New New HR-20 installation tomorrow - questions

[n6nfg]

Hi,

I finally decided to update my MPEG2 HR10 to an HR20. I have an installation scheduled for tomorrow morning. A few months ago, I purchased an HR-20-700 at Costco (wanted the OTA tuner), knowing that I could return it in 90 days if I didn't get the deal I wanted from Directv. Well, yesterday, I called them and they confirmed that my account had been tagged to receive a free HD-DVR upgrade finally, so I said "fine, lets go for it". When I indicated that I wanted to receive a purchase credit for $199 and get my own receiver retail, she said "no problem, I'll note it on your account". The system wouldn't actually issue me the credit at this point, I am guessing because I haven't activated the new receiver yet.

Questions:

1. Has anyone had trouble getting this credit applied after the installer has come and done his stuff? Should I get the installation hotline (number given to me by CSR yesterday to handle any installation problems) on the phone and pursue the credit before I sign the installation paperwork?

2. Original dish installation was self installed, and was never grounded. The new dish will need to be moved a few feet to get the 5 orbit slots. Will the installer now install a ground rod since he is doing a "new" dish install? The electrical service panel is on the other side of the house, so I don't think he can just run a wire to it.

3. Is there a small set of orbital slots/transponders that I should confirm have good signal strength before the installer leaves?

4. Whatever firmware is installed in the HR-20 is "old" at this point (unit was last powered on when built, many months ago). When should I expect a new update to be installed? For the moment there will be no internet connected, just a phone line.

Thanks

[tcusta00]

Hi,

I finally decided to update my MPEG2 HR10 to an HR20. I have an installation scheduled for tomorrow morning. A few months ago, I purchased an HR-20-700 at Costco (wanted the OTA tuner), knowing that I could return it in 90 days if I didn't get the deal I wanted from Directv. Well, yesterday, I called them and they confirmed that my account had been tagged to receive a free HD-DVR upgrade finally, so I said "fine, lets go for it". When I indicated that I wanted to receive a purchase credit for $199 and get my own receiver retail, she said "no problem, I'll note it on your account". The system wouldn't actually issue me the credit at this point, I am guessing because I haven't activated the new receiver yet.

Questions:

1. Has anyone had trouble getting this credit applied after the installer has come and done his stuff? Should I get the installation hotline (number given to me by CSR yesterday to handle any installation problems) on the phone and pursue the credit before I sign the installation paperwork?

2. Original dish installation was self installed, and was never grounded. The new dish will need to be moved a few feet to get the 5 orbit slots. Will the installer now install a ground rod since he is doing a "new" dish install? The electrical service panel is on the other side of the house, so I don't think he can just run a wire to it.

3. Is there a small set of orbital slots/transponders that I should confirm have good signal strength before the installer leaves?

4. Whatever firmware is installed in the HR-20 is "old" at this point (unit was last powered on when built, many months ago). When should I expect a new update to be installed? For the moment there will be no internet connected, just a phone line.

Thanks


1) Nothing's written in stone until it's done - just document everything including names and badge numbers and you should be fine.

2) Is a dish install on the work order?

3) All of them. It only takes a minute to check

4) You will get an update usually fairly quickly, and if not, you can force it by rebooting and upon seeing the first blue screen press 0 2 4 6 8 deliberately in sequence and within 30 seconds you should see the new software downloading. You don't need internet or phone for this - it's done via the satellite.

[tcusta00]

deleted - double post

[glennb]

The installers are supposed to ground the dish but they probably won't.

[Hansen]

The installers are supposed to ground the dish but they probably won't.

At the very least, I would not anticipate them puttting a grounding rod in as part of the free install. If the installer grounds it, he'll probably look for your service ground if nearby or a cold water pipe if nearby.

[n6nfg]

1) Nothing's written in stone until it's done - just document everything including names and badge numbers and you should be fine.

2) Is a dish install on the work order?



Here is the order that shows up under my account on directv:

04/30/08 50992944 $0.00 Professional Installation 05/02/08 (8AM to Noon) - Reschedule

Item Description Total Qty Price
Relocate Existing HDDVR IRD Free 1 $0.00

Professional Installation Free 1 $0.00

DIRECTV 5-LNB Multi-Satellite Dish Free 1 $0.00

Standard Professional Install Free
Handling $0.00
Tax $0.00

The CSR indicated that she had added notes to the installer that a zinwill 6x8 switch would be necessary (I need at least 5 outputs for current active receivers) and that existing coax would probably need to be lengthened due to dish relocation.

These notes, along with the retail purchase credit don't seem to be available to the consumer on the web site. I do have the CSR badge number however, so hopefully everything will come out ok :)

[tcusta00]

I've always assumed that grounding rods would be part of a pole mount install (since mine was) but that may or may not be the case. You could just go buy a 4ft grounding rod and pound it in yourself.

[TomCat]

...Original dish installation was self installed, and was never grounded. The new dish will need to be moved a few feet to get the 5 orbit slots. Will the installer now install a ground rod since he is doing a "new" dish install? The electrical service panel is on the other side of the house, so I don't think he can just run a wire to it.

