Everybody's talking about TiVo...

[Mark Holtz]

From the SF Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/24/BU145717.DTL&type=business) (although I found the link from another board):

Everybody's talking about TiVo, but the digital video recorder pioneer is just one of many

Tivo Inc. recently received an endorsement of celestial proportions from the head of the Federal Communications Commission.

"TiVo is God's machine," raved FCC Chairman Michael Powell during a public appearance at the 2003 Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last month. "TiVo is God in my household. I can't wait to walk in the house each day to see what it's recorded for me."

Such lavish praise isn't new for the San Jose company that helped pioneer digital video recorders, or DVRs. After all, fans such as Oprah Winfrey regularly convert the well-known brand name into a verb, as in, "I TiVo CNN."

However, TiVo has yet to post a profit since it went public in September 1999, and its tapeless video recorder has not been a runaway consumer electronics hit.

Full article here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/24/BU145717.DTL&type=business)

[Nick]

"And TiVo isn't even the top dog in the U.S. market. That distinction belongs to satellite TV provider EchoStar Communications Inc., which has garnered about 45 percent of the North American DVR market, compared with 38 percent for TiVo..."

heh heh ;)

[Geronimo]

Good point Nick. I see lots of Tivo articles. Some mention Replay but the inteegrated units---and particualrly those made by the marlet leader are hardly ever mentioned. Heck even if you HATE the unitrs you would think they would be mentioned.

[Randy_B]

It all comes down to an active AND good PR Dept. Tivo obviously understands that and they understand it well. E* never has?? I have never understood that philosophy. E* was certainly built off word of mouth but that can only take you so far. Even the master of this art, Hersheys advertises and promotes now (very first commercial didn't air until '82). E* is a fairly big company now but they have nearly zero visibility on the national scene. I have written letters to Red Herring and CNet after seeing their reviews of Tivo and Replay asking why the E* products were not mentioned. A reply back from the editorial team said they had no idea E* had such equipment (CNet has now reviewed the 501). These are both significant media outlets for the technology community and the fact they had no idea of E* presence in the field speaks volumes.

E* needs to leap into the present and promote nationally.

[lee635]

This is a good example of a favorite saying from one of my first bosses, "You can be a workhorse, or you can be a showhorse."

In this case E* is out selling units, while Tivo is busy courting reporters and celebs. And all that marketing expense allocated over a relatively small base of unit sales drives up the price of each Tivo.

[Jacob S]

Do you ever hear of anyone mentioning the Dish brand pvr?

[Curtis0620]

And how much of a head start did E* have? D* just recently partnered with TiVo.

[JosephF]

Bottom line is the E* is offering what most users want. A receiver that is nothing more than a digital VCR.

While this does not satisfy most of us, it shows that they have a good overall philosophy on PVR.

[Curtis0620]

No, it shows they were first. Directv with Tivo will surpass E* PVR by far by the end of this year.

[JosephF]

There have been D* Tivo boxes available since at least the introduction of the 501.

E* continues to pull in a higher percentage of the new subs than D*. So I don't buy it.

But then we're all just speculating anyway :-)

[Curtis0620]

D* had a big lapse in production between the series 1 and series 2. They lost a lot of potential sales over that period.

[Randy_B]

Originally posted by Curtis0620
No, it shows they were first. Directv with Tivo will surpass E* PVR by far by the end of this year.

I'll take that bet :goodjob: (virtual beers?)

I think the 921 also will bring in a whole new realm of subscribers to this PVR that DirecTV will not be able to counter (yet!)

The PVR philosophy is pretty much E*'s entire IRD line now. DirecTV vendors still have a slew of other models and the DirecTivo is not being pushed. I went in to a CC and a BB and had to pull info on the DirecTivo out of the reps. They were woefully uninformed. Of course, teh folks at Sears weren't a lot better on the 508 either, but then again, E* is not yet built upon the shoulders of major retailers.

[Cyclone]

Please don't argue on the internet. :P There are kids around here.

[Bogy]

Now that cable companies are starting to offer DVR's the interest will really start to pick up. When cable modems first became available most customers bought them from the cable company. Now every store has them, and the competition has driven down the price significantly. Will the same hold true for DVR/PVR's? The Cox page dealing with DVR's talks about using what is already on the market, and not waiting for their boxes to become available. I believe that as cable companies promote them they will become more accepted. After all, a lot more people have cable than DBS, so the market is much larger and can have a more significant impact on the supply. I would think the question for those of you who have DBS is, will the increased market have an impact on your cost and quality of equipment?

