View Full Version : Use "Original Air Date" to determine First Run/Repeat status?
This morning I did a SEARCH for all shows marked "First Run" in the GUIDE data and came up with a total of 445. A SEARCH for "Repeat" found 3,065 shows. I estimate* there are about 70,000 shows in my current GUIDE data. Using these numbers:
Less than 1% of shows are marked "First Run"
A little over 4% are marked "Repeat"That means 95% of the shows in the GUIDE are not properly tagged with First Run/Repeat information!
Who's fault is this? DirecTV's, TMS's (the GUIDE data supplier), or the networks' (where the data originates)? My guess is it's the network's fault, because there is no incentive for them to label a show "REPEAT" and risk making it a less attractive viewing choice. And I can't imagine that if the first run or repeat tag was being supplied that either TMS or DirecTV would be ignoring it.
That being said, after spot-checking shows in the GUIDE, it appears that about 99% of them show the program's "Original Air Date". Taking advantage of this fact should make it relatively simple matter for DirecTV to calculate a show's First Run/Repeat status, even for shows that premiers and air multiple times a day.
I propose adding the following request to the Wish List:
When unknown, use a program's "Original Air Date" to calculate "First Run/Repeat" status.
Please let me know if you agree. And if you vote "Other, explained below", please preface your post with "I voted other, ..." .
TIA. /steve
*NOTE: According to my Favorites Set-up, I "get" 581 channels. If each channel averages 10 shows a day and there is 12 days worth of data in the GUIDE, that amounts to about 70,000 shows.
The Merg
04-15-08, 07:04 AM
Ummm... Where's the poll? :)
As for my choice, I think that using the OAD might be beneficial, but there are still issues with using that. As an example, what about shows that have previously aired on one network and are now being shown on another?
For example, my wife decided to finally watch the final season of Buffy since it was airing on FX. We created a SL and set it to First Run so only the showings on Saturday and Sunday morning would be recorded. If you looked at the OAD though, it obviously was not a First Run.
Another example is Dexter on CBS. The OAD is the date it originally aired on Showtime, but they are First Runs on CBS. If we went by the OAD, it would not record episodes if the SL was set for First Run.
- Merg
Another example is Dexter on CBS. The OAD is the date it originally aired on Showtime, but they are First Runs on CBS. If we went by the OAD, it would not record episodes if the SL was set for First Run.Excellent point, and in this case, I would put the burden on CBS to make sure that "First Run" is present in the Dexter data they supply CBS, since my suggestion is to only use "Original Air Date" when "First Run" or "Repeat" is not already present in the GUIDE data.
Obviously no solution will be perfect, but I believe using OAD can't be worse than the current method, whatever that is. :)
/steve
pkoutoul
04-15-08, 07:36 AM
Sounds like a reasonable solution to me. It can't be any worse than the current situation.
Greg Alsobrook
04-15-08, 08:04 AM
very nice idea steve!! i'm on board for sure...
tcusta00
04-15-08, 08:42 AM
Obviously no solution will be perfect, but I believe using OAD can't be worse than the current method, whatever that is. :)
Exactly right - the only way it's ever gonna be perfect is if the networks fix the way they code the shows, and they really have no incentive to do it, like you said. I think this is the best way DirecTV can cope with the data they're provided.
Maverickster
04-15-08, 08:52 AM
I'm all for throwing the network under the bus on this, but if it's the network, can anyone tell me why TV Guide listings appear to be largely correct when they label things as repeats and, more appropo to this issue, why TiVo gets this right? For that reason, I tend to think that it's the guide data provider, not the networks; and since DirecTV can select their guide data provider, by extension, this is their problem -- a problem they really need to fix.
My .02.
--Mav
I'm all for throwing the network under the bus on this, but if it's the network, can anyone tell me why TV Guide listings appear to be largely correct when they label things as repeats and, more appropo to this issue, why TiVo gets this right? For that reason, I tend to think that it's the guide data provider, not the networks; and since DirecTV can select their guide data provider, by extension, this is their problem -- a problem they really need to fix.
My .02.
--Mav
My TIVo doesn't always "get it right". I've had lots of times where guide data was wrong from the network and my TiVo assumed that a repeat was a first run, since there was no data indicating it was a repeat. Happens all the time with Comedy Central because of their bad guide data, and it will record the same show multiple times a day because there is NO guide data... just a generic description.
mikep554
04-15-08, 09:07 AM
My TIVo doesn't always "get it right".
Agreed. Before I had my fling with Dish, I had a DirecTivo. It would dutifully reocord The Daily Show with Jon Stewart 5 times a day. Three of them were the previous day's episode, one was the new episode, and then one repeat of the current day's episode.
