is true if the spacecraft does not modify its attitude during the burn. The most efficient burn is made tangent to the velocity vector. And of course, in an ideal world, the velocity change would be instantaneous (which is what you assume for quick and dirty "back of the envelope" calculations). In the real world to compute the planned maneuvers and simulate them you have to break it down into discrete time-wise steps and calculate iteratively - for each instance of time, you calculate the mass change due to fuel burn and the velocity change over that time due to the burn acting on the current mass. The smaller each time slice the more precise the calculations (and of course the longer the calculations take to simulate each maneuver).

But at any rate, for longer duration burns lasting several minutes and longer, most spacecraft do have active attitude control during the burns to ensure they remain pointed properly.

[dms1]

3) There is a need to shape an orbit... but you can adjust perigee with a burn at apogee and change the apogee with a burn at perigee so, within reasonalbe parameters, two burns gets you to the circular orbit of your choice with the LEAST waste of fuel...True, but how would you explain to your boss (and customer) that you just lost the satellite because its orientation was slightly off before you commenced a massive burn and it's now winging its way towards Saturn? ;)

[gslater]

But at any rate, for longer duration burns lasting several minutes and longer, most spacecraft do have active attitude control during the burns to ensure they remain pointed properly.

Would that be through the use of XIPS? Because then you still have the same situation. Either you lose efficiency due to an "average" attitude throughout the burn or due to fuel expended to maintain attitude. So then even if a long burn and short burn were equally efficient as far as the thrusters and the thrust imparted were concerned, the overall efficiency of the burn would be best with many small burns as opposed to large burns. The difference may not be materially significant but I can see where there would be one.

[Tiger62]

...most spacecraft do have active attitude control during the burns to ensure they remain pointed properly.

MOST?? Shirley, ye jest! :D

[LameLefty]

Would that be through the use of XIPS? Because then you still have the same situation. Either you lose efficiency due to an "average" attitude throughout the burn or due to fuel expended to maintain attitude. So then even if a long burn and short burn were equally efficient as far as the thrusters and the thrust imparted were concerned, the overall efficiency of the burn would be best with many small burns as opposed to large burns. The difference may not be materially significant but I can see where there would be one.

I suspect attitude control is through CMG (control-moment gyros) which are later desaturated by XIPS but I do not know this for a fact. XIPS is incredibly efficient but very low thrust. I just can't see it doing much brute-force type work in a several-thousand-pound spacecraft. CMGs would be ideal for this. When they become saturated, routine long-duration XIPS burns could desaturate them effectively. There is plenty of fuel aboard to handle this sort of thing. I think the current burns are still being made with the hydrazine apogee motors.

Once in stable operation the spacecraft is tall enough to actually get some help from gravity-gradient effects but not so tall that those would predominate.

[LameLefty]

MOST?? Shirley, ye jest! :D

I try to not to state things in absolutes lest someone dig up an obscure space project out of the depths of Encyclopedia Astronautica or something. :p

[steveken]

And don't call him Shirley.

[gslater]

I suspect attitude control is through CMG (control-moment gyros) which are later desaturated by XIPS but I do not know this for a fact. XIPS is incredibly efficient but very low thrust. I just can't see it doing much brute-force type work in a several-thousand-pound spacecraft. CMGs would be ideal for this. When they become saturated, routine long-duration XIPS burns could desaturate them effectively. There is plenty of fuel aboard to handle this sort of thing. I think the current burns are still being made with the hydrazine apogee motors.

Once in stable operation the spacecraft is tall enough to actually get some help from gravity-gradient effects but not so tall that those would predominate.

Ok. You stick with the Rocket Scientist stuff and I'll stick to computer programming. It makes a whole lot more sense to me than most your statement. My brain is starting to hurt.

[gregjones]

OK, I will take this as a hint. Encore HD was announced this week to start broadcasting (again) in July. What are the odds that this Malone-owned entity is timed to be released on D11?

[Tiger62]

I try to not to state things in absolutes lest someone dig up an obscure space project out of the depths of Encyclopedia Astronautica or something. :p

Gotcha :) As an engineer/former rocket scientist, it was just difficult to fathom a thruster burn without active attitude control!

[LameLefty]

Ok. You stick with the Rocket Scientist stuff and I'll stick to computer programming. It makes a whole lot more sense to me than most your statement. My brain is starting to hurt.

Sorry! :(

A CMG is basically a gyroscope type thing with motors attached. Ever push on a gyroscope and see how it tilts in at an angle to the force? A set of these things mounted appropriately to the structure of the spacecraft can be used to turn or orient the spacecraft in three dimensions as they are acted upon differentially. They can also be spun up to sort of absorb outside forces acting on the spacecraft in order to keep it stable.