[Jacob S]

Perhaps when the cable companies start using a lot more DVR's then the price will come down because of competition and manufacturing in bulk.

[tampa8]

Dish Network PR? They have NONE. Word of mouth works because I bought my system by that method - but you have to wonder how many more subs they could have with better PR. The Directv comercials blow awyay anything Dish has done. They had a brief campaign in Tampa exploiting the non-carriage of Sun Network sports on TWC, but have not even done a good job of that. (Still not carried on TWC by the way and the local hockey team seen on Sun will probably make the playoffs) But (there is always a "but") they have done quite well in a relatively short time anyway. Perhaps their plan was good at first, but I can't help but think they need to really turn it on, really answer the Cable ads. It also occurs to me, they may have felt that with no real name recognition at the begining, advertising by them would result in people buying a Sat system, but it would be a directv system.

[Geronimo]

Actually I think this isa failure of reporting. If I were writing an article about cars I would find out waht company had prodiced the most. I would not wait for their PR department to contact me.

[JeffCA]

Originally posted by tampa8
Dish Network PR? They have NONE. Word of mouth works because I bought my system by that method - but you have to wonder how many more subs they could have with better PR. The Directv comercials blow awyay anything Dish has done.

Yet Dish still signs up over twice as many subs each quarter as Direct does... Sounds like whatever Dish is doing, it's working quite well!

[Bill R]

Originally posted by Bogy
Now that cable companies are starting to offer DVR's the interest will really start to pick up.

That will only happen when they start getting them stable. Our local cable company has rolled out DVRs twice and pulled them all because of software problems. The now are saying that they will have them available by this summer and are going to have Motorola boxes instead of the SA Explorer 8000 boxes that they had before. If anything, I think the problems that the cable companies have had rolling out DVRs has helped the DBS companies sell more PVRs. The cable companies have another problem too. With the high cost of the set set boxes they can not afford to make the DVR service free (as DISH Network has done). Not only will cable subscribers have to pay for rental of the digital set top box they will have to pay additional for the ability to record. The local cable company has not finalized their plans yet but they are estimating that a set top box with DVR service will cost about $10 a month.

[Curtis0620]

Originally posted by JeffCA


Yet Dish still signs up over twice as many subs each quarter as Direct does... Sounds like whatever Dish is doing, it's working quite well!

Stretching it a bit aren't we? They are not signing up over twice as many subs each quarter. D* had over 250,000 net new subs for the 4th quarter. Will E* have 500,000? No, not even close, they are projected to be about 300,000 to 315,000.

[lee120]

that was my post on tivocommunity.com :mad: :D http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1026550#post1026550

[alv]

E* has made profits as well, D hasn't. Hard to say D has the better model.

[Jerry 42]

I have the Dish service and a stand alone Tivo. They work well together but it's the TiVo "season pass" and "wish list" options that made me get TiVo. I will get a HD recorder and it looks like it would be a Dish 921 to record special HD programs - because there is no TiVo HD recorder for now. If a Dish recorder had the season pass and wish list options I would not need TiVo but it does not seem like Dish will offer these recording option any time soon.
I am offen away on location so these option that allow me to record even when the program air schedule changes are very important to me.
In short I do not think that that the Dish service, the Dish PVR and TiVo are the same products. Each has its points but they are not the same points.
Just my 2 cents.

[marko]

The $5.00/$13.00 fee makes a big difference, I think. I know averaging that out to a daily average is only like 20 cents a day or something..., but you know what, when I buy something, I want it to be completely paid for. I don't want to pay any monthly fee. I know I am missing out on some great tivo features by going with a PVR 501, and I know if I did some math, a dual tuner directivo would make sense...... I just don't like it is all. If they could come up with some lifetime fee of like $100, then things would be different, but is that even an option now?

And I also think there are a good many people out there like me who don't like the idea of paying a monthly fee for a TIVO services.

Not that this really relates, I just think if they came up with a better pricing strategy, tivo's would sell better. I would probably make the switch.

