When do we get an HD guide on HD receivers?

[BKMaggert]

Seeing the new ESPN News channel along with CNBC and Fox Business channels, they make good use of smaller text that is readable on HD televisions. MUCH more data can be displayed on the screen with HD TVs.

Why are our HD boxes still showing the same SD program guide? Instead of showing me 6 channels at a time, we could easily read 10 or 12 on screen at once and save me much scrolling. Also, instead of only an hour and a half horizontally, give me 2 and a half. We could have more complete program information on the upper left of the guide screen too.

This whole guide should be revamped for HD boxes.

[Jeremy W]

This whole guide should be revamped for HD boxes.
I agree completely, but I have my doubts that the boxes are even capable of generating an HD GUI.

[smiddy]

I think this is on its way, if you notice the 3D logo was a start and will likely happen in the coming months, my ogre prediction!

[Jeremy W]

I think this is on its way, if you notice the 3D logo was a start and will likely happen in the coming months, my ogre prediction!
The 3D logo is still SD though. I don't see how that's a start on anything except possibly some new colors in the GUI.

[smiddy]

I suppose depending on your definition of SD and HD then perhaps. I think that efficient use of the screen layout is coming (at whatever depth) and I think part of that change is the 3D logos.

[Stuart Sweet]

I'm going to move this to the HR20 forum...

[lucky13]

Also, instead of only an hour and a half horizontally, give me 2 and a half.

Agree, but I'd like to see three hours, so I can view the entire prime-time schedule for a group of channels.

[Mike Bertelson]

I agree completely, but I have my doubts that the boxes are even capable of generating an HD GUI.

I would think some graphics and text in HD is a heck of lot less data then a HD show. It seems like it should be doable.

Mike

[Jeremy W]

I would think some graphics and text in HD is a heck of lot less data then a HD show. It seems like it should be doable.
The box isn't generating HD video, it simply decodes it using a specialized chip. Look at most local TV stations. They can pass on network HD programming without any issues, but if they need to overlay any graphics for something like a severe weather alert, they have to drop down to SD. That's a different situation, of course, but it illustrates what is going on here. The equipment needed to actually generate HD content is different from what's required to simply show it. And I'm not sure that DirecTV's receivers can do it.

[Greg Alsobrook]

I really hope we get an HD GUI soon...

[ATARI]

Look at most local TV stations. They can pass on network HD programming without any issues, but if they need to overlay any graphics for something like a severe weather alert, they have to drop down to SD.

I've noticed that since getting an HDTV, and it is very annoying.

I emailed my local CBS affiliate to complain, and was promised that new HD graphics will be in place by June.

[ATARI]

I really hope we get an HD GUI soon...

I hope so, too.

It's already on the wishlist.

[n3ntj]

Seeing the new ESPN News channel along with CNBC and Fox Business channels, they make good use of smaller text that is readable on HD televisions. MUCH more data can be displayed on the screen with HD TVs.

Why are our HD boxes still showing the same SD program guide? Instead of showing me 6 channels at a time, we could easily read 10 or 12 on screen at once and save me much scrolling. Also, instead of only an hour and a half horizontally, give me 2 and a half. We could have more complete program information on the upper left of the guide screen too.

This whole guide should be revamped for HD boxes.

I agree. Good suggestion. Revamp the current guide to show more channels, and please add the new channel logos at the upper left.

[kevinturcotte]

If the GUI goes HD, will it down-convert for SDTVs?

[Jeremy W]

If the GUI goes HD, will it down-convert for SDTVs?
Of course. Would the text be too small to read? I hope so! :lol:

[cartrivision]

The box isn't generating HD video, it simply decodes it using a specialized chip.

The box most certainly is generating HD video. How do you think they are able to output the video from the SD MPEG2 channels upconverted to 1080i? Yes it is done in specialized chips, but not as you state in the decoding chips.... unless the MPEG decoding chips are multi-purpose chips that also handle the HD video generation as a secondary step after the MPEG decoding process.