However, these are fixed masses, there is friction in the system (so they cannot spin forever) and it takes energy to keep them spinning. Simplifying (and with the caveat that I haven't studied these in depth since college twenty years ago) they can only absorb so much momentum before they have to be "desaturated." Momentum stored in the rotating mass of the CMG must be transferred - this is where thrusters come in, usually. They are fired as the momentum is bled of the CMGs slowly.

Anyway, the Wikipedia article on this is brief but appears at first glance to be basically correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Moment_Gyroscope

Sorry for the confusion.

[gslater]

Anyway, the Wikipedia article on this is brief but appears at first glance to be basically correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Moment_Gyroscope

Sorry for the confusion.

Good information. Still a little over my head but I understand the general idea.

Thanks for the info.

[smiddy]

Zenit is LOX (liquid oxygen) and kerosene, while Proton is N2O4/UDMH (which is: nitrogen tetroxide as the oxidizer, unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine as the fuel). And let me just say, those Proton propellants are some nasty stuff. The fallen stages, way down on the Asian steppes, are pretty highly toxic.

One whiff of hydrazine you might as well kiss your caboose good bye. :D Thanks for the information.

[Ken984]

new tle
1 32729U 08013A 08137.78788299 -.00000196 00000-0 00000+0 0 731
2 32729 000.0637 272.1434 0250128 291.0198 221.9941 01.00047843 704

Name DIRECTV 11
NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 2008-05-16 18:54:33
Orbit # at Epoch 70
Inclination 0.064
RA of A. Node 272.143
Eccentricity 0.0250128
Argument of Perigee 291.020
Revs per day 1.00047843
Period 23h 59m 18s (1439.30 min)
Semi-major axis 42 228 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 793 x 36 906 km
BStar (drag term) 0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly 221.994
Propagation model SDP4
Element number / age 73 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
Diameters N/A
Satellite group N/A

perigee plus 183km
apogee minus 172 km

[Sixto]

Past 5 TLE Projection: 5/22/08 07:18pm - 6.02 days at Day#64.07 at 6.87km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: 5/24/08 07:48am - 7.54 days at Day#65.60 at 5.48km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE73)
1 32729U 08013A 08137.78788299 -.00000196 00000-0 00000+0 0 731
2 32729 000.0637 272.1434 0250128 291.0198 221.9941 01.00047843 704

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-16-2008 18:54:33
Orbit # at Epoch 70
Inclination 0.064
RA of A. Node 272.143
Eccentricity 0.0250128
Argument of Perigee 291.020
Revs per day 1.00047843
Period 23h 59m 18s (1439.30 min)
Semi-major axis 42 228 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 793 x 36 906 km
Element number / age 73 / 0 day(s)


Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34,423 x 37,211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[steveken]

I am beginning to think we need one designated person to post the TLE's up here. I am guilty of posting them up when they are already posted, too. I just figure there isn't a need for 3 or 4 posts with relatively the same information in it. If we could combine the differences into one post, that would be great. Less clutter would help I think around here. What do you guys think?

[hdtvfan0001]

One whiff of hydrazine you might as well kiss your caboose good bye. :D Thanks for the information.
It might just turn you green...............oh...................now I get it. :D

[P Smith]

I am beginning to think we need one designated person to post the TLE's up here. I am guilty of posting them up when they are already posted, too. I just figure there isn't a need for 3 or 4 posts with relatively the same information in it. If we could combine the differences into one post, that would be great. Less clutter would help I think around here. What do you guys think?

I would keep Sixto's posts as one source of TLE and forecast.

[Ken984]

I just try to help Sixto out, tles can come at any time. He has done an amazing job keeping all the information up to date in the second post.

[Sixto]

I just try to help Sixto out, tles can come at any time. He has done an amazing job keeping all the information up to date in the second post.Yep, love the teamwork!

[DCappy]

I am beginning to think we need one designated person to post the TLE's up here. I am guilty of posting them up when they are already posted, too. I just figure there isn't a need for 3 or 4 posts with relatively the same information in it. If we could combine the differences into one post, that would be great. Less clutter would help I think around here. What do you guys think?

I'll defer to Sixto.

[bubbers44]

About 1.000 km to go apogee and perogee so who ever posts first doesn't matter. We are on the home stretch. Thanks to all that contributed. It has been an education for me. Found out a few things I didn't know before this thread.

[Sixto]

About 1.000 km to go apogee and perigee so who ever posts first doesn't matter. We are on the home stretch. Thanks to all that contributed. It has been an education for me. Found out a few things I didn't know before this thread.Yep, total team effort. Lefty, dms1, cartrivision with the rocket science stuff. Ken984, DCappy, DodgerKing with TLE updates, graphs, projections. P Smith to keep us honest. And many others participating all along the way. Not everyone's always available 7x24 so it's been great to have everyone pitch in.

Personally thankful to Ken984 and DCappy ... Ken984 is always quick noticing the new TLE, when I'm not so quick (!) or at work (yes, some of us do have jobs :) ) and DCappy has been a great source for comparative projections.

We're just a week or so away!