---Is there a small set of orbital slots/transponders that I should confirm have good signal strength before the installer leaves?...Installers align Ku to 110 and 119. If these are done precisely, the rest fall in line automatically. The achilles heel of this concept is that Ka (and MPEG4 HD) needs a much-more precise alignment, and installers are conditioned to get it in the ball park only. To do this properly, they have to dither properly, which takes another 2 minutes of the installers "exceptionally-valuable" time (they are paid by the piece, not by the hour, so quality is not a driving force). Most are also in a long-standing habit of not doing this, since it only became an issue with the 5lnb dishes, and since you can still get acceptable Ku numbers (but not Ka numbers) without doing it.

I think it helps to make a nuisance of yourself regarding this, quite frankly. People always take the path of least resistance. If an installer thinks this path is a quick-and-dirty install and out the door, that is probably what you will get. If they perceive that you may make their life miserable if numbers on HD are not high, that becomes their path of least resistance.

There are ways to shepherd this process. If they see you holding a printed copy of the Slimline install manual that you downloaded from the internet when you open the door to greet them, that may indicate that you are going to be less than a pushover.

If you ask questions about the aiming process that indicate that you are concerned about a proper install for the HD channels, that could help. Ask about support struts to prevent windloading, which many Slimline installs require.

I think it also helps to have them verify numbers on Ka sats using the screens in the DVR, especially since most have no way to actually even see Ka signals on the meter they use to align the dish to Ku 110 and 119. I like to use a digital camera to take snaps of those screens just after installation (and while the installer is still there to see you doing that). Not only does that give you a baseline reading if you ever suspect things have gone out of alignment, but if you ask for the email address of their supervisor that raises the spectre in their minds that if these numbers aren't good, you might email them to his boss and ask him what he thinks. Not that you would threaten that, but it becomes a great passive use of positive intimidation. The last thing they want is to have to come back and fix it on their own dime.

Offering a cold beer during the dish aiming process couldn't hurt. They will then at least feel obliged to stay in the general vicinity of the dish long enough to drink it, which could improve chances for a thorough install. Maybe not so much for an 8 AM install, I guess (try coffee).

One of the ideas of a ground rod is to divert lightning strikes away from the house, internal equipment, and local power. I've never heard of a grounding procedure that connects the cable ground to power ground, probably for that very reason. A ground rod is a separate ground, and connecting various grounds together is also frowned upon. Question them about how they will ground, but I would not expect them to set a ground rod for you.

[TomCat]

I've always assumed that grounding rods would be part of a pole mount install (since mine was) but that may or may not be the case. You could just go buy a 4ft grounding rod and pound it in yourself.If the local terrain is a lot of clay or is sandy, usually anything less than 8 ft would run the risk of not being that good of a ground, which is normally why 8 ft is specified. If you are going to the trouble, might as well get an 8-footer, copper-clad.

Here's a tip: I have pounded in a couple of rods that once they got to a foot or two above ground, hit a void and just disappeared (the last 2 feet just sink in all at once and you end up starting over again, with a new rod). That's a wonderful little present on a hot summer day. :rolleyes: After that happened to me twice, I started clamping a vise-grips about 6 inches below the top of the rod, removing it only once the rod was fully in place.

Here's another: Usually the ground wire will have to run vertically and then horizontally (or vice versa). Instead of a sharp 90-degree bend, sweep the bend in a gentle curve. The theory is that extreme current such as that from lightning, really wants to travel in a straight line, and will just not make that sharp right turn (the laws of physics regarding plasma are a bit wacky at extreme high currents) and will instead partially leap from there directly to the ground itself, or maybe find another route to ground that wasn't what you had in mind. That can effectively place the resistance of that "jump" in parallel with another resistor, which is your DVR and TV, instead of the "short" to ground that is normally created by the ground rod. The rules of current division through parallel resistors are that most of the current will then go to ground back up to the ground block and through the lower-value resistance (guess which one that is) rather than draining to ground through the ground rod.

[Coffey77]

I've always assumed that grounding rods would be part of a pole mount install (since mine was) but that may or may not be the case. You could just go buy a 4ft grounding rod and pound it in yourself.
4 ft. isn't going to do you much good.
If the local terrain is a lot of clay or is sandy, usually anything less than 8 ft would run the risk of not being that good of a ground, which is normally why 8 ft is specified. If you are going to the trouble, might as well get an 8-footer, copper-clad.

Here's a tip: I have pounded in a couple of rods that once they got to a foot or two above ground, hit a void and just disappeared (the last 2 feet just sink in all at once and you end up starting over again, with a new rod). That's a wonderful little present on a hot summer day. :rolleyes: After that happened to me twice, I started clamping a vise-grips about 6 inches below the top of the rod, removing it only once the rod was fully in place.