[cjever19]

Seeing the new ESPN News channel along with CNBC and Fox Business channels, they make good use of smaller text that is readable on HD televisions. MUCH more data can be displayed on the screen with HD TVs.

Why are our HD boxes still showing the same SD program guide? Instead of showing me 6 channels at a time, we could easily read 10 or 12 on screen at once and save me much scrolling. Also, instead of only an hour and a half horizontally, give me 2 and a half. We could have more complete program information on the upper left of the guide screen too.

This whole guide should be revamped for HD boxes.

GREAT IDEA! :joy:Let's see it D*TV

[cartrivision]

If the GUI goes HD, will it down-convert for SDTVs?

Here is a wild thought. Maybe they could to it right and display either a higher res GUI containing more information or a lower res GUI containing less information, based on a user setup selection or based on the 4:3 / 16:9 screen ratio setting.

[pilotboy72]

Here is a wild thought. Maybe they could to it right and display either a higher res GUI containing more information or a lower res GUI containing less information, based on a user setup selection or based on the 6:4 / 16:9 screen ratio setting.

Doesn't the guide display at the resolution and aspect of the currently-displayed channel? If that's the case, then there's probably a virtual mapping of the graphics capability inside the unit (e.g. a fixed 1000x800 pixel area) for displaying text. The other chips that covert the video for display handle the scaling of the entire video window.

Not sure that this is the case, but it would make for a smart design.

Brian

[cartrivision]

Doesn't the guide display at the resolution and aspect of the currently-displayed channel? If that's the case, then there's probably a virtual mapping of the graphics capability inside the unit (e.g. a fixed 1000x800 pixel area) for displaying text. The other chips that covert the video for display handle the scaling of the entire video window.

Not sure that this is the case, but it would make for a smart design.

Brian

Yes the GUI is displayed at whatever resolution the current video is displayed at, and probably as you state originating from a fixed resolution GUI buffer that is either upconverted or downconverted to match the current output resolution.

That's different from what I was suggesting. I was saying that they should either display more or less information depending on a setup preference or on an existing setup selection.

[kevinturcotte]

An "HD GUI" option would be fine, and work for those of use with SDTVs.

[Mike Bertelson]

The box isn't generating HD video, it simply decodes it using a specialized chip. Look at most local TV stations. They can pass on network HD programming without any issues, but if they need to overlay any graphics for something like a severe weather alert, they have to drop down to SD. That's a different situation, of course, but it illustrates what is going on here. The equipment needed to actually generate HD content is different from what's required to simply show it. And I'm not sure that DirecTV's receivers can do it.

Maybe I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time :rolleyes: ) but the receiver is also a computer running some kind of linux/unix OS.

Generating graphics & text akin to what we have now in 1280x720/1920x1080 vs 640x480 might be like changing monitor resolution by right clicking on the desktop.

Ok, I admit that's an over simplification but I wouldn't expect it's as difficult as generating a HD data stream for broadcast either. :)

Mike

[kevinturcotte]

"Use currently selected resolution for GUI" would be a good option. Default in 480i.

[spartanstew]

An "HD GUI" option would be fine, and work for those of use with SDTVs.

Agreed, it would need to be an option.

Both of my HR20's are hooked up to our living room HDTV, but they also feed 5 other SD TV's around the house, with the one in my office being only 15".

Don't think I'd want smaller text on that.

[cartrivision]

"Use currently selected resolution for GUI" would be a good option. Default in 480i.

But that's kind of confusing, since it already does display the GUI at the current resolution. What is desired is that the format of the GUI change, where more lines of text, more columns of text, and more hours of guide data are displayed (possibly based on the current resolution setting).

[TomCat]

The box most certainly is generating HD video... Technically, you are right. If the output is 720p or 1080i, that is considered HD by definition, at least as far as the actual display format goes. What it is NOT doing is presenting it in HD resolution. It is upconverted SD, which is not really considered HD by anyone.

If you want to be that precise about it, my old SD DVD player is displaying "HD video" when it is rescaled to the natural 1920x1080 resolution of my 1080p display, because 1920x1080 is defined as an HD resolution. Not only that, but everything on SPIKEHD and FXHD is then considered HD too, because it is displayed for me in what is considered an HD format. Is any of it really HD video? Not!