Less then a 1,000km to go (for the perigee).

[P Smith]

My spectrum analyzer warmed up and ready to capture new tpns.

[Sixto]

BTW, have added a new projection line ... because as we get closer, the short term TLE average change may be more accurate (whether it slows down or speeds up) ... now have the 5 TLE and 18 TLE average ... fairly safe we'll be somewhere within the range ... have gone back and added to the previous post and post#2.
Past 5 TLE Projection: 5/22/08 07:18pm - 6.02 days at Day#64.07 at 6.87km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: 5/24/08 07:48am - 7.54 days at Day#65.60 at 5.48km/hour

[Sixto]

Past 5 TLE Projection: 5/24/08 05:19am - 7.05 days at Day#65.49 at 5.30km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: 5/23/08 07:47pm - 6.65 days at Day#65.09 at 5.62km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE74)
1 32729U 08013A 08138.16985510 -.00000175 00000-0 00000+0 0 747
2 32729 000.0450 283.8219 0238382 278.5036 000.1136 00.99884251 708

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 05-17-2008 04:04:35
Orbit # at Epoch 70
Inclination 0.045
RA of A. Node 283.822
Eccentricity 0.0238382
Argument of Perigee 278.504
Revs per day 0.99884251
Period 24h 01m 40s (1441.67 min)
Semi-major axis 42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee 34 888 x 36 903 km
Element number / age 74 / 0 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) 34,888 x 36,903 km (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, + 95km)
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34,423 x 37,211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)

Last 5 TLE's above ...

Post #2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286) has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.

[smiddy]

Nice Sixto, it is getting real close.

[MIAMI1683]

Looks like you guys have been really busy, sixto, lefty, and everyone else who worked on this thing. Thank you for the education. looks like it parks today sometime. WOOHOO.....bring it on

[Sixto]

Looks like you guys have been really busy, sixto, lefty, and everyone else who worked on this thing. Thank you for the education. looks like it parks today sometime. WOOHOO.....bring it onstill got a week ... :)

[hdtvfan0001]

still got a week ... :)
Thanks for keeping us current.

Once parked...the 30 day transponder testing window opens...

[DCappy]

Day 58.4, TLE#74, 9:10:02 since last TLE (using past 30 TLE average).

Perigee increased 95km and has 898km to go.
Apogee decreased 3km and has 1,117km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 145.57km per day or 6.1km per hour.

7.0 more days or Saturday, May 24, 4:35 AM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


Never to much info. Thanks to Sixto and Ken984 TLE postings and decoding them, so I can put the number into my spreadsheet. I’ve decoded the date stamp, but I cannot figure out the Perigee or Apogee (still working on it).

Lefty, dms1, cartrivision with the rocket science stuff, maded my head hurt. Took a while to get my head around the “Figure 8 orbit”. I’ve learned a lot here.

A lot of people have to work (I’m retired) and don’t have the time. Like those that have posted graphs here, I’m trying to show a quick snapshot of where D11 is at and how long to go, in terms that do not require a college diploma.

[DodgerKing]

Latest Excel graph includes TLE 74

[dduitsman]

Latest Excel graph includes TLE 74
I really appreciate those graphs. Even I can see what the trends are.

I can't wait to see the new sat lit up.

Thanks,
dd

[smiddy]

Latest Excel graph includes TLE 74

Nice, every moment we get closer!

[hdtvfan0001]

I'm looking for the first "It's Parked" post this coming week some time. :) :)

[sat2631]

It is now at 99 W to start it's parking. Still moving around between 94 and 99 but it will park here.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7724/directv2008may18wz0.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=directv2008may18wz0.jpg)

[kevinwmsn]

Any bets to when we'll have this bird in the signal meter?

[Sing1gniS]

Any bets to when we'll have this bird in the signal meter?

When it is, what should we look for? 99c?

[Michael D'Angelo]

When it is, what should we look for? 99c?

yes

[hdtvfan0001]

yes
Last time it showed up on day 2 after D10 was parked....no values for several weeks after that....

[ub1934]

Its still moving , now at 102 WIt is now at 99 W to start it's parking. Still moving around between 94 and 99 but it will park here.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7724/directv2008may18wz0.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=directv2008may18wz0.jpg)

[sat2631]

Its still moving , now at 102 W

My Orbitron shows it moving back at 98 W now. Make sure you update your TLE to #74. It should not be at 102 W.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8595/directv2008may18odk9.th.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=directv2008may18odk9.jpg)

Also see : http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
.

[Sixto]

Everything is all just a projection, which is now based on a 2-day old TLE ... we'll get a new TLE eventually ...

[RAD]

Maybe it will be a surprise TLE like D10 had that none showed up for a few days and then bingo, it's parked?:D

[Sixto]

Maybe it will be a surprise TLE like D10 had that none showed up for a few days and then bingo, it's parked?:DSeems like the TLE updater has taken the last few weekends off :)