As far as incentive for the networks, because of the issues with recording the Daily Show, I had to move it down on the priority list so that if there were two other shows to record, one of them wouldn't get beaten by a re-run of the Daily Show. Of course, this also meant that there was more chance that there would be two shows to record during the timeslot that the new Daily Show episode aired, and I might not watch the Daily Show on that day.
Sirshagg
04-15-08, 09:11 AM
So long as it's a secondary check I can't see how it would hurt and it could possibly be very helpful.
Greg Alsobrook
04-15-08, 09:14 AM
i think it would also be helpful for the HR2x to keep a better history so it doesn't record the same episode 5 times...
Maverickster
04-15-08, 09:43 AM
My TIVo doesn't always "get it right". I've had lots of times where guide data was wrong from the network and my TiVo assumed that a repeat was a first run, since there was no data indicating it was a repeat. Happens all the time with Comedy Central because of their bad guide data, and it will record the same show multiple times a day because there is NO guide data... just a generic description.
Yup. When the guide data was bad or there was a generic description (Comedy Central is a good example, as is SportsCenter), TiVo wouldn't "get it right"; but those are the only instances I recall having a problem with TiVo and I had a significantly expanded harddrive and upwards of 50 Season Passes. The HR20, on the other hand, is completely unreliable in this regard. The point is that TiVo "does it" and "gets it right" with significantly better regularity than the HR20 does. TiVo's not perfect either, but it's impossible to argue that it's anywhere near as bad as the DirecTV product -- in this regard anyway.
--Mav
Personally I really have very few problems with this issue but maybe I'm not doing anything that complex. When I do have problems I tend to get more rather than missed.
The issue is complex with "repeats" showing on different networks. I guess I'd need a new, repeat and maybe new on this network category which adds to complexity.
As I think about it would be nice also to have a category that would be after a certain date on this network (missed the original This Old House on PBS and want to pick up this year's episodes on ?? - whatever network carries the repeats). Could also work for the Law & Orders that are on TNT - I know it isn't new but I missed half the season and now want to pick it up. I'm probably not explaining it great but I think you folks get the idea.
I'm all for throwing the network under the bus on this, but if it's the network, can anyone tell me why TV Guide listings appear to be largely correct when they label things as repeats and, more appropo to this issue, why TiVo gets this right? For that reason, I tend to think that it's the guide data provider, not the networks; and since DirecTV can select their guide data provider, by extension, this is their problem -- a problem they really need to fix.
My .02.
--MavGiven their primary mission statement, TV Guide must have an editing system in place that cleans up the data, based on OAD. And TiVo as well.
Just a guess on my part, of course. /steve
As I think about it would be nice also to have a category that would be after a certain date on this network (missed the original This Old House on PBS and want to pick up this year's episodes on ?? - whatever network carries the repeats). Could also work for the Law & Orders that are on TNT - I know it isn't new but I missed half the season and now want to pick it up. I'm probably not explaining it great but I think you folks get the idea.You hit on another of my pet peeves. :)
Now that we have OAD data in the INFO, it would be nice to be able to set-up KEYWORD AUTORECORDS using the DATE field, which is currently not an available option.
At the simplest level, I'd love to be able to KEYWORD AUTORECORD CSI DDATE 2008, to find only this year's episodes of the various CSI's.
More sophisticated might be something like CSI DDATE 0108 0308, to find only episodes from Jan to Mar.
/steve
Definitely the OAD should be used. I don't know if it should be the ONLY criteria, but it should be used ...
Definitely the OAD should be used. I don't know if it should be the ONLY criteria, but it should be used ...Yup. The request is to only it when First Run/Repeat is missing from the existing data... which appears to be over 95% of the time, based on the numbers I ran this morning.
That's an important distinction, because in the Dexter example above, we wouldn't want OAD to override a "First Run" flag, if CBS was savvy enough to include that information in their listing.
For those that aren't aware, CBS is currently showing episodes of Dexter that originally aired on Showtime, so while they are not technically "first-runs", they are as far as CBS is concerned. /steve
coolyman
04-15-08, 11:01 AM
Where is the Original Air Date? I don't see that in my guide for any show.
HR20-700 0x1fe
Where is the Original Air Date? I don't see that in my guide for any show.
HR20-700 0x1feIt's not shown in the GUIDE data view, but if you highlight a show and hit INFO, you'll see it there.
:welcome_s to the forums, BTW. :) /steve
Earl Bonovich
04-15-08, 11:16 AM
It's not shown in the GUIDE data view, but if you highlight a show and hit INFO, you'll see it there.
:welcome_s to the forums, BTW. :) /steve
It's not in version 0x1FE...
You will have to wait till the next national release (or participate in the CEs)
It's not in version 0x1FE...