[d0ug]

Yes the GUI is displayed at whatever resolution the current video is displayed at, and probably as you state originating from a fixed resolution GUI buffer that is either upconverted or downconverted to match the current output resolution.

That's different from what I was suggesting. I was saying that they should either display more or less information depending on a setup preference or on an existing setup selection.

The guide, and all other on screen menus and info is still rendered in the 4:3 aspect ratio, then streched to fit 16:9 sets. if you ever use a an HR20 on a 4:3 set vs a 16:9 you'll see that the menus are wider, the directv logo is streched, text is wider in 16:9 mode

Text looks the same on a 4:3 set using both R15's and HR20's, with the HR20 in 16:9 mode it is clearly obvious all they are doing is streching it to fit 16:9

Funny thing though is radio buttons and check boxes in the menus seem to be rerendered for the selected aspect ratio, because the round radio buttons don't become ovals.

[Jeremy W]

The box most certainly is generating HD video. How do you think they are able to output the video from the SD MPEG2 channels upconverted to 1080i?
It's called a scaler. It doesn't make it HD, it just makes it HD resolution. Same with the GUI. Just another specialized chip.

[smiddy]

Whoa! What makes a GUI HD? What is the formal definition of a High Definition Graphical User Interface? I think it is the efficient use of the available field (or frame, your choice, perhaps screen resolution)...I think that is coming BTW, in the next month or so. :D

[Jeremy W]

What is the formal definition of a High Definition Graphical User Interface?
It's very simple: a GUI that is rendered at 1280x720 resolution or higher. The 640x480 GUI we have right now doesn't cut it.

[cartrivision]

It's called a scaler. It doesn't make it HD, it just makes it HD resolution. Same with the GUI. Just another specialized chip.

I never said that the source was HD graphics. I was just correcting your statement that the box wasn't capable of generating HD video, when in fact it can and does generate HD video…. and that’s what the HR20 is doing with the output of it’s scaler, regardless of what the resolution of the source material going into the scaler was, and regardless of whether the source going into the scaler originated from some outside source or from within the box.

The question isn’t if the box can generate HD video…. it can. The only question is if the graphics software and hardware can “draw” it’s GUI graphics at a resolution higher than what it does now, which barely appears to be up to typical SD TV resolution.

[cartrivision]

The guide, and all other on screen menus and info is still rendered in the 4:3 aspect ratio, then streched to fit 16:9 sets. if you ever use a an HR20 on a 4:3 set vs a 16:9 you'll see that the menus are wider, the directv logo is streched, text is wider in 16:9 mode

Text looks the same on a 4:3 set using both R15's and HR20's, with the HR20 in 16:9 mode it is clearly obvious all they are doing is streching it to fit 16:9

Funny thing though is radio buttons and check boxes in the menus seem to be rerendered for the selected aspect ratio, because the round radio buttons don't become ovals.

That's not entirely true. The GUI is a combination of graphics that are designed to be rendered in 4:3 and some that are designed to be rendered in 16:9.

For instance, on the grid guide display, the round objects appear perfectly circular when displayed in 16:9 and they look like tall ovals when displayed in 4:3, while in some of the preference menu screens, it’s just the opposite, round buttons appear circular when displayed in 4:3, and as wide ovals when displayed in 16:9.

[Jeremy W]

I was just correcting your statement that the box wasn't capable of generating HD video, when in fact it can and does generate HD video
It does not generate HD video. It upscales SD video to HD. You need to learn the definition of the word generate, because this box is not currently generating anything in HD.

[bhelton71]

It does not appear to be just the guide - best I can tell all of the UI elements are 480 rez. They would have a lot of work - also are those the same graphics as the R15/16 ? Folks have stated there is a general push to use a consistent interface so I imagine they are reusing it across the board.

Wonder if they could use SVG - of course that would be extra cycles on the processor :( - but they are doing TinySVG for cellphones.