[Jerry 42]

The TiVo Stand Alone ("SA") has a lifetime service option of $249 which will be going up to $ 299 soon. Of couse that's the lifetime of the the machine (the machines can be fixed) or the lifetime of the TiVo company. I do not think there is a lifetime Directv-Tivo package because the D-Tivo can only use the Directv sat as imput source and there is no Directv lifetime package.
Note the SA can use Dish, OTA, cable or Directv as imput source.
No I do not have stock in TiVo I just find it fits my needs.

[spanishannouncetable]

I think the more interesting numbers would be the ones showing active subscribers using all these boxes.

Echostar can inflate their numbers by using units SHIPPED or MANUFACTURED all they like, but how many Dishplayer owners have given up in disgust and trashed them or sold them to Canadians for pirate service (when they work)?
How many are still in use ?
How many 501/508's have failed, been RMA'ed and recycled ?
How many total E* PVR's are still in service, compared to SA TiVos with cable/E* receivers/D* receivers & DirecTiVos ?

Inquiring minds want to know :)

[tampa8]

Originally posted by marko
The $5.00/$13.00 fee makes a big difference, I think. I know averaging that out to a daily average is only like 20 cents a day or something..., but you know what, when I buy something, I want it to be completely paid for. I don't want to pay any monthly fee.

I'll bet many people feel that way when given the choice.

[Bogy]

Originally posted by Bill R
That will only happen when they start getting them stable. Our local cable company has rolled out DVRs twice and pulled them all because of software problems. The now are saying that they will have them available by this summer and are going to have Motorola boxes instead of the SA Explorer 8000 boxes that they had before. If anything, I think the problems that the cable companies have had rolling out DVRs has helped the DBS companies sell more PVRs. The cable companies have another problem too. With the high cost of the set set boxes they can not afford to make the DVR service free (as DISH Network has done). Not only will cable subscribers have to pay for rental of the digital set top box they will have to pay additional for the ability to record. The local cable company has not finalized their plans yet but they are estimating that a set top box with DVR service will cost about $10 a month.
Dang, I didn't realize that Dish was giving their PVR's away free now. I thought they still charged for equipment like that and then wanted you to sign up for a certain amount of programming as well. I didn't realize they were now giving the equipment away and not charging a monthly fee anymore either. :rolleyes: And I guess all that bitching and whining I have seen from people who owned Dish PVR's was all in my imagination as well. Only cable would ever release equipment that had any bugs in it. :rolling: Especially buggy software. :lol: I guess you didn't read the rest of my post which commented on how Cox had delayed release of their PVR's, as well as releasing them in limited areas to start, until they got the price down and reliability up.

That's why I keep hanging around here, to pick up on the latest in DBS. And then there's the laughs. :D

[Mike123abc]

Bogy is correct, all of the cable companies I have seen with PVRs rent them to the customers for $10/month or so. You say man that is a lot of rental fees, but if you look at it a 721 over 10 years would go by before you could save money because Dish will charge you $5/month to use it.

The DVRs that I have played with are very close to the 721 in function. Dual tuners with PiP.

Think about it would you buy a 721 or pay $10/month instead of $5/month?

Cable is slowly but surely waking up to the threat of DBS and DBS will need to take serious action soon or DBS will end up losing subscribers. The only thing saving DBS ATM in many markets is that DBS is still less expensive than cable.

[Bogy]

Look at it this way. A year and a half ago I began renting 2 digital boxes for $6.95 a month. My hope that is by the end of this year, or after about 2 years, I will be able to exchange them for 2 DVR's and pay exactly the same that I am now. If they don't work out, or if something better comes along in the next two years, I get to do the same thing, with no money out of pocket. There are a lot of people out there that would just as soon rent technology like this. At least until it becomes more mainstream. Longterm, the more widespread the technology goes, the better.

[FzyLgic]

Hmm $13.90/month for 18 months is $250, 24 months is $333.60. I paid $398 for 2 DirecTivo boxes and can sell them on e-bay for roughly what I paid at any time.... now that means little or nothing out of pocket compared to $333.60 out of pocket for cable... and thats assuming programming fees are the same, but since I get 15 more channels, a vastly superior picture and save $18/month over my previous cable bill.... that means I save an additional $432 over 2 years... hmmm $765 in my pocket .. looks like the rental market doesn't make much sense.

[Swampthing]

Until a better Dish PVR is released with "name-based" recording like TiVo has, Echostar must still worship at their altar... The way that television shows switch timeslots these days, this feature has become an absolute must-have!