Here's another: Usually the ground wire will have to run vertically and then horizontally (or vice versa). Instead of a sharp 90-degree bend, sweep the bend in a gentle curve. The theory is that extreme current such as that from lightning, really wants to travel in a straight line, and will just not make that sharp right turn (the laws of physics regarding plasma are a bit wacky at extreme high currents) and will instead partially leap from there directly to the ground itself, or maybe find another route to ground that wasn't what you had in mind. That can effectively place the resistance of that "jump" in parallel with another resistor, which is your DVR and TV, instead of the "short" to ground that is normally created by the ground rod. The rules of current division through parallel resistors are that most of the current will then go to ground back up to the ground block and through the lower-value resistance (guess which one that is) rather than draining to ground through the ground rod.
If you have some trouble driving a ground rod, you can also dig a trench and "lay" it down in there. As far as bending the wire, electricity/lightning follows the path of "least resistance" and it really doesn't care which direction it travels to get there, it IS just trying to reach "ground", or in '08 code they're really pushing "earth", which is why it seems to always want to go down. :)

Another trick, if you're soil isn't the greatest for catching electricity - DRINK a lot of coffee/water/fluids and use the soil around your ground rod as your "port-o-potty". Yes - this sounds disgusting but it DOES work. Just watch for neighbors and probably, police! :D

As for installers "driving a ground rod". I haven't found one yet that does but that doesn't mean they don't. RobertE might be able to shed light on if his crew or he does but I've never seen it. They find a way and have been taught MANY ways to provide a gounding means - just not exactly the right means.

[David MacLeod]

a lot of municipalities are now calling for 2 8 foot rods separated by approx 4 feet driven full length as code.

[tcusta00]

4 ft. isn't going to do you much good.



I've read that 4ft is okay for dishes, but this is exactly why one should have a qualified installer do the work! Thanks for the clarification. :grin:

[glennb]

Another trick, if you're soil isn't the greatest for catching electricity - DRINK a lot of coffee/water/fluids and use the soil around your ground rod as your "port-o-potty". Yes - this sounds disgusting but it DOES work. Just watch for neighbors and probably, police! :D
:rolleyes:

Maybe you could just bring a bucket of water over to where you want to put the ground rod and pour the water on the soil instead of taking a piss out in the yard.
:D

[bakers12]

If you want to drive a ground rod, buy a short length (1-2 feet is enough) of black pipe and a cap for one end. The inside diameter of the pipe should be just big enough to easily slide over the ground rod.

Use the capped pipe to hammer the rod into the ground as far as it will go (this is why you want a short pipe). Then you can finish the rest with a mallet. If there is more than a foot or so of the rod sticking out of the ground, it can be a real challenge to get a clean hit on it with the hammer.

Also, NEC standards call for 8-foot ground rods at least a half-inch diameter if copper-clad (I think, 5/8 inch if not clad).

And saltwater works, too, if you don't want to risk trouble with the neighbors and/or authorities.

[Coffey77]

I've read that 4ft is okay for dishes, but this is exactly why one should have a qualified installer do the work! Thanks for the clarification. :grin:
While it could be argued that it "could" be okay, it might not offer the path of least resistance and the lightning may like your coax run a bit nicer than a 4' piece of copper. :) I believe you can drive a couple 4' pieces here and there to grab more "earth" area. :)

[Coffey77]

:rolleyes:

Maybe you could just bring a bucket of water over to where you want to put the ground rod and pour the water on the soil instead of taking a piss out in the yard.
:D
It's not the water part of it per-say, it's the acid in the urine I believe - or salt as the next poster says...

[glennb]

It's not the water part of it per-say, it's the acid in the urine I believe - or salt as the next poster says...

I doubt it.

Why would salt water and acid make the ground softer any faster ?

When I put in my ground rod I dug a small starter hole filled it with ordinary city tap water, waited a few minutes for it to soak in, and the ground rod went right in.

[bakers12]

It's not for softening the ground. It's providing ions into the ground. Ions conduct electricity, but plain water hardly does.

[paulman182]

And all you have to do is urinate in the area several times per day to keep it conducting...

[tcusta00]

Oy - this thread has gone down the toilet. No pun intended!~

[glennb]

And all you have to do is urinate in the area several times per day to keep it conducting...

I think you only have to urinate on it just before a storm starts.... according to way these guys are saying..... :sure:

[n6nfg]

Ok, Ok, please don't piss me off :)

Installer came on time (well, in the middle of the 4 hour window) and did a nice job. The dish has TWO support struts, and really doesn't move. I watched him check the signal strengths inside after the install, and they all look in the upper 80's and 90's.

He grounded the new dish to the closest water pipe, which isn't really much good in my house, as the main line from the street is PVC, its only copper inside the house (which has the water lines in the attic). Well, at least its connected to something. I have my own rod that I drove in many years ago for my Ham Radio install, but its not really close enough to help here either.

Within 15 minutes the HR20 had downloaded a new firmware set and restarted. All seems well for the moment. I don't see evidence of my OTA channels in the guide yet, so maybe I need to to through the setup and make sure this is turned on. Had to go to work, will deal with this tonight.

Now the retraining of my wife begins (she really doesn't deal with change too well, TIVO to HR20) :confused:

[Coffey77]

Actually, you might want to be as far away from it as possible if the storm starts - like a dog going on an electric fence... :D

Yes, some of this thread has gone south - all because of me!!

Figured he'd ground it to the water line which should be okay as long as that's not your grounding souce. Hopefully, your pipe is bonded to a ground rod outside.