[Jeremy W]

Folks have stated there is a general push to use a consistent interface so I imagine they are reusing it across the board.
But they can keep it consistent without making it exactly the same. The interface on the flagship HR21 is exactly the same as the interface on the lowly D10. That is absurd!

[houskamp]

I would guess you will see a HD rendered guide when there are no more SD channels.. imagine your TV switching res everytime you hit "info", "guide" or "menu" while watching a SD channel...

[bhelton71]

I would guess you will see a HD rendered guide when there are no more SD channels.. imagine your TV switching res everytime you hit "info", "guide" or "menu" while watching a SD channel...

Another good reason to go with scalable vector :D
Otherwise they would have to have 3 sets of images stored (480,720,1080)

[Jeremy W]

I would guess you will see a HD rendered guide when there are no more SD channels.. imagine your TV switching res everytime you hit "info", "guide" or "menu" while watching a SD channel...
My TV doesn't switch to 480p when I bring up the guide while watching an HD channel, so why would it switch to 720p/1080i for an HD guide while watching an SD channel? The guide would still go through the scaler just like it does now.

[houskamp]

My TV doesn't switch to 480p when I bring up the guide while watching an HD channel, so why would it switch to 720p/1080i for an HD guide while watching an SD channel? The guide would still go through the scaler just like it does now.
but a 1080 image scaled down to 480 would realy look bad.. just try it with a computer connected to a tv.. video may look fine but text becomes unreadable....

[Steve]

Seeing the new ESPN News channel along with CNBC and Fox Business channels, they make good use of smaller text that is readable on HD televisions. MUCH more data can be displayed on the screen with HD TVs.

Why are our HD boxes still showing the same SD program guide? Instead of showing me 6 channels at a time, we could easily read 10 or 12 on screen at once and save me much scrolling. Also, instead of only an hour and a half horizontally, give me 2 and a half. We could have more complete program information on the upper left of the guide screen too.

This whole guide should be revamped for HD boxes.We have this request on the current Wish List:

OPTION to display more GRID GUIDE information. More channels and hours.

If you haven't already voted, please let DirecTV know how you value this request here (http://www.sizethis.com/index.php?module=results&survey=28). TIA. /steve

[cartrivision]

It does not generate HD video. It upscales SD video to HD. You need to learn the definition of the word generate, because this box is not currently generating anything in HD.

Perhaps you need to learn the difference between HD video and the underlying resolution of the source material contained in an HD video signal. The HR20 can generate up to 1080i video, which by definition is HD video, just as TBSHD is always broadcasting in HD format, regardless if the program source is nothing but stretched and upscaled SD source material.

[Steve]

Perhaps you need to learn the difference between HD video and the underlying resolution of the source material contained in an HD video signal. The HR20 can generate up to 1080i video, which by definition is HD video, just as TBSHD is always broadcasting in HD format, regardless if the program source is nothing but stretched and upscaled SD source material.No, Jeremy was correct. SD-size formatted (generated) information is being upscaled to 720p or 1080i, depending on your settings. :) Same as a 4:3 SD 480i image being broadcast pillar-boxed in HD, as you describe. Just semantics, I think. /steve

[lwilli201]

With the wide range of TV sizes and different aspects, it would be great if the display menu would include selectable number of lines and hours to show. This way you could customize the guide to your TV and your viewing distance. Those with less then perfect vision could reduce the lines and hours making the text easy to read. There is no way that just 1 guide display will satisfy every one.

[jahgreen]

With the wide range of TV sizes and different aspects, it would be great if the display menu would include selectable number of lines and hours to show. This way you could customize the guide to your TV and your viewing distance. Those with less then perfect vision could reduce the lines and hours making the text easy to read. There is no way that just 1 guide display will satisfy every one.

I would think that DirecTV would want to have as few options as possible on what will be its mainstream box. Less chance of software glitches, fewer people seeking assistance on options they don't understand or have set incorrectly and can't figure out how to fix. Standardization is the way to go.