No amount of Internet access, movie listings, weather reports, blah, blah, can compare... you can get all that elsewhere... but without "name-based" recording, your Dish receiver is a slave to the timeslot you pick each week.

...(unless you have the joint MS-Echostar Dishplayer product of course!)

[Randy_B]

We all keep forgetting that Tivo is actually magic :rolleyes:. I am sure Tivo intuitively knew that only CBS was going to bump their programming to show President Bush this past Wed evening and that NFL games run over 30 minutes one week and 20 minutes the next!!! I am sure it was also great that Tivo knew that Alias would actually be on 50 minutes later than the listed time in the guide after the Super Bowl. :confused:

Taking 3 or 4 minutes on Sun morning to look through the weekly TV guide quickly ensures my feeble inferior time based 721 and 501 have not missed any shows so far. Of course that works out to almost 3 and 1/2 hrs of my life lost to reading the TV guide over the course of the year. Arrgghh! :D

ALL PVRs are far from the ideal. Each has it benefits jsut as each provider has their + and -.

[Mark Holtz]

I look at it this way....

In August, 2001, when I told the local cable company to take a blankity blank with their customer service and refused to pay for one last week of service. (I even sent back a letter with the bill, along with a letter to the corporate office and the local GM, saying that if they wish to even ATTEMPT to send it to collections, that I will take full legal action. They got my point.)

At the time, the only way to get UPN/WB through Dish was through the superstations. SHIVA would not take effect until the end of the year, and three shows, Angel, Buffy, and soon-to-premiere Enterprise were on those stations. Dish's 501 was a fee-free PVR, while DirecTV's was $9.95.... a bit high to swollow.

Flash Forward to NOW. DirecTV is handling most of the DirecTivo support.... errr DirecTV with DVR at $4.95 per month. While Dish advertises a single-tuner for $269 or the 721 for $500, the HDVR2 dual-tuner is only $249 (although it boggles the mind that they stick in a 40GB hard drive when high capacity drives are only slightly more expensive).

I will be making a decision in May. By then, things would have changed again.

[Bogy]

Originally posted by FzyLgic
Hmm $13.90/month for 18 months is $250, 24 months is $333.60. I paid $398 for 2 DirecTivo boxes and can sell them on e-bay for roughly what I paid at any time.... now that means little or nothing out of pocket compared to $333.60 out of pocket for cable... and thats assuming programming fees are the same, but since I get 15 more channels, a vastly superior picture and save $18/month over my previous cable bill.... that means I save an additional $432 over 2 years... hmmm $765 in my pocket .. looks like the rental market doesn't make much sense.
YMMV. I am assuming what you mean is that DirecTV offers 15 more channels than what you received with cable. I doubt you are getting 15 more channels (at least channels I would want to watch, again YMMV) than I am with my cable company. Also, your picture may be vastly superior than what you received with your local cable company. It is indistinguishable from the signal that comes out of my digital cable box, even the dreaded analog channels. I had DirecTV, I know what the signal looks like, and it is almost as good as my good old Primestar signal, so don't bother telling me I'm fooling myself. I would again have DBS if my local cable signal were not acceptable. I also gave the $6.95 figure as a reference point. However, this is not actually what I pay due to various packages. I actually pay something like $3.95 for the first box, and $6.95 for the second. Because I also get my local and long distance phone service and internet through Cox I get other discounts. Overall, I am saving money by not having separate DBS, phone and internet bills. Exactly how much I am saving on each one is hard to say.

Again, YMMV, but in my situation, with my local Cox cable company, they are the best deal. I don't have loyalty to any particular way of getting service, as opposed to those who feel the need to prove that cable is evil in every way. I'm in favor of competition, and believe healthy competition is the best for all of us. I believe that the more people who get DVR/PVR into their homes, the better it will be for the technology as a whole in the long run.

[Randy_B]

Originally posted by Bogy
I believe that the more people who get DVR/PVR into their homes, the better it will be for the technology as a whole in the long run.

Amen. The numbers need to go higher in general, regardless of the brand or service provider. Buy or rent a PVR/DVR, just do it. Unfortunately, the total numbers of PVR/DVR in the general market is not nearly high enought to protect it from the media moguls who want to kill it and have the money to buy key members Congress to do their dirty work. Only millions and millions of active users can hope to keep the technology viable and available.

[BobMurdoch]

I think the point is that since 2000, E* has been increasing market share at the expense of D*. Yes they both still growing, but E* is growing faster.