You will have to wait till the next national release (or participate in the CEs)D'oh! Forgot about that. Thanks, Earl! /steve
Agreed. Before I had my fling with Dish, I had a DirecTivo. It would dutifully reocord The Daily Show with Jon Stewart 5 times a day. Three of them were the previous day's episode, one was the new episode, and then one repeat of the current day's episode.
As far as incentive for the networks, because of the issues with recording the Daily Show, I had to move it down on the priority list so that if there were two other shows to record, one of them wouldn't get beaten by a re-run of the Daily Show. Of course, this also meant that there was more chance that there would be two shows to record during the timeslot that the new Daily Show episode aired, and I might not watch the Daily Show on that day.
All I did was set up a manual recording for M-F for the Daily show. If it was a repeat, I didn't watch it, and I always deleted the Friday show (non Daily Show during that time period) from the ToDo list.
Much easier than sifting through five recordings per day.
inkahauts
04-15-08, 03:57 PM
I don't think it should ever use the shows flag of first run or repeat...
just use original air date...
However, I also believe that a feature should be implemented that if a show is set for first run episodes, but is not recorded because of a conflict and it is the lowest on the totem poll, then it should be recorded at the next available airing, based on that paticular shows serial number...
I don't think it should ever use the shows flag of first run or repeat...
just use original air date...Hmm. What about the Dexter (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1553202&postcount=17) example above? /steve
I'm happy to report that after just 3 days on the Wish List (http://www.sizethis.com/index.php?module=results&survey=28&category=0), "When "First Run/Repeat" status is unknown, use a program's "Original Air Date" to calculate it" is currently the highest-scoring item!
/steve
fineware
04-18-08, 07:54 AM
[QUOTE=Steve;1552850]When unknown, use a program's "Original Air Date" to calculate "First Run/Repeat" status.
Steve, I'm thinking there needs to be two tags to make this work. I don't think you can get there with only one.
Case 1: The program is actually first run on that network, as you point out on CBS for a show that originally aired on Showtime. We have the same problem with Torchwood on HDNet (in HD), only being two weeks delayed from the original air date on BBC America (in SD). In this case, I want all the first run shows on HDNet, but not BBCA.
Case 2: The program is first run on that network, but is actually a repeat of something that was originally aired years ago. For example, what if say, TVLand picks up some obscure show from the 50s or 60s that they've never aired before. Can we consider something that's 40 or 50 years old to be an original air date?
Case 3: The program is first aired in the States, vs. Canada or the UK...
I'm sure when the guide is created, they're really thinking that an original air date is the premiere date - anywhere, and anything else is a repeat. In order to fix this, you almost need another flag called "first run for this channel only" to make this work correctly, and that's what we should have an option to choose. The only problem with that is that adds an extra thing for the guide people to track and possibly screw up. :)
I'm sure when the guide is created, they're really thinking that an original air date is the premiere date - anywhere, and anything else is a repeat. In order to fix this, you almost need another flag called "first run for this channel only" to make this work correctly, and that's what we should have an option to choose. The only problem with that is that adds an extra thing for the guide people to track and possibly screw up. :)Actually, there's another way. If the "28-day rule" could be user-configurable, you could set it to, say, 1 or 2 years, and then set up your SL's for Episode type "both". Then, as long as the program description info is accurate, you would be assured of only getting unique episodes on a given channel.
This would be a lot simpler to do, IMO, then to depend on "variable" OAD coding, which may be possible, but who's responsibility is it? The networks'? TMS's? That's information DirecTV can't (or shouldn't) be asked to determine.
Just my .02. /steve
fineware
04-18-08, 08:47 AM
That's information DirecTV can't (or shouldn't) be asked to determine.
I was under the impression that DirecTV had very little to do with the guide data other than use and interpretation, and that the data itself was basically a database maintained by some news organization such as the Times. Not much you can do if the data's collected, compiled, and/or disseminated incorrectly. Garbage in, garbage out, as they say.
inkahauts
04-18-08, 04:31 PM
Hmm. What about the Dexter (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1553202&postcount=17) example above? /steve
You would need to use repeats and first runs... Technically,you could say Dexter is in syndication on CBS, and while this is a somewhat unusual circumstance, it is what it is. The show is not new nor is it first run, so why should it get an exception? Besides, all SL's right now only look for shows on 1 channel, so it wouldn't be recording multiple airings of the same show on CBS because of its history rule anyway...
I don't think that Dexter should cause Directv to create a workaround in how it choose first run episodes... There wil always be one or two exceptions to the rule... I think they need to give us more options in recording menus, like time frames of OAD in SL's and ARSL's to fix the Dexter issue.
vBulletin® v3.7.6, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.