[cartrivision]

No, Jeremy was correct. SD-size formatted (generated) information is being upscaled to 720p or 1080i, depending on your settings. :) Same as a 4:3 SD 480i image being broadcast pillar-boxed in HD, as you describe. Just semantics, I think. /steve

That's exactly what I said. I never said that it wasn't an upscaled lower resolution source, only that the HR20 is capable of generating HD video, which it can and does. That's where Jeremy is wrong.

[Jeremy W]

That's where Jeremy is wrong.
Well then explain to me exactly what HD video the HR20 is generating. In order for it to be generating the video, it must originate from inside the box. Any video coming over the satellite or network doesn't count.

[Drew2k]

I suppose decoding the MPEG2/MPEG4 stream and outputting it via HDMI or other output could be construed as "generating", but I totally see Jeremy's point. The "content" is essentially "passed through", whereas the graphics are native.

[Steve]

I suppose decoding the MPEG2/MPEG4 stream and outputting it via HDMI or other output could be construed as "generating", but I totally see Jeremy's point. The "content" is essentially "passed through", whereas the graphics are native.Exacty. If you look closely at a letter like "y", you will see the same "jaggies" for both the SD and HD portrayals of the GUIDE text, which indicates the GUIDE is NOT being "regenerated" at a higher DPI when in 720p or 1080i.

Somewhat to the OP's point, it looks like they chose a lowest common denominator GUIDE font DPI for all resolutions. Same with the closed captions, as far as I can tell. An argument could be made that DirecTV should employ two different native type libraries... one appropriate for 480i/p display and a higher resolution one for 720p/1080i display.

Just my .02. /steve

[TomCat]

No, Jeremy was correct. SD-size formatted (generated) information is being upscaled to 720p or 1080i, depending on your settings. :) Same as a 4:3 SD 480i image being broadcast pillar-boxed in HD, as you describe. Just semantics, I think. /steve

Let's put away our dick-rulers. Everybody is correct.

Jeremy is correct in that the STB does not originate an HD-rez graphic from its internal chip.

Or is he? How do we know that the chip isn't producing HD-rez graphics which are down-rezzed automatically by the scaler, rather than up-rezzed? How do we know that it is not producing HD-rez graphics based on an SD-rez bitmap? I don't think anyone here can truly answer any of that, but my best guess is that Jeremy's assumption is a pretty-well-held one, and odds-on accurate, at a minimum.

Cartrivision is technically correct in saying the STB does "generate" HD video, because the definition of "generate" is to "cause something to come about", which is one explanation for its ability to take SD video and output it in an HD rez. It causes HD-rez video to "come about" from something that was not HD video, whether from incoming video or the internal graphics chip (which is ironically enough sometimes called a "graphics generator"), even if the true resolution and eventual perceived resolution are not considered to be HD-rez at all (sort of like SPIKEHD).

But I still question the choice of that term "generate", which as we have seen has made things somewhat confusing and muddy. It might be a technically-correct term, but certainly not the one that best defines the process in a way that people can avoid being confused by.

[Steve]

How do we know that the chip isn't producing HD-rez graphics which are down-rezzed automatically by the scaler, rather than up-rezzed? How do we know that it is not producing HD-rez graphics based on an SD-rez bitmap?By visually inspecting the letters on the screen, like I did in the previous post. :) Same exact "jaggies" appear in both resolutions. /steve

[cartrivision]

Well then explain to me exactly what HD video the HR20 is generating. In order for it to be generating the video, it must originate from inside the box. Any video coming over the satellite or network doesn't count.

I repeat... you need to learn the difference between HD video and the underlying resolution of the source material contained in an HD video signal.

The fact is that the HR20s can generate HD video. Whether or not an HR20 currently internally generates any kind of graphic or other video that makes full use of the resolution inherent in the HD video that it generates is immaterial. The capability to generate HD video is there. What is not known is if the HR20 has the capability to do the graphics processing that it currently does to present its GUI, but at a resolution that is equal to the resolution of the HD video signal that it can create. There is no question that the HR20 could be programmed to create a static graphic that takes full advantage of the resolution of the HD video signal that it can generate, but just doing that wouldn’t be of much use, other than to prove to some people that they are wrong when they say that the HR20 can’t do it.

[cartrivision]

...... I still question the choice of that term "generate", which as we have seen has made things somewhat confusing and muddy. It might be a technically-correct term, but certainly not the one that best defines the process in a way that people can avoid being confused by.

My only point in using that word is to point out that if the HR20 has the capability to draw graphics at a higher resolution than they currently use for their GUI, the HR20 has the capability to display those higher resolution graphics with their current capability to "generate" a HD video output.

[harsh]

If the GUI goes HD, will it down-convert for SDTVs?The guide is not a channel in the classic sense. It is generated internally from data downloaded from the satellites. As such, each receiver can render the guide as necessary to fit its capabilities and/or the user's desired format.

The point that JeremyW is trying to make is that the HR2x may not have a high resolution character generator with which to render the guide text. He may well be correct.

[Neural762]

With the wide range of TV sizes and different aspects, it would be great if the display menu would include selectable number of lines and hours to show. This way you could customize the guide to your TV and your viewing distance. Those with less then perfect vision could reduce the lines and hours making the text easy to read. There is no way that just 1 guide display will satisfy every one.

This is pretty much exactly what I suggested here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1527086#post1527086). I suggested modifying the existing wishlist item to reflect this, but obviously more people than just me need to add their support.

[harsh]

My only point in using that word is to point out that if the HR20 has the capability to draw graphics at a higher resolution than they currently use for their GUI, the HR20 has the capability to display those higher resolution graphics with their current capability to "generate" a HD video output.This may not be the case. As an example of a situation where you're theory doesn't hold water is when you look at the graphics that a cheap TV uses to render the channel numbers and other messages. While the TV can display a very high resolution picture, its internal overlay capability (character generator) may be quite limited in both color and resolution.

[Steve]

Seems to me the HR2x is no different than any computer running Windows, Linux or MacOS, with built-in type libraries that today all use scalable fonts. The resolution at which these fonts are rendered is determined by that OS's GUI's screen-rendering algorithms.

E.g., if you're on a Windows machine, right click on the desktop and go to properties, settings, advanced. You can change the DPI of your screen fonts right there.

I'd be surprised if DirecTV wrote their GUI from scratch, and if whatever Linux "desktop" they're using to generate their graphical screens doesn't have some sort of similiar display font scaling capability built-in.

Just my .02.

/steve

[Steve]

This is pretty much exactly what I suggested here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1527086#post1527086). I suggested modifying the existing wishlist item to reflect this, but obviously more people than just me need to add their support.As I mentioned in response to that post, I've never seen a request for a larger GUIDE font size for visually impaired folks on this forum. As I said there, I invite others to weigh-in, if it turns out there is a significant need for this. :)

The request most-often heard in these forums has always been for the display of more channels and more hours, which the Wish List request accurately conveys, IMO. Whether DirecTV does this by giving us the option to make the type smaller, or to redesign the available screen space more efficiently, will be up to them, should they choose to address our request.

Just my .02. /steve

[Jeremy W]

I'd be surprised if DirecTV wrote their GUI from scratch
They did...
and if whatever Linux "desktop" they're using to generate their graphical screens doesn't have some sort of similiar display font scaling capability built-in.
It's not a "desktop," that's the whole issue. Linux is just the kernel, nothing more. DirecTV's applications are running on top of the kernel, and they handle everything that you see.

[Steve]

They did...

It's not a "desktop," that's the whole issue. Linux is just the kernel, nothing more. DirecTV's applications are running on top of the kernel, and they handle everything that you see.Well if you're right and that's the case, I question the decision to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. You think they'd have bigger fish to fry than to develop their own GUI!!! :eek2:

That being said, if they are using bit-mapped fonts instead of scalable fonts, if they wanted to. that still wouldn't stop them from deploying a second set of higher-resolution bitmaps for use at HD resolutions. /steve

[Jeremy W]

Well if that's the case, I question the decision to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. You think they'd have bigger fish to fry than to develop their own GUI!!! :eek2: /steve
I don't think you'll be able to find too many ready-made GUIs for a satellite HD